[Asuko]

So being gay hurts God? God, an omnipotent, all-powerful being that created the universe, gets hurt when Sean loves Steve.
So, like, gay is God's kryptonite!

Did I say that? F'course not. Nothing can hurt God...at least not physicly.

People are born gay and God loves everyone.
If that gay in question is a good person - heaven. Simple as that. Alltough I'm not sure if he'll get the 5 star treatment

Thinking about it a bit, God is an idea, an omnipotence. Nothing can hurt Him but this is beside the point. I don't want to argue about this statement.

This whole argument is based around the beliefs in Christianity. What of the other religions?

[karajorma]

After seeing the response the Christians got none of them have been stupid enough to claim on this thread that the world would be better off under them.

[Asuko]

Mm, well since I'm not Christian, I end up having a more worldly perspective of events.

[G0atmaster]

God loves everyone, period.  His love is the means by which we can be saved.

What kind of person someone is is completely irrelevant as far as Heaven is concerned.  Completely.  A genocidal maniac has an equal "chance" of getting into Heaven as the most charitable, philanthropic person you could possibly meet.  NO HUMAN BEING ALIVE TODAY IS "GOOD ENOUGH."  We are ALL imperfect.  The ONLY perfect man to ever grace this bright blue gem with His presence was Jesus, the Messiah, the Christ, whatever you wanna call Him.  So get the idea of "Good enough" out of your head right now, because I tell you, except for this one man, there IS no such creature, and it is by the nature of our God-given Free Will that this is so.  We could be incredibly good or incredibly bad.  He knew the risks when He made us.  He thought it was worth it.  Arguing with Him on that point is like a stream trying to rise above its source, we argue with the very thing that makes us able to reason at all.

And Mefustae,  How the HECK can you receive a gift without accepting it?  I mean, seriously, that's just common sense.  Doing what He says to qualify for His love?  He knocks on your door, you answer!  Otherwise, it's incredibly difficult to carry on a conversation!  Look at it this way.  There are 1,000,000,000,000 steps to Heaven.  Christ took 999,999,999,999 of them.  And you say God doesn't love you because you have to take a single measly step towards Him?  While He was literally tortured to death for you?

Now stop trying to poke holes in every single thing I say without putting at least a single iota of the intelligence I know you have behind it.  I'm not here to argue with blind fools, but to shed light on the path for a seeker.  If you have no interest in even giving my words an ounce of consideration, what are you still doing in this thread?

[achtung]

Why are you folks so worried about interpreting a fairy tell?

It gets us nowhere.

Of course, as long as you don't interpret hate, I have no objections.

[G0atmaster]

that kind of comment in a thread like this is what gets us nowhere.

That is what they call "flamebait."

[achtung]

that kind of comment in a thread like this is what gets us nowhere.

That is what they call "flamebait."

No!  You have uncovered my plan!

Just how I feel on the matter, feel free to say what you will.

[karajorma]

If you have no interest in even giving my words an ounce of consideration, what are you still doing in this thread?

Discussing the original topic perhaps?


I notice that no one has managed to give me an answer to which rules in the bible still apply. Trashman's answer was far to general to be of any use.

[G0atmaster]

Nah, I doubt it's that.  Notice how after most of my posts, I say that we can get back on topic if you like, yet somehow, that doesn' t quite happen...

Actually, TrashMan's answer is all we get.  Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind soul and strength.  Love others as yourself.  These are the greatest of the commandments in that order.  The real question is how far you're willing to go for that love.  I would die for my God, and I would die for the stranger down the street.  I would also kill for said stranger, but most likely only in a life-and-death situation.  I guess in that way I break rule number 2, because I'd like to think that I wouldn't kill to save my own life, unless that someone else's immediate survival depended on my own.  Although that's something I wonder about often.  Also, I don't believe that since the events in the New Testament, God would ever instruct a man to kill another man without a darn good and blatantly obvious reason (I.E. a hostage situation or some such thing).  I don't believe it's God's will for me to bomb an abortion clinic.

I'm sorry I can't be more specific than that.  But that's just it.  There are really no more rules to be followed.  We aren't "saved" by following rules, we aren't "saved" by praying x amount of times a day, we aren't "saved" by saying a set of magic words with our eyes closed and our hands folded and heads bowed.  We aren't "saved" by abstaining from sin, we aren't "saved" by avoiding the wrong words, we aren't "saved" by not having same-sex relationships, we aren't "saved" by not killing anyone, we aren't "saved" by being obedient to anyone or anything.  We are "saved" because we are loved.  We are obedient because we love.  There is no greater connection between the two than that alone.  Period.

[Asuko]

Goatmaster, no. I'd much rather not advocate any religion or be advocated to.

Regardless, do you really question why you love the Lord?

[G0atmaster]

I've questioned a lot of things concerning Christianity, but one thing I haven't is why I love the Lord.

He died for me, plain and simple.  He got up off of that big white throne of His where he could sit all high and mighty, the entire Universe at his disposal, and instead he chose to be like me, a poor, wretched man, so that He could relate to me.  That kind of love could simply not be expressed in words.  And yes, while any man can do this, none can as perfectly as He did.  And none could claim to be God like He did, at least not without backing it up, like He did.  That's why I love Him.  Why I believe, that's another matter entirely, one which I have questioned through and through.  But never why I love.  I know without a doubt the answer to that.

[karajorma]

So again I'll ask the question. How does being homosexual have any effect on how much you love God or on loving others as you love yourself?

Or are you claiming that the whole anti-homosexual thing is only being done by those who aren't true Christians?

[Ghostavo]

One thing that's always bothered me about this is...

Is it a sacrifice if you know you're going to resurrect three days later?

[Asuko]

Hmm, what would be the difference between loving God and believing Him? In order to love something, you must believe it exits. This is besides the point.

Anyway, I understand perfectly that loving God is a given. How can that be construed?

So again I'll ask the question. How does being homosexual have any effect on how much you love God or on loving others as you love yourself?

Or are you claiming that the whole anti-homosexual thing is only being done by those who aren't true Christians?

[Asuko]

One thing that's always bothered me about this is...

Is it a sacrifice if you know you're going to resurrect three days later?

It could be taken as a sacrifice if those close to the 'sacrifice' don't know he will be alive three days later. That's about as far as I can think of it as since normally, sacrifices stay dead.

[G0atmaster]

I'm not homosexual, and as such, I'm not exactly qualified to answer it from their point of view.

But my views on that are, to be blunt: How can someone who claims to love God choose to live a lifestyle so contrary to what He's all about?

That's true for any "sinful" lifestyle, whether it involves alcoholism, domestic abuse, or whatever the case may be.  But as I said before, only God can truly know a person's heart.  Other people can only judge a person based on their actions, which is why we're told not to judge people at all.  However, in loving others as ourselves, we ARE instructed to judge the person's actions.  I.E.  say I steal something, for example.  I may become disappointed in myself for stealing.  I may grow to hate the fact that I stole (whether because of the punishment it will get me or because I truly hate the fact that I stole is another matter entirely, but nonetheless).  But rarely will you find a person who says they hate themselves because they screwed up, and usually they have other problems.  You find people who hate the fact that they screwed up, but they don't hate themselves for their screwups.  "Hate the sin, not the sinner," so to speak.

As for the sacrifice:  "When the Heavens pass away, all your scars will still remain, and forever they will say, just how much You love me."

Let me list for you some of the ways in which the actions of Christ were indeed a sacrifice to Him:

First and foremost, if you had ultimate, omnipotent, uncontested power over the entire universe, how hard would it be for you to give it up?  Christ left the Heavens to be a man.  Last time I checked, God > Man.

Next, not only did He give up that, which in itself is a huge sacrifice, but He came as a poor carpenter's son, not as some grand, conquering king with an army!  He lived in humbling poverty.  He was born in a barn!  He was tempted with the same temptations anyone on Earth faces, only he never gave in, a feat which no other human being in existence has come close to achieving.

And finally, His torture and execution for crimes against men which never even took place, and crimes against God which WE commit(ted).  Make no mistake.  Christ did not want to go through with it.  He even asked God the Father to call it off if there was any other way His master plan could be fulfilled.  Yet He was obedient till death, and then some.

[G0atmaster]

and Asuko, loving God is construed by loving people.  I'm not quite sure what you're getting at there.

[jr2]

One thing that's always bothered me about this is...

Is it a sacrifice if you know you're going to resurrect three days later?

That's not quite the entire story... God actually turned His back on His Son, and placed the sins of the world upon Him (His Son).  Exactly how, I don't know, but Christ took on Himself our sins and accepted the punishment for them.  Being God, He could take this and survive.  His body was resurrected 3 days later... people's spirits don't actually cease to exist.  (Well, and neither does the body.... it just changes form.)

So again I'll ask the question. How does being homosexual have any effect on how much you love God or on loving others as you love yourself?

Or are you claiming that the whole anti-homosexual thing is only being done by those who aren't true Christians?

Matthew 19:4-6 (Amplified Bible)

4He replied, Have you never read that He Who made them from the beginning made them male and female,

    5And said, For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be united firmly (joined inseparably) to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?(A)

    6So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder (separate).

Romans 1:16-2:29 (Amplified Bible)

16For I am not ashamed of the Gospel (good news) of Christ, for it is God's power working unto salvation [for deliverance from eternal death] to everyone who believes with a personal trust and a confident surrender and firm reliance, to the Jew first and also to the Greek,

    17For in the Gospel a righteousness which God ascribes is revealed, both springing from faith and leading to faith [disclosed through the way of faith that arouses to more faith]. As it is written, The man who through faith is just and upright shall live and shall live by faith.(A)

    18For God's [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth and make it inoperative.

    19For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them.

    20For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],(B)

    21Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and [a]godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.

    22Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].

    23And by them the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for and represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles.

    24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their [own] hearts to sexual impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves [abandoning them to the degrading power of sin],

    25Because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed forever! Amen (so be it).(C)

    26For this reason God gave them over and abandoned them to vile affections and degrading passions. For their women exchanged their natural function for an unnatural and abnormal one,

    27And the men also turned from natural relations with women and were set ablaze (burning out, consumed) with lust for one another--men committing shameful acts with men and suffering in their own [b]bodies and personalities the inevitable consequences and penalty of their wrong-doing and going astray, which was [their] fitting retribution.

    28And so, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing, God gave them over to a base and condemned mind to do things not proper or decent but loathsome,

    29Until they were filled (permeated and saturated) with every kind of unrighteousness, iniquity, grasping and covetous greed, and malice. [They were] full of envy and jealousy, murder, strife, deceit and treachery, ill will and cruel ways. [They were] secret backbiters and gossipers,

    30Slanderers, hateful to and hating God, full of insolence, arrogance, [and] boasting; inventors of new forms of evil, disobedient and undutiful to parents.

    31[They were] without understanding, conscienceless and faithless, heartless and loveless [and] merciless.

    32Though they are fully aware of God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them themselves but approve and applaud others who practice them.

   
Romans 2
 1THEREFORE YOU have no excuse or defense or justification, O man, whoever you are who judges and condemns another. For in posing as judge and passing sentence on another, you condemn yourself, because you who judge are habitually practicing the very same things [that you censure and denounce].

    2[But] we know that the judgment (adverse verdict, sentence) of God falls justly and in accordance with truth upon those who practice such things.

    3And do you think or imagine, O man, when you judge and condemn those who practice such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape God's judgment and elude His sentence and adverse verdict?

    4Or are you [so blind as to] trifle with and presume upon and despise and underestimate the wealth of His kindness and forbearance and long-suffering patience? Are you unmindful or actually ignorant [of the fact] that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repent ([c]to change your mind and inner man to accept God's will)?

    5But by your callous stubbornness and impenitence of heart you are storing up wrath and indignation for yourself on the day of wrath and indignation, when God's righteous judgment (just doom) will be revealed.

    6For He will render to every man according to his works [justly, as his deeds deserve]:(D)

    7To those who by patient persistence in well-doing [[d]springing from piety] seek [unseen but sure] glory and honor and [[e]the eternal blessedness of] immortality, He will give eternal life.

    8But for those who are self-seeking and self-willed and disobedient to the Truth but responsive to wickedness, there will be indignation and wrath.

    9[And] there will be tribulation and anguish and calamity and constraint for every soul of man who [habitually] does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek (Gentile).

    10But glory and honor and [heart] peace shall be awarded to everyone who [habitually] does good, the Jew first and also the Greek (Gentile).

    11For God shows no partiality [[f]undue favor or unfairness; with Him one man is not different from another].(E)

    12All who have sinned without the Law will also perish without [regard to] the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged and condemned by the Law.

    13For it is not merely hearing the Law [read] that makes one righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Law who will be held guiltless and acquitted and justified.

    14When Gentiles who have not the [divine] Law do instinctively what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, since they do not have the Law.

    15They show that the essential requirements of the Law are written in their hearts and are operating there, with which their consciences (sense of right and wrong) also bear witness; and their [moral] [g]decisions (their arguments of reason, their condemning or approving [h]thoughts) will accuse or perhaps defend and excuse [them]

    16On that day when, as my Gospel proclaims, God by Jesus Christ will judge men in regard to the things which they conceal (their hidden thoughts).(F)

    17But if you bear the name of Jew and rely upon the Law and pride yourselves in God and your relationship to Him,

    18And know and understand His will and discerningly approve the better things and have a sense of what is vital, because you are instructed by the Law;

    19And if you are confident that you [yourself] are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, and [that

    20You are] a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the childish, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and truth--

    21Well then, you who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you teach against stealing, do you steal (take what does not really belong to you)?

    22You who say not to commit adultery, do you commit adultery [are you unchaste in action or in thought]? You who abhor and loathe idols, do you rob temples [do you appropriate to your own use what is consecrated to God, thus robbing the sanctuary and [j]doing sacrilege]?

    23You who boast in the Law, do you dishonor God by breaking the Law [by stealthily infringing upon or carelessly neglecting or openly breaking it]?

    24For, as it is written, The name of God is maligned and blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you! [The words to this effect are from your own Scriptures.](G)

    25Circumcision does indeed profit if you keep the Law; but if you habitually transgress the Law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision.

    26So if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be credited to him as [equivalent to] circumcision?

    27Then those who are physically uncircumcised but keep the Law will condemn you who, although you have the code in writing and have circumcision, break the Law.

    28For he is not a [real] Jew who is only one outwardly and publicly, nor is [true] circumcision something external and physical.

    29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and [true] circumcision is of the heart, a spiritual and not a literal [matter]. His praise is not from men but from God.

[G0atmaster]

meh, I like the language of the NIV better, but that all pretty much hits the nail on the head.

[jr2]

Yah, well, if you click the link in the "author" tag, once you are in the site, you can switch to the version you like... personally, I can understand the KJV, but that's 2-300 yr old English, and I didn't want to inflict anyone with that.

EDIT: and yeah, NIV is usually pretty easy to understand.... if anyone is scratching their heads, click the link, select New International Version, and click "Update", that might help.. there are also a ton of other versions.  (Lots of different languages, too!  )