[NGTM-1R]

Word that better or I'm going to have to use this to discount everything you say from this point on for every subject.

If you approach every argument this simplistically, you're worth no one's time anyways, so this is acceptable.

There is a time and a place for every tool, a right and a wrong use. I said as much explicitly. If you can't grasp that, the fault is upon you.

[666maslo666]

Define a large number?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35261359

This article states that of 31 suspects known, only four are Syrian.

One thing I forgot to mention, while 4 are Syrian, whopping 18 are asylum seekers. That is considerably larger overrepresentation than the already big one I mentioned before. And somehow I dont think that many of those "asylum seekers" that fail to get asylum will ever leave Germany, not unless you plan to forcibly deport more than half a million people, with German immigration policy being so soft as it is..

[The E]

If I apply your rule that the actions of a few people are representative for the attitudes of their entire culture, I am forced to conclude that everyone in your country is rather unpleasantly racist, maslo.

18 people. Out of around a million total. 0.000018%. That's far less than the normal number of criminals in the population....

Meanwhile, Pegida ("Patriotic Europeans Against The Islamization of the Occident"), who are very keen to tell everyone that they're not racists, just concerned citizens, just held a demonstration in Cologne.

Where they attacked Policemen and press representatives with fireworks and bottles, showed the Hitler salute, and used the motto "Pegida Protects!". 1700 people, around half of which could be considered to be ready to inflict violence.
After which police stopped the whole thing.

As much as there are legitimate fears being expressed here, I cannot trust these people to do a good job expressing them.

[Luis Dias]

I'm also rather unimpressed by the statistics of violence. The suppression of the news backfired, if anything, and the reaction made things worse than the actual thing in itself (which is a very common thread on either true problems or false ones...).

Matters little. We are riding an irrational train of infotainment plus reality tv, something that is rather scary in itself. Donald Trump is a purebred product of those two things and, like Mussolini was the product of newborn radio, so are all these polarized shenanigans and populists a product of the new social medias and general hatred towards the liberal political elite that "brought us here".

If we can survive these new surges and waves of manias and mob mentalities during the next decade I'll make a huge sigh of relief.

[Col.Hornet]

...
Meanwhile, Pegida ("Patriotic Europeans Against The Islamization of the Occident"), who are very keen to tell everyone that they're not racists, just concerned citizens, just held a demonstration in Cologne.

Where they attacked Policemen and press representatives with fireworks and bottles, showed the Hitler salute, and used the motto "Pegida Protects!". 1700 people, around half of which could be considered to be ready to inflict violence.
After which police stopped the whole thing.

As much as there are legitimate fears being expressed here, I cannot trust these people to do a good job expressing them.

If that's true then police did the good job. But that was only a matter of time once immigants attacked women. Action=reaction.

Which is not surprising to me. As I noiced any organization that has an "anti" part in it's name usually drags dumb, agressive element which only looks for an occasion and excuse to demolish something or beat someone. It applies everywhere, no matter the side/ beliefs. Example from my own neighbourhood. Some idiots wanted to "fight islamization", so they demolished a kebab restaurant (which ironically turned out to be runned by Lebaneese christian xD). Some jerks from antifa wanted to "fight the nazis", so they attacked few flag-wielding patriots during the independence day celebration. Even if there are no real "enemies" to fight, they will create such. Because they can't exist without them.

 So if that million newcomers will indeed integrate (sooner or later) the pegida issue will solve itself. Of course the racist element will stay, but normal people won't feel any need to participate in that. But in my opinion this will not happen anytime soon and I predict that more and more incidents will take place.

And I'm really curious how will that shape the public opinion when it comes to elections in Germany. Time will tell.

[666maslo666]

If I apply your rule that the actions of a few people are representative for the attitudes of their entire culture, I am forced to conclude that everyone in your country is rather unpleasantly racist, maslo.

18 people. Out of around a million total. 0.000018%. That's far less than the normal number of criminals in the population....

It is not racism at all because I dont think those immigrants are genetically inferior. It is more like "culturalism" (their culture, or important parts of it, is inferior), coupled with a healthy aversion towards fundamentalist religion. That is an entirely legitimate opinion to have, IMHO. And yes, you can safely conclude that majority of people in my country have similar views on this, maybe 85% Id say.

As for PEGIDA, thats what happens when large part of population is intentionally ignored. You have to understand that those 1.1 million migrants that entered Germany this year were let inside by a right wing, conservative government. Which is quite astonishing. This is the part of political spectrum that under usual circumstances is supposed to be opposed to unregulated mass immigration. Germans who are against this therefore have no mainstream party to support, and turn towards more extreme parts of the spectrum. Cant say I blame them. As I said before, all things considered, the response of native Germans is abnormally peaceful and non-violent, IMHO, and especially when you account for their dominant share of population.

[Luis Dias]

I think Merkel saw this as an opportunity to show the world how Germany has trasncended its past inhuman ghosts.

And I'd say that apart from some extremist ghastly spectacles from brain wrecks, they have been doing pretty well. The final proof will only come in years, but given how the far right predicted astonishing nightmares would come with immigration, and then when a million of them arrived, all they can shriek about is 18 rape cases in the middle of a country wide drunk party, I mean, it's ****ing ridiculous.

[Mika]

I think Merkel saw this as an opportunity to show the world how Germany has trasncended its past inhuman ghosts.

Possibly. My own definition of Germany transcending is the point in time when the earlier mentioned laws (well not the law itself but how it is enforced) can be abolished. The current result of them limits German thinking and expression, which makes it different in my books.

However, today is probably not the day for that.

[Grizzly]

I do not wish to alarm anyone, but I found myself agreeing with Luis. Could the end times be near ?

[Bobboau]

Mika, Interesting you should word it like that as mein kampf just went on sale in Germany again for the first time since WW2 the other day.

[666maslo666]

The final proof will only come in years, but given how the far right predicted astonishing nightmares would come with immigration, and then when a million of them arrived, all they can shriek about is 18 rape cases in the middle of a country wide drunk party, I mean, it's ****ing ridiculous.

There are 379 cases of violence reported in Cologne alone, with people from North African countries overrepresented.

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/754237/cologne-violence-cases-up-to-379-most-suspects-migrants-police

This may the be considered no big deal, a new normal in Germany, but it is not normal at all in my book.

It is true that the final proof will only come in years (it took years to prove that past muslim immigrant waves are 2-3 times as criminal as Germans, too), but so far the predictions of the right seem to be more likely to come true than not. This wasnt an isolated incident, it is part of a pattern.

[Mikes]

Mika, Interesting you should word it like that as mein kampf just went on sale in Germany again for the first time since WW2 the other day.

Well ... maybe it would have been a good idea to add that this is a heavily commented version. I.e. a version that would hardly "please" rightwing elements symphathisizing with the original author - quite the contrary.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/25/mein-kampf-released-notes-hitler
(Notice the part where it says "re-released with notes countering Hitlers arguments? Guess you missed that huh? lol Guess you also missed the part where bringing out an annotated version is rather important before the copyright of the original expires and the unannotated original would become more readily available anyways lol.)

So maybe we could refrain from the "nazi knee jerk reactions" borne out of ignorance  that the title alone may entice, as they are completely off the mark when considering the heavily commented nature of the new release.
In any case, aside from complete ignorance of above facts, I don't see how you could construct any connection with current events out of this book release lol.

[Luis Dias]

I'd like to see statistics that matched low-income low-education germans to the refugees. I'm pretty sure that having rich germans, higher middle class within the "german averages" and so on will bias your conclusions against refugees that, by fiat, have nothing at all as a starting point. IOW, I'm still unimpressed by apples vs oranges comparisons.

And again, given the million plus people that crossed the border, all you have is crimes committed by <0.02%...

I mean, take Joshua's surprise at agreeing with me. But rather, I do think I am being consistent. It's a matter of proportion and taking miniscule percentages or risks completely off the rails and scopes. It rather seems to me that both the left and the right love to scare the **** out of the people with crazy number stories on how there's this huge monstruous trend or pandemic or danger coming your way. It's just that the stories change according to ideologies.

Rational, proportional, sensible analysis is just something humans are still unable to do.

[Mikes]

I'd like to see statistics that matched low-income low-education germans to the refugees. I'm pretty sure that having rich germans, higher middle class within the "german averages" and so on will bias your conclusions against refugees that, by fiat, have nothing at all as a starting point. IOW, I'm still unimpressed by apples vs oranges comparisons.

And again, given the million plus people that crossed the border, all you have is crimes committed by <0.02%...

I mean, take Joshua's surprise at agreeing with me. But rather, I do think I am being consistent. It's a matter of proportion and taking miniscule percentages or risks completely off the rails and scopes. It rather seems to me that both the left and the right love to scare the **** out of the people with crazy number stories on how there's this huge monstruous trend or pandemic or danger coming your way. It's just that the stories change according to ideologies.

Rational, proportional, sensible analysis is just something humans are still unable to do.

Well I would say it will take some time to get the whole picture, but also keep in mind that we now have reported sexual assaults from Hamburg, Stuttgart, Nuremburg, Augsburg, etc. with more coming in. So, just talking about Cologne, to get an accurate percentage you would have to compare incidents in Cologne to the population in Cologne, not to everyone in Germany.

[Luis Dias]

Of course you have sexual assault reports from all of those places. You always had and always will. The important questions are, are these statistics in different orders of magnitude from expected? If so, what kind of people did this, if so what is to do to solve those problems, etc.

Instead, we get PEGIDA screaming at the streets and vandalizing **** everywhere, showing how superior their genes are or something.

[Mikes]

Of course you have sexual assault reports from all of those places. You always had and always will. The important questions are, are these statistics in different orders of magnitude from expected? If so, what kind of people did this, if so what is to do to solve those problems, etc.

Instead, we get PEGIDA screaming at the streets and vandalizing **** everywhere, showing how superior their genes are or something.

Lol ... seriously... when you have groups of 15-20 people chasing women in multiple cities, something that simply has not happened in the entire history of the federal republic ... all you can say is "that s just like it always was"? Frankly... it's just beyond me of how anyone can deny that the entire nature of the crime is something that is completely new to Germany - but maybe that is because I am living over here /shrugs.

See ...  I understand where you coming from,  ... but as stated earlier ... I am just as sick and tired of right wing extremists and their sick views as I am sick and tired of ultraapologists that preach "everything is fine, there are no problems, also, no tanks in Bagdad, no sir!".


Furthermore, the latest news talks about strict orders of the police not to report crimes committed by refugees: http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/schweigekartell-bei-der-polizei-polizist-strikte-anweisung-ueber-vergehen-von-fluechtlingen-nicht-zu-berichten_id_5199256.html

That is what ultraapologetism ultimately leads to I guess ... just denying what isn't supposed to happen?
... and now guess who is profiting from it now that it came to light? Yeah exactly, right wing assclowns, Pegida, etc.

Also... kindly give a quite where people are screaming about their "superior genes" etc. that sounds just as exaggerated as "vandalising *** everywhere" (hardly lol) ... afaik, leaving ultra fringe opinions aside, the main controversy over here revolves around whether this has to do with differences in culture.
Furthermore ... there are several kinds of protests from normal people, women activists and even artists, with Pegida hardly leading anything in that regard.

[Deathsnake]

Yesterday a Demonstration of Pegida stopps because some fireworks fire at Police. But they came from Reporter! They are not neutral.

https://youtu.be/-hB5cJf9c2U

And here a Criminal Expert from Police was at a Interview and they sayd "if you talk about refugees the interview is over!"
https://youtu.be/SzsDzW1Js0Y
WTF!!?? Germany is soon finish if we stay this way!

[The E]

Ah yes. The usual Pegida "The press really has it out for us" song and dance. Every single time someone writes something about Pegida that shows them being something other than a front for neonazis, it's always the press lying about them. Never mind the Hitler salutes or the NPD people accumulating around them, it's definitely just the press spreading lies.

[Col.Hornet]

Looks like the topic is pretty hot.


Spotted this while watching the volleyball match transmission from Berlin yesterday.  .
And gosh, today's POL vs. GER was the most exciting one I've seen in a long time. Good fight

#Edit. It looks like the banner was made by football fans (Pogoń Szczecin <ger, Stettin>) from my hometown.

[Mikes]

In other news Milo Moire (swiss performer/artist) protested in the nude in front of the Cathedral of Cologne:

http://www.focus.de/panorama/videos/nach-skandalnacht-von-koeln-nackt-vor-dem-dom-so-demonstriert-eine-frau-gegen-die-uebergriffe-an-silvester_id_5198517.html


Also, the number of reported incidents in Cologne alone is at 516 now as mentioned here:
(And frankly ... if someone says still "business as usual" to that even after this number, I would have to wonder if they can really be that ignorant or want to be deliberately insulting to Germans in general.)

http://www.heute.de/de-maiziere-weist-vorwurf-der-vertuschung-in-zusammenhang-mit-fluechtlingen-zurueck-41756336.html