Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: The E on June 24, 2016, 12:23:36 am
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So this is a new escalation in the ongoing dumpster fire that is the western world slide backwards to the days of idiotic nationalism. The UK has just voted in a (non-binding) referendum to leave the EU. Initial reactions have been vicious and as expected; The Pound is currently in freefall with the Euro not far behind, Northern Ireland has joined Scotland in fidgeting nervously in their seats contemplating a renewed bid for independence, and Nigel Farage is celebrating the fact that they managed to pull this off with no shots being fired (Jo Cox was a statistical outlier and should not be counted).
So yeah. I am not going to pretend to be in any way neutral in this. This is a monumentally stupid decision that undermines half a century of work towards a better Europe. I just hope the coming recession won't be too hard on all of us.
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So Brexit happened and the entire UK needs to unite....
....and take that smug wanker Farange out and give him a good kicking.
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I am really sorry to the rest of Europe for all this. This whole thing was ridiculous.
The really disgusting this is a lot of people voted based on spite not logic (my own dad included! He even bloody told me so!). Feel like my entire generation has essentially been told 'stuff you' by people like him.
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He'll regret it when he sees what it does to his pension.
The really daft thing is that this isn't going to affect the issues that people voted to leave on anywhere near as much as people think. European citizens will still have the right to live in the UK unless they want to start deporting the millions who already live there (and dealing with millions of UK citizens who are pissed off about being deported from European countries)
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Yeah, there's an interesting thing here. There's a correlation between voter age and their decision to vote leave or stay; Young voters (i.e. the 18-39 group) predominantly voted to stay, older voters voted to leave. Which of course means that the people who did vote Leave are largely people who won't have to live with the consequences of their actions for that long.
EDIT: Meanwhile, Farage is busy backpedalling: Apparently, the 350 million pounds the UK is giving to the EU won't actually go to the NHS, as that was a mistake in the Leave campaign's advertising.
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Brexit is a stupid decision and I have yet to hear any rational argument for leaving the EU. There will be some economic harm.
On the other hand, UK will now join the ranks of such a failing states as Switzerland and Norway. Oh, the horror.
Its just not a big deal either way, IMHO. Its one of those issues I have an opinion on, but cant really get excited about.
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On the other hand, UK will now join the ranks of such a failing states as Switzerland and Norway. Oh, the horror.
That remains to be seen actually: Both Norway and Switzerland have special agreements with the EU regarding a great many things. I doubt that the members of the EU are going to allow the UK the same courtesies.
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As for impact on my country, Slovak National Bank estimates that Brexit will cause a long term net GDP reduction of 0.34%. Which is unfortunate, but not a big deal.
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Not a single Scottish constituency voted leave, and the supposed security of the UK's EU membership was a key part of the anti-independence platform. It's going to be an interesting time.
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Breaking News: As promised, Cameron is resigning.
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The Racists and Political fat cats won. That is all I have to say at the moment
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Breaking News: As promised, Cameron is resigning.
As I said to a friend, at least Tony Blair will be happy that someone can finally take his "Neville Chamberlain Award for the single most short-sighted decision in British Politics"
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On the other hand, UK will now join the ranks of such a failing states as Switzerland and Norway. Oh, the horror.
That remains to be seen actually: Both Norway and Switzerland have special agreements with the EU regarding a great many things. I doubt that the members of the EU are going to allow the UK the same courtesies.
Considering the huge amount of money the UK puts into the EU, I think they'll be receptive.
Unless Germany thinks it can keep the entire ship afloat by itself.
The Racists and Political fat cats won. That is all I have to say at the moment
Drop the racism smear. You can be independent and still allow every Zod from Vasuda Prime into your country.
You just get to make that decision yourself instead of having it forced upon you by a foreign politician three layers removed from any public election.
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I can't form an opinion on it because I understand next to nothing about EU/UK politics and economics.
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Wow. I really did not expect that. Interesting times are ahead of us indeed. I have no idea how it will work for the UK but I have a feeling that it won't be any good for my country. UK's voice worked like a big counterweight for Berlin's or Brussels's ones within the EU. And now.. :rolleyes:
I don't like it. Not at all.
But as I remember Mr. Tusk said that estimated time of fulfilling all of the formalities, cancelling all UK's treaties with EU would take around 5-7 years. So everything is possible.
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Anonymous comment off of Twitter nails it:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cls2sU3XEAACuaV.jpg:large)
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On the other hand, UK will now join the ranks of such a failing states as Switzerland and Norway. Oh, the horror.
That remains to be seen actually: Both Norway and Switzerland have special agreements with the EU regarding a great many things. I doubt that the members of the EU are going to allow the UK the same courtesies.
Considering the huge amount of money the UK puts into the EU, I think they'll be receptive.
Unless Germany thinks it can keep the entire ship afloat by itself.
Sure, the UK puts a lot of money into the EU, but the opposite is also true (Wales is one of the most heavily subsidized regions in the EU (http://gov.wales/funding/eu-funds/?lang=en)), and roughly half of the UK's trade with the EU. Conversely, only a small part of the EU's trade is with the UK. If trade between both instances would catastrophically break down, the UK would lose more.
But that's not really the point either way: The expectation that the EU will play nice with a country that has repeatedly told them to **** off and now comes begging for benefits is an unrealistic one.
The Racists and Political fat cats won. That is all I have to say at the moment
Drop the racism smear. You can be independent and still allow every Zod from Vasuda Prime into your country.
Half of the leave campaign was built around not letting that happen. Also, you know, this. (https://twitter.com/GMB/status/746218028195426305)
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On the other hand, UK will now join the ranks of such a failing states as Switzerland and Norway. Oh, the horror.
That remains to be seen actually: Both Norway and Switzerland have special agreements with the EU regarding a great many things. I doubt that the members of the EU are going to allow the UK the same courtesies.
Considering the huge amount of money the UK puts into the EU, I think they'll be receptive.
Unless Germany thinks it can keep the entire ship afloat by itself.
They will have to pay for EU market access as Norway and Switzerland do although that's probably a lot less than what they pay now.
Also there are strong nationalist movements in many EU countries which will feel confirmed that the EU is useless if UK doesn't have any significant disadvantages. So I guess many politicians will aim for some hard negotiations that won't be favorable for UK and serve to discourage any further attempts at leaving the ship (I mean all these lobbyists, politicians and companies profiting from the EU don't want loose their jobs and money).
On the other hand this might finally shake up the EU institutions to stop pissing off people and do better. At least that's what I hope and that's why I was somehow feeling that the UK leaving might be better on the long run. Well unless you are living in UK :sigh:
The next 2 years will be really interesting, I just hope that whatever negative effects Brexit will cause won't affect me too much here.
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The Racists and Political fat cats won. That is all I have to say at the moment
Drop the racism smear. You can be independent and still allow every Zod from Vasuda Prime into your country.
You just get to make that decision yourself instead of having it forced upon you by a foreign politician three layers removed from any public election.
The Leave campaign was based on 2 things, the money we send to the EU coffers and the fact we cant stop EU citizens entering the country.
Another thing to note. Cameron resigned today because of the result, PM of the UK and Leader of the Conservative party. Traditionally the Conservative Party is the most Eurosceptic of the main stream parties and they believe that it is better to remain.
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On the other hand, UK will now join the ranks of such a failing states as Switzerland and Norway. Oh, the horror.
That remains to be seen actually: Both Norway and Switzerland have special agreements with the EU regarding a great many things. I doubt that the members of the EU are going to allow the UK the same courtesies.
Considering the huge amount of money the UK puts into the EU, I think they'll be receptive.
Unless Germany thinks it can keep the entire ship afloat by itself.
They will have to pay for EU market access as Norway and Switzerland do although that's probably a lot less than what they pay now.
The question is if the EU will actually let them do that, or that the UK will be given a similar agreement as, say, Canada gets (or even the "default option in case 2 years of negotiations result in nothing" option which is that the UK gets lumped in with the WTO regulations).
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LOL @ the racist buzzword. Brexit campaign was about many things, maybe I have missed talks about genetic inferiority of continental Europeans polluting your tiny island gene pool?
Thats right, I havent. Its just the buzzword buzzing again.
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You haven't been paying a whole lot of attention to UKIP (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jan/24/ukip-secretary-bigots-deserve-representation) or Boris Johnson, have you?
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LOL @ the racist buzzword. Brexit campaign was about many things, maybe I have missed talks about genetic inferiority of continental Europeans polluting your tiny island gene pool?
If a campaign is based around creating fear of people of other races, then it is racist.
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Not that I'm informed enough on this to comment in depth, and at the risk of sounding a bit like Dragon, I feel as though decades-long complex international economic policy is just about the LAST thing on the planet that should be subject to direct popular referendum.
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Not that I'm informed enough on this to comment in depth, and at the risk of sounding a bit like Dragon, I feel as though decades-long complex international economic policy is just about the LAST thing on the planet that should be subject to direct popular referendum.
No, that's actually what representative Democracy is supposed to make unnecessary. We elect our representatives not only to have our voices heard, but also so we don't have to deal with all the minutiae of government.
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If a campaign is based around creating fear of people of other races, then it is racist.
It wasnt based on that at all. People from UK and the rest of EU arent even considered to be of a different race. And topics in the campaign were about economy, sovereignty etc., not about genetics. It is clear that the R-word is used just as an meaningless insult here.
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If a campaign is based around creating fear of people of other races, then it is racist.
It wasnt based on that at all. People from UK and the rest of EU arent even considered to be of a different race. And topics in the campaign were about economy, sovereignty etc., not about genetics. It is clear that the R-word is used just as an meaningless insult here.
Race has nothing to do with genetics: No racial dividing line has ever been based on genetics or indeed any sort of actual biology. It all boils down to place of birth and culture. And yes, when it comes down to that, eastern europeans are defenitely subject to racism. I mean, c'mon: The most clear cut example of racism in our history happened during WW2, and that was entirely aimed at people that were born on the same continent.
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Well at least now that the Pound is plummeting it looks like its a great time to buy some 28mm historic miniatures from the UK. Previously the exchange rates have been not in my favor. :drevil:
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Race has nothing to do with genetics.
Thats debatable.
But more importantly, race = important genetic differences justifying discrimination, that is what racists believe. It is the very cornerstone of this belief system. Someone who does not consider genetics important can never be a racist. At worst, it can be considered bigotry or some form of unwarranted prejudice.
I know inflating the term racist to mean everything under the sun is cool thing to do currently, tough. It is BS.
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Let's table that discussion and stick to calling UKIP et al horribly idiotic hypocrites and bigots then.
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And yes, when it comes down to that, eastern europeans are defenitely subject to racism.
We were subject to racism only so far as some people subjectively believed we were genetically inferior. Other than that, we were subject to plain old prejudice, not racism.
And some of this prejudice was even somewhat warranted, because eastern Europe was indeed temporarily a bit of a crime exporter in the turbulent years after the fall of communism. I think things changed for the better, tough.
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And some of this prejudice was even somewhat warranted, because eastern Europe was indeed temporarily a bit of a crime exporter in the turbulent years after the fall of communism. I think things changed for the better, tough.
Not according to your fellow nationalists in the countries west of you though.
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Cameron's alternate resignation speech:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Clt4JT0XEAA_yUP.jpg)
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Not according to your fellow nationalists in the countries west of you though.
And while they may be wrong at this time, I am surely not going to dismiss their concerns as mere racism (except for a small minority who actually are racist). That would be dishonest.
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If a campaign is based around creating fear of people of other races, then it is racist.
It wasnt based on that at all. People from UK and the rest of EU arent even considered to be of a different race. And topics in the campaign were about economy, sovereignty etc., not about genetics. It is clear that the R-word is used just as an meaningless insult here.
To bring it back to this because I brought it on a tangent (oops). But a lot of the leave campaign focused on things like this (https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/ad_209953696.jpg). UKIP blames the EU for immigrants outside of the EU entering the UK, despite Britain having full control over non-EU citizens entering the UK. It's defenitely praying upon racist fears.
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And some of this prejudice was even somewhat warranted, because eastern Europe was indeed temporarily a bit of a crime exporter in the turbulent years after the fall of communism. I think things changed for the better, tough.
Eastern Germany would like to have a word with you regarding Polish gangs.
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I'd like to say this is a terrible idea but my country is somewhat thinking of maybe electing Trump so v0v. Imagine if they let the US populace vote on membership like this? I don't think our idiots would make any better decisions.
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I hear one more post where someone tries to redefine what racism is and I'm banning someone. I'm NOT having this thread turn into a ****fest over some side issue.
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And some of this prejudice was even somewhat warranted, because eastern Europe was indeed temporarily a bit of a crime exporter in the turbulent years after the fall of communism. I think things changed for the better, tough.
Eastern Germany would like to have a word with you regarding Polish gangs.
A few years back yes. There was a plague of thieves "raiding" the German towns near the border stealing cars and many other things. The loudest case was a Polish-Ukrainian gang which robbed a farm, taking lots of agricultural equipment. Property's owner lost more then 1 million Euros. What's most interesting, the burglaries are mostly not made by the locals but gangs or individuals from deeper territories. But now I can tell it's pretty quiet. Says a guy who lives within a stone-throw distance from Polish-German border.
But this crap works both ways. On the German side the biggest pain in the arse are NPD <nationalist> activists. A friend of mine, who lives on the German side got his house windows demolished for just being Polish.
But getting back on track.
I visited a bank today to solve some issues with my account. The worker said that they had a telephone storm, people calling, moving their money like mad. Looks like the stock exchange is about to get crazy already...
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It's a sad story, really. The Brits couldn't get the EU to establish a more reasonable immigration policy, so they left the EU... which will screw them over economically more than anything else. I don't know which treaties will stay and which won't, but I don't think it'll really be able to get the good without the bad.
That said, the worst thing about it is that it's a dangerous precedent. If the UK isn't hurt too much from the economic ramifications (pound dropping like a rock, for example), then some might get it in their heads that it'll be a good idea to get out of EU as well. Not a good thing for anyone...
Not that I'm informed enough on this to comment in depth, and at the risk of sounding a bit like Dragon, I feel as though decades-long complex international economic policy is just about the LAST thing on the planet that should be subject to direct popular referendum.
No, that's actually what representative Democracy is supposed to make unnecessary. We elect our representatives not only to have our voices heard, but also so we don't have to deal with all the minutiae of government.
This issue hardly counts as "minutiae". It's a crucial matter for the country's future. Besides, if there wasn't a referendum, they could have elected a party making leaving EU their main selling point. Ultimately, it comes down to the same thing: letting morons, incompetents and those who act on emotions decide the future of the entire country. The referendum in general was a bad idea, but it is a deep problem (and a major risk) with any democratic system.
Ultimately, we're in just about the worst situation for democracy in general - a highly polarized one. It can work quite well in a largely single-minded group, where the difference between one government and the other really is minutiae and the majority is large (minorities are still out of luck, but if they complain loudly enough the majority may take pity on them). In the current situation, on the other hand the "majority" has a whoopin' 4% over the minority. A bit over a half decides what the other almost half have to put up with. The result? Tyranny of the majority.
And some of this prejudice was even somewhat warranted, because eastern Europe was indeed temporarily a bit of a crime exporter in the turbulent years after the fall of communism. I think things changed for the better, tough.
It didn't, really. Here's the thing with nationalism: it tends to suffer from scope creep. First, it's Syrian immigrants. Then, it's Arabs in general. Then they decide all Muslims are evil (and promptly start kicking out perfectly Polish Tatar people). If it doesn't make a country a paradise where money falls from the sky (and probably even then), they'll decide all immigrants are evil. This happened before and will happen again. I'm, broadly speaking, anti-immigrant, but only because of how morons the majority reacts to the immigration problems. If nationalists get too much traction, it'll blow up in everyone's faces.
Really, I think I'm going to start learning either Russian or Chinese. It sometimes seems like the Western World is going to just come crashing down in a few decades at most (though Russia may well come crashing down when Putin dies, too...). The government in Poland is stupid, but it's old, predictable, self-absorbed kind of stupid.
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And some of this prejudice was even somewhat warranted, because eastern Europe was indeed temporarily a bit of a crime exporter in the turbulent years after the fall of communism. I think things changed for the better, tough.
Eastern Germany would like to have a word with you regarding Polish gangs.
A few years back yes. There was a plague of thieves "raiding" the German towns near the border stealing cars and many other things. The loudest case was a Polish-Ukrainian gang which robbed a farm, taking lots of agricultural equipment. Property's owner lost more then 1 million Euros. What's most interesting, the burglaries are mostly not made by the locals but gangs or individuals from deeper territories. But now I can tell it's pretty quiet. Says a guy who lives within a stone-throw distance from Polish-German border.
Well maybe that border is quiet, but what about burglaries going through the roof from 2005 - 2015?
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article153790063/Zahl-der-Wohnungseinbrueche-steigt-um-zehn-Prozent.html
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This is a tangent that should be discussed in its own thread, if at all.
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It's so ironic and sad to see the left going all ageist and disgusted by the poor after so many decades trying to be the banner of these people. Of course, they were also name-calling everyone as bigoted racists, and still are, as if they didn't get the memo that this is an election-losing strategy. The left won't learn, because the left part of our brains is just stubburnly stupid like that. So prepare to see the left raining down on Trumpsters as being bigoted racists and then risk having the entire moderate opinion go all "Ah **** you I ain't no racist" and decide to vote against Hillary.
Come on, Left, you know you wanna do this. Just keep on calling everyone bigoted and racist and sexist, it will all be fine in the coming zombie apocalypse.
Yes, you got it. I blame this **** 49/49, 49 on Juncker and his eurocrat cronies who have been doing a horrible, terrible job in Europe ****ing the entire union taking it for granted, 49 on the left who has completely lost the plot and decided to be just despicable against the majority of people in our western world because apparently, they are white or men or whatever it is that it is their sin du jour. And the remaining 2 on the Farage moron. Yes, I only give 2 to this idiot. He deserves no more credit than that.
So go on, Left, continue being despicable and see where it leaves you and the rest of the world: in the hands of the Trumps and the Boris of this world. I'll ****ing love, just LOVE that future. Me and my Colt's bullet in my ****ing brain.
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To bring it back to this because I brought it on a tangent (oops). But a lot of the leave campaign focused on things like this (https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/ad_209953696.jpg). UKIP blames the EU for immigrants outside of the EU entering the UK, despite Britain having full control over non-EU citizens entering the UK. It's defenitely praying upon racist fears.
It is true that Brexit wont help with non-EU immigration.
But the EU had an opportunity here to prove euroskeptics wrong by trying to really secure its outside borders, because such supranational issues as immigration crisis is exactly why we have the union. Instead EU elites pushed for quotas, fines for rejecting migrants and criticised Hungary for its fence. So it is only natural that UK citizens who are undecided and see such shameful displays like Calais coming from the EU will then gravitate towards voting "Leave". If not for the botched migration crisis, we may very well be celebrating a victory of the "Remain" option right now. And thats one thing that needs to be reformed to ensure that future copycat referendums fail.
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To bring it back to this because I brought it on a tangent (oops). But a lot of the leave campaign focused on things like this (https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/ad_209953696.jpg). UKIP blames the EU for immigrants outside of the EU entering the UK, despite Britain having full control over non-EU citizens entering the UK. It's defenitely praying upon racist fears.
It is true that Brexit wont help with non-EU immigration.
But the EU had an opportunity here to prove euroskeptics wrong by trying to really secure its outside borders, because such supranational issues as immigration crisis is exactly why we have the union. Instead EU elites pushed for quotas, fines for rejecting migrants and criticised Hungary for its fence. So it is only natural that UK citizens who are undecided see such shameful displays like Calais coming from the EU and then gravitate towards voting "Leave". If not for the botched migration crisis, we may very well be celebrating a victory of the "Stay" option right now. And thats one thing that needs to be reformed to ensure that future copycat referendums fail.
People voted exit because
1) longstanding political doctrine that all non english nationals in england are a uniform detriment to society and the economy
2) Promises of diverting 350 million per week into public services which has already been suggested wont happen
3) EU president said there wont be reform if the UK remained
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So for someone who doesn't live in Europe nor pays attention to European politics (which I probably should start but I'm more concerned for our disaster of a political system in the US to really care), could someone explain to me why this could be good or bad for Britain?
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Hang on a second. Does anyone seriously believe that the UK being out of Europe is going to make the French police try harder to prevent immigrants crossing the Channel?
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You're missing the point. The next agenda is to build a wall. Because obviously.
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To bring it back to this because I brought it on a tangent (oops). But a lot of the leave campaign focused on things like this (https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/ad_209953696.jpg). UKIP blames the EU for immigrants outside of the EU entering the UK, despite Britain having full control over non-EU citizens entering the UK. It's defenitely praying upon racist fears.
It is true that Brexit wont help with non-EU immigration.
But the EU had an opportunity here to prove euroskeptics wrong by trying to really secure its outside borders, because such supranational issues as immigration crisis is exactly why we have the union. Instead EU elites pushed for quotas, fines for rejecting migrants and criticised Hungary for its fence. So it is only natural that UK citizens who are undecided and see such shameful displays like Calais coming from the EU will then gravitate towards voting "Leave". If not for the botched migration crisis, we may very well be celebrating a victory of the "Remain" option right now. And thats one thing that needs to be reformed to ensure that future copycat referendums fail.
Hungary deserves some of the blame for that: It recieves tons of funding from the EU yet refuses to offer even a token support (I mean, it's quota was... 1,294). It's a clear cut case of an entity wanting to recieve the benefits of an institution without wanting to do any of the work.
So for someone who doesn't live in Europe nor pays attention to European politics (which I probably should start but I'm more concerned for our disaster of a political system in the US to really care), could someone explain to me why this could be good or bad for Britain?
Well, the first clear cut case that springs to mind is that Britian, being both anglophone and part of the EU, houses the headquarters of a lot of companies that seek to establish a foothold in the EU. These companies have no cause to be there when it ends. In a similar vein, a lot of car companies like BMW have factories in Britian thanks to the EU free trade agreements - without those agreements, those factories may be closed.
In essence, Britian has been part of the EU for a very long time and it's economy has been built around being a part of the EU. This manouvre pulls the rug out from under the whole structure.
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It's so ironic and sad to see the left going all ageist and disgusted by the poor after so many decades trying to be the banner of these people.
You sound surprised to realize what Trump and "the Left" have known all along; that old working-class white people consistently vote against their own interests.
Where have you been the last decade? Where were you when Bernie was trying to turn out the college kids? Where were you when Obama did turn out the college kids eight years ago? How about the last Bush midterms? The articles that were discussing the fact the poorest states in the Union were the ones most likely to vote for people who cut their social safety nets I remember from about the first time I started reading the newspaper, in Northern Virginia, a couple of decades ago now?
This is admittedly a new and interesting way for a nation to suffer for its demographics, but it is in no way surprising, and your prescription for the future in no way rational, much as your failure to understand a situation that has pertained for at least a generation and a half isn't.
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Hungary deserves some of the blame for that: It recieves tons of funding from the EU yet refuses to offer even a token support (I mean, it's quota was... 1,294). It's a clear cut case of an entity wanting to recieve the benefits of an institution without wanting to do any of the work.
Hungary with their fence has done more to support the European Project through these hard times that the rest of the EU combined. As they were obligated to under Schengen treaty. On the other hand, rejecting migrant quotas is a bit like refusing to provide heroin for a junkie. He may hate you for it, but ultimately its for his own good.
Really, the only thing Hungary deserves a blame for is for not acting quickly enough and dumping some migrants on Austria. But in the land of the blind, even a one eyed man is the king..
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To bring it back to this because I brought it on a tangent (oops). But a lot of the leave campaign focused on things like this (https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/ad_209953696.jpg). UKIP blames the EU for immigrants outside of the EU entering the UK, despite Britain having full control over non-EU citizens entering the UK. It's defenitely praying upon racist fears.
It is true that Brexit wont help with non-EU immigration.
But the EU had an opportunity here to prove euroskeptics wrong by trying to really secure its outside borders, because such supranational issues as immigration crisis is exactly why we have the union. Instead EU elites pushed for quotas, fines for rejecting migrants and criticised Hungary for its fence. So it is only natural that UK citizens who are undecided and see such shameful displays like Calais coming from the EU will then gravitate towards voting "Leave". If not for the botched migration crisis, we may very well be celebrating a victory of the "Remain" option right now. And thats one thing that needs to be reformed to ensure that future copycat referendums fail.
Hungary deserves some of the blame for that: It recieves tons of funding from the EU yet refuses to offer even a token support (I mean, it's quota was... 1,294). It's a clear cut case of an entity wanting to recieve the benefits of an institution without wanting to do any of the work.
As I remember Hungarians put quite a big effort to their border security so I see no reason to say "they did not do any work". They did no do what the EU wanted. Which was taking people into the country against host's will. In fact, the harder all the Junckers, Tusks, Schultzes and other "kings of Europe" will try to force this on our countries, the bigger aversion towards EU's policies they will achieve. This applies to any other aspect of Union's activities which gambles with member state's sovereignty, not only the migrant crisis.
Entire Brexit thing should be one big "ALERT" sign for the guys I mentioned above. And I'm very curious if they learn anything from that.
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To bring it back to this because I brought it on a tangent (oops). But a lot of the leave campaign focused on things like this (https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/ad_209953696.jpg). UKIP blames the EU for immigrants outside of the EU entering the UK, despite Britain having full control over non-EU citizens entering the UK. It's defenitely praying upon racist fears.
It is true that Brexit wont help with non-EU immigration.
But the EU had an opportunity here to prove euroskeptics wrong by trying to really secure its outside borders, because such supranational issues as immigration crisis is exactly why we have the union. Instead EU elites pushed for quotas, fines for rejecting migrants and criticised Hungary for its fence. So it is only natural that UK citizens who are undecided and see such shameful displays like Calais coming from the EU will then gravitate towards voting "Leave". If not for the botched migration crisis, we may very well be celebrating a victory of the "Remain" option right now. And thats one thing that needs to be reformed to ensure that future copycat referendums fail.
Hungary deserves some of the blame for that: It recieves tons of funding from the EU yet refuses to offer even a token support (I mean, it's quota was... 1,294). It's a clear cut case of an entity wanting to recieve the benefits of an institution without wanting to do any of the work.
As I remember Hungarians put quite a big effort to their border security so I see no reason to say "they did not do any work". They did no do what the EU wanted. Which was taking people into the country against host's will. In fact, the harder all the Junckers, Tusks, Schultzes and other "kings of Europe" will try to force this on our countries, the bigger aversion towards EU's policies they will achieve. This applies to any other aspect of Union's activities which gambles with member state's sovereignty, not only the migrant crisis.
Entire Brexit thing should be one big "ALERT" sign for the guys I mentioned above. And I'm very curious if they learn anything from that.
Thing is, if Hungary had accepted the agreement they would have ended up with less refugees then they have now.
I mean, it's fine if you don't want *any* refugees in your country, even though it's a rather unrealistic proposition, but don't come crying about the "Kings of Europe" wanting their money back when you fail to cough up your end of the bargain. It's not like Hungary was coerced into the EU. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_European_Union_membership_referendum,_2003), and it's not like they haven't benefitted from it. (http://ec.europa.eu/budget/mycountry/HU/index_en.cfm#cinfo) That 350 million euro fine is nothing compared to the money they have recieved thus far.
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So in the wake of this Brexit snafu if Scotland decides to vote on secession again and is successful does the Union Jack need to lose the St Andrew's Cross?
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/13/article-0-0F71B62B00000578-770_634x316.jpg)
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I'm drinking with a Welsh guy and he's already pissed off enough that he can't blame the English before we bring up the fact the Union flag doesn't have a dragon, so let's not go there.
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Internet users have no mercy. As usual xD
(https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0Gqpu4hGaLgmrUAw/giphy.gif)
(http://i.giphy.com/3o85xpXcGqIX5ALSlG.gif)
(https://scontent-waw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13529168_10157069400750483_4314413803865874073_n.png?oh=b9b048ac4cfef2d09f1ecada1fcb37b2&oe=57F639FD)
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(https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13438944_1761373017473745_6091917513090768738_n.jpg?oh=dce378e4004d54154e6a682c141ebe38&oe=580965D2)
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https://i.sli.mg/aKio6K.jpg
https://twitter.com/xMattyG/status/746156768313614340
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It's so ironic and sad to see the left going all ageist and disgusted by the poor after so many decades trying to be the banner of these people.
You sound surprised to realize what Trump and "the Left" have known all along; that old working-class white people consistently vote against their own interests.
Where have you been the last decade? Where were you when Bernie was trying to turn out the college kids? Where were you when Obama did turn out the college kids eight years ago? How about the last Bush midterms? The articles that were discussing the fact the poorest states in the Union were the ones most likely to vote for people who cut their social safety nets I remember from about the first time I started reading the newspaper, in Northern Virginia, a couple of decades ago now?
This is admittedly a new and interesting way for a nation to suffer for its demographics, but it is in no way surprising, and your prescription for the future in no way rational, much as your failure to understand a situation that has pertained for at least a generation and a half isn't.
none of these criticisms hold water to what I actually said if you pay attention to my words. I completely understand why certain demographics appear to vote "against their own interests" - which apparently is only a crime when done against the left: if a "privileged" person votes for the left then said person is not irrational or stupid anymore, they are instead "idealists", really good moral people. Apparently if you're poor, you're also not allowed to be just that: an idealist. You are also stupid, not selfish enough, and most probably, a bigot.
And what I actually said was: stop doing this. Stop patronising these people. start to respect them. treat them as adults and as compatriots. Stop insulting them as bigots or racists or sexists just because they voted for something you don't agree with. You don't know these people, you have no right to call them this. Also, it fails absolutely in the persuasion level. You're merely behaving obnoxiously, arrogantly and pushing them towards anyone else.
Yes, even to somebody like Boris or Trump. These crooks have learned long ago The simplest of truths: you'll never convince anyone if you keep being nasty and ****ty to them.
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A nation committing suicide, I don't know if I should be sad or start eating pop corn.
It's so ironic and sad to see the left going all ageist and disgusted by the poor after so many decades trying to be the banner of these people.
You sound surprised to realize what Trump and "the Left" have known all along; that old working-class white people consistently vote against their own interests.
Where have you been the last decade? Where were you when Bernie was trying to turn out the college kids? Where were you when Obama did turn out the college kids eight years ago? How about the last Bush midterms? The articles that were discussing the fact the poorest states in the Union were the ones most likely to vote for people who cut their social safety nets I remember from about the first time I started reading the newspaper, in Northern Virginia, a couple of decades ago now?
This is admittedly a new and interesting way for a nation to suffer for its demographics, but it is in no way surprising, and your prescription for the future in no way rational, much as your failure to understand a situation that has pertained for at least a generation and a half isn't.
none of these criticisms hold water to what I actually said if you pay attention to my words. I completely understand why certain demographics appear to vote "against their own interests" - which apparently is only a crime when done against the left: if a "privileged" person votes for the left then said person is not irrational or stupid anymore, they are instead "idealists", really good moral people. Apparently if you're poor, you're also not allowed to be just that: an idealist. You are also stupid, not selfish enough, and most probably, a bigot.
And what I actually said was: stop doing this. Stop patronising these people. start to respect them. treat them as adults and as compatriots. Stop insulting them as bigots or racists or sexists just because they voted for something you don't agree with. You don't know these people, you have no right to call them this. Also, it fails absolutely in the persuasion level. You're merely behaving obnoxiously, arrogantly and pushing them towards anyone else.
Yes, even to somebody like Boris or Trump. These crooks have learned long ago The simplest of truths: you'll never convince anyone if you keep being nasty and ****ty to them.
As someone who owns a small hotel I can say that a privileged person who votes for the left does it in good conscience because he knows he can afford it (yes, he knows that if he votes left he migh pay more taxes but seeing less disenfranchised people in the street is indirectly good for business, or, in my case, because he knows that state ferry services on which his business depends on won't have stupid budget cuts), a poor person that votes for any force that goes against its interest does that because he couldn't get informed on the candidates they're voting really want to do other than bash "those damn commies/migrants/whatever that will take the people's money" or because they don't want to learn and prefer to take everything at face value, which often does indeed translate in stupidity which then takes a turn into bigotry of all kind, from racism or xenofobia to sexism and anti-intellectualism.
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So it's 6am and I'm drinking with a Welsh friend as pissed off as I am. I have literally never been as pissed off in my life as much as I am now. What should we do?
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Stop being divisive and deriding the other side as less intelligent and civilized as your side. It doesn't work.
...But they are!!
:rolleyes:
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It's so ironic and sad to see the left going all ageist and disgusted by the poor after so many decades trying to be the banner of these people. Of course, they were also name-calling everyone as bigoted racists, and still are, as if they didn't get the memo that this is an election-losing strategy. The left won't learn, because the left part of our brains is just stubburnly stupid like that. So prepare to see the left raining down on Trumpsters as being bigoted racists and then risk having the entire moderate opinion go all "Ah **** you I ain't no racist" and decide to vote against Hillary.
Come on, Left, you know you wanna do this. Just keep on calling everyone bigoted and racist and sexist, it will all be fine in the coming zombie apocalypse.
Yes, you got it. I blame this **** 49/49, 49 on Juncker and his eurocrat cronies who have been doing a horrible, terrible job in Europe ****ing the entire union taking it for granted, 49 on the left who has completely lost the plot and decided to be just despicable against the majority of people in our western world because apparently, they are white or men or whatever it is that it is their sin du jour. And the remaining 2 on the Farage moron. Yes, I only give 2 to this idiot. He deserves no more credit than that.
So go on, Left, continue being despicable and see where it leaves you and the rest of the world: in the hands of the Trumps and the Boris of this world. I'll ****ing love, just LOVE that future. Me and my Colt's bullet in my ****ing brain.
So the speech about stopping being divisive and insulting towards people that don't agree with you... is delivered via being divisive and insulting towards people that don't agree with you.
I'll respect people in so far as respecting them as people, but I won't pretend bad arguments aren't bad, or obvious attempts to carve special authority status aren't obvious, or disdain for historical precedent and experts' opinions isn't the worst thing that's happened to public discourse (not that it's a new thing, but it tends to go in waves and is back with a vengeance right now).
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Sure, the UK puts a lot of money into the EU, but the opposite is also true (Wales is one of the most heavily subsidized regions in the EU (http://gov.wales/funding/eu-funds/?lang=en)), and roughly half of the UK's trade with the EU. Conversely, only a small part of the EU's trade is with the UK. If trade between both instances would catastrophically break down, the UK would lose more.
But that's not really the point either way: The expectation that the EU will play nice with a country that has repeatedly told them to **** off and now comes begging for benefits is an unrealistic one.
Who said anything about begging? The UK contributes double what it receives from the EU; even assuming losses (which are ultimately unpredictable), it's likely that whatever new trade deals the UK makes will cover their own. It's the smaller member states of the EU--namely everyone who isn't Germany, France, or Italy--that stand to suffer the most.
The Racists and Political fat cats won. That is all I have to say at the moment
Drop the racism smear. You can be independent and still allow every Zod from Vasuda Prime into your country.
Half of the leave campaign was built around not letting that happen. Also, you know, this. (https://twitter.com/GMB/status/746218028195426305)
And the fact that simply being able to decide to let it happen or not first required such drastic measures should be a huge red flag that the EU has become toxic and anti-democratic.
The second is scumbaggy but irrelevant to the point at hand.
It's so ironic and sad to see the left going all ageist and disgusted by the poor after so many decades trying to be the banner of these people. Of course, they were also name-calling everyone as bigoted racists, and still are, as if they didn't get the memo that this is an election-losing strategy. The left won't learn, because the left part of our brains is just stubburnly stupid like that. So prepare to see the left raining down on Trumpsters as being bigoted racists and then risk having the entire moderate opinion go all "Ah **** you I ain't no racist" and decide to vote against Hillary.
Yeah, it's absolutely depressing. Somehow we've managed to raise a generation with only a cargo-cult-esque understanding of democracy and why people who don't agree with you are allowed to vote.
e: malformed quotes
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As a rule of thumb, open borders with poorer nations are against the interest of the domestic lower working class. Thats the logical, intuitive position to take, and it makes sense. It is a simple economic reasoning.
If you want to show the working classes why in this particular special case it paradoxically may not be true, you need to explain it to them clearly with facts, not insult them. If you insult them, they will just double down on the intuitive position.
The working classes are not voting against their own interests from their point of view.
And it is ironic that the Left, which is supposed to champion the rights of the working class, fails to understand them and instead chooses an elitist stance and insults.
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Brexit is a tragically-shortsighted decision based on false memories of a glorified bygone era and a thorough anti-immigrant undercurrent, nothing more, nothing less. It's an economically catastrophic decision that brings nothing but harm to Britain, and will almost certainly stoke the fires of Scottish and Irish nationalism to exit Britain and enter the EU. The EU has its problems, no question, but it was always better for Britain to remain in and work to address those problems than throw a tantrum. And that is precisely what this vote is.
My wife, despite having lived in Canada for the past twenty years, retains her UK citizenship. Both my kids are also UK citizens. This decision is nothing but harmful to all of them.
I don't have enough words to express how stupid and terrible this decision is, and furthermore I cannot believe a vote this important to the country as a whole was left to a 50%+1 standard. It's beyond insane.
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The thing is that the left did try o explain why people wouldn't be better off if we left. The problem is that it is easier to believe lies. The leave side flat out lied about how all the money that goes to Europe would go into the NHS and people bought it.
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I cannot believe a vote this important to the country as a whole was left to a 50%+1 standard. It's beyond insane.
As opposed to the Maastricht Treaty, which was implemented without any vote at all?
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The thing is that the left did try o explain why people wouldn't be better off if we left. The problem is that it is easier to believe lies. The leave side flat out lied about how all the money that goes to Europe would go into the NHS and people bought it.
Was 'the left' even involved in this? My reading on the situation was that it was mainly a campaign of Cameron VS Johnson and Farage - eg, Tories vs other Tories and UKIP.
And heck, I really wouldn't describe Labour (who did not seem that involved) as a left wing party anymore - They have got a lot of work to do under Corbyn, and he's been quiet during this one.
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I mean the left as in the public. The actual supposedly left wing parties (like Corbyn's Labour) were ****ing useless.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36574526
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The thing is that the left did try o explain why people wouldn't be better off if we left. The problem is that it is easier to believe lies. The leave side flat out lied about how all the money that goes to Europe would go into the NHS and people bought it.
Was 'the left' even involved in this? My reading on the situation was that it was mainly a campaign of Cameron VS Johnson and Farage - eg, Tories vs other Tories and UKIP.
The fact that everyone not in the Tory party or parties to the right of it treated it as nothing more than a squabble between Eton schoolboys fighting over who gets to sit at the front of the table was a big part of the problem. The other problem that Labour had is that they'd have to be seen siding with Cameron over an issue, which noone (not even Corbyn) could have pulled off without being discredited in the process.
And yes, the fact that Leave had a couple of really juicy soundbites pre-primed and ready due to decades of more-or-less justified EU bashing coming from the euroskeptic wing of the Tory party helped immensely.
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The thing is that the left did try o explain why people wouldn't be better off if we left. The problem is that it is easier to believe lies.
This is exactly why I lost faith in democracy (believe me, I used to have it). People do not make informed, reasonable decisions. They take the candidates at face value and act mostly on their emotions. The people who actually do make informed decisions are few and far between (and certainly not enough to outvote the morons who don't).
In fact, when choosing between a candidate who generally sticks to the truth and one that shamelessly makes things up, they'll go for the latter. Case in a point, Donald Trump:
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/
The underdog in this race? The one who pays some lip service to truth, at least:
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/hillary-clinton/
The loser who never had a chance? The honest guy (relatively, of course):
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/bernie-s/
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It's so ironic and sad to see the left going all ageist and disgusted by the poor after so many decades trying to be the banner of these people. Of course, they were also name-calling everyone as bigoted racists, and still are, as if they didn't get the memo that this is an election-losing strategy. The left won't learn, because the left part of our brains is just stubburnly stupid like that. So prepare to see the left raining down on Trumpsters as being bigoted racists and then risk having the entire moderate opinion go all "Ah **** you I ain't no racist" and decide to vote against Hillary.
Come on, Left, you know you wanna do this. Just keep on calling everyone bigoted and racist and sexist, it will all be fine in the coming zombie apocalypse.
Yes, you got it. I blame this **** 49/49, 49 on Juncker and his eurocrat cronies who have been doing a horrible, terrible job in Europe ****ing the entire union taking it for granted, 49 on the left who has completely lost the plot and decided to be just despicable against the majority of people in our western world because apparently, they are white or men or whatever it is that it is their sin du jour. And the remaining 2 on the Farage moron. Yes, I only give 2 to this idiot. He deserves no more credit than that.
So go on, Left, continue being despicable and see where it leaves you and the rest of the world: in the hands of the Trumps and the Boris of this world. I'll ****ing love, just LOVE that future. Me and my Colt's bullet in my ****ing brain.
So the speech about stopping being divisive and insulting towards people that don't agree with you... is delivered via being divisive and insulting towards people that don't agree with you.
I'll respect people in so far as respecting them as people, but I won't pretend bad arguments aren't bad, or obvious attempts to carve special authority status aren't obvious, or disdain for historical precedent and experts' opinions isn't the worst thing that's happened to public discourse (not that it's a new thing, but it tends to go in waves and is back with a vengeance right now).
Your questioning my hypocrisy is well put, and I admit my failings here, except for a very few important differences.
First, I was never this confrontational during the campaigns. I always addressed people online without any name calling and always challenging the arguments, not the people. And yet, I couldn't but see not only everyone going on on how the Leave campaign was bigoted and racist and etc., I saw the mainstream media treating the Leave campaign that way. This backfired. Hard. All I saw was this ****ty divisive attitude that did actually drive people away. I saw this in real time. And they are still doing it.
Second, I am not railing against the Remain voters. Those are merely sensible people who voted reasonably conservative. I am railing against slacktivists and activists and media pundits that kept on calling their opposition as bigots. These are the assholes. Conversely, the Leave voters are the ones being called bigots. Perhaps too old to even know what the hell they are doing (AGEISM FTW!!!!), definitely too white for their own good, etc. The Leave voters. Which apparently comprise half of a nation. Just look at that Bullock's comment up there. Detestable. "Rich leftists are alright, poor right wingers are stupid", etc. The classism within the Left is truly astounding these days.
Third, the Left is completely misdiagnosing everything, and losing elections like it's christmas to their opponents. This pisses me off to no end. There were truly good arguments for Leave, and to see that I'm not just apologizing for xenophobia or any other stupid epiteph you want to glue me in, just think on how Greece was and is being treated. Not even an empire would treat one of its colonies this bad. To know how the back corridors of those discussions went is vomiting inducing. At one point, Varoufakis was threatened with Causus belli if he didn't sign a bailout that everyone in the room knew and confirmed wouldn't work. This sole example is enough for any Leave campaign in any european country. Let alone what they did to all the other so-called "PIIGS" countries (good non-xenophobia there, europe, just great).
So to say that because the xenophobes voted for Leave, therefore Leave is xenophobic, merely outlines how irrational and logic-absent the brains that are uttering these words are. If Europe had behaved rationally and sensibly for the past 10 years, the Leave campaign would have lost in a landslide. And this name-calling was not only untrue and irrational, it backfired.
And yet, all we had in the nets and tvs and newspapers was how "Xenophobia was winning", or how the problem was the white old english bigots. Well, a lot of people just gave all these pseudo-elites their middle finger. And I understand that, albeit being sad at the price of it.
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That's a little bit better, the problem is though that there can be good arguments somewhere for a topic, but it doesn't mean everyone is on that side for that reason, and many of the people I've read commenting and growsing about the leave voters are doing so after running into people stating they voted that way for said poor, emotional reasons.
Not to mention that there's no one block of Left and anyone that tries to group so otherwise is usually doin the whole us vs them approach. In most contexts, particularly my own country, the "Left" is a loose alliance of people with some of the same goals but much disagreement, only united to a particular party leaning because the one thing they can agree on is that they're extremely against what the other party is proposing.
That's why what I was saying is more important, everyone I've talked to that suddenly starts picturing 'the Left' as that this magical monolithic force, somehow both stupid and losing yet also simultaneously threatening and authoritative tends to rapidly lose the capacity for meaningful discourse themselves. Calling out the hypocrisy wasn't just a point of argument semantics, it's that it really deserves to be pointed out that you can't expect other people to identify with their opponent and learn their motivations if you're not doing the same (whether in actuality or appearance is unclear, but the effect is the same in public speaking).
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While there might be a good case for Leave, we didn't hear it. If you follow the campaigning it was largely lies about how the money we give to Europe could all be spent on the NHS or other bollocks like that. The Leave campaign played on a fear of immigrants.
But the biggest problem was the Remain campaigns failure to actually ****ing do anything. The Lib Dems and especially Labour failed miserably, basically leaving Cameron to do their work. Is it any ****ing surprise that Labour voters didn't listen to him?
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I agree with your criticism of Labour and Corbyn. I hear none of that in social media. And I should be listening to that.
Anyways, came across this comment that aligns with what I'm saying, probably written by a #Brexiteer. Thought I'd share.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClyzNekWgAAUTgn.jpg)
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Actually, if Cameron had a spine and felt any shame for the fact he's almost essentially broken up the Union just to steal some votes from UKIP, he wouldn't just meekly resign.
He'd call a general election.
He could easily justify it on the grounds that who leads the UK out of Europe shouldn't be decided based on a Tory Leadership election which the electorate have no say about.
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Actually, if Cameron had a spine and felt any shame for the fact he's almost essentially broken up the Union just to steal some votes from UKIP, he wouldn't just meekly resign.
He'd call a general election.
He could easily justify it on the grounds that who leads the UK out of Europe shouldn't be decided based on a Tory Leadership election which the electorate have no say about.
This. I am amazed that he is resigning and not calling an election. Let Labour stand up and say "Vote for us and we will keep the UK together and in Europe. All the buyers remorse Brexiters would flock to them.
Would it hurt the Tories? No question.
Would it be better for Britain as a nation? No question.
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I agree with your criticism of Labour and Corbyn. I hear none of that in social media. And I should be listening to that.
Anyways, came across this comment that aligns with what I'm saying, probably written by a #Brexiteer. Thought I'd share.
<snip>
I feel like making an onion headline out of this: '"I'm not a bigot!" says man who voted to deport the slavs.'
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We interrupt your regularly scheduled programming to bring you a related **** up by fox news
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/fox-news-just-reported-the-uk-has-voted-to-leave-the-un-5964181/
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Yeah, I was going to post that as soon as I was off my phone.
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Actually, if Cameron had a spine and felt any shame for the fact he's almost essentially broken up the Union just to steal some votes from UKIP, he wouldn't just meekly resign.
He'd call a general election.
He could easily justify it on the grounds that who leads the UK out of Europe shouldn't be decided based on a Tory Leadership election which the electorate have no say about.
This. I am amazed that he is resigning and not calling an election. Let Labour stand up and say "Vote for us and we will keep the UK together and in Europe. All the buyers remorse Brexiters would flock to them.
Would it hurt the Tories? No question.
Would it be better for Britain as a nation? No question.
This is strictly ridiculous and anti-democratic. Not only the brits have chosen the Tory party to lead the nation in a landslide, they also voted to leave Europe. And now you want a solution that will undo all of these things. It's almost as if you really hate democracy. I'm sorry, but they have voted, they earn to have the things they have voted being implemented.
I feel like making an onion headline out of this: '"I'm not a bigot!" says man who voted to deport the slavs.'
Another fine example of the problem I'm talking about. Go on, keep being the problem.
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This is strictly ridiculous and anti-democratic. Not only the brits have chosen the Tory party to lead the nation in a landslide, they also voted to leave Europe. And now you want a solution that will undo all of these things. It's almost as if you really hate democracy. I'm sorry, but they have voted, they earn to have the things they have voted being implemented.
You call it ridiculous, I call it seeing the light. :) Seriously, the current situation is exactly what I've been afraid of all this time. This is where democracy will lead us. You let morons rule, you get moronic decisions. Any solution that amounts to "ignore the morons and do the right thing" is anti-democratic (and likely to be effective, too). What BW proposes is probably one of the best ways out of this fix. Give people a chance to take their vote back, elect someone else and forget about the whole thing.
In the end, all I can do is nod my head, mutter "told you so" and snicker. It's a shame, though. EU wasn't a bad idea in principle. If it wasn't ruled by a bunch of retards, it could've lasted.
(sorry for extreme bitterness, I'm in a rather doomy mood)
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Another fine example of the problem I'm talking about. Go on, keep being the problem.
Yeah sorry, I just read a post on another forum chanting that now that Britain is rid of the EU they can finally start deporting the poles and the gays (...) so I might just be a bit jaded.
It's kinda hard to keep your cool in this kind of athmosphere, and hell, you're not really succeeding at it either, and I don't think anyone can.
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Where was that? I could show it to anyone from Poland who thinks electing fascists and nationalists (and supporting people electing them in other countries) is a good idea. :)
Though I suppose we've gotten off lightly, they just want to deport us, not put us into concentration camps with the Muslims...
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Where was that? I could show it to anyone from Poland who thinks electing fascists and nationalists (and supporting people electing them in other countries) is a good idea. :)
Though I suppose we've gotten off lightly, they just want to deport us, not put us into concentration camps with the Muslims...
A private section of the forum for premium members, so I'm not really going that far (It has a full name policy for the purposes of online racing).
Voting in fascists was never a good idea, but... well, what makes your alternative so much better? You may have morons leading the charge in democracies, but ultimately the people that make those bad decisions tend not to stick around. On the other hand, the oligarchs and monarchs that plunged the world into WW1 and lead it to such lovely things as the armenian genocide needed... well, WW1 to put a stop to them. Yeah sure, Hitler and Mussolini took over a (not very functional) democracy, but they needed a hell of a lot of violence, murder, and the occasional bout of intimidation to get there. And don't even get me started on Japan.
Ultimately, the UK voted for the exit in a referendum that is non-binding. This means that the decision can still be reversed, it means that the balance of power can be changed, easily and fluidly. I don't think the calls for another referendum are getting anywhere and they are too little, too late, but Nigel Farage sure was quick to let his mask slip with him saying that, no, actually, I'm not going to put any money into the NHS after this despite me printing this promise on the side of the bus.
Therein lies the strength of a democracy: Bad decisions can be reversed far more easily. Britain would not be better of if it was just Nigel Farage leading them.
(Regardless or not it's actually a bad decision - I think it is but another core principle of democracy is that the people have the right to screw themselves over - and I think that is far better then being screwed over by someone they did not want)
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Where was that? I could show it to anyone from Poland who thinks electing fascists and nationalists (and supporting people electing them in other countries) is a good idea. :)
Though I suppose we've gotten off lightly, they just want to deport us, not put us into concentration camps with the Muslims...
Like it or not, Britain is first and foremost a homeland of British people, not Poles or other Slavs. If majority of Brits really does not want us mass immigrating into their country (either due to us increasing job market competition too much, or other reasons), we should respect their decision. I too would not be very keen on Brits mass immigrating into Slovakia, and that does not mean I hate them. Just like I would not like it if my neighbours lived inside my house, even if we have positive relationship between us.
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Can't say much about the UK situation at the moment, but how does it help against accusations of lacking democracy in EU when the foreign ministers of Germany, France, Luxembourg, Italy, Netherlands and Belgium speak on behalf of the rest of the member states on an emergency meeting on Saturday (that's 6 out of 27)? I'd think that the most important thing would have been to ask EVERY member state foreign minister to jump on the plane RIGHT NOW regardless where or how drunk you are to make EU appear uniform in the statement. Great going guys, this really is elementary! Yes, this has been seen going on before, but not as perceptibly.
I really don't mind the bureaucrats in Bryssels wetting their shorts one more time. The honeymoon is officially over, now get to work or get out. The EU needs radical reform, several notable figures really have to go at this point (and fast) to regain trust in the system. The system really needs to consider local conditions far more carefully, and when EU wide directives or agreements are issued, the EU really needs to make sure those directives and agreements are really implemented the same way everywhere. And there really cannot be as much pushing your own agenda from this point on, looking at you France and Germany. Less unscientific green crapola would be much appreciated too.
Meanwhile, all the best for the UK. The timing is unfortunate (six months to year from now on would have been much better in grand scheme of things), but I respect the decision. The most ideal thing would have been the dissolution of the EU as it is now AFTER the fall of Russian Federation. UK will likely see economical hurdles in the near future, but as always, it is possible to get over them for a brighter future.
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Can't say much about the UK situation at the moment, but how does it help against accusations of lacking democracy in EU when the foreign ministers of Germany, France, Luxembourg, Italy, Netherlands and Belgium speak on behalf of the rest of the member states on an emergency meeting on Saturday (that's 6 out of 27)?
They don't speak on behalf of the entire Eu, just on behalf of the founding members. Which is them.
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Can't say much about the UK situation at the moment, but how does it help against accusations of lacking democracy in EU when the foreign ministers of Germany, France, Luxembourg, Italy, Netherlands and Belgium speak on behalf of the rest of the member states on an emergency meeting on Saturday (that's 6 out of 27)?
They don't speak on behalf of the entire Eu, just on behalf of the founding members. Which is them.
That's not how it looks like from the eyes of the commoner. Do you think he will consider there is a difference between a "founding member" and a "member"? When making such public announcements, then make sure the media gets you are speaking on behalf of your own country, not on behalf of the EU.
Speaking about it, what is the difference between a founding member and a member? Other than founding members were the first in the union? If there is no other difference, then it goes back to the question why do these countries alone issue a statement? If it's their opinion only, then why did they issue it in the first place and it was necessary to do that together on Saturday?
Really not the smartest play there, given the circumstances.
As a side note this time Merkel seems to be doing she should be doing; that is to wait for the British parliament to act with the referendum result. It's still a close call, and the parliament can well say Nay to Brexit given the small difference.
Meanwhile the stock market is sawing up and down like nothing before. Easy come, easy go.
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Voting in fascists was never a good idea, but... well, what makes your alternative so much better? You may have morons leading the charge in democracies, but ultimately the people that make those bad decisions tend not to stick around.
Not really. You'll notice that as long as they can find someone to blame, they can and will stick around. Polish government is an example, the core members are pretty much the same since the 90s, with occasional swapping of the seats. Also, what's your guarantee that the replacement isn't just as bad as the previous guys? Or worse, for that matter (which seems to be the trend lately)? Also, unless we train politicians from birth to do their job (to their credit, the US seems to have something of that sort in place, at least), they'd have a hard time measuring up to good monarchs. Which, if you look through history, actually comprised the majority of kings and queens. Clueless and weak royals were an exception, not the rule, even when primogeniture was in place (today we have better systems for picking who gets the throne). Not to mention fascism and totalitarianism were unheard of back then, which certainly was a plus.
Even WWI was not inherently a problem with monarchies, but with the way international diplomacy worked at the time. There was no such thing as coordinated diplomatic effort, it was every country for itself in an age in which world was starting to become more and more intertwined. If they had bodies like UN this wouldn't have happened (indeed, the idea of the UN is more or less a direct result of WWI). And the examples of genocides that happened under monarchs are rather wimpy compared to what post-WWII attempts at democracy have resulted with. Indeed, no monarchy (unless we count North Korea, I suppose) ever had an industrialized apparatus designed to exterminate its own people, something that sprung up in two places at once in just about 30 years of kicking the monarchs out. And it looks like we're heading that way again. Even the Ottoman empire, which largely deserved what happened to it, was better than most countries (or what passes for countries, anyway) occupying that space now. Turkey, Iran, Jordan and Armenia are just about the only ones which can claim to have improved over the Ottomans (though a few others managed not to get much worse, to their credit...).
Britain may yet reverse its moronic decision, but I wouldn't bet my money on it. Britain is very split on the issue, which means that pendulum might be easily swayed back and forth with emotional arguments only. There's still a chance, of course, but it's not looking good. Remember, the same morons who voted in the referendum will have a say in every next decision about it, or at the very least in who gets to make those decisions.
I think it is but another core principle of democracy is that the people have the right to screw themselves over - and I think that is far better then being screwed over by someone they did not want
You're missing one important thing. People are not screwing themselves over. Nearly 52% of them is screwing everyone over. This is the problem. I would be all for democracy if the voting result only applied to those who voted such - everyone would get exactly what they ask for. The problem is that a bunch of gibbering idiots get to force their delusions upon everyone else. I could live with a smart, educated ruler making the decisions, even if I didn't have any say in them (he's probably better fit to make them than me, anyway). With politicians, there's no guarantee that they have the proper education (we had historians, a crystallographist and, in one notable case, a shipyard electrician), they only thing they are certain to have are charisma and self-advertising skills.
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Where was that? I could show it to anyone from Poland who thinks electing fascists and nationalists (and supporting people electing them in other countries) is a good idea. :)
Though I suppose we've gotten off lightly, they just want to deport us, not put us into concentration camps with the Muslims...
Like it or not, Britain is first and foremost a homeland of British people, not Poles or other Slavs. If majority of Brits really does not want us mass immigrating into their country (either due to us increasing job market competition too much, or other reasons), we should respect their decision. I too would not be very keen on Brits mass immigrating into Slovakia, and that does not mean I hate them. Just like I would not like it if my neighbours lived inside my house, even if we have positive relationship between us.
The point is that immigration historically speaking is impossible to stop unless you want full blown japanese style isolationism and that worked out very well for the japanese in the long run. :rolleyes:
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A lot of what I'm seeing other places (and maybe here if I glossed over it) is 'Yea, there may have been lies about what the Leave group was saying and there's no real plan on what to do after, but Leave wasn't supposed to come up with a plan, only get us to this point. Now it's democracy time to do something!"
Can someone there back up/refute this? Is there more of less a shrugging of shoulders over what to do afterwards?
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A lot of what I'm seeing other places (and maybe here if I glossed over it) is 'Yea, there may have been lies about what the Leave group was saying and there's no real plan on what to do after, but Leave wasn't supposed to come up with a plan, only get us to this point. Now it's democracy time to do something!"
Can someone there back up/refute this? Is there more of less a shrugging of shoulders over what to do afterwards?
There has been a statement (anonymous and not officially confirmed (http://news.sky.com/video/1717859/islam-there-is-no-brexit-plan)) by a member of the Leave campaign that they do not have any plans for what to do after Brexit, because that's apparently Downing Street's job.
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Where was that? I could show it to anyone from Poland who thinks electing fascists and nationalists (and supporting people electing them in other countries) is a good idea. :)
Though I suppose we've gotten off lightly, they just want to deport us, not put us into concentration camps with the Muslims...
Like it or not, Britain is first and foremost a homeland of British people, not Poles or other Slavs. If majority of Brits really does not want us mass immigrating into their country (either due to us increasing job market competition too much, or other reasons), we should respect their decision. I too would not be very keen on Brits mass immigrating into Slovakia, and that does not mean I hate them. Just like I would not like it if my neighbours lived inside my house, even if we have positive relationship between us.
The point is that immigration historically speaking is impossible to stop unless you want full blown japanese style isolationism and that worked out very well for the japanese in the long run. :rolleyes:
Perfect solution fallacy. Just because you cannot stop 100% of the immigration (that wont be desirable anyway) does not mean there wont be any difference with stricter limits over status quo. Its a matter of degree.
Case in point: https://i.imgur.com/tORrfk6.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_border_barrier
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A lot of what I'm seeing other places (and maybe here if I glossed over it) is 'Yea, there may have been lies about what the Leave group was saying and there's no real plan on what to do after, but Leave wasn't supposed to come up with a plan, only get us to this point. Now it's democracy time to do something!"
Can someone there back up/refute this? Is there more of less a shrugging of shoulders over what to do afterwards?
There has been a statement (anonymous and not officially confirmed (http://news.sky.com/video/1717859/islam-there-is-no-brexit-plan)) by a member of the Leave campaign that they do not have any plans for what to do after Brexit, because that's apparently Downing Street's job.
That seems pretty stupid. Another stupid question, whats to stop the UK from having another vote on getting back in the EU (assuming they would let them back in)? Considering HSBC is rolling out because of it, I would expect more to follow maybe. At what point does England (since most everyone wanted to stay yea?) just begs for a redo?
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A lot of what I'm seeing other places (and maybe here if I glossed over it) is 'Yea, there may have been lies about what the Leave group was saying and there's no real plan on what to do after, but Leave wasn't supposed to come up with a plan, only get us to this point. Now it's democracy time to do something!"
Can someone there back up/refute this? Is there more of less a shrugging of shoulders over what to do afterwards?
There has been a statement (anonymous and not officially confirmed (http://news.sky.com/video/1717859/islam-there-is-no-brexit-plan)) by a member of the Leave campaign that they do not have any plans for what to do after Brexit, because that's apparently Downing Street's job.
That seems pretty stupid. Another stupid question, whats to stop the UK from having another vote on getting back in the EU (assuming they would let them back in)? Considering HSBC is rolling out because of it, I would expect more to follow maybe. At what point does England (since most everyone wanted to stay yea?) just begs for a redo?
there is already a petition to parliament which has reached the critical number of signatures for a revote do be discussed by select committee.
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That seems pretty stupid. Another stupid question, whats to stop the UK from having another vote on getting back in the EU (assuming they would let them back in)? Considering HSBC is rolling out because of it, I would expect more to follow maybe. At what point does England (since most everyone wanted to stay yea?) just begs for a redo?
Nothing at all. Except, of course that it would be political suicide: The UK political establishment hasn't quite grasped what an active and engaged voterbase actually means for their ability to maintain control. If they call for a revote, the long-term fallout will be a huge flood of voters heading towards UKIP or similarly unsavory places. If they call for a revote and they lose, nothing's changed and they're still ****ed, but no matter how you slice it: The accusation that a plebiscite will be redone again and again until the result the establishment wishes for will be hard to shake.
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Where was that? I could show it to anyone from Poland who thinks electing fascists and nationalists (and supporting people electing them in other countries) is a good idea. :)
Though I suppose we've gotten off lightly, they just want to deport us, not put us into concentration camps with the Muslims...
Like it or not, Britain is first and foremost a homeland of British people, not Poles or other Slavs. If majority of Brits really does not want us mass immigrating into their country (either due to us increasing job market competition too much, or other reasons), we should respect their decision. I too would not be very keen on Brits mass immigrating into Slovakia, and that does not mean I hate them. Just like I would not like it if my neighbours lived inside my house, even if we have positive relationship between us.
The point is that immigration historically speaking is impossible to stop unless you want full blown japanese style isolationism and that worked out very well for the japanese in the long run. :rolleyes:
Perfect solution fallacy. Just because you cannot stop 100% of the immigration (that wont be desirable anyway) does not mean there wont be any difference with stricter limits over status quo. Its a matter of degree.
Case in point: https://i.imgur.com/tORrfk6.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_border_barrier
Most of those guys haven't voted against irregulars or refugees, they voted against immigration as a whole, I've seen the same kind of bigotry in Switzerland with people lamenting that their universities were full of Germans (as in "professors from Germany") and that they should give swiss universities to the swiss.
Then there is the leftist crowd of marxist little ****s that don't want the EU becuase FIGHT THE POWAH!ONE!!11!!! which are almost worse.
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Meanwhile the stock market is sawing up and down like nothing before. Easy come, easy go.
Nope, just down. Every major index finished down. 2 trillion up in smoke, worst single day in history worldwide.
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there is already a petition to parliament which has reached the critical number of signatures for a revote do be discussed by select committee.
It's already gone past 3.5million sigs! And that's after the fraudulent ones were removed!
Biggest irony: That petition was put up by a Pro-Leave person; Like Farrage's previous demand for a 2nd re-do if the voting was close, which both are now ignoring or decrying as being hijacked by Pro-Remain people :lol:
The amount of double-standards in this whole thing has been pretty bad...
I do wonder what all the leave voters, that did so because of promises of tighter immigration or more money to the NHS, are feeling, now that Leave have said that immigration will probably remain at similar levels as they do now, and the NHS thing was a mistake... :lol:
Remain really should have been the default vote - We could hold another referendum to leave at any time in the future, but once we leave that's it, no backsies. If we wanted back in, we'd have to go through the whole application process, with none of the special treatment we worked so hard to negotiate in the past, like opting out of the Euro. That alone, I imagine, would be a massive deal breaker for most of us, and even if it wasn't we'd have to convince all the other members not to veto out application. Yeah...
Ah well, too late now unless Parliament want to risk a load of riots by going against the vote - They technically could as the vote is not legally binding, but I imagine if they did the backlash would tear the country apart.
Now we'll have to see how good a negotiating team we can build, since we're going to have to open negotiations with almost every trade partner pretty much from scratch, and without the bulk of having a load of other nations with us.
But heck, you never know, if we roll lots of 20's, we might even be able to get things almost as they were!
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It's funny how certain right wingers that probably still live on the assumption that the lower classes will use toilets for storage care so much about democracy.
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I'm becoming highly skeptical that the UK will survive as a nation if/when it triggers Article 50. If Scotland and Ireland don't flee prior to Article 50 being triggered, the chances of their departure go nowhere but up once 50 is triggered and the EU gets all the cards in the exit negotiations.
Did the Leave side have any idea what Europe is going to do to make an example of Britain on its way out the door?
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No, but then as has been pointed out, this was a post-factual vote. Nobody wanted to know what would really happen, they were too in love with the idea that they were Making A Difference and Taking Back Their Country From Filthy Continentials.
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I'll tell you what this whole thing is very interesting coming from a person who isn't involved or hasn't kept up with either side's reasons. I'm still kind of surprised it happened. This type of thing seems like it almost happens, but in the end doesn't.
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I'm becoming highly skeptical that the UK will survive as a nation if/when it triggers Article 50. If Scotland and Ireland don't flee prior to Article 50 being triggered, the chances of their departure go nowhere but up once 50 is triggered and the EU gets all the cards in the exit negotiations.
It won't. The SNP have already said that they're entitled to a second referendum on Scottish independence if major changes occurred (Such as Britain leaving the EU). Given how narrowly they lost last time, they're certain to win now and then go straight back into Europe. Ironically all the people who voted to "Make Britain Great Again" have only succeeded in its destruction.
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Well, that is far from certain at this point. Hell, it's not even certain they will even leave the union at all. Cameron should have immediately asked for the 50th to go right the day after, but he didn't. Boris went so far into saying that this wasn't probably even "necessary". What kind of ****ty doublespeak is this? These people seem to be on a situation way above their abilities to cope with. It writes itself almost like a dark comedy sketch.
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It doesn't benefit us to trigger the 50 immediately - That's one thing both sides agree on.
Cameron doesn't want to have anything to do with it, so he's deliberately leaving it up to whoever takes over from him so they get all the credit if it goes tits up.
I suspect Boris wants more time to get some informal negotiations going so that if he becomes PM then things won't automatically go down the ****ter.
I think you're right that the probability of Scotland voting to split is high now, but I don't think that vote will come up for a good few more years; If the gov are smart and also get some good negotiations down then they may change their minds tho', so there's some time for that. Scots can have long angry memories tho' and they have loud crazy ultra nationalist types just like we do so there may not be enough that can be done.
The noises from Europe are interesting; Some are mega pissed and want us out now with maximum shafting, but surprisingly a few (Notably Germany, Poland and Estonia, for some reason) have called for the rest to 'go easy on us' during negotiations.
France sounds apocalyptically pissed; They are already threatening to just let through all the migrants they've got bottled up on their side of the tunnel for us to expend resources to deal with instead of them.
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Nope, just down. Every major index finished down. 2 trillion up in smoke, worst single day in history worldwide.
That's actually not necessarily a bad thing. It's about time the financial industry has to shed that excessive bloat. And from what I heard from my investor friends, they are actually planning to buy right now. What goes down tends to get back up, and given the EU calling the shots, turmoil and see-sawing of the indexes are almost guaranteed. It's almost a capital investor's wet dream. Just like Greece was.
The reason France is mega pissed is partially historical and also related to the UK negotiations with the EU. Moderate stance is the one that gains in this case, Germany is looking for the financial sector growth in Frankfurt, and has nothing against France spoiling its chances. Additional thing is, the EU imports more stuff to the UK than the UK exports to the EU. This is already progressing to a game of capturing as much of those UK markets as possible before the others get there. EDIT: Oh and of course, it can't look like the EU is actually punishing the UK, as that would likely feed the get-out-of-EU movement. But then again, it's not possible that UK gets the benefits and pays nothing as that would certainly trigger more departures. This will some tight-rope walking thing the EU now has to do to pull this off successfully in the eyes of the citizens. I'm looking forward to seeing our members of parliament wriggle themselves out of this mess. Those who don't know, I've been working with some EU bureaucrats and tend to know the sort of bunch they are - the time of happy go lucky management jobs in the EU is now officially over.
Let's watch what the UK parliament does. Given the possibility that the United Kingdom becomes disbanded, there's a chance they will still ignore the referendum based on this. From where I'm standing, I would understand that this is not so good thing, and perhaps it might be a good idea to not do what was voted.
[Sigh] European Politics are depressing, closest thing coming to mind is having sharks as pets in a small swimming pool. As long as they are fed, the situation remains somewhat stable. But forget to feed them even once, it won't take long they are at each other's throats. With next to forty countries bickering with each other, and older European countries still living in that bygone grandeur, one has to wonder whether this can ever change?
I'm sort of flattered that Scotland wants to become a Nordic Country. Aye lads, by all means! They at least have the right attitude :lol:
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remind me mika you were the one who was glad that the terrorists hit brussels because it's a seat of EU power, yes?
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That's actually not necessarily a bad thing. It's about time the financial industry has to shed that excessive bloat. And from what I heard from my investor friends, they are actually planning to buy right now.
You've only confirmed you have no idea what you are talking about by posting this. Do not reenter this conversation until you have learned enough to not make a fool of yourself.
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Don't act like Brexit is the only one responsible for the markets. The continued tantrums of Remainers calling for additional votes until they win is perpetuating the uncertainty of the original vote.
I'm becoming highly skeptical that the UK will survive as a nation if/when it triggers Article 50. If Scotland and Ireland don't flee prior to Article 50 being triggered, the chances of their departure go nowhere but up once 50 is triggered and the EU gets all the cards in the exit negotiations.
Did the Leave side have any idea what Europe is going to do to make an example of Britain on its way out the door?
Does the EU have any idea what Britain will do if they're made into an example on the way out the door?
Germany should, considering they were on the receiving end of the Treaty of Versailles, and we all know how that turned out.
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Don't act like Brexit is the only one responsible for the markets
I'm talking about Friday, alone, no other day. There was no uncertainty about Remain then, only the horrible certainty that Leave had won the vote.
It's amusing, I suppose, to watch the effort to deny that Leave was responsible for what happened when they won.
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Don't act like Brexit is the only one responsible for the markets
I'm talking about Friday, alone, no other day. There was no uncertainty about Remain then, only the horrible certainty that Leave had won the vote.
It's amusing, I suppose, to watch the effort to deny that Leave was responsible for what happened when they won.
There absolutely was uncertainty. Uncertainty over the legal power of the referendum, uncertainty over the next steps, uncertainty over the renegotiation of trade agreements, uncertainty over the impact on the rest of Europe.
Voting to leave took the UK into uncharted waters, and the markets responded with due anxiety. But that's it; there are no businessmen foaming at the mouth swearing to make the UK suffer for its decision, only the knee-jerk reaction always elicited by change.
My concern is that Remainers will prevent the natural recovery by keeping a gigantic question mark over the decision with their demands for additional referendums or the dismissal of the result as non-legally binding.
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Yeah, let's avoid blaming the fact that it is increasingly obvious that the Leave camp hadn't got a clue what to do if they won. Let's blame the Remain camp instead.
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Yeah, let's avoid blaming the fact that it is increasingly obvious that the Leave camp hadn't got a clue what to do if they won. Let's blame the Remain camp instead.
Let's ignore that's what the remain camp has been saying all along and that the leave camp dubbed it "Project fear", too!
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Yeah, let's avoid blaming the fact that it is increasingly obvious that the Leave camp hadn't got a clue what to do if they won. Let's blame the Remain camp instead.
So we just absolve the Remain-dominated government of not having a contingency plan for a vote that they knew would be close at best?
But clearly the people are the bad guys for not voting the way the Government wants, not the government for failing to represent its people.
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Yeah, let's avoid blaming the fact that it is increasingly obvious that the Leave camp hadn't got a clue what to do if they won. Let's blame the Remain camp instead.
So we just absolve the Remain-dominated government of not having a contingency plan for a vote that they knew would be close at best?
There was a contigency plan: Abdicating to the people who wanted to leave. Why would you want to let the remain-camp take the decisions when it comes to leaving? The remain camp wants to stay, and if you let them handle it you'd end up with a UK that has left the EU in name only.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect that someone who campaigns for a policy also has a rough idea on how to implement that policy - otherwise, that person would simply not know what they are talking about.
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Meanwhile, Boris Johnson finds a new definition of "not being in the EU" that translates to "being in the EU":
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cl75gwCVYAAE0pP.jpg)
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So it's basically the EEA.
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That's actually not necessarily a bad thing. It's about time the financial industry has to shed that excessive bloat. And from what I heard from my investor friends, they are actually planning to buy right now.
You've only confirmed you have no idea what you are talking about by posting this. Do not reenter this conversation until you have learned enough to not make a fool of yourself.
TBH this topic is a sorcery to me and I have no idea how does this thing work. So maybe you will explain <simply, if possible> why did he "fool himself" instead of just bashing Mika :doubt:? Much appreciated.
BTW. I talked to my friend who studies IT in UK. There was quite a turmoil among foreign students, that university had to calm everybody down by sending emails explaining that everything remains unchanged. Mostly in terms of student loans, bills etc.
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I'm going to try.
That's actually not necessarily a bad thing. It's about time the financial industry has to shed that excessive bloat. And from what I heard from my investor friends, they are actually planning to buy right now. What goes down tends to get back up, and given the EU calling the shots, turmoil and see-sawing of the indexes are almost guaranteed. It's almost a capital investor's wet dream. Just like Greece was.
There is an argument to be made that the financial sector is bloated far in excess of the actual value it provides to society, but that's not one to be made here or now. The problem is that, if a shrinkage is necessary, it is better to shrink gradually than in a short sharp drop. And while we're committed to anticapitalist daydreams, capitalists snapping up businesses for bargain-bin prices should not fill us with joy.
Finally, the financial sector is one of the UK's primary economic drivers. If it crashes and departs for Frankfurt or Paris, the british recession will get much worse, and the Leave campaigns promises of greater economic freedom will evaporate.
The reason France is mega pissed is partially historical and also related to the UK negotiations with the EU. Moderate stance is the one that gains in this case, Germany is looking for the financial sector growth in Frankfurt, and has nothing against France spoiling its chances. Additional thing is, the EU imports more stuff to the UK than the UK exports to the EU. This is already progressing to a game of capturing as much of those UK markets as possible before the others get there.
Mika is confusing things here. The UK running a trde deficit against the rest of the EU is a bad thing when the UK leaves. For any single EU country, the loss of the UK market is not exactly good, but it's not backbreaking either. For the UK, reliant as it is on free traffic of wares and raw materials, tariffs would put an enormous brake on the economy.
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Yeah, let's avoid blaming the fact that it is increasingly obvious that the Leave camp hadn't got a clue what to do if they won. Let's blame the Remain camp instead.
So we just absolve the Remain-dominated government of not having a contingency plan for a vote that they knew would be close at best?
But clearly the people are the bad guys for not voting the way the Government wants, not the government for failing to represent its people.
So my previous question does hold some water then after. It's like if these guys voted for free ponies for everyone and then got mad when the government didn't do it. You'd think they'd want their guys doing the thing they wanted themselves but apparently that sounds like work so we'll make the other guys do it. I suppose the next step is complaining they aren't doing it.
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From my FB feed from one of my friends and their friend, thought you might find it interesting:
Let's accept as a reasonable premise that Brexit will likely inaugurate the disintegration of the EU (a fate perhaps inevitable given Greece etc., but now likely to come much sooner rather than later), which will in turn lead to greater destabilization of the global order (such as it is). But: is not contempt for democracy and its results when one is on the losing side exactly the kind of attitude the people who voted Leave were concerned about? It certainly does not inspire confidence in those are worried about the undemocratic nature of the EU to have their losing opponents say, "well, you're an idiot so your vote shouldn't count," which is the basic gist of many responses I've seen. Is there not something both ugly and ironic in the idea that only idiots would have supported Brexit? This is the same rhetoric used everywhere by elites and their parties against any populist opposition. It's funny because it betrays such a basic psychological deafness: what people want is recognition (especially in the Hegelian sense: I don't just mean some formal political process) and some basic respect. The refusal to bestow this, which in no way means acceding to their demands or agreeing with them politically, followed by contempt for their uneducated, non-urban situation, is exactly what fuels their resentment in the first place. We live in such a narrow-minded, half-witted political climate that probably the reader by now thinks I support Brexit, merely because I can respect people who oppose me and think offering them contempt is a good way to render any concilation forever impossible."well, you're an idiot so your vote shouldn't count" - is a principle that has in one way or another always underlied "democracy," ever since that illusory idea expressed itself in Ancient Greece. People forget that the "democratic" Greeks of old did not allow the majority of their population to vote, reserving this right for the small percentage of the landowning males only. It is hard to imagine Brexit causing any significant dissolution of the EU. Too much corporate interest is involved in keeping that market as some kind of totality. The world seems to be returning back to imperial politics of the 19th century and for Europe to compete, it simply must be a unit. What is likely to happen in the next 5-7 years then, is that the Brussels' grip on the European elites will need to get even more ruthless. That "referendum" in England was a strange one. I don't think it would even happen if Cameron did not initiate it. Then why did he initiate it only to run around advocating against it? Was that meant to be a threat to Brussels that simply went a bit too far? If Brexit is part of the war of the elites, some new Brussels "agreement" will need to be reached. More cash will need to be spilled to buy out the local elites, and then some of the recalcitrant [greedier] sons of their nations, especially in countries like Hungry and Poland, will need to go to jail for "corruption." As far as the EU hoi polloi...in the next decade they will be drinking way more beer, watching way more football, or when football is not in season, they will be riveted by 24/7 coverage of some terrorist attack. Nothing unites a diverse group more than a common threat! The relationship between Brussels and the U.S. is what is super interesting to watch in the next few years. TTIP will both force EU to become an even tighter unit, but also turn it into a substructure of American corporate interest in ways that could not possibly make all the EU elites happy.
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Yeah, let's avoid blaming the fact that it is increasingly obvious that the Leave camp hadn't got a clue what to do if they won. Let's blame the Remain camp instead.
Let's ignore that's what the remain camp has been saying all along and that the leave camp dubbed it "Project fear", too!
So, if people say "don't touch the fire because it burns" it means they are using fear to not let you do something thus it's completely illegitimate?
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I haven't seen too many people say "You're an idiot so your vote shouldn't count" Unless I'm missing a lot. Possible since I'm not deep in UK politics. What I have seen a lot of is "You're an idiot and you voted wrong" either because it was against their interests, or they voted as a joke, or didn't know what they were voting for etc etc.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and mine is those people are kinda dumb. But hey each their own and all that jazz. But people who say they shouldn't count, or shouldn't be allowed to vote are equally dumb. You either work towards getting those people on the same page as you, or accept that half your country is dumb, like we have over here.
PS. I believe you if you say people are saying they don't count. Some yahoo on FB saying it doesn't trump the previous lines in my opinion.
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So, if people say "don't touch the fire because it burns" it means they are using fear to not let you do something thus it's completely illegitimate?
"Project Fear" was a very real strategy the Remain camp was running for a time. It was a completely stupid tactic. That's not to say that reality checks aren't a good thing in a campaign like this, but if your message centers around "if we leave, everything will be ****ed" instead of "if we stay, we can do more good", your message is bull****.
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So, if people say "don't touch the fire because it burns" it means they are using fear to not let you do something thus it's completely illegitimate?
"Project Fear" was a very real strategy the Remain camp was running for a time. It was a completely stupid tactic. That's not to say that reality checks aren't a good thing in a campaign like this, but if your message centers around "if we leave, everything will be ****ed" instead of "if we stay, we can do more good", your message is bull****.
I really need to stop prefacing my posts with "I'm not as well versed and these are outsider perspectives" so maybe I'll just post a US flag or whatever to proclaim my ignorance.
Anyways! Not knowing the future and all, if they leave, and everything is ****ed, isn't that a proper message? If one side is saying everything will be rainbows and ponies if we leave, I'm not sure how well "If we stay, we'll have more rainbows and ponies" would work. If the country turns down into a recession or worse, you can't turn to them and say "Yea you were right, but you didn't have to be so mean about it"
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Even if you think the financial sector is bloated or whatever and don't care about market indices, the pound crashing and interest rates falling to zero or possibly even negative are absolutely terrible in themselves.
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So, if people say "don't touch the fire because it burns" it means they are using fear to not let you do something thus it's completely illegitimate?
"Project Fear" was a very real strategy the Remain camp was running for a time. It was a completely stupid tactic. That's not to say that reality checks aren't a good thing in a campaign like this, but if your message centers around "if we leave, everything will be ****ed" instead of "if we stay, we can do more good", your message is bull****.
No it isn't, if you are telling the truth it's by definition not bull****.
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Gonna say in wake of the Brexit, good on Britain.
The EU should get a clear message to clean up its act than remain a waggling stick for German/French grand-standing and remain focused on clearing up economic matters. If there's one thing I cracked up at is the overall fear and paranoia fired out on both sides of the Remain and Leave camp - everything from racism, feminazis, to World War 3 were brought up. If Britain chooses to leave and its done by referendum... welp, that's democracy in action.
There's nothing inherently wrong with choosing to stay or leave, as both ends of the spectrum are running around screaming.
Whether Britain's choice is a good one, only time will tell. They've cut themselves off from from an economic frontier, but in return, have chosen to take their own matters. It isn't stupid, but I think time will tell us how Britain will sink or swim.
Love or hate the UKIP Party or NIgel Farage, I think this is a sorta of an entertaining farce. At least the one net positive to this is you Brits getting rid of Cameron.
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There's nothing inherently wrong with choosing to stay or leave, as both ends of the spectrum are running around screaming.
What's this even supposed to mean? How can you have "ends of the spectrum" in a dichotomy?
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remind me mika you were the one who was glad that the terrorists hit brussels because it's a seat of EU power, yes?
I was happy they struck Bruxelles because then the EU bureaucrats got literally into the line of fire themselves. This is not something that usually happens to the politicians, and tends to hammer out a few kinks of the corkscrews and perhaps instate a little bit of common sense too. So they got to live with the results of their own immigration agenda for once. That's a win in my books. It didn't happen in some distant member state, it happened to them!
That's actually not necessarily a bad thing. It's about time the financial industry has to shed that excessive bloat. And from what I heard from my investor friends, they are actually planning to buy right now.
You've only confirmed you have no idea what you are talking about by posting this. Do not reenter this conversation until you have learned enough to not make a fool of yourself.
The sheer brilliance of this is snow-blinding! With this razor sharp analysis I'd better find some Quickplast to those cuts!
I suppose you know how well the financial industry and real industry mix together? Or the effect of the UK housing prices towards creating new jobs?
To make a couple of things clear to start with:
a) Have you actually ever been in EU?
b) Have you ever been in the UK?
c) Have you ever worked in the EU?
d) Have you ever worked in the UK?
e) Have you ever worked for the EU?
The answer is yes to all five from my part. Bear in mind my family has ran banking business for a generation. Not my generation, but you tend to pick up some useful stuff... My advise would be to think before posting next time.
There is an argument to be made that the financial sector is bloated far in excess of the actual value it provides to society, but that's not one to be made here or now. The problem is that, if a shrinkage is necessary, it is better to shrink gradually than in a short sharp drop. And while we're committed to anticapitalist daydreams, capitalists snapping up businesses for bargain-bin prices should not fill us with joy.
Finally, the financial sector is one of the UK's primary economic drivers. If it crashes and departs for Frankfurt or Paris, the british recession will get much worse, and the Leave campaigns promises of greater economic freedom will evaporate.
The E's answer warrants a reply as well. You exactly made the connection to what I was saying. However, I dispute that the financial sector bloat is not relevant. It is very highly so. The problem with gradual shrinking to begin with is that it simply will not happen. It just wont - every single time it has been suggested and attempted in history, the rich part of the society has never given in to what is essentially a reduction of their status (be it measured in money or anything else). To make it simple, how many Deutsche Bank CEOs have been fired due to their involvement in loaning to Greece before that crisis started? The answer would be "none, because they did not break the law", right?
Thus there are two real world options left to reboot the economy: re-distribute the wealth (tends to be violent), and as second, the stock market meltdowns. In this perspective, the meltdown should be seen as a good thing, if handled well, this will prevent the violent re-distribution. Yes, some period of time will be tight, but as the demand gradually picks up, this will stabilize the system to a sustainable level.
Those greedy capitalists capturing the cheap stocks prevents the stock market from melting more! It's part of the corrective movement. Yes, some elitists have likely dropped because of this, but that's class migration for you. But this was actually supposed to happen, right?
Well, then back to the question on how this is relevant to the UK. Well, the financial sector has resided in London City for quite some time. Given the nowadays way how it works, one of the areas the financial sector readily engages is the housing (another is insurances as that is easily expandable business without a big need for infrastructure), as this is a basic need everyone must have and selling houses does not actually require big infrastructure. Due to intertwining of loaning and housing industry, it is possible to drive up the housing costs, while the loan times can be extended. For a normal person buying house, he will see low interest rate and a relatively large loan. No biggie, he thinks as there's years to make up for this from his perspective. However, this is not the most ideal thing from the government's perspective that is detached from the financial industry. That money that the guy is now paying for the house could have been used to buy something else. Also, the guy is shafted if the interest rate picks up. The bank is not even if several loaners default, as then the taxpayers will be forced to monetize the bank (usually without getting shares because somehow that would just be plain old socialism, right?).
Now, people are paying nearly a million pounds for a house that's 300 years old. And not only is it 300 years old, it's been given a museum status (intended to increase the perceived prestige of the house), preventing any cheap repairs on it. So in the end, London City is the most expensive place in the Europe, but it's the most expensive place because the snobs have said so, and if you can't afford it, then you ain't a snob. Regardless of how rotten or non-functioning your 300 year old mansion is.
Given the 10 % drops in the indexes, surprisingly little has happened as of yet. But let's see till the beginning of next week.
I suppose I'll have to write of the import export balance some other day. It's 3 o'clock in the morning, and the sun rise seems to be taking place. If I don't go to bed now there wont be training tomorrow.
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is there a single UK citizen here who voted leave? are the demographics so ****ed that a majority of the UK is not represented?
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remind me mika you were the one who was glad that the terrorists hit brussels because it's a seat of EU power, yes?
I was happy they struck Bruxelles because then the EU bureaucrats got literally into the line of fire themselves. This is not something that usually happens to the politicians, and tends to hammer out a few kinks of the corkscrews and perhaps instate a little bit of common sense too. So they got to live with the results of their own immigration agenda for once. That's a win in my books. It didn't happen in some distant member state, it happened to them!
... What the actual **** is wrong with you?
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Nothing. The EU bureaucrats seem to be fairly detached from the actual reality their policies create. This is one case where they got to feel the results of their decisions on their own skin, not see it in the numbers. Normally, someone getting bombed would not be anything to be happy about, but in this case, it might work out for the better. EU politicians are, for most part, either morons or deluded, in both cases a direct hit against them might make some of them think (it doesn't seem to have actually done much in that regard, though). Mika probably knows best (having worked for those dolts), though intelligent people in Poland, especially those old enough to remember Warsaw Pact, have been saying this for quite a while.
I wonder what it'll take to make them realize that maybe accepting all those refugees into EU wasn't such a good idea. I bet some will still defend this after they're kicked out in favor of a guy with a toothbrush mustache...
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Nothing. The EU bureaucrats seem to be fairly detached from the actual reality their policies create. This is one case where they got to feel the results of their decisions on their own skin, not see it in the numbers. Normally, someone getting bombed would not be anything to be happy about, but in this case, it might work out for the better.
Jesus Christ, what the **** is wrong with you?
First, look at how many actual EU institutions were attacked. Then make really sure you have looked closely, because the answer is NONE. These attacks did NOTHING, not a single thing, to impact the EU bureaucracy, and they're more an indictment against belgian law enforcement than an indictment against EU immigration policy.
Thirdly, you are openly advocating for terror attacks as an effective way to make political statements. Words fail me to describe how utterly stupid that stance is. You're saying that these people working for the EU, most of which are not in any shape or form evil or bad persons, deserve to be the victims of terror attacks because of the place they work at.
Get this through your head: Terror attacks never hit the "right" people. They always end up making everything worse.
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Well, seeing as how Germany has handled the immigrant mess, the EU isn't in any better shape.
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The answer is yes to all five from my part.
Guess what? Those are utterly irrelevant to the fact that you don't know **** about how financial markets work and everything you said about them was so incredibly wrong that should have resulted in your exit from the conversation.
It's telling that you don't even argue a single qualification for why I was wrong about the actual part I quoted; all of your statements about how you know **** are about something totally different from your assertion that market correction was necessary or that buying was either somehow unexpected in this situation, desirable given your stated agendas, or otherwise somehow interesting.
And they still reveal you know nothing. Your appeal to some unverifiable qualifications you possess is undermined entirely by the fact you turn around and spew incredible ignorance about the things you're claiming you should have special understanding of. The reason every recent Islamic terrorist incident inside the EU has originated in Brussels somehow has everything to do with poor Belgian law enforcement and an amazingly anti-integration attitude only matched by the Scandinavian countries which were so eager to pat themselves on the back about how fair they were without actually having a minority population worth mentioning to test the hypothesis. (Unsurprisingly, when tested against the reality of having to actually cope with brown people now, they've failed miserably.)
It has nothing to do with the EU. The attacks themselves have come nowhere near anything to do with the EU either. Why should they? You seem to think the EU is facilitating them, it would behoove the attackers to do nothing to hurt it. Parts of your worldview are openly, obviously in conflict with other parts, but you want us to ignore this and take you seriously, rather than treat it as the poorly considered racist mess it actually is.
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NGTM-1R, you are not the arbiter of who can and cannot participate in this thread. Stop demanding that Mika "exit this conversation". If you want to post in an echo chamber, go start a subreddit.
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NGTM-1R, you are not the arbiter of who can and cannot participate in this thread. Stop demanding that Mika "exit this conversation". If you want to post in an echo chamber, go start a subreddit.
Really? You're looking at a thread where people are literally celebrating terrorism and you go after NGTM?
Sorry for sounding like a broken record here but... What the actual **** is wrong with you?
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That quote was directed specifically at NGTM-1R.
If you're referring to your report of Mika's post, Mika was expressing satisfaction that the EU bureaucrats are reaping the results of their own policies: "So they got to live with the results of their own immigration agenda for once." That is a very far cry from "celebrating the murder of belgian civilians" as you put it.
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No it isn't, if you are telling the truth it's by definition not bull****.
Except when it is. The problem in this campaign was that the people who were loudest about the economic risks of leaving were the very same bankers and industry fat cats whose downfall people like Mika actually celebrate. Nothing what they said was untrue, but merely the fact of them saying it made some people consider giving them a black eye for it. As such, pointing out the bad things that would happen post-Brexit was counterproductive, as the consequences were not as viscerally real to the voters as, for example, the Leave campaigns' pointing towards the polish people taking away all the jobs was.
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This thread is bonkers. People revelling in the murder of others because that might hammer some sense into their skulls? Yeah, that totally works out. I won't advise anything to Dragon because I don't really wanna be banned here so that's all I'll say, other than aggressively shake my head. ... wait. Now I've this terrible headache.
Anyways, the other bonkers thing I've read here is less inhuman, but way stupider, the notion that market crashes redistribute the wealth. No, it ****ing doesn't. Since 2008, inequality has shot up, not down. And it's easy to guess why. Who has the power isn't going to let the machinery take the wealth from them. If the machinery is gonna bankrupt them, they will fleece everyone around them until they at least manage to not go bankrupt. When they look around afterwards, we see all the poor people completely hopeless, unemployed, without social security nets that had to be cut down because "people were living way beyond their possiblities", and other cretinous propaganda clichés.
So that's basically what happened. When all the german banks survived the Greek crisis (for they were the ones who were "bailed out", not the Greeks), afterwards we get to look at the greek children starving at the school doors. It's so ****ing criminal it makes you want to bomb the **** out of Brussels. Until you get your senses back and realise those are people too.
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Yeah, exactly. It is never the big banks who suffer, or the people running them. It's always the people at the bottom end of the economy that get hit hardest.
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The point when someone says "I'm glad country x had a terrorist attack" is the point when they get to go away for some time. It's merely a question of how long at this point.
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Here's Farage in the European Parliament today (http://news.sky.com/story/1718503/farage-tells-meps-youre-not-laughing-now). Funny how he says the UK wants its fishing rights back, wasn't he supposed to be negotiating that?
(Also, Farage, like Mika in this very thread, has no idea what a trade imbalance means for negotiations)
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(comments removed to preserve integrity of goober's fascist safe space)
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That quote was directed specifically at NGTM-1R.
If you're referring to your report of Mika's post, Mika was expressing satisfaction that the EU bureaucrats are reaping the results of their own policies: That is a very far cry from "celebrating the murder of belgian civilians" as you put it.
Considering that mika and dragon consider the murder of belgian civilians a result of their own policies, no. It's very much the same. If my argument had at some point been "I am glad 9/11 happened because it showed the US how destructive their middle eastern politics were" I very much doubt that you would object to any "Get the **** out" response, especially in 2001. It is, quite frankly, the only response that can be expected from someone who is not a complete psychopath.
EDIT: And the middle east politics and 9/11 atleast have some sort of demented connection, whilst Dragon's statement
I wonder what it'll take to make them realize that maybe accepting all those refugees into EU wasn't such a good idea.
is completely idiotic. Unless you'd think that accepting syrian refugees is somehow so enraging to belgian-born muslims that they are justified in bombing airports, in which case the only echo chamber is you.
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You can totally see that John Oliver is sooo not sarcastically almost aneurism-levels enraged in here:
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Unless you'd think that accepting syrian refugees is somehow so enraging to belgian-born muslims that they are justified in bombing airports.
Well, it enraged plenty of Belgians and non-Belgians already, Muslim or not (admittedly, the most annoyed ones are those who'd been there for a while and might be too civilized to blow things up). It doesn't really justify them (to be absolutely clear, I think that the terrorists in question deserve to die a horrible death), but if that's what it takes to beat some sense into the EU government, so be it. The sinking of Lusitania also ended up benefiting the world in the long run, spurring the US to intervene in a war that could've otherwise gone on for much longer, with causalities far in excess of 2000 or so people on board the ocean liner.
9/11 certainly wasn't comparable. If anything, the US policy in the Middle East got worse after that. Previously it wasn't the best, but afterwards they made an absolute mess of things. Though I do wonder sometimes what would have happened if instead of the towers, the planes hit their intended targets (which seem to have been the US government buildings).
This thread is bonkers. People revelling in the murder of others because that might hammer some sense into their skulls? Yeah, that totally works out.
Would you rather see a bunch people die to open the eyes of the rest, or a lot of people die because someone didn't get sense hammered into his skull? That's the way I see it. It might be cold-hearted and borderline sociopathic thing to say, but ultimately, I see it as a matter of choosing the lesser evil. Most Westerners seem to lack the ability to see that lesser evil is sometimes the only good choice (and unlike in TV, there's seldom a good "third option"), which is a big part of how we got into this fix in the first place.
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It's not "borderline" sociopathic. Your analysis is not only irrational, it is inhuman. Your ideas are fascistic and obnoxious, your rationale pretentious and uncaring, your tone condescending and snobbish, your worldview, regurgitating material.
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It might be cold-hearted and borderline sociopathic thing to say
No, Dragon. For all you would like to role-play as the daring, cool, hard-headed realist, your opinion here is as it usually is: sheltered and completely ****ing ignorant.
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And the European Parliament has apparently made up its mind and wishes to get this over with quickly (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+TA+P8-TA-2016-0294+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN&language=EN):
The European Parliament,
– having regard to Rule 123(2) of its Rules of Procedure,
1. Takes note of the wish of the citizens of the United Kingdom to leave the EU; points out that the will expressed by the people must be entirely and fully respected, starting with the activation of Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union (TEU) as soon as possible;
2. Stresses that this is a critical moment for the EU: the interests and expectations of the Union’s citizens must be brought back to the centre of the debate; the European project must be relaunched now;
3. Stresses that the will of the majority of the citizens of the United Kingdom should be respected via a swift and coherent implementation of the withdrawal procedure;
4. Points out that negotiations under Article 50 TEU concerning the UK’s withdrawal from the EU must begin as soon as formal notification has been communicated;
5. Warns that in order to prevent damaging uncertainty for everyone and to protect the Union’s integrity, the notification stipulated in Article 50 TEU must take place as soon as possible; expects the UK Prime Minister to notify the outcome of the referendum to the European Council of 28-29 June 2016; this notification will launch the withdrawal procedure;
6. Recalls that the settlement agreed by the heads of state or government in February 2016 stipulated that it would only enter into force if the UK decided to stay in the EU; it is therefore null and void;
7. Recalls that any new relationship between the UK and the EU may not be agreed before the conclusion of the withdrawal agreement;
8. Recalls that the consent of the European Parliament is required under the Treaties, and that it must be fully involved at all stages of the various procedures concerning the withdrawal agreement and any future relationship;
9. Invites the Council to appoint the Commission as negotiator on Article 50 TEU;
10. Stresses that the current challenges require reflection on the future of the EU: there is a need to reform the Union and make it better and more democratic; notes that while some Member States may choose to integrate more slowly or to a lesser extent, the core of the EU must be reinforced and à la carte solutions should be avoided; considers that the need to promote our common values, provide stability, social justice, sustainability, growth and jobs, overcome persistent economic and social uncertainty, protect citizens and address the challenge of migration requires developing and democratising, in particular, the Economic and Monetary Union and the area of freedom, security and justice, as well as strengthening the common foreign and security policy; considers therefore that the reforms must result in a Union which delivers what citizens expect;
11. Calls for a roadmap for a better Union based on exploiting the Lisbon Treaty to the full, to be completed by a revision of the Treaties;
12. Will enact changes in its internal organisation to reflect the will of a majority of the citizens of the United Kingdom to withdraw from the European Union;
13. Takes note of the UK Commissioner’s resignation and the relocation of his portfolio;
14. Calls on the Council to change the order of its Presidencies to prevent the process of withdrawal from jeopardising the management of the day-to-day business of the Union;
15. Instructs its President to forward this resolution to the European Council, the Council, the Commission, the European Central Bank, the national parliaments and the Government of the UK.
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(http://i.imgur.com/gxtiipr.jpg)
Seriously disappointed by this sorry state of affairs. Let me start by saying I trust you know who you are when I say…
Some of you need to think long and hard about how you talk about others.
People have died.
Regardless of the political, social, religious or other reasons this is always a tragedy. Show some damn respect. There are users from all corners of the planet on this forum – who knows who may have been affected or knows someone close who has been.
Some of you need to think long and hard about how you talk about others.
This is still a moderated forum and some of the open, personal attacks here are just as unwelcome as any hate-speech or lack of respect for the dead. This place is not 4chan or some other unmoderated hole where people can cuss at each other as much as they please.
If you have an issue with what someone has said, report what they’ve said and see if it is dealt with. If you can’t do anything but make personal attacks then your comments are in all likelihood just as unwelcome as those you’re replying to in the first place.
Keep it clean people. Play nice.
No bans this time, just sort it the hell out okay?
Hell, I’m British and this BREXIT crap and the cultural powder keg that goes with it are bad enough as it is.
Just calm the **** down and discuss it politely, if you want to discuss it at all. Otherwise go someplace else.
Edit / Update: Also, please don't report posts from this thread now that it has been locked. The matter is closed - move on.
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No bans this time, just sort it the hell out okay?
Actually, I've already said bans are being handed out. The issue under debate at the time was how long. So Dragon and Mika get a week off.