[The E]

Except that so far, the terrorists and extremists protesting against taking in refugees have been much more of a danger to society than the refugees themselves, at least in Germany.

[Aesaar]

Considering the non-IS rebels include the al-Nusra Front, which is an al-Qaeda affiliate, I don't really see a problem with that.

I never made a claim of good guys and bad guys. Indeed, you seemed to be objecting to a point you have now conceded, that Dragon's characterization was wrong.

Uh, no, they are fighting IS.  They're just not uniquely fighting IS, and aren't focusing on IS much as they're focusing on other rebels.  That does not mean that they aren't fighting IS.  If they weren't fighting IS, they wouldn't be dropping bombs in Al-Raqqah or anywhere else in eastern Syria.

[Mikes]

Deporting millions who dont want to leave is certainly possible. Do not try to tell me that a modern developed nation is incapable of enforcing its immigration policy as it sees fit. The only thing lacking is political will to do so (for better or worse, this is quite a radical solution after all). We are not talking about gassing those people, only deporting them, so you do not need to be like Hitler to achieve it, either, This kind of defeatism is just wrong. Also, US immigration policy is a huge joke, the fact that US fails to deport those millions of illegals is thus not indicative of whether it can be done or not at all. If Trump had sufficient political support behind him, he could surely do it.

Children of Men suddenly became a such more relevant movie.

[Phantom Hoover]

I've seen no reason to believe that this attack was perpetrated by illegal immigrants rather than French citizens.

[General Battuta]

The goal of ISIS is to drive a wedge between Muslims and the Western world. This isn't an inference, it's straight-up what they say.

Deporting immigrants plays right into their hands. Where do you think these people go?

[Col.Hornet]

Mass deportations are not an option. That would ignite chaos on a huge scale. What we must do IMO is to regain control of EU's southern borders. We cannot let just everybody in. That's madness.

I've just talked with my friend and we concluded something. Terrorists performing crimes are very young people. And somebody shaped these people into monsters. We must ask the question who did this and how we can stop them?

Why can't we just infiltrate the mosques and make a list of imams and clerics who are preaching hatred and pouring sh** into people's heads that threat the others? then severely punish them? How is that possible that people like for example Anjem Choudary are not rotting in prison or else and keep preaching their bull****?

[The E]

We CAN let everybody in. On balance, we will gain more good citizens than we will terrorists.

[zookeeper]

We CAN let everybody in. On balance, we will gain more good citizens than we will terrorists.

I'm pretty sure you should clarify that to take into account the most obvious counterargument.

[Col.Hornet]

We CAN let everybody in. On balance, we will gain more good citizens than we will terrorists.

OK, if you/ your country/ whoever want to do that. Fine. With all the consequences. But never, ever try to force it on others like the EU officials are trying to force my country and other V4 lands to take responsibility for West Europe's mistakes.

[The E]

All these people want is to encourage people to be islamophobic, to shutter their borders and increase the security theater. Why the **** should we give in to them? Why should we give them ammunition for their propaganda war? Why should we follow the idiots and bigots who keep calling integration futile, or even failed? Why should we turn away people who, given a chance to make their own way in our countries, will ultimately be an economic boon?

[Phantom Hoover]

Why should we follow the idiots and bigots who keep calling integration futile, or even failed?

I don't think you can call people bigoted idiots for questioning the success of integration when significant numbers of European Muslims have joined ISIS and perpetrated terrorist attacks in Europe.

[Col.Hornet]

Why? Because we are independent, sovereign nations. If Germany, UK or any other country has an interest or wants to bring more people in, go ahead. But we do not. We're not islamophobic, racists or whatever. If Muslims want to live their way, I'm fine with that. As long as it will not affect me or the rest of society. But I will not tolerate preaching of hatred towards my culture, traditions and our way of living. Taking the migrants/refugees WILL create a ground of possibility for such acts. Even if 99.99% of them will be good people. One drop of tar will destroy the taste of entire honey jar, as my people say. We simply do not want to take risks that you take.

Just heard that our fresh nominated Minster of foreign issues made a statement that recent events made the acceptance of taking the migrants dangerous due to the risk of terrorist infiltration. Final decision shall be taken soon and it looks like we will not accept the EU's demands.

[Bobboau]

I just want to clarify, as I get it might have not been obvious, I was not making a sudgestion for a good or practical solution, I was pointing out that if **** gets bad and people get afraid on a large enough scale nasty **** can still happen. It's been a while since the extreme far right had any power in europe, it's nearly out of living memory, and the stage might be in the early days of getting set for a return. I also think authoritarian tactics to try an squash it will backfire spectacularly, and that's the only option people seem to think exsist any more.

[headdie]

Several arrested in Brussels in connection with the Paris terror attacks

Belgian police say they have arrested several in Brussels, in the Molenbeek neighbourhood, during a series of raids.
They said the raids were carried out in connection with the Paris terror attacks.
Belgian justice minister Koen Geenstold told the VRT network that a car with Belgian licence plates was seen close to the Bataclan concert hall last night.
Armed terrorists stormed the concert hall in central Paris last night and killed at least 80 people following a hostage situation.

[The E]

I don't think you can call people bigoted idiots for questioning the success of integration when significant numbers of European Muslims have joined ISIS and perpetrated terrorist attacks in Europe.

How many? Out of the millions of muslims living in the western EU, how many have joined ISIS?

I am very definitely questioning the "significant" modifier here.

[headdie]

Guys lets not get heated about this, it's not even 24h since the attacks happened.  While it is as always a complex issue on how to prevent stuff like this in the future, anger on the HLP boards certainly wont fix anything.

[Dragon]

All these people want is to encourage people to be islamophobic, to shutter their borders and increase the security theater.

Actually, closing borders and Europeans in ISIS are two separate issues. Increased security on the borders is to prevent Arab terrorists from getting in (a refugee passport was found on at least one of the attackers: http://metro.co.uk/2015/11/14/greek-minister-claims-paris-attacker-entered-europe-as-refugee-in-october-5502185/ ), unless we also made it difficult to get out.

It's not about islamophobia. It's about government protecting its own people, which is why it exists in first place. I haven't heard about Tatars, for example, being a significant contributors to ISIS, despite them being Sunni Muslims as well. What we have now is an influx of foreigners, mostly Arabs, who also happen to be Muslims. This is what I am against.

Also, are those refugees really contributing to the economy? From what I've heard, they're good at taking advantages of benefit systems in the western countries, which have recently been downright socialist (that's why they don't care much about Poland, we got rid of our socialist regime in 1989 ).

[Phantom Hoover]

I don't think you can call people bigoted idiots for questioning the success of integration when significant numbers of European Muslims have joined ISIS and perpetrated terrorist attacks in Europe.

How many? Out of the millions of muslims living in the western EU, how many have joined ISIS?

I am very definitely questioning the "significant" modifier here.

I mean I know it's a tiny tiny fraction (the first few numbers I've googled suggest a couple thousand across Western Europe) but how can you pretend it's not significant? Those people don't exist in a vacuum; they're a symptom of some larger problem, and whatever lead to them being so estranged from their home country is a big component of that problem. You can't credibly say that there's no problem in the relationship between Europe and a segment of its immigrant population and then use that as leverage to call people delusional bigots.

[The E]

Also, are those refugees really contributing to the economy? From what I've heard, they're good at taking advantages of benefit systems in the western countries, which have recently been downright socialist (that's why they don't care much about Poland, we got rid of our socialist regime in 1989 ).

It's not about what they're doing now, it's what they or their children are going to do in ten years. For one, our populations are shrinking, which means we need more people to run our economy. Second, Refugees are usually motivated enough to get started on a new life; if given the chance, they're more likely than not to be net contributors to the economy in the short or medium term.

I mean I know it's a tiny tiny fraction (the first few numbers I've googled suggest a couple thousand across Western Europe) but how can you pretend it's not significant? Those people don't exist in a vacuum; they're a symptom of some larger problem, and whatever lead to them being so estranged from their home country is a big component of that problem. You can't credibly say that there's no problem in the relationship between Europe and a segment of its immigrant population and then use that as leverage to call people delusional bigots.

It really isn't significant. Sure, it would be better if radicals couldn't recruit as easily as they can, sure, we could do a better job at making refugees welcome and give them ways and means to become citizens, but taking an attack like this one as a signal that we need to start turning away more people? That we need to be more vigilant, less trusting towards these people? No. That, for me, is a step too far. Radicals will always be able to recruit. Terrorists will always be able to inflict damage. As free and open societies, that's what we have to live with.

[Phantom Hoover]

I don't disagree with you that turning on the refugees is a ****ty response to this attack, but if your response to a hundred and fifty people being murdered in one night is 'welp, them's the breaks, no point trying to change anything' I start feeling very sympathetic to the other point of view.