[The E]

I don't think the GTVA will ever go for something that has superior performance and high maintenance costs when they can get good performance and long endurance.

The thing is, UEF ships are built with the implicit assumption that depot/shipyard level maintenance is just a single intrasystem jump away. GTVA ships on the other hand are built to operate away from major bases for months at a time; I would argue that the two MOs are absolutely incompatible. Even if UEF-style fighters or gunships are restricted to elite squadrons, the risk that these ships will be down when you really need them is probably far too high for a sane GTVA commander to take.

[Phantom Hoover]

You also need to remember that having ultra buff UEF ships in your fleet has a certain constant overhead that makes it uneconomical to keep only a small number of them. Someone has to maintain the factories for all the specialised parts, someone has to know how to maintain them:

[General Battuta]

The GTVA probably has aggressor squadrons and simulations gaming out the utility of UEF ships and tactics even now.

[Luis Dias]

The GTVA probably has aggressor squadrons and simulations gaming out the utility of UEF ships and tactics even now.

Imagine a mission where you are flying all these alternative squadrons and tactics against the Shivans... in some classic FS2 mission within a simulator. That'd be dope.

[crizza]

I'm asking myself:
The loss of Capella was a blow for the GTVA, with all the lost infrastructure etc.
With the large logistic vessels travelling between supply depots and the task forces, does the GTVA use large factory ships?

[IcemanFreespace]

There's too much talk about logistics in this thread. Canonically, they did what they needed to support the military operations. You could assume your way even into cutting the existing military, but historically, military developments always found a way into the battle. 

[crizza]

Yes, but the UEF simply cannot fight for a prolonged period of time, because they need to return to their supplydepots to load new torpedos, railgun/massdriver/whatever-ammo.
Though it would be funny to see a Karuna running out of ammo just once

[General Battuta]

There's too much talk about logistics in this thread. Canonically, they did what they needed to support the military operations. You could assume your way even into cutting the existing military, but historically, military developments always found a way into the battle.

What, no

[IcemanFreespace]

Come on. There is no consistency at all, no clear structure of how resources and logistics work. They only used it sparringly to tell a part of a story sometimes. At other times, it seemes like a non factor. BP takes it a step further but you still couldn't make any claims based off of that. I'm quite certain GTVA would use a whole bunch of UEF goodies and would find a way to support it.

[IcemanFreespace]

Yes, but the UEF simply cannot fight for a prolonged period of time, because they need to return to their supplydepots to load new torpedos, railgun/massdriver/whatever-ammo.
Though it would be funny to see a Karuna running out of ammo just once

Not in 10 days. But in a reasonable ammount of time they would find ways, they would adjust. They can't now because they never planned for such a thing.

[Aesaar]

Yes, but the UEF simply cannot fight for a prolonged period of time, because they need to return to their supplydepots to load new torpedos, railgun/massdriver/whatever-ammo.
Though it would be funny to see a Karuna running out of ammo just once

Not in 10 days. But in a reasonable ammount of time they would find ways, they would adjust. They can't now because they never planned for such a thing.

They can't because their ships aren't designed for it.  A UEF fleet wouldn't have survived the events of AoA.  Constantly harassed by Shivans the way the 14th BG was, they'd have run out of ammo in a matter of hours and fuel in a couple of days.

This isn't something that can be resolved with refits.  It's a fundamental issue with the way UEF ships and weapons are designed.  To turn, say, a Karuna into something with comparable endurance to a Diomedes, you'd need to change pretty much every meaningful component, from the reactor, to the thrusters, to the weapons.  You'd basically be designing a new ship.

Come on. There is no consistency at all, no clear structure of how resources and logistics work. They only used it sparringly to tell a part of a story sometimes. At other times, it seemes like a non factor.

Cite examples.  As far as I can tell, logistics have been an issue in BP from the start.

[Damage]

Look, I don't want to start a whole thing here, but here it is:  Logistics is important to military operations, and any good military leader will factor that into their planning for the coming campaign.  Failure to do so will usually guarantee a failure in the campaign to follow.

In short; if you can't supply your army, they're not going to last.


As regards the situation here:
The UEF has by virtue of the situation a very short supply chain.  Except for the stations under GTVA control, every resupply point for the UEF fleet is only a jump away, and their production base is in the immediate vicinity.  The GTVA has almost the opposite situation, their supplies in Sol are dependent almost entirely on the logistics ships, which have finite supplies, and their production is on the other side of Delta Serpentis, several jumps away at best.

(Side Note:  The GTA almost certainly does not have a heavy resupply capacity near the Sol-Delta Serp node; this is strategically unwise, should UEF forces make a successful push through the node.  Likely there are at least some supply points there, but most of it is either spread out in Delta Serpentis, or more likely in Beta Aquila, Vega, and Antares.)

As said, the GTVA supply situation is almost totally reliant upon the Anemoi-class ships, one of which the UEF has already captured.  (Do we have a number for how many of these are available?)  Indigenous supplies of weapons and equipment will usually be useless for GTA forces. (Though the foodstuffs will probably be kept if only for the novelty value.  Soldiers sending pictures of themselves eating actual real-live Earth food back to the family in Laramis.)  Basic electronics parts may be of use, too, however in all, this will represent a minimum of supply potential for the GTA--they will much prefer to be using their own equipment from their own resupply ships--all of which is already spec'd for use and doesn't need to be half-reverse-engineered before installation.

At the same time, the GTA is an invading force, which historically is much more costly than defense.  Unless they have several aces up their sleeves, which they would've been foolish to have held back this long, they needed to prepare ahead of time for a potentially long and violent campaign.  The 14th's successful entrance into Sol (which somebody fouled up for them in AoA) would've probably countered this dilemma, if they could've pulled it off.

All this ties back to the points made previously in this thread and forum--the difference in design philosophies between the GTA Terrans and the UEF Terrans.  To use a modern times metaphor; the GTVA is a deepwater navy, while the UEF is a littoral (coastal) navy.  Both are good at what they are designed to do, and have a little overlap in terms of purpose.  When it comes to one challenging the other on its home turf there will be advantages for each.  The metaphor breaks down a little, because in the end, they're all spaceships that can operate apparently anywhere in deep space, but bear with me here.  The essential premise seems to be the GTVA has adequate performance and long range/duration.  The UEF has very high performance potential, but short legs.


In keeping with the original premise of this thread, let's assume the GTVA wins the war.  What do they do with the remnant UEF navy?

Well, for the most part, most of it will probably stay in Sol under new management.  Almost immediately, some examples of each ship class will be taken to Fleet R&D for testing and analysis.  See what works, what doesn't.  Find out how compatible each ship is with existing GTVA systems, and what the costs of retrofitting would be.  I suspect a few of the fighter/bomber designs could be reworked to incorporate Balors or Maxim cannons, just as an example.  The cruisers and frigates would probably be retained until the end of their operational lifetime as patrol ships and defense escorts, if only because they're already built and in place.  As for the Solaris destroyers, I suspect they would be kept around by the GTVA as carrier ships, not unlike the Hecate-destroyers.  Without back-checking, I can think of no reason they couldn't be loaded with GTVA fighter designs and repair equipment.  Retrofitting them with GTVA weapons (not necessarily beams, either) could prove problematic, though.

I didn't want to make a whole long post here, but it just sort of mutated as my thoughts came up.  I haven't fully thought all out, but I'm sure somewhere on here this discussion has been had at least once already.

[IcemanFreespace]

The first part of Aesar's post, I'm obviously in agreement. The reasons are well known, you listed some.

As for the second part, the worst approach would be to retrofit and ruin the ships so beautifully made. So they aren't made for certain types of situations, sure. They would need to work around that in other ways. I saw someone speak on robots and reducing the number of people in destroyers recently. Well, if UEF needs logistics, that sure is a lot less of an obstacle than creating new pilots and warships.  They can inflict incredible pain in short amounts of time. There are enough elite pilots and vessels to be a huge pain in your butt even if you're dominant.
But it seems that there's an underlying thought here that UEF school of thought is inferior here. They were just late to the party, military wise. I view the events of WiH as tremendously successful for UEF school of thought. I can't even see a way to dispute their defensive prowess. Offensively, it's good to have a very sharp knife as a starting point, but that's another story.

[IcemanFreespace]

There are too many points to reply to, so some random thoughts.

We know precise capabilities of all GTVA and UEF spacecrafts.
We know very basic outlines of logistics of both forces.
These facts alone are enough to put credibility of logistics talk in the air.
So you're already assuming some very grim scenarios for the sake of argument, but ok. Otherwise it wouldn't be fun.

What we're talking about here is GTVA with their logistics taking over. And already the discussion is drawing to a close. Just take the superior weaponry and roll with it. Integrate as quick as you can. They have the support for UEF's short legged crafts, in many ways better than UEF has in Sol. And UEF has been incredibly successfull in a war they never prepared for in any way.

The other assumption made to keep this discussion alive is that UEF is unable to provide logistics for their ships. They do just fine for what they are made, in Sol. If requirements change, why wouldn't they rise to the challenge ? In a reasonable timeframe, obviously.

And if we assume all these worst case scenarios, in the end, I have to ask-what missions in FS2 would UEF have problems with ? And in what missions would they absolutely blitz the Shivans? With all their shortcomings and on short notice.

[AdmiralRalwood]

I can't even see a way to dispute their defensive prowess.

Other than the fact that they're losing the war?

The other assumption made to keep this discussion alive is that UEF is unable to provide logistics for their ships. They do just fine for what they are made, in Sol. If requirements change, why wouldn't they rise to the challenge ? In a reasonable timeframe, obviously.

The best way to meet that kind of change in requirements is to design an entirely new class of ship.

[IcemanFreespace]

I can't even see a way to dispute their defensive prowess.

Other than the fact that they're losing the war?

The other assumption made to keep this discussion alive is that UEF is unable to provide logistics for their ships. They do just fine for what they are made, in Sol. If requirements change, why wouldn't they rise to the challenge ? In a reasonable time frame, obviously.

The best way to meet that kind of change in requirements is to design an entirely new class of ship.

That's like saying an MMA fighter is weak because he's losing a fight against 20 armed men, who ambushed him in his sleep. UEF never planned for an invasion of their home system. Plus they were ambushed. Plus they have no experienced personnel. And they're not in an alliance with a superior alien race. Not getting run over in three days is a success in itself. Actually dragging on with the war is an immense success on their part and on the part of their ship design and philosophy which enabled them to achieve such results.
I don't get how you arrive at the second conclusion. There is no knowledge of specific requirements for maintaining a ship, or sustaining maximum readiness in a war. There is also no knowledge of UEF's capabilities of meeting new requirements (let alone GTVA's, hence my original post). They've been very successful in supporting their fleet in a scenario way worse  than what they designed it for.

[Phantom Hoover]

If you want to write your own fiction about the UEF adapting to the logistical realities of a Shivan incursion, that's fine and it could be pretty cool. Telling the BP team that they're wrong about their own setting is pretty dumb though.

[X3N0-Life-Form]

But it seems that there's an underlying thought here that UEF school of thought is inferior here.

Citation needed.

I think pretty much everybody here agrees that UEF ships are very good at what they do. The discussion here is that what they do and how they do it would be impractical outside of Sol.

I think you mentionned the usefulness of high performance crafts for elite units. I believe the problem here is that the mission profile of these units would be likely to send them behind enemy lines at some point, which we know the GTVA school of thought is better at handling. I could see it happen, with the GTVA designing its own ultra-high performance crafts that would be able to get all the parts they need from the regular supply line or something, but it does seem at odds with their current fleet doctrine.

So you're already assuming some very grim scenarios for the sake of argument, but ok.

OK, that bit made me smile a bit, I'll admit . The "grim scenarios" we are assuming are called the final parts of Freespace 2 and Age of Aquarius, but potentially without the part where 95 % of the Shivan forces' strength doesn't give a crap about us. This is, in my opinion, the kind of scenario the GTVA wants to be ready to deal with in one way or another, so I'd say it's reasonable to assume that further encounters with the Shivans would go very grim very fast.

And if we assume all these worst case scenarios, in the end, I have to ask-what missions in FS2 would UEF have problems with ? And in what missions would they absolutely blitz the Shivans? With all their shortcomings and on short notice.

Now that is something I like to think about. It's likely that the UEF would have trouble conducting extended operations in Gamma Draconis, and would be incapable of maintaining an expeditionary force in the nebula or beyond. Assuming that Capella, being 3rd Fleet HQ and all that, would be a very well-supplied system, I think early Shivan incursions, such as Sathanas #1, would be dealt with rather quickly. However, as more Shivan poor into the system and their infrastructure gets more and more damaged, they would crumble faster than the GTVA fleet.

Basically, their metaphorical flame would burn brighter and hotter, but extinguish faster, potentially too early into the evacuation.

PRE-POST ADDENDUM

There is no knowledge of specific requirements for maintaining a ship, or sustaining maximum readiness in a war.

We don't have specific numbers or anything, if that's what you are saying. What we do have is the techroom explicitly stating that the UEF fleet is taylored for high performance operations where supply is only a jump away, which bears the implication that these crafts would not last as long as the more balanced designs of the Alliance in a situation where supply is scarse. And given how immensly important logistics is said to be for the Alliance fleet, it again has implications regarding that fleet's ability to operate outside it's home system, or in a different logistics framework.

Also keep in mind that in WiH both fleets are pulling their punches. The UEF has been committed to wage a purely defensive war for 18 months, with all aggressive ops being a response to GTVA attacks (see the Meridian's ambush) until the Wargods came along. Even now, 1st fleet is maintaining that posture. On the other hand, the Tevs want Sol's infrastructure intact, which is why they haven't committed to more than one large-scale blitz operation against Earth, and hope to force the UEF into surrender rather than just destroy them.

[Damage]

And if we assume all these worst case scenarios, in the end, I have to ask-what missions in FS2 would UEF have problems with ? And in what missions would they absolutely blitz the Shivans? With all their shortcomings and on short notice.

Now that is something I like to think about. It's likely that the UEF would have trouble conducting extended operations in Gamma Draconis, and would be incapable of maintaining an expeditionary force in the nebula or beyond. Assuming that Capella, being 3rd Fleet HQ and all that, would be a very well-supplied system, I think early Shivan incursions, such as Sathanas #1, would be dealt with rather quickly. However, as more Shivan poor into the system and their infrastructure gets more and more damaged, they would crumble faster than the GTVA fleet.

Seconded.  I think this deserves its own topic.


Another possibility I just considered, would there be a black market for UEF fighter designs for mercenary or pirate groups?

[IcemanFreespace]

Regarding the last passage, I was thinking along the same lines as XN30. Nebula would be troublesome for UEF, and as the fighting drags on their lines would be much thinner than GTVA's. Knowing what we know now about Shivans, they'd be hopelessly outmatched, of course, but, some battles would prove to be a walk in the park and would give the fleet much needed time to rest and regroup which again throws some of the balance their way. 

Again, too many points and people to answer specifically, some are even getting way ahead of themselves, so I'd like to reset this and get to the main points.

Damage made a nice analogy about 'short legs' on UEF fighters. And we're talking mainly about small craft here, because that's where the majority of UEF's fleet advantage lie.
So when did GTVA need long legs exactly? Sol invasion, sure, don't send UEF stuff to Sol. Send something else. Use some of UEF craft for strategic attacks.
Going through the portal? Send something which will last a month in the wilderness. Fight hard for your life? Use better craft with better weapons, whichever those may be. They combined Vasudan technology with Terran. Decades on, they can't use UEF stuff? Hey, maybe those Hecates can finally be of some real use...


edit-I just have to clarify one thing, when talking about 'grim' scenarios, it was not about Shivans or other invaders, but about potential inability to supply and maintain ships. No one tested the UEF in such circumstances so no one knows for sure. But let's assume the worst scenario because otherwise this discussion does not exist.