Author Topic: Planned Parenthood shooting  (Read 16347 times)

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Offline Goober5000

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Re: Planned Parenthood shooting
I'll bite, I can't see in the above links where it says "Christian". Only suspected motives, and the investigators
Quote
though NBC reported that sources said investigators still did not know for certain what motivated the gunman.

While I would probably agree that there could be a strong cause for religious motives against an abortion clinic, it doesn't appear confirmed in this case from what else I've seen.

There are reports that this guy wasn't targeting Planned Parenthood at all; rather that this was a botched bank robbery where the robber fled to Planned Parenthood because it happened to be nearby.  And I'd like to find out the source of the "no more baby parts" quote because it seems to have sprung out of whole cloth.

But I'll be interested to hear the official report when it comes out.


EDIT:

The thing that really gets me here is we seem to have found the one police department and the one SWAT unit in North America outside of maybe ESU or LAPD SWAT who take their job seriously, who are like "do it right or don't do it at all". None of this warrior cop assault resolution ****; if you have to shoot the suspect that is technically a failure. So they spend an hour talking him down, after he's shot five other cops and nobody would have batted an eyelash if they had opted for an assault resolution.

Colorado Springs PD SWAT: apparently the people who do not run around shooting the neighbor's dogs during drug raids and other stupid shenanigans.

This is an excellent point.  Quoting for truth.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 12:34:46 am by Goober5000 »

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Planned Parenthood shooting
Who says a bank robber can't be against abortion? He couldn't rob a bank and PP was nearby, so maybe he thought he'll at least take this opportunity to make an ideological statement. :)

 

Offline Sandwich

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Re: Planned Parenthood shooting
Talkin' theology you ain't qualified for, son. Even I know that. The old covenant was replaced.

No, the OT wasn't replaced by the NT. It was completed (as in fulfilled) by Jesus. That's for another thread though. :)
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Planned Parenthood shooting
Actually I think it's pretty relevant, one could make the argument that Jesus never commanded his followers to violence himself (telling them he'd do the head busting). The main counterargument to that is that Jesus is god and god previously had ordered quite a bit of violence so if the OT isn't replaced by the NT then all of the old commandments (killing homosexuals, killing witches, rapists buying their victims, etc) are still valid.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 10:36:57 am by Bobboau »
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Offline Sandwich

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Re: Planned Parenthood shooting
Ok, fine - I'll get into it.

The King James translation of the Bible sucks. It translates "Lo tirtzach" into "Thou shalt not kill." Lo = No/Don't/Thou shalt not. Tirtzach = Murder. Not "kill".

Now that's not to say that we should go around killing in a non-murderous way (not even sure what that would look like TBH). However, it does help explain why the Bible might appear to record God commanding "Don't do XYZ" and then leading His people on an "XYZ spree" a few books later.

Part B, God's all about holiness. Contrary to popular English usage of that term, it does not specifically mean "pure" or "without sin/badness/evil". The original Hebrew word is קדוש - Kadosh. The proper translation of this word is "dedicated", as in, "something dedicated (or put aside, devoted) for God's use". The term for the Temple in Hebrew is בית מקדש - Beit Mikdash - "House of Dedication". God called the Jewish people to be "holy", and went on to clarify what that meant many times throughout the Bible. It meant set apart, separated for a purpose. "In the world, but not of the world", "Do not do as the nations around you...", etc.

This state of holiness - being set apart and differentiated from all other nations - is one of God's concerns in the Bible. It guides the kashrut laws (kosher foods vs unkosher ones), the instructions against adopting the idol worship of the Israelite neighbors, etc. It guides the harshness of certain of the punishments to be meted out to violators of God's laws - as the paraphrased verse says, a little yeast causes the entire dough to rise. A little sin in the camp left unchecked can affect the entire nation.

So, when God led the Israelites out of Egypt and into the land of Canaan, He directed them to slaughter a number of the indigenous people there, both in the interest of maintaining that differentiation, that holiness, as well as it being a punishment on those people's great sins (see Molech - the parents burning their kids alive). God had a purpose with the Hebrew people, that of bringing forth His Son Jesus into the world and through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross for our sins, being able to tear down the veil of separation between a holy God and sinful man - our sins would no longer prevent us from fellowshipping with our Creator.



One more thing. I realize and recognize that the Bible was written thousands of years ago, and that there are no lack of passages that are relevant for the culture back then, and not so much for today. There's no hard-and-fast rule about what parts are and are not relevant, but just be aware that there is that to take into account. For example, any verses dealing with multiple wives, or the taking of slaves from conquered nations, etc. It's safe to say that most of us don't have multiple wives or slaves. :)
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Planned Parenthood shooting
No, the OT wasn't replaced by the NT. It was completed (as in fulfilled) by Jesus. That's for another thread though. :)

That is a point theologists of various religions and levels have spent the last two thousand years disagreeing upon. Assuming its validity for any one person's worldview is, frankly, a rookie mistake when it comes to theological discussion. Hence my comment to Bob.
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Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Planned Parenthood shooting
I'll bite, I can't see in the above links where it says "Christian". Only suspected motives, and the investigators
Quote
though NBC reported that sources said investigators still did not know for certain what motivated the gunman.

While I would probably agree that there could be a strong cause for religious motives against an abortion clinic, it doesn't appear confirmed in this case from what else I've seen.

There are reports that this guy wasn't targeting Planned Parenthood at all; rather that this was a botched bank robbery where the robber fled to Planned Parenthood because it happened to be nearby.  And I'd like to find out the source of the "no more baby parts" quote because it seems to have sprung out of whole cloth.
Speaking of "sprung out of whole cloth", there was no bank robbery. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Offline est1895

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Re: Planned Parenthood shooting
Ok, fine - I'll get into it.

The King James translation of the Bible sucks. It translates "Lo tirtzach" into "Thou shalt not kill." Lo = No/Don't/Thou shalt not. Tirtzach = Murder. Not "kill".

Now that's not to say that we should go around killing in a non-murderous way (not even sure what that would look like TBH). However, it does help explain why the Bible might appear to record God commanding "Don't do XYZ" and then leading His people on an "XYZ spree" a few books later.

Part B, God's all about holiness. Contrary to popular English usage of that term, it does not specifically mean "pure" or "without sin/badness/evil". The original Hebrew word is קדוש - Kadosh. The proper translation of this word is "dedicated", as in, "something dedicated (or put aside, devoted) for God's use". The term for the Temple in Hebrew is בית מקדש - Beit Mikdash - "House of Dedication". God called the Jewish people to be "holy", and went on to clarify what that meant many times throughout the Bible. It meant set apart, separated for a purpose. "In the world, but not of the world", "Do not do as the nations around you...", etc.

This state of holiness - being set apart and differentiated from all other nations - is one of God's concerns in the Bible. It guides the kashrut laws (kosher foods vs unkosher ones), the instructions against adopting the idol worship of the Israelite neighbors, etc. It guides the harshness of certain of the punishments to be meted out to violators of God's laws - as the paraphrased verse says, a little yeast causes the entire dough to rise. A little sin in the camp left unchecked can affect the entire nation.

So, when God led the Israelites out of Egypt and into the land of Canaan, He directed them to slaughter a number of the indigenous people there, both in the interest of maintaining that differentiation, that holiness, as well as it being a punishment on those people's great sins (see Molech - the parents burning their kids alive). God had a purpose with the Hebrew people, that of bringing forth His Son Jesus into the world and through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross for our sins, being able to tear down the veil of separation between a holy God and sinful man - our sins would no longer prevent us from fellowshipping with our Creator.



One more thing. I realize and recognize that the Bible was written thousands of years ago, and that there are no lack of passages that are relevant for the culture back then, and not so much for today. There's no hard-and-fast rule about what parts are and are not relevant, but just be aware that there is that to take into account. For example, any verses dealing with multiple wives, or the taking of slaves from conquered nations, etc. It's safe to say that most of us don't have multiple wives or slaves. :)

Sandwich is absolutely right.  When you look at the original text written either in Greek or Hebrew, "Thou Shall Not Kill" was translated wrong.  There is a translation that I think is more accurate.  Its called Young's Translation.  Please check it out Sandwich.

 

Offline Turambar

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Re: Planned Parenthood shooting
I think he's basically saying that you're being a dick again. Nowhere in your original article did it talk about faith or christianity as motivation... just anti-abortion.

But your sentence in your OP with the article link was exactly what you wanted to say. You knew exactly what topic you were starting... just so you can do what you just did. Be a dick.

There aren't any worthwhile non-religious arguments against abortion.  Being against abortion is because you believe in original sin and you are sending those newly-formed souls directly to hell.  Rational, informed people understand that it's far worse to bring an unwanted life into the world than it is to end a life before it truly begins.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Planned Parenthood shooting
When you look at the original text written either in Greek or Hebrew, "Thou Shall Not Kill" was translated wrong.  There is a translation that I think is more accurate.  Its called Young's Translation.  Please check it out Sandwich.
oh, so there are forms of killing sanctioned by Jesus? do please elaborate. (also directed at Sandwitch)
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Planned Parenthood shooting
Funnily enough, even the religious arguments are shaky. I recall there being a medieval saint and scholar (forgot his name soon after and could never recall it since, maybe one of you will know?) who researched souls and had stated in one of his writings when the soul enters the body during pregnancy. It was, IIRC, 4th month for boys and 5th for girls (again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I do know if was fairly late and earlier for boys). Now, you don't have to agree with that, especially if you're not Catholic, but this would make a darn good religious argument for early-stage abortion.

Regarding the Bible, yes, King James' translation (and many others) sucks, especially now because of all the language drift. "Thou Shall Not Kill" was actually accurate at the time the translation was made, since "kill" at the time meant what we would now translate as "murder" (the contemporary equivalent of modern "kill" was "slay"). I myself have a copy (of the original edition, not less :) ) of the "Millennium Bible" (called such because it was first released in 1966, to commemorate 1000th anniversary of Mieszko I's baptism, which officially made Poland a Christian state), translated into Polish directly from the original. As far as I figured out, it's pretty good.
oh, so there are forms of killing sanctioned by Jesus? do please elaborate. (also directed at Sandwitch)
By God, actually (yes, I know they are one being according to Christians, but let's keep them separate). This is from The 10 Commandments. Executing criminals, war (exactly what Sandwich mentioned in this context) with infidels, self-defense (presumably, I don't know if that one is actually in The Bible), perhaps others I don't know about. It would be very unreasonable to forbid killing under any reason, especially in the ancient world, where this could quickly lead one's own death.

 

Offline WeatherOp

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Re: Planned Parenthood shooting
Ok, fine - I'll get into it.

The King James translation of the Bible sucks. It translates "Lo tirtzach" into "Thou shalt not kill." Lo = No/Don't/Thou shalt not. Tirtzach = Murder. Not "kill".

Now that's not to say that we should go around killing in a non-murderous way (not even sure what that would look like TBH). However, it does help explain why the Bible might appear to record God commanding "Don't do XYZ" and then leading His people on an "XYZ spree" a few books later.

Part B, God's all about holiness. Contrary to popular English usage of that term, it does not specifically mean "pure" or "without sin/badness/evil". The original Hebrew word is קדוש - Kadosh. The proper translation of this word is "dedicated", as in, "something dedicated (or put aside, devoted) for God's use". The term for the Temple in Hebrew is בית מקדש - Beit Mikdash - "House of Dedication". God called the Jewish people to be "holy", and went on to clarify what that meant many times throughout the Bible. It meant set apart, separated for a purpose. "In the world, but not of the world", "Do not do as the nations around you...", etc.

This state of holiness - being set apart and differentiated from all other nations - is one of God's concerns in the Bible. It guides the kashrut laws (kosher foods vs unkosher ones), the instructions against adopting the idol worship of the Israelite neighbors, etc. It guides the harshness of certain of the punishments to be meted out to violators of God's laws - as the paraphrased verse says, a little yeast causes the entire dough to rise. A little sin in the camp left unchecked can affect the entire nation.

So, when God led the Israelites out of Egypt and into the land of Canaan, He directed them to slaughter a number of the indigenous people there, both in the interest of maintaining that differentiation, that holiness, as well as it being a punishment on those people's great sins (see Molech - the parents burning their kids alive). God had a purpose with the Hebrew people, that of bringing forth His Son Jesus into the world and through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross for our sins, being able to tear down the veil of separation between a holy God and sinful man - our sins would no longer prevent us from fellowshipping with our Creator.



One more thing. I realize and recognize that the Bible was written thousands of years ago, and that there are no lack of passages that are relevant for the culture back then, and not so much for today. There's no hard-and-fast rule about what parts are and are not relevant, but just be aware that there is that to take into account. For example, any verses dealing with multiple wives, or the taking of slaves from conquered nations, etc. It's safe to say that most of us don't have multiple wives or slaves. :)

Don't forget too, God gave them forty years to repent before Israel entered.  We know that by how Rehab answered the spies.
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Re: Planned Parenthood shooting
There aren't any worthwhile non-religious arguments against abortion.  Being against abortion is because you believe in original sin and you are sending those newly-formed souls directly to hell.  Rational, informed people understand that it's far worse to bring an unwanted life into the world than it is to end a life before it truly begins.

There are plenty of worthwhile non-religious arguments against abortion.

It's perfectly possible to be rational, informed, and pro-life. It's also perfectly possible to be rational, informed, and pro-choice.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: Planned Parenthood shooting
The thing is, those are philosophical arguments. I looked through them, not a single one is grounded in any inarguable truth. They're in the same basket as religious arguments, only that they're not tied to a particular religion. Those are deonthological and based on a particular morality, making them no better than religious arguments, either. To make them work, have to impose a morality. Attempts to do so usually end up referencing religion, without it I find it hard to arrive at a conclusion much different than "The good of the species is the most important" or "My own good is the most important" (I find the latter most natural, as depressing as it might be...). Both happen not to provide arguments against abortion. In the former case, unwanted children don't do the species as a whole any good, straining resources and having a higher chance to grow up into a threat (due to, well, being unwanted) and they obviously do not benefit the mother, either.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Planned Parenthood shooting
There aren't any worthwhile non-religious arguments against abortion.  Being against abortion is because you believe in original sin and you are sending those newly-formed souls directly to hell.  Rational, informed people understand that it's far worse to bring an unwanted life into the world than it is to end a life before it truly begins.

There are plenty of worthwhile non-religious arguments against abortion.

It's perfectly possible to be rational, informed, and pro-life. It's also perfectly possible to be rational, informed, and pro-choice.
Not only that, but even most of the religious arguments against abortion have absolutely nothing to do with "sending babies to hell."  (Most major denominations I'm aware of would state that exactly the opposite happens.)  Dismissing one whole side of a contentious issue as radical whackjobs is a great indication that you're not willing to participate in honest debate, and I would strongly suggest that anyone who is not so willing should consider themselves free to exit, thread left.

 
Re: Planned Parenthood shooting
You have to start somewhere, or no argument is possible. "The good of the species is the most important" and "my own good is the most important" are reasonable starting points, but not the only starting points - and as you implied, the latter is troubling.

I generally dislike the mindset that "the other side" must be irrational. In some cases, that mindset is justifiable. This is not one of those cases.

@Mongoose:  :yes:

 

Offline InsaneBaron

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Re: Planned Parenthood shooting
As an active member of the pro-life movement, I find this disgusting. Whatever motivated this shooter, his actions are the opposite of everything we stand for.
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Offline Turambar

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Re: Planned Parenthood shooting
There aren't any worthwhile non-religious arguments against abortion.  Being against abortion is because you believe in original sin and you are sending those newly-formed souls directly to hell.  Rational, informed people understand that it's far worse to bring an unwanted life into the world than it is to end a life before it truly begins.

There are plenty of worthwhile non-religious arguments against abortion.

It's perfectly possible to be rational, informed, and pro-life. It's also perfectly possible to be rational, informed, and pro-choice.
Not only that, but even most of the religious arguments against abortion have absolutely nothing to do with "sending babies to hell."  (Most major denominations I'm aware of would state that exactly the opposite happens.)  Dismissing one whole side of a contentious issue as radical whackjobs is a great indication that you're not willing to participate in honest debate, and I would strongly suggest that anyone who is not so willing should consider themselves free to exit, thread left.

It's worse.  I think it's a debate about something that's so glaringly obvious, we shouldnt even be debating about it.

These events happen because of politically motivated incitement.  These people wouldn't be all riled up and shooting people if they weren't listening to people who were egging on that response.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 07:10:15 pm by Turambar »
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Offline jr2

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Re: Planned Parenthood shooting
What evidence do we have that PP was his intended destination?  He started his spree in front of a Chase bank, IIRC?

 
Re: Planned Parenthood shooting
Been a while since we'd had some good'ole home grown Christian terrorism, was beginning to get bored with the Islamic variety.

Bored by people getting murdered? America's Us vs Them culture manifests itself in another nonsympathetic twat on the internet.