Hard Light Productions Forums
Archived Boards => The Archive => The Unification War => Topic started by: Locutus of Borg on June 20, 2010, 06:52:21 am
-
Are there still no plans to add VA to this mod. I think that that's the only thing it's missing. It's one of the few mods that draws me in atmospherically even though I have to press f4 all the time just to see the messages without having my head blown off :S
-
The time required is really prohibitive -- its been over two years since the Warzone VA started and it is only now nearly ready for release. VA of 28 missions will take forever. Thank you for the compliments, however. :)
-
Don't let that one tough experience ruin it for you. Even a partial VA would be preferable to none at all. I'd be willing to help if need be.
Why not give it a shot, if it works it works, and if not then forget about it.
-
I don't know about the TVWP team, but if I start a job I'm inclined to finish it.
-
sorry! what's VA for?
-
Voice Acting.
-
I think you could find a lot of interested people.
-
I think you seriously underestimate the difficulty of voice-acting a campaign. :) It takes a lot of work. And even if it's completed successfully, it takes a lot of time. There's a reason so few campaigns have been voice-acted.
-
Yes. It will take years.
-
: (
-
Alright, so just out of curiosity, could any of you guys with previous experience in the VA process explain us what is exactly the reason why it's so complicated to do? Why does it takes so long? Could you please tell us what are the bottlenecks, and the difficult parts? What programs do you use? Do's and dont's?
I'm obviously not in a position to do anything related to voice acting, considering I couldn't pronounce a word in English even if my life depended on it, and my accent is absolutely inescapable. But I would like to know (and I'm sure other, better suited persons would like to know too) why is the voice acting process considered so frustrating and time consuming, and if there is anything that can be done to improve it.
-
Recruiting and casting separate actors for each part is time-consuming, especially because most actors cannot product quality lines with the equipment or talents they have. This limits your potential actors to a small pool of busy semipros. Usually it is wise to go to semipro VA communities and hunt for work-for-free talent there.
Each actor will need to be supplied with their lines, a contextual script, and pronunciation guides, as well as background on their character and the setting.
Once parts are cast (months, probably), you have to stay on your actor's cases to get all their lines in. Some will drop out. Others will produce lines of unacceptable quality. Retakes will have to be done, of individual lines or whole parts.
Once lines are actually in your hands, they must all be normalized, cleaned, and post-processed in Audacity, adding radio noise and message beeps as appropriate. They must all be properly named, added into missions, and checked in-game for audible volume.
Like all projects it takes twice as long as expected even when well-planned.
Additionally, you (the project leader) will leave it hanging for weeks or months at a time as you become busy with real life.
-
Ok. So:
Recruiting and casting separate actors for each part is time-consuming, especially because most actors cannot product quality lines with the equipment or talents they have. This limits your potential actors to a small pool of busy semipros. Usually it is wise to go to semipro VA communities and hunt for work-for-free talent there.
Each actor will need to be supplied with their lines, a contextual script, and pronunciation guides, as well as background on their character and the setting.
So if we had a pool of "local" talents this could theoretically be skipped almost completely, as they would have already played the campaign and so they would know the context.
How did we get the current pool of talents in modelling, texturing and fredding? Can this same process be adapted and used in this case?
Once parts are cast (months, probably), you have to stay on your actor's cases to get all their lines in. Some will drop out. Others will produce lines of unacceptable quality. Retakes will have to be done, of individual lines or whole parts.
Yes, I can see it's unavoidable. Perhaps separating the whole job in batches that could be completed faster would reduce the delay on getting that feedback?
Once lines are actually in your hands, they must all be normalized, cleaned, and post-processed in Audacity, adding radio noise and message beeps as appropriate. They must all be properly named, added into missions, and checked in-game for audible volume.
Yes, I have that program, but I haven't really used it much. Is there any way to automate that process? Let's say, does Audacity support some way of scripting at least the most basic and repetitive of those tasks (like message beeps)?
-
I have a pool of local talent on tap, but it's very small (though very reliable.) Much of Blue Planet was done locally on HLP. It's not enough to do justice to a full campaign with any degree of dramatic requirement.
In effect voice acting attempts are already done in batches already. Actors are identified and roles are sent at them. Rarely is every role sent out at once.
I doubt the process can be automated. While it would be easy to run a batch normalize, every voice is different, and so is every line. Human treatment of each individual file is necessary for optimum outcomes.
-
I look at it this way, let's finish the campaign. THEN we can worry about getting it voice acted.
With that said, IMO, a campaign of this magnitude (assuming it turns out as good as we all expect) SHOULD be worth the effort.
-
I actually think the basic execution of TVWP is faulty and that the campaign as it stands needs a major rework to be really enjoyable. The problem lies as much in the gameplay mechanics and design decisions as the FREDding. Somewhere along the line somebody made the mistake of confusing a primitive atmosphere with primitive decisions and design techniques in the actual execution.
I haven't checked to see how much the polish job on Act II and III has helped.
YMMV of course.
-
How do you mean?
-
I don't really want to go on a rant here because I think there's new talent coming in that may be able to fix things up.
-
With that said, IMO, a campaign of this magnitude (assuming it turns out as good as we all expect) SHOULD be worth the effort.
I disagree, actually... the deciding factor should be a campaign's quality, not its size. ST:R, BP:AoA, and Derelict are all quality campaigns that deserve their voice-acting; and they range in size from 18 missions to over 50. On the other hand, Second Great War Part II has more missions than any of them, and nobody is arguing that it should be voice-acted based on its length.
I actually think the basic execution of TVWP is faulty and that the campaign as it stands needs a major rework to be really enjoyable. The problem lies as much in the gameplay mechanics and design decisions as the FREDding. Somewhere along the line somebody made the mistake of confusing a primitive atmosphere with primitive decisions and design techniques in the actual execution.
I tend to agree, actually. TVWP bit off way more than it could handle, overreached in many areas, and suffered greatly for it. I disagree that the features like primitive sensors etc. will ipso facto lead to poor gameplay, but I do agree that the execution is very rough and could be improved.
Anyway, as Battuta said, TVWP will have a new crew after Chapter 1 is out, and they might be able to do something interesting with it. We'll see what happens.
-
Bah', you disappoint me guys, I was actually expecting another fight from you two. :p Just kidding.
I don't really want to go on a rant here because I think there's new talent coming in that may be able to fix things up.
Oh, thank you! You didn't had to... Oh, wait, you are NOT talking about me...? Oh... :(
:lol:
-
Bah', you disappoint me guys, I was actually expecting another fight from you two. :p Just kidding.
Why? I only argue with Battuta when he's wrong. :p
Oh, wait, you are NOT talking about me...? Oh...
Hmm, are you volunteering to join TVWP? ;)
-
I disagree, actually... the deciding factor should be a campaign's quality, not its size. ST:R, BP:AoA, and Derelict are all quality campaigns that deserve their voice-acting; and they range in size from 18 missions to over 50. On the other hand, Second Great War Part II has more missions than any of them, and nobody is arguing that it should be voice-acted based on its length.
By "magnitude", I meant potential for quality. You know with it being a very unique campaign story idea and what not. I realize my other post wasn't very clear, but yeah, I didn't mean to be talking about size.
-
Fair enough. :) We did spend a lot of time on TVWP's story, but we weren't able to execute the campaign to the level the story demanded...
...for Chapter 1 anyway. Hopefully some new blood might be able to change things for Chapter 2. ;)
-
Very large post ahead:
Bah', you disappoint me guys, I was actually expecting another fight from you two. :p Just kidding.
Why? I only argue with Battuta when he's wrong. :p
Ha ha! It's just that it so looked like Battuta was spoiling for a fight with you. :lol:
Oh, wait, you are NOT talking about me...? Oh...
Hmm, are you volunteering to join TVWP? ;)
Hmmm... Are you offering me an assignment in the team? ;)
I'm currently learning modelling and fredding. When I feel ready I'll surely post something for the community to download and review in the proper forum. So no, I'm not ready yet, but I'll surely be there to help as soon as I can.
Here are some models I've been working on to practice:
Heavy fighter/Interceptor (own concept, think Terran Seth fighter):
(http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7030/71700013.jpg)
(http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/7988/47190436.jpg)
(http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/3262/59000333.jpg)
Strike bomber (own concept, think Zeus):
(http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/8193/30535661.jpg)
(http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/3674/83283152.jpg)
Interceptor (not modelled yet, shamelessly copied inspired on the hull of the FMA IA 63 Pampa/AT-63 Pampa II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMA_IA_63_Pampa)):
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/4921/fconcept.jpg)
Apollo bomber (based on this early concept (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/images/Concept_gtf_apollo_3.jpg) of the Apollo from Volition):
(http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/2554/ab1rq.jpg)
(http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/9505/ab2i.jpg)
Now, they all need some work yet, they are all in separate geometries, and I feel like redoing some of those models from scratch. But that's where I'm at so far.
-------------------------
Fair enough. :) We did spend a lot of time on TVWP's story, but we weren't able to execute the campaign to the level the story demanded...
...for Chapter 1 anyway. Hopefully some new blood might be able to change things for Chapter 2. ;)
Well, there are a lot of glitches and bugs, which is inexcusable considering the time it took, but I don't understand why everybody feels things like primitive sensors, limited ammo and the flight model ruined the mod. Those are actually the things that set this mod apart from other mods, and give it that early space wars feeling that it's supposed to have. It also helps balancing, because it finally means Alpha 1 can't do everything by himself.
I see things to be fixed, but nothing to be regretful or ashamed of so far. This is an excellent mod.
-
The Apollo bomber looks good.
-
Shots from more angles please.
Also whens the full Act2 out then :nervous:
-
Also whens the full Act2 out then :nervous:
Eight days ago. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=69901.0)
-
Gah, i thought it were a demo.......
The TVWP team has released a new demo of Chapter 1, including 9 new missions that are from Act II!
Your wordings confuse me Administrato-bots :rolleyes:
-
Very large post ahead:
Bah', you disappoint me guys, I was actually expecting another fight from you two. :p Just kidding.
Why? I only argue with Battuta when he's wrong. :p
Ha ha! It's just that it so looked like Battuta was spoiling for a fight with you. :lol:
Actually my opinions are based off civil discussion with Goob, so in a sense I was supporting him (pre-emptively.)
Well, there are a lot of glitches and bugs, which is inexcusable considering the time it took, but I don't understand why everybody feels things like primitive sensors, limited ammo and the flight model ruined the mod. Those are actually the things that set this mod apart from other mods, and give it that early space wars feeling that it's supposed to have. It also helps balancing, because it finally means Alpha 1 can't do everything by himself.
I see things to be fixed, but nothing to be regretful or ashamed of so far. This is an excellent mod.
Nobody has said that things like primitive sensors, limited ammo, or the flight model ruined the mod.
-
I see another problem with TVWP voicing: $Callsign tags.
They would have to go from everywhere but non-voiced parts (like assignment lists) in case of VA being made.
-
So you didn't liked the Interceptor and the Heavy fighter. :( Those are actually my favourite ones.
Anyway, here's a video showing the details from many angles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uxjmBzVaSk
So far, only the cockpit and the front part have been merged into a single object.
I'm particularly nervous at this joint:
(http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/326/jointh.jpg)
That's perhaps the worst part of the mesh.
-
So you didn't liked the Interceptor and the Heavy fighter. :( Those are actually my favourite ones.
Don't jump to conclusions. :) I intend to comment more thoroughly later.
-
Very large post ahead:
Bah', you disappoint me guys, I was actually expecting another fight from you two. :p Just kidding.
Why? I only argue with Battuta when he's wrong. :p
Ha ha! It's just that it so looked like Battuta was spoiling for a fight with you. :lol:
Actually my opinions are based off civil discussion with Goob, so in a sense I was supporting him (pre-emptively.)
Pst! Don't take me too seriously. :p I'm a Cordovan, I'm joking 90% of the time. And when I'm not joking, trust me, it's quite apparent.
Well, there are a lot of glitches and bugs, which is inexcusable considering the time it took, but I don't understand why everybody feels things like primitive sensors, limited ammo and the flight model ruined the mod. Those are actually the things that set this mod apart from other mods, and give it that early space wars feeling that it's supposed to have. It also helps balancing, because it finally means Alpha 1 can't do everything by himself.
I see things to be fixed, but nothing to be regretful or ashamed of so far. This is an excellent mod.
Nobody has said that things like primitive sensors, limited ammo, or the flight model ruined the mod.
You didn't. I've read some complains about that (particularly the sensors).
-
My specific complaint about the primitive sensors thing is that it doesn't make sense. Why would space fighters have combat avionics on par with your average Spitfire? Lead-computing gunsights have been around since the Korean War (or earlier), why did the builders of highly advanced spce combat craft suddenly forget how to make them? Second, sensor detection in space is ridiculously easy when using infrared, making stealth against passive sensors close to impossible (unless you're hiding in front of something that is significantly hotter than you, the Sun, for example). So, why is it that I don't have the basic avionics nearly every plane flying in today's skies has by default? It's just a huge, and I mean gargantuan, immersion breaker for me, as my suspension of disbelief just doesn't go that far. TVTropes calls this an Interface Screw (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InterfaceScrew), which in this case leads directly to Fake Difficulty (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty).
-
Yes, especially that mission where we're forced to pilot Shrikes, which despite the LR being one of the wealthiest nations in Sol can't equip their fighters with decent targeting systems.
-
I'm currently learning modelling and fredding. When I feel ready I'll surely post something for the community to download and review in the proper forum. So no, I'm not ready yet, but I'll surely be there to help as soon as I can.
Excellent. :yes:
Well, there are a lot of glitches and bugs, which is inexcusable considering the time it took, but I don't understand why everybody feels things like primitive sensors, limited ammo and the flight model ruined the mod. Those are actually the things that set this mod apart from other mods, and give it that early space wars feeling that it's supposed to have. It also helps balancing, because it finally means Alpha 1 can't do everything by himself.
I see things to be fixed, but nothing to be regretful or ashamed of so far. This is an excellent mod.
Thanks. :)
Gah, i thought it were a demo.......
The TVWP team has released a new demo of Chapter 1, including 9 new missions that are from Act II!
Your wordings confuse me Administrato-bots :rolleyes:
It is a demo. It's the second demo we've released. :p The full release of Chapter 1 will include all three acts.
-
I see another problem with TVWP voicing: $Callsign tags.
They would have to go from everywhere but non-voiced parts (like assignment lists) in case of VA being made.
Only in the case of the player. But yes, you're right. We'd have to call the player by his wing assignment. Fortunately, I don't think there are too many places where the player is addressed directly.
So you didn't liked the Interceptor and the Heavy fighter. :( Those are actually my favourite ones.
No, I like them. :) They definitely look interesting, as opposed to a bunch of booleaned shapes stuck together. They show promise, but they're probably not ready to be included in any mods yet. Good practice though.
My specific complaint about the primitive sensors thing is that it doesn't make sense. Why would space fighters have combat avionics on par with your average Spitfire? Lead-computing gunsights have been around since the Korean War (or earlier), why did the builders of highly advanced spce combat craft suddenly forget how to make them? Second, sensor detection in space is ridiculously easy when using infrared, making stealth against passive sensors close to impossible (unless you're hiding in front of something that is significantly hotter than you, the Sun, for example). So, why is it that I don't have the basic avionics nearly every plane flying in today's skies has by default? It's just a huge, and I mean gargantuan, immersion breaker for me, as my suspension of disbelief just doesn't go that far. TVTropes calls this an Interface Screw (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InterfaceScrew), which in this case leads directly to Fake Difficulty (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty).
These are perfectly legitimate criticisms. I can only resspond by saying our motivation was not to create Fake Difficulty, which is a pet peeve of mine as well. In fact, we tried to stay aware of this while balancing missions.
Instead, our motivation was to extrapolate the history of tech advancement. In the Great War, you acquired shields and intersystem subspace drives. In the middle of the Terran-Vasudan War, you acquire fighter-mountable subspace drives (this is our in-universe reason for why the GTEP Hermes suddenly became practical). What is a plausible tech advancement for the Unification War? Well, there's not much you can take away from a ship that has no subspace drives and no shields. We decided that targeting sensors would be a good candiate. (You could argue the same for energy weapons, but we wanted to introduce those in Chapter 2.)
-
I think that in your place I'd have tried to go for the more primitive atmospherics using techniques like Woolie's Wings mod, or even Beyond the Red Line.
-
Perhaps, but that wasn't possible when this mod was being made. (We had about 2/3 of the missions FREDded by 2006.)