[Bobboau]

How many? Out of the millions of muslims living in the western EU, how many have joined ISIS?

I am very definitely questioning the "significant" modifier here.

European Muslim population is about 60 million IIRC, (correct me if I'm wrong)
I think estimates are about 7000 ISIS fighters in Syria came from Europe. (again, correct me if I'm wrong)
So to do the math, approximately 1/1000 (former) European Muslims are now active, in Syria, buying Yazidis and sex slaves ISIS members.
I put that modifier in there to point out this is a very specific statistic measuring the absolute most extreme of fanatical.

To put that into perspective, the percentage of Germans (who had about the same population as Muslims in Europe do today ~60million) just prior to the Nazi takeover that were official Nazis was somewhere around 50 times that. So it's about an order of magnitude or two off from Nazi Germany, which I suppose is good, though personally I would be happier if it was three or four orders of magnitude.

[Grizzly]

So to do the math, approximately 1/1000 (former) European Muslims are now active, in Syria, buying Yazidis and sex slaves ISIS members.

Ahum.

[The E]

I'm not saying we can't change anything, or that these problems are unsolvable. All I wanted to express, and apologies if I failed at that, was that this isn't a security problem anymore. There's nothing to be gained by increasing security, or insisting on tighter border controls or what have you, the only way to address this is to get these people to a mindstate where hate as preached by ISIS or whatever can't take root.

But that's an unattainable goal. We can (and should) get to a point where radicals can only recruit a couple hundred people, but we're never going to get rid of them entirely. And as long as they exist, as long as they believe they can get by force what they can't get in civilized ways, there's going to be terrorism, and that's something we have to learn to live with without taking counsel of our fears and break our societies in an effort to save them.

[est1895]

So here is some news as to possibly why the attack happened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW7gqO5i--w

[headdie]

Interesting but given that it is from an Israeli source it is one which I will take it with a note of caution

edit

Stopped listening at the point where the channel starts using Paris to promote their own conspiracy theories
https://youtu.be/UW7gqO5i--w?t=3m24s

[Bobboau]

So to do the math, approximately 1/1000 (former) European Muslims are now active, in Syria, buying Yazidis and sex slaves ISIS members.

Ahum.

your right, I ****ing missed a zero there. so 1/10000, nazi germani was 500 times worse. leaving my original post as to not hide my failure.

[Bobboau]

So here is some news as to possibly why the attack happened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW7gqO5i--w

well... that is certainly.. an... interesting hypothesis

[Bobboau]

it is fun to imagine some times.

[Akalabeth Angel]

The reasoning behind the attacks is not that at all. The reasoning is most likely revenge on western attacks against ISIS and our interference in muslim lands. Basically, the terrorists want their dream of a caliphate to come true and are mad we stand in their way. It is not even an entirely unreasonable demand on their part, because sunni muslims with views similar to ISIS are often a majority in many parts of middle east. So by attacking ISIS we are attacking their right to self-determination. This is OK, because their self-determination goes against basic human rights and poses big a security risk for the region, thus they dont deserve it. But surely you can see how it could inflame "righteous anger" from their POV.

That's highly ironic reasoning given that muslims are interfering in other countries already. Specifically Syria and Yemen. Two countries where civil wars have resulted in Saudi Arabia and whomever getting involved.

Syria is no longer a war for self-determination, it's a muslim invasion of what was once a secular country.

Yemen was a civil uprising by a shia group (possibly iran-sponsored) which prompted UAE, US, Saudi Arabia to get involved to attack the rebels because they're not Sunni.

Self-determination my ass

[666maslo666]

The goal of ISIS is to drive a wedge between Muslims and the Western world. This isn't an inference, it's straight-up what they say.

Deporting immigrants plays right into their hands. Where do you think these people go?

Deporting immigrants should not drive a wedge between Muslim and Western world at all. It is a normal activity of every sovereign nation. If that alone is enough to drive a wedge between our worlds, then living in peace will be impossible.

[666maslo666]

We CAN let everybody in. On balance, we will gain more good citizens than we will terrorists.

Thats not enough at all. We must gain at least as much good citizens than there is good citizens already in our population. Otherwise you are making the country worse, by increasing the proportion of the bad.

[666maslo666]

...

[General Battuta]

We CAN let everybody in. On balance, we will gain more good citizens than we will terrorists.

Thats not enough at all. We must gain at least as much good citizens than there is good citizens already in our population. Otherwise you are making the country worse, increasing the proportion of the bad.

That's not how civilization works. People don't carry an intrinsic moral value. Their behavior is influenced by the environment.

The goal of ISIS is to drive a wedge between Muslims and the Western world. This isn't an inference, it's straight-up what they say.

Deporting immigrants plays right into their hands. Where do you think these people go?

Deporting immigrants should not drive a wedge between Muslim and Western world at all. It is a normal activity of every sovereign nation. If that alone is enough to drive a wedge between our worlds, then living in peace will be impossible.

Deporting immigrants will play directly into Daesh strategic goals. Whether or not you think it should is irrelevant.

[666maslo666]

Radicals will always be able to recruit. Terrorists will always be able to inflict damage.

Radicals would never be able to recruit if French proportion of muslims stayed at less than 1%. These attacks would not happen if not for mass immigration policies in France in recent decades. I mean, if you think that is a reasonable tradeoff, then so be it. But dont try to pretend that it is some kind of new normal that will always exist. It certainly is not. It is a choice of some countries to subject themselves to ethnic conflicts and terrorism in exchange for supposed benefits of multiculturalism and open borders (if there even are any, lol). It is also an entirely valid and understandable position to choose the opposite. Dont try to demonize it.

[666maslo666]

That's not how civilization works. People don't carry an intrinsic moral value. Their behavior is influenced by the environment.

Explain. Obviously muslims are not going to magically all adopt western values just because they happen to move into western countries. That is not how civilization works either. Import people from highly religious societes, and chances are you will also import religious extremism with them, along with religiously based conflicts with the majority. People do carry certain moral values with them.

[Akalabeth Angel]

It is a choice of some countries to subject themselves to ethnic conflicts and terrorism in exchange for supposed benefits of multiculturalism and open borders (if there even are any, lol).

Never eat sushi I take? Or chinese food, or British, or French or German food? No Greek food? Italian? Arabic? Persian? American? Ever eat McDonalds? Starbucks? KFC?

You laugh at the benefits of multiculturalism but your every day life is probably rife with the most basic examples of cultural-imports both from abroad and from immigrants to the country. Benefits which directly impact your standard of living on a day to day basis.

[666maslo666]

It is a choice of some countries to subject themselves to ethnic conflicts and terrorism in exchange for supposed benefits of multiculturalism and open borders (if there even are any, lol).

Never eat sushi I take? Or chinese food, or British, or French or German food? No Greek food? Italian? Arabic? Persian? American? Ever eat McDonalds? Starbucks? KFC?

You laugh at the benefits of multiculturalism but your every day life is probably rife with the most basic examples of cultural-imports both from abroad and from immigrants to the country. Benefits which directly impact your standard of living on a day to day basis.

In todays economically globalized world, I can enjoy diverse goods without importing lots of people along with it. And really, foreign food of all things is your argument? If I had to choose between a peaceful country with no religious extremism and terrorism, and diverse food, I choose the first option in a heartbeat. Kebabs are not really that important. But yes, I dont deny that there can be some benefits to multiculturalism, I just dont think they outweight the downsides. Not at all.

[General Battuta]

"I would like to comply with the enemy's stated goals, but I do not see the downside"

[General Battuta]

The very threats that Daesh sees itself as reacting to are those created by immigration - the West's enormous, all-encompassing soft power.

[The E]

Maslo, why are you so willing to give the terrorists what they want?