[X3N0-Life-Form]

I believe, though please correct me if I am misrepresenting, that Josh is of the opinion that it does not matter what the other side is doing, that Israel signed them and they are beholden to them and they make no exception for if you are fighting someone who is not following them.

"I thought rebels didn't recognize BETAC."
"No, but we do."

[GhylTarvoke]

"I thought rebels didn't recognize BETAC."
"No, but we do."

 

[NGTM-1R]

Well yeah, on a mutually assured destruction level, yeah they work. But that doesn't mean that either side get to claim to be the good guys cause they didn't go all the way crazy.

No, even beyond that. The Uboatwaffe refused orders to sink Allied lifeboats during WW2 because Donitz was convinced if his men offered no mercy, they would be granted none; thousands of German submariners survived because of that choice. The RAF threatened to courtmartial several Czech pilots during the Battle of Britain to get them to stop attacking Germans parachuting to the ground, fearing that the Luftwaffe would retaliate if it continued. WW2 did not go chemical because though the Germans were the only people in the world with nerve gas, whatever combat advantages they might have gained from deploying Tabun or Sarin would have been nullified by 8th Air Force and Bomber Command raiding German cities with mustard gas.

Conversely, at Bismarck Sea the Japanese machinegunned several bomber crew hanging from their parachutes, killing seven; several US fighters that tried to defend the men were also shot down. In response, US and Australian aircraft did not content themselves with sinking the convoy; they also sank the convoy's lifeboats, killing thousands of Japanese soldiers. There was never another documented, coordinated instance of Japanese fighters attacking Allied aircrew who'd bailed out until the B-29 raids on the Home Islands.

It's an ugly thing, but retaliation is really the only punishment available unless one side or the other wins so decisively as to effectively destroy their opponents. And it can work.

[karajorma]

WW2 did not go chemical because though the Germans were the only people in the world with nerve gas, whatever combat advantages they might have gained from deploying Tabun or Sarin would have been nullified by 8th Air Force and Bomber Command raiding German cities with mustard gas.

Actually, that one is also the other way round. Churchill wanted to use mustard gas but the armed forces feared reprisals and talked him out of it.

But here's the thing. Are Israel's infractions stated as being in retaliation for similar ones from the Palestinians? Hell, are the Palestinians combatants even covered by the Geneva Conventions for the most part? Terrorists certainly aren't.

[Dragon]

It just hit me - how united are the Palestinians anyway? So far, I didn't see anything organized taking place, just a lot of people killing each other in the streets more or less randomly. It certainly doesn't look like Hamas action, or even anything remotely organized.

Now, most partisan forces (such as Polish or Irish ones) that actually managed to achieve anything were united under something more concrete than a simple declaration of religion and ethnicity. So far, it looks like every Palestinian has his/her own agenda and reason for doing what they do. Some might very well be fighting for the right to vote on the Knesset (note, women in Britain also went quite far for their right to vote), while others may be killing people just for the heck of it (as it's one of the few places where a psychotic killer can find acceptance as long as he discriminates between targets). I've seen many second-hand reports, articles and analyses, but is there any definitive statement from anyone directly involved available?

Israel (as a state, not individual people) seems, so far, to be punishing an entire ethnicity for the actions of the attackers. This isn't going to do any good for anyone, except maybe Israel's enemies. If they really aren't organized (which would imply those are common people taking up arms in desperation), then Israeli government needs to rethink its strategy, to say the least.

[Turambar]

It just hit me - how united are the Palestinians anyway? So far, I didn't see anything organized taking place, just a lot of people killing each other in the streets more or less randomly. It certainly doesn't look like Hamas action, or even anything remotely organized.

Now, most partisan forces (such as Polish or Irish ones) that actually managed to achieve anything were united under something more concrete than a simple declaration of religion and ethnicity. So far, it looks like every Palestinian has his/her own agenda and reason for doing what they do.

Their governments haven't been the best, i can understand why they wouldn't be loyal.  I mean, Israel's still parked on their home and the governments are either taking money from the corrupt west, or are branded terrorist organizations.

[Dragon]

It's not a matter of government, it's a matter of leadership in general. Even rebels have leaders, going out and killing someone is a pretty though decision for your average guy on the street, even in a place like this. Palestinian's choice with regards to established "governments" is between thieves (Fatah), tyrants (Hamas) and occupants (Israel), but I'd expect some sort of new leadership, even a weak one, to arise.

That is, of course, assuming that the discrimination hasn't gotten so bad that those people really have nothing left but to go out and kill, on their own. It'd have to be really egregious for that to happen, though (even for all my criticism towards Israel, I'd be very surprised if that was the case).

[Sandwich]

It just hit me - how united are the Palestinians anyway? So far, I didn't see anything organized taking place, just a lot of people killing each other in the streets more or less randomly. It certainly doesn't look like Hamas action, or even anything remotely organized.

Not very united - there's at least 4 different factions I can think of off the top of my head: Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, and the most recent, IS. That's of course not counting the regular Palestinians not particularly aligned with any one faction, nor the Israeli Arabs.

However, all the factions are virulently anti-Israel, and all have praised the "brave actions" yadda yadda, rejoicing over every drop of blood spilt. The radical leadership and incessant "Jews are evil monkeys and pigs" hate propaganda in their schools, mosques, and television programs has literally turned them into bloodthirsty savages. IMO it's the hate propaganda that needs to be stopped more than anything else.

Some might very well be fighting for the right to vote on the Knesset (note, women in Britain also went quite far for their right to vote), while others may be killing people just for the heck of it (as it's one of the few places where a psychotic killer can find acceptance as long as he discriminates between targets). I've seen many second-hand reports, articles and analyses, but is there any definitive statement from anyone directly involved available?

Yes (oh hey, look - I was prophetic! Everyone ignored the article like I said!):

Here's another article by a Palestinian scholar that everyone's going to completely ignore just because it's published by the Gatestone Institute and because it supports Israel - or rather, states the fugly truth about why the Palestinians are on a murdering spree:

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6669/palestinian-terrorists

• Palestinian terrorists are not driven by poverty and deprivation, as many have long argued. Instead, they are driven by hatred for Jews -- because of what their leaders, media and mosques are telling them.
• These young people took advantage of their status as permanent residents of Israel to set out and murder Jews. Their Israeli ID cards allow them to travel freely inside Israel. They were also entitled to the social welfare benefits and free healthcare granted to all Israeli citizens.
• Muhannad Halabi wanted to murder Jews because he had been brainwashed by our leaders and media, and was driven by hatred -- he was not living in misery and deprivation. The family's house in the village of Surda, on the outskirts of Ramallah, looks as if it came out of a movie filmed in San Diego.
• This conflict is not about Islamic holy sites or Jerusalem. Murdering a Jewish couple in front of their four children has nothing to do with the Aqsa Mosque or "occupation."
• For the terrorists, all Jews are "settlers" and Israel is one big settlement. This is not an intifada -- it is just another killing-spree aimed at terrorizing the Jews and forcing them out of this part of the world. It already succeeded in the rest of the Middle East and is now being done there to the Christians as well.
• The current wave of terrorism is just another phase in our dream to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. The terrorists and their supporters are not struggling against a checkpoint or a wall. They want to see Israel destroyed, Jews slaughtered, and the streets of Israel running with Jewish blood.

Stop trying to justify murder.

Or, if you prefer to look at what the terrorists are writing on their social media accounts before going out to murder Jews, watch this:

(note: from 15:50 to 22:25 is in Hebrew, but he repeats much of what he says afterwards in English)

Israel (as a state, not individual people) seems, so far, to be punishing an entire ethnicity for the actions of the attackers.

What have you read to give you that idea?

[karajorma]

Oh come on Sandwich, that idea has been explained so many times in so many threads on here that no one is going to buy your mock surprise.

[Dragon]

Yes (oh hey, look - I was prophetic! Everyone ignored the article like I said!):

No, I actually checked out the article and it didn't convince me. That institute is good at pointing out things that are true, but are only a part of a bigger story. In fact, it spurred my question about leadership, due to claims it made and the fact they're about a number of specific cases. Believe it or not, some of those people could be fighting for voting rights. That a few rich idiots decided to go on a killing spree doesn't mean that they're the majority. I'm not denying that there is a lot of terrorism based on pure hatred (of which those are good examples of), but the latest "uprising" seems to be bigger than that.

Not very united - there's at least 4 different factions I can think of off the top of my head: Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, and the most recent, IS. That's of course not counting the regular Palestinians not particularly aligned with any one faction, nor the Israeli Arabs.

However, all the factions are virulently anti-Israel, and all have praised the "brave actions" yadda yadda, rejoicing over every drop of blood spilt. The radical leadership and incessant "Jews are evil monkeys and pigs" hate propaganda in their schools, mosques, and television programs has literally turned them into bloodthirsty savages. IMO it's the hate propaganda that needs to be stopped more than anything else.

This sounds like a fine piece of Israeli hate propaganda. I really don't think there isn't a single Imam in Israel calling for peace, or that radicals hold an iron grip over the soul of everyone who is not a member of the "Jewish master race" (yes, this is the vibe I'm getting from Israel sometimes). That people are more primitive in their thinking and culture does not, in itself, make them monsters. Radicals can do that, but what we are seeing seem to imply that people not aligned with radical organizations are rising up as well. Hate propaganda from Islamists definitely needs to be stopped (I wouldn't be opposed to Israel jamming/firewalling the more notorious providers), but I don't think it'd solve the underlying problem.

What have you read to give you that idea?

Recent news. For example about destroying houses, police repressions and all that. I didn't see a coordinated operation against radical elements in the society, that's for sure.

[NGTM-1R]

But here's the thing. Are Israel's infractions stated as being in retaliation for similar ones from the Palestinians? Hell, are the Palestinians combatants even covered by the Geneva Conventions for the most part? Terrorists certainly aren't.

Certainly. When there was a bounty of $10K for a successful suicide bombing, Israel took to bulldozing the houses of the immediate family of suicide bombers in retaliation, making the $10K bounty moot. Air strikes in response to rocket launches. Major ground engagements in response to repeated provocations.

He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send a dozen of his to the morgue. Is it legal or moral? Not particularly. But as long as you can ultimately escalate further than the other guy, he has nothing to gain by following the cycle to its end. Israel has always been able to escalate further, and has played this game for most of its existence.

Given the inability of either of the groups who claim to speak for the Palestinians to meet the minimum definition of a state as the entity with a monopoly on the use of lethal force, we could go on like this forever due to a lack of better options.

[karajorma]

And settling in the West Bank? The issue that brought up the whole issue of the Geneva Convention? What is that in response to?

[est1895]

Has anyone seen this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJyuTQ9kNCY

[Grizzly]

And now, history!

[NGTM-1R]

And settling in the West Bank? The issue that brought up the whole issue of the Geneva Convention? What is that in response to?

He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send a dozen of his to the morgue. Is it legal or moral? Not particularly. But as long as you can ultimately escalate further than the other guy, he has nothing to gain by following the cycle to its end. Israel has always been able to escalate further, and has played this game for most of its existence.

The point, it went over your head. Geneva has no bearing on the reality of the situation and probably never will. (Indeed, it probably doesn't have bearing on the settlement issue at all; I await a direct citation to prove otherwise.)

Who initiates the use-of-force cycle is irrelevant. Only Israel wins when it happens.

[karajorma]

The only reason that they were brought up is because Joshua asked why the hell Israel has to build settlements in violation of the Geneva convention in the first place. You've tried to make the claim that they are in direct retaliation for something but can't actually claim what that it. If you want to argue that Israel are ignoring the Geneva convention on this subject entirely because they have the power to do so, no one is going to argue with you. That's exactly what Joshua was on about in the first place. Why the hell are they acting like "Might makes right"?

Indeed, it probably doesn't have bearing on the settlement issue at all; I await a direct citation to prove otherwise.

You're not aware of the sheer number of UN resolutions that specifically cite that particular violation of the convention? Here.