[An4ximandros]

The Dreamscape was a perfect solution to the dialogue masses that would build up during WiH P1, I suggest you guys keep it and keep refining it, while considering moving some info/comments to missions, but keeping the important stuff on the 'Scape. Also, I disagree with the notion of moving in the dream being bad, I think it adds something to the game, I do suggest that you increase the speed on the dummy craft you fly on the mission though, even after shunting all power to the engines it still feels a bit slow.

[Gray113]

Again, seems like it's a "can't please everybody" scenario.

Don't try to please everyone.

Keep doing exactly what you are doing because you guys are awesome

[Spoon]

It's like I can't even disagree more with Vidmaster and SF-Junky.
'Standard combat missions', we've had those. We've had like a hunderd of those now. They've become boring, dull. Saying that Act 3 is lesser because it lacks 'standard' missions is insanity.

It reminds me of this one comment I read on a review of Sol Exodus.

To be fair, this is precisely why the Space Sim genre has died off. I’m sure I’m not the first one to say or think this, but when you’re strapped into a space fighter/bomber, your options for interacting with the game world are very limited. You’re either on a seek and destroy mission, a scan suspicious cargo / it’s a trap / now you can seek and destroy mission, or a babysitting mission.

This part of that comment stuck with me. Especially since I read it shortly after Axem released JAD 2.21. Who's very existence proves this guy wrong. And now here we have Act 3 of WiH that again proves this person wrong. The space sim genre is innovating full speed in its mission design.
Act 3 has you infiltrate a convoy, rigging it to blow. Making it all go down in an incredible blaze of fire. And it gives you multiple ways to go about it.
Then you stealth your way into an enemy staging ground and have to carefully monitor the communications to correctly identify and then eliminate a high ranking offical. But you can also hack large defensive beam cannons to just blow the **** out of the Elder.
After that you have to prevent a large asteroid habitat from being warped into Earth's orbit by either flying your capital ship into the asteroid and blowing it the **** up. Or securing the area in a sweet capital ship battle and sending in marines to take over the command center.

Holy **** are you still with me? These three missions alone give the player more options and innovation than the whole of Act 1 and 2 combined. And I haven't even mentioned the Dreamscape hub yet!
But it doesn't even stop there, no it just gets even better. Holy ****s to the wall, what is this madness.

The next three missions are unbelievable in their FREDing. Axem and Battuta are like the modern day Muramasa and Masamune (if you don't know who those two are, look it up you uncultured swine), crafting masterwork after masterwork.
Mission 21 has you affect a BoE like no one has ever done before. You aren't doing 'standard' **** like disarming beam turrets and intercepting bombers. We've all done those a hunderd ****ing times already. (All those missions didn't suddenly vanish over night, you can play them any time of the day if you feel like playing 'a standard combat mission'.) No instead, you hit tactical important targets that swing the balance of the capital ship battle in your favor. All the while you gather 'resources' for the final killing blow against the enemy Flagship.
The sheer FREDing scope of this mission is unrivaled and the execution of it is excellent. You can approach this mission succesfully in so many ways its staggering.
You can even choose to never leave stealth yourself and just direct the battle to a good conclusion from the sidelines. ****ing glorious.

Then mission 22 is Tower defense in Freespace Mother****er. Holy **** mang, this is just too stronk. Axem has done **** Nobody has ever done before. He created a complete and working interface to deploy your tankturrets and it all works. Pushing the Freespace open engine beyond its limits!

And then mission 23 is just... mind blowing. It lasts a good 40 minutes but unlike the disaster of a last mission that WCS had, this was nothing short of an amazing trip. I was flabbergasted after playing through this the first time. It intrigued and creeped me out at the same time. Today I played it again to check something that changed during the beta and release and found myself looking at the ingame clock going "what the hell, im 30 minutes in already? It felt like 5". That mission just graps you and doesn't let go until the debriefing. The FREDing, the sound and music usage, the excellent vocals and writing is just unmatched by Anything ever released in the Freespace community. Hands down.

I was one of the bigger critics of Acts 1 and 2. I wasn't very fond of how 'standard' the gameplay was in some places and how often you were railroaded to a 'failure' of a mission. Act 3 has none of this and is all the better for it.

Is it flawless?
Nothing ever is.
Act 3 definitely has some issues with data overflow and indeed, the critism that it introduces a new gameplay element each mission without letting the player ease into them is very valid (And the BP team is not ignorant of this at all). But all of this only really means that you probably have to redo the missions a couple of times before you figure out how to approach it. (It requires a certain amount of concentration and intelligent thinking)
You need to be in a reading mood for BP.

tl;dr: You are entitled to your opinion, but I think your opinion is just plain wrong.
Act 3 easily exceeds Act 1 and 2. It's a bloody masterpiece.

[Axem]

I think with all these words that debate the points between "classic tried and true" vs "untested new and unusual" gameplays just shows how much passion we all have for the game. My own mantra is to make something unique every time, and sometimes unique doesn't always come off as great to everyone.

And just in regards for introducing new game elements, we did have a stealth tutorial sort of half done to ease the player in, but I felt it was a little heavy to give an elaborate tutorial for gameplay concepts that last an entire single mission. But I have some ideas that may help new players in a future patch release.

[Ravenholme]

*Words*

Spoon, I couldn't have put it better myself.

[General Battuta]

We're totally happy to get criticism about what people liked and didn't like. We always want to explore new stuff. Whenever things change we know some people will like it less and like it more - we just hope we can always offer enough to keep people interested.

One thing I thought Spoon really hit on, though, and that we're really proud of, is the fact that these missions reward a ton of replay. Even if you found them totally perplexing the first run through, think of them as a little package of brand new games to figure out. You can run through Act 3 a couple times and try different approaches.

As much as Her Finest Hour has perplexed some people, who claim it's too much like a puzzle and you have to figure out the 'intended' way to win, one of my favorite things about is that everybody's 'winning strategy' ends up quite different.

[TwentyPercentCooler]

Yeah, I gotta agree wholeheartedly with Spoon. If I just wanted to shoot stuff, there are amazing numbers of ways to do that. Heck, I suck at FREDing, but I can make a mission with stuff to shoot.

Sure, maybe stuff got a little confusing sometimes, but that's the price we pay for massive innovation. I expected a tower defense mission less than I expected the Spanish Inquisition (and nobody expects that), but after I realized what had been done, I actually had to pause for a few seconds and say to myself, "Holy ****, is this still the FSO engine? How did they DO this?"

I guess what I'm trying to say is keep being awesome, guys. Keep pushing the limits. You definitely can't please everyone, but BP is your baby.

[FIZ]

I had to replay some missions.  I think all but two.  Some of them I had to replay a lot, I even thought about how the 'after 5 mission failures the skip button comes up'... never saw it... I think it's in the debrief sometimes, and due to if one thing in my grandiose evil plan not working I would want a restart.  Was real hard on the

Spoiler:

assination

because I only had myself to blame there.   

Spoiler:

Of course the target would change ships, this isn't amateur hour 

  It was quite the achievement to make it difficult and require some trial and error without making it feel like a chore. 

I guess if I have to criticize, you never really get to see your wingman develop on a personal level on the field.  My favorite quote from r1 was something along the lines of "I'm feeling uneducated, unrefined, and decidedly unsafe."  Was it a quote from somewhere else?  I dunno.  But it worked.  It was on the attack on the logistics and I can't look the mission up ATM, but it was your wingmen being awesome for the sake of being Wargods.  I found it hard to believe that you are practically just along for the ride with the wingmen in R1 as they redefine badassery, then you are fitted into a spec ops unit with very little command experience expected to lead black ops missions.  Maybe cliche, but after the first dreamscape mission, I was expecting Kovacs to be the shot caller, thinking I would have to survive (outlive, usurp) him somehow.  I also get how you are the Nagari girl and they need you to realize your potential, but I think assuming control on the first mission was a bit... tactically unsound.  Unfortunately that would probably mean one or two missions of same ****, different day.  (rereading this post, the fact that your wingmen just GO also does enhance their image of being a detached, efficient gestalt)

I had to think in retrospect real hard about a flaw, as you guys do seem to have a respect for criticism.  The release is damn good and I don't want to be subjective.  If this was an instantaneous release (entire WiH released at once) the change in flow would have been a master stroke.  Having not played FS2 for a while having been on a Steam shopping spree, I think it would have been nice to have a 'feet wet' mission first.  Not that it should open with another escort mission.  Thinking about it for a minute, perhaps the first mission is just about right, but Laporte has too much authority.  Or perhaps I am just being critical for the sake of being critical. 

Kinda feels like hooking up with a chick from the bar.  Can't believe I don't have to pay for this.

[General Battuta]

The Act 3 wingmen are pretty badass. Not only do they run at pretty much peak human performance in terms of their in-game capabilities, but they have a fair bit of scripting to help them interpret orders and save micromanagement. For example, when you tell them to guard the Serenity in M21, instead of just looping around the ship until the bombs are flying, they'll run out and meet the incoming bombers. In M18 they'll interpret an attack order on any individual convoy ship as a chance to queue up attack orders on its neighbors.

[Ryuseiken]

True, but that's more the badassery of a well oiled machine than an elite 'band of brothers'. It fits the Fedayeen image well, but I didn't feel as personally connected to the wingmen themselves. They don't have that Martian esprit de corps that made me feel so close to the Wargods.

[General Battuta]

I think it'd be a little weird if people got too personally attached to these guys.

Speaking of which, did the fiction viewer work? It occurs to me I haven't verified that anybody actually got to read the Act 3 fiction.

[FIZ]

The fiction viewer would be Laporte's journal?  If so, then yes.

Maybe badassed was the wrong term.  They had these detached personalities in the missions, but were obviously well thought out characters.  I would bet it was a design choice.  However, in protect the Serenity example, they might be doing the right thing, but I am still used to treating orders to wingmen as stock FS2 wingmen.  If they are particularly well scripted to do something right when I order them to, maybe attach "will screen for bombers, let's get the Serenity home."  One replay was myself diving into the bomber assault, watching my wingmen execute the order perfectly, and acknowledging that I can do this from now on without having to hold any hands.

I hesitate giving suggestions, you guys put a lot of effort into the coding on a level I cannot compete with.  The following idea would throw off the balance of the Carthage mission and perhaps damage the replayability, but some chatter when the troops are idle or a (forgive incorrect term) cutscene narration (like when you are asking Ken the final questions) presenting your next orders could be implemented.

I would like to disclaim that more than likely ya'll had in-depth discussions about all of this.  If this is the case, lemme know and I will stop, desist, and discontinue this line of thought. 

Edit: Another example. 

Spoiler:

I felt I needed to assign an order to kill every Aurora by an individual pilot.  I was cruising to the station at the time so I used that time to issue the order.  I also know I had to order every individual radar dome to be destroyed.  I evolved my plan to deal with that clunker of a wingman order.

Did I mind?  No.  That was part of the fun.  Did it rob from the illusion that I was leading highly trained operatives?  Yes.  Was it too specific of an order that without being able to use voice commands I am being unreasonable considering the scope of the permutations?  More than likely.

[General Battuta]

One thing I wanted to discuss in the (still upcoming) cut content thread are the tutorials we had built for players to access from the dreamscape. We eventually cut them for time and because we felt like the existing missions did a good enough job teaching the new stuff.

There were also options in the dreamscape that you could use to remove some of the help-oriented HUD gauges.

[Vidmaster]

Seems like we can't indeed please everyone.

Yeah. I thought War in Heaven Release 1's design was perfect. Loved EVERY SINGLE second. :-)

[James Razor]

Something that bothered me for a while but i never found the time to ask:

I just browsed through the tech room and again run into the new and realy beautiful Diomedes model (which looks absolutly awesome  ) but i did ask myself, why did the alliance build a new class of ship when they allready had a somewhat similar design at hand.

I speak of the Iceni. Ok, its tables show it as a great war era ship with great war era armament, but ingame it is show with modern weapons and tbh.: I never understound why the GTVA didnt build more of it, especially after it caused them so much trouble.

[The E]

The Iceni and the Diomedes fill similar, but different roles. The Iceni is a blockade runner, built to run through heavily defended chokepoints. The Diomedes is a patrol vessel, intended for long-term independent deployment.

By the time the GTVA had an opening for a "Corvette+", they also had new weapons and doctrines, and so the Iceni design was cast aside, as it was just as complicated to change the Iceni design to fit into the slot than it would to build a new ship from scratch.

And then there's the issue with the Iceni being a design made of compromises; one just needs to look at its weapon placement to see that.

[James Razor]

Ok, i understand that. Just would have been cool to see something like the GTFf Saphah in BP. Maybee it could still serve in a similar role as SOC Base of Ops or something.

Btw.: can someone tell me if the Iceni has a fighterbay after all? I always was under the impression it did have one, but cant find it on the model nor can find any confirmation for that.

[MatthTheGeek]

What makes you think they ever got their hands on the blueprints ? It's a full-bred NTF design, remember.

The Iceni is also designed around fusion reactors, and hence wouldn't be able to power blue meson beams.

Also, the roles are entirely different. The Iceni is a node breaker and command ship designed to house the ETAK. The Diomedes is a tactically flexible strike package with hangar capabilities able to operate independently.

The Diomedes is also most likely designed to share spare parts with other new-gen Tev warships.

Should I go on ?

EDIT: damnit ninja'd

Nope, Iceni never had any kind fighterbay.

[James Razor]

What makes you think they ever got their hands on the blueprints ? It's a full-bred NTF design, remember.

The Iceni is also designed around fusion reactors, and hence wouldn't be able to power blue meson beams.

Also, the roles are entirely different. The Iceni is a node breaker and command ship designed to house the ETAK. The Diomedes is a tactically flexible strike package with hangar capabilities able to operate independently.

The Diomedes is also most likely designed to share spare parts with other new-gen Tev warships.

Should I go on ?

EDIT: damnit ninja'd

Nope, Iceni never had any kind fighterbay.

Well, damn.

Ok, without fighterbay that idea isnt all that good. But one advantage still remains: Repuation.
I mean that ship was THE target in the NTF war, and the techroom entry just boosted that. And regarding the Blueprints: the Iceni was allready under construction when the NTF Rebellion did breakout. And if the administration of the GTVA is similar to what we have today, i think there is a good chance that the blueprints where know to rest of the command personal that approves new ship designs.

I am just a bit sad that no one ever used that ship again except derelict.

Edit: Btw.: A lot of the stuff i see in the TEI seems to be true for the Iceni. For example the duarbility, speed and manouverability regarding sublight and subspace. If i would have been in charge i would have at least build one to test it properly and evaluate its capabilities. After all it DID cause the GTVA serious trouble.

[knossosfs2]

Speaking of which, did the fiction viewer work? It occurs to me I haven't verified that anybody actually got to read the Act 3 fiction.

I don't think it worked for me. After I finished the campaign I went to the tech room and looked at the intel, but nothing new was there (everything from WiH1 remained). I just restarted the campaign so I'll see whether it shows up after I finish again.