[Sandwich]

Shooting attack in Be'er Sheba 30 mins ago: http://www.timesofisrael.com/october-18-2015-liveblog/

6 injured in shooting and stabbing attack in Beersheba; at least 1 attacker killed

One person critically wounded, 5 moderately injured in attack at central bus station in southern city; 2 assailants said to open fire, then stab people in two different areas in building

[karajorma]

The point I wanted to make was that if I want to correct an erroneous, off-topic statement, I can do so and then go right back to the original topic of the thread.[/u] If I'm in a conversation with someone about knitting, and someone else runs up yelling that the sky is red when it's actually blue, I'll darn well look up, see that the sky blue, tell them they're wrong if I darn well choose to, and go right back to talking about knitting.

And then someone will point out its almost sunset and the sky is actually red for the most part and you'll both argue about how much of the sky is red cause you're looking up and he's looking at the horizon.

You didn't simply post fact, you editorialised when you should have simply got the thread back on topic. I don't think anyone would have complained had you only done that. Admin or not you have the right to choose what you want your post to be about. But what you don't have the right to do is to post a bunch of stuff that is off-topic and then demand that everyone ignores it and goes back to what you want to talk about. If you want to talk about double standards, that's a massive one right there.

Wow.  What a bunch of horse ****.  Sandwich is NOT the one who started the thread down this path.  Sandwich makes post about living in the midst of awfulness.  A few posts go by, but it doesn't take long for the Israel blaming to start.  And then the full out bashing.  Just like EVERY OTHER GODDAMN TIME **** flares up over there and Sandwich posts about it.

And he was welcome to continue on the actual topic. I actually supported him when Turambar tried to drag the topic off-course the first time and said I'd kick people off the thread then next time they did it. But if he's going to drag the thread off-topic himself, it would be a massive double standard to have actually carried through on that.

[Sandwich]

...you should have simply got the thread back on topic. ... But what you don't have the right to do is to post a bunch of stuff that is off-topic and then demand that everyone ignores it and goes back to what you want to talk about.

I demanded? No, Kara - it was you (and rightfully so!) who came closest to "demanding" the thread remain on-topic. My "demand" to get back on-topic was:

[buncha off-topic stuff only vaguely related to the issue at hand, and then...]

Anyway, how'd we get off on this tangent to begin with? This thread is about the current wave of Palestinian terror (mostly stabbings, but also some shootings and rock-throwings), and y'all's attempts to figure out how to justify murder.

A question and a statement. No demands.

Don't put words in my mouth.

[Grizzly]

Glad to hear it. Where are the international calls condemning the Palestinians for all these violent acts of murder and attempted murder?

Currently I haven't seen much. Have there been any international calls condemning the Israelians for the recent violent acts of murder and attempted murder?

[karajorma]

No one is condemning the Palestinians for being violent for the same reason no one blames the sea for being wet. That's just what it is and it's not going to change any time soon.

It's a huge mistake to assume the fact that people don't waste their breath condemning criminals and terrorists for committing crimes and terrorism as being in any way support of their actions.

...you should have simply got the thread back on topic. ... But what you don't have the right to do is to post a bunch of stuff that is off-topic and then demand that everyone ignores it and goes back to what you want to talk about.

I demanded? No, Kara - it was you (and rightfully so!) who came closest to "demanding" the thread remain on-topic. My "demand" to get back on-topic was:

[buncha off-topic stuff only vaguely related to the issue at hand, and then...]

Anyway, how'd we get off on this tangent to begin with? This thread is about the current wave of Palestinian terror (mostly stabbings, but also some shootings and rock-throwings), and y'all's attempts to figure out how to justify murder.

A question and a statement. No demands.

Don't put words in my mouth.

As an admin, asking people to get back on topic carries more weight than as a regular user. If you weren't demanding and it was a simple request, my mistake.

But if that's the case, what's the problem then? Let the discussion go where ever it will.

[Grizzly]

To further add to Karajorma: An important distinction is that when people protesting Israel's actions get shot (something for which Israel does get condemnations) or when civilians die at the hand of Israel's police actions, these killings are done by people who work for the Israeli government. The palestenians can not be held accountable for the actions of terrorists and criminals, just as the israelian government can not be held accountable for it's own terrorists and criminals. But it can be held accountable for the actions of it's police forces and army, like happened last year (And last year the palestenian governments did get condemnations for the violence as well, esp. from the european and US corner).

[Bobboau]

"No one is condemning the Palestinians for being violent for the same reason no one blames the sea for being wet. That's just what it is and it's not going to change any time soon."

and I think that may be a major part of the reason nothing ever changes here.

[Grizzly]

But people are condeming the palestenians. Atleast they were in 2014.

[karajorma]

I was referring to the people on this thread rather than governments for the most part.

That said, I think most governments do fall into the trap of assuming condemning the Palestinian leadership is implicit in everything they say in the issue somewhat too.

[Sandwich]

Glad to hear it. Where are the international calls condemning the Palestinians for all these violent acts of murder and attempted murder?

Currently I haven't seen much. Have there been any international calls condemning the Israelians for the recent violent acts of murder and attempted murder?

Ok, for the record: An Israeli person, a Palestinian person. Israeli people, Palestinian people. I know it can be confusing.

As for your question, here's a condemnation from UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon:

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon on Tuesday expressed his concern over the recent surge in tensions between Israelis and Palestinians, condemning the killings of Palestinians without mention of Israeli terror victims.

The UN chief said he is "profoundly alarmed by the growing number of deadly incidents in the West Bank, including east Jerusalem."

"The Secretary-General welcomes the commitment by Palestinian and Israeli officials to work together to curb the violence, including through continued security cooperation," he added.

Ban said he did not believe that the demolition of homes belonging to Palestinian terrorists or the construction of new Israeli settlements "will do anything other than inflame tensions still further."

Ban acknowledged the death of four Palestinians, referring to a 13-year-old boy whom the IDF said was accidentally killed by misfire and three terrorists who were killed by security forces following attacks that killed four Israelis. 

While he said the "escalation of violent incidents underscores the need for urgent action by both sides," Ban placed responsibility on Israel to investigate incidents of violence.

"The Secretary-General condemns the killings and looks to the Government of Israel to conduct a prompt and transparent investigation into the incidents, including whether the use of force was proportional," the UN statement said.

However, Ban's statement made no specific mention of the four Israeli causalities in terrorist shootings and stabbing over the past week, nor did he mention steps the Palestinian Authority government should take.

He also pointed toward the reported hundreds of Palestinians injured in clashes with Israeli security forces, and called these events "yet another worrisome sign of violence potentially spiraling out of control."

Is the head of the UN sufficient, or should I look for more instances?

No one is condemning the Palestinians for being violent for the same reason no one blames the sea for being wet. That's just what it is and it's not going to change any time soon.

It's a huge mistake to assume the fact that people don't waste their breath condemning criminals and terrorists for committing crimes and terrorism as being in any way support of their actions.

I was referring to the people on this thread rather than governments.

Ahh, thanks for the clarification. Would it then be right to say that you view the situation here kinda like coaching your kid how to deal with bullies at school? "The bullies can't help acting like idiots, it's the way they are, ignore them, be better than them?"

If so, how would your coaching change after a few years of your kid getting bloody noses and cracked ribs from those bullies?

[Bobboau]

@kara: and here I thought you were referring to people in general, this thread seems like a fairly representative sample aside from having several actual Israelis in it.
(thread is moving just a little bit too fast)

[Grizzly]

It's sufficient.
He also condemned palestenians for their attacks on Israelis two days earlier.

[karajorma]

@kara: and here I thought you were referring to people in general, this thread seems like a fairly representative sample aside from having several actual Israelis in it.
(thread is moving just a little bit too fast)

I don't see any Palestinians though. And that's also kinda the problem. We never see any Palestinians.

Ahh, thanks for the clarification. Would it then be right to say that you view the situation here kinda like coaching your kid how to deal with bullies at school? "The bullies can't help acting like idiots, it's the way they are, ignore them, be better than them?"

If so, how would your coaching change after a few years of your kid getting bloody noses and cracked ribs from those bullies?

It's not even slightly close to the situation really. A more apt metaphor might be if you were the principle of the school and had bullied their parents in the past and your kid had a big mouth but even then it is still a really, really, ****ty metaphor.


No one here is going to claim that Palestinian terrorism is justified. But Israel really needs to stop acting like it's the innocent victim here. This is a case of two groups of people constantly starting fights with each other over stupid ****. The reason why the claims about prayer in a Muslim sacred space are so easily believed is because Israel has got a history of carrying out provocative actions (like settling in Gaza and the West Bank) even when things are relatively calm.

[Turambar]

If so, how would your coaching change after a few years of your kid getting bloody noses and cracked ribs from those bullies?

I'd switch schools.

[Bobboau]

not everyone has the fortune to be able to move.

[SpardaSon21]

But why does that have to go trough palestenian territory, instead of sticking to the west of the 1967 lines? Why does it have to be built in such a way that it also protects the jewish settlers inside palestenian territory whose presence is in violation of the geneva conventions, which Israel signed? Why does it have to be built in a way that it seperates 240,000 palestenians from their relatives east of the wall?

Okay, I know I should have replied to this much, much sooner, but have you bothered to read up on the Geneva Conventions at all?  The Wikipedia entries on them are rather wordy and big on lawyer-speak, but you should give them a nice hard look if you think Israel is the only violator of them, or hell, even the worst violator of them in this conflict.

[Bobboau]

I believe, though please correct me if I am misrepresenting, that Josh is of the opinion that it does not matter what the other side is doing, that Israel signed them and they are beholden to them and they make no exception for if you are fighting someone who is not following them.

[karajorma]

Exactly. No one brings up the Geneva Conventions for the Palestinian side for the reason I mentioned above. We all know they are breaking them. That doesn't mean Israel also has the right to break them. It makes the entire Convention worthless if you can decide to break them simply because the other side is.

[NGTM-1R]

Exactly. No one brings up the Geneva Conventions for the Palestinian side for the reason I mentioned above. We all know they are breaking them. That doesn't mean Israel also has the right to break them. It makes the entire Convention worthless if you can decide to break them simply because the other side is.

It's also the only meaningful enforcement of them. The primary brake on violating the rules of war is and always has been that the enemy will retaliate in kind. Nobody is going to prosecute these people on either side, and they know it. The only thing to hold them back is the possibility that whatever they do will be returned tenfold.

And this has actually worked, though admittedly between actual nation-states. It's arguably working here, at least on some more extreme actions. Everyone knows if the Dome of the Rock or the Wailing Wall is directly attacked then the results will be catastrophic for whoever did so; they are never threatened directly for a reason.

[karajorma]

Well yeah, on a mutually assured destruction level, yeah they work. But that doesn't mean that either side get to claim to be the good guys cause they didn't go all the way crazy.