[Macielos]

And when you discuss this with Hungarians, it becomes clear that Orban was actually reacting to the situation and not being proactive, which is how it was reported in Finland. What happened in southern Hungary was threatening, and Orbans response was (based on the information that I have) very much justified and probably stopped a bigger uncontrolled response. Job well done, Orban!

I agree. It was reactive. But that was a natural reaction expected of him as per Schengen Treaty. Greece on the other hand let hundred thousands illegal immigrants further into Europe and there was no pressure on it to control their borders or no support to help them do so. Instead Germany and EU kept saying "Let them in, they need help, we'll accept all of them".

USA and EU didn't have a plan regarding Syria and I suppose several Whoopses have been heard around the Pentagon region.

USA's plan was to support Syrian opposition in order to overthrow pro-Russian Assad and replace him with pro-American leader. The problem is that Assad and his Russian supporters turned out to be stronger then anticipated and a little conflict like in Libya turned into a bloody civil war. What's more, Americans were interested mainly in fighting Assad, at the same time they withdrawn from Iraq and allowed (or perhaps even supported? Lots of scenarios are possible) Islamic State's growth. American bombardments of ISIS are ineffective and lots of its weaponry sent to pro-west Syrian rebels are taken over by ISIS. Turkey, a member state of NATO, is bombing Kurdish forces who are actively struggling to stop ISIS advance.

Russia is also not interested in completely defeating ISIS either as Middle-Eastern instability will in long term make oil prices go up, but Syrian war is a good chance not only to rescue Putin's pupped Assad, but also to turn world's attention from Ukraine war and uphold Putin's popularity inside Russia.

[Bobboau]

we really should threaten to kick turkey out of NATO if they don't stop bombing the Kurds.

...we can do that right?

[Akalabeth Angel]

This can't have anything to do with the treatment of women in Islam. No sir.

You know that Islam also prohibits alcohol?

[Mikes]

Getting back on track ... the mayor of Cologne majorly embarassed herself by recommending women in the future "keep one armslenght distance" to prevent such attacks ...

just wow.

The twitter hashtag #eineArmlänge is half outrage half ridicule as commented on here: http://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/deutschland/twitter-spott-fuer-koelner-ob-henriette-reker-einearmlaenge-gegen-sexuelle-uebergriffe/12795260.html

[Deathsnake]

We Need Obelix next time to deal with them Hit them hard!!!

[GhylTarvoke]

Honestly, I find political correctness every bit as irritating as xenophobia.

Frankly I find using a case like this to push a political agenda which is at best tangential to the case more disgusting than either.

I'd lump political correctness and xenophobia under "pushing an agenda".

This can't have anything to do with the treatment of women in Islam. No sir.

Yeah, when we had that incident in the early '90s in New York where during a Latin American pride event several dozen women were assaulted it was totally because the Puerto Ricans accused had no respect for women.

My sarcasm was aimed at political correctness, of which the laughable "keep one arm's length distance" remark and tardy/sparse media coverage are prime examples. There's a blatant refusal to touch even the possibility of cultural factors, which is suspicious in itself.

You know that Islam also prohibits alcohol?

Fair point, though it only rules out scenarios in which an offender was
a) drunk,
b) Muslim, and
c) devout (enough to abstain from alcohol completely).

[zookeeper]

Well of course it's a cultural issue. The problem is just that for some reason, you rarely have people able to talk about cultural issues in a sane manner. You got people who over-generalize and pin the problem culture on the larger culture they're a part of, and then you got people who don't want to blame any culture because they're afraid that that leads to or condones the aforementioned kinds of over-generalizations.

I see no reason why the stupid beliefs and customs which make these guys think that it was all jolly good fun and kinda ok shouldn't be called "culture". It's just much more specific than simply "islam" or "middle-eastern culture" or whatever else broad label like that, just like the beliefs and customs of a thousand anarchists throwing rocks is much more specific than "western culture".

So, what is the word to use for referring to the culture which these attackers most likely share? The kind where women are supposed to be subordinate to men, the racial/religious out-group is seen as inherently worth less and ultra-conservative attitudes regarding family and sexuality are mostly dictated by religious tradition, but which isn't limited to any given region or religion? Everyone has a clear picture in their minds of that, but I don't think we have a good word for it. Which I think is a problem because that is really the crux of the issue a lot of the time.

[est1895]

we really should threaten to kick turkey out of NATO if they don't stop bombing the Kurds.

...we can do that right?

Dear Bobboau,

About Turkey, President Erdogan has been declared the Caliph.  Although, Baghdadi is also a Caliph. Hmmmmm... I wonder who will prevail?

As for the Battle in Syria, here is a recent update video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NEhGaT1rOY

[Akalabeth Angel]

So, what is the word to use for referring to the culture which these attackers most likely share? The kind where women are supposed to be subordinate to men, the racial/religious out-group is seen as inherently worth less and ultra-conservative attitudes regarding family and sexuality are mostly dictated by religious tradition, but which isn't limited to any given region or religion? Everyone has a clear picture in their minds of that, but I don't think we have a good word for it. Which I think is a problem because that is really the crux of the issue a lot of the time.

Backwards

As in, counter-progressive, backward-thinking or educated people who hail from a social mindset which is not foreign to "western" civilization, but which has by and large been overcome or marginalized by social progress in western countries.

[karajorma]

Frankly I find using a case like this to push a political agenda which is at best tangential to the case more disgusting than either.

I'd lump political correctness and xenophobia under "pushing an agenda".

Sometimes, but in this case using the actions of people who have been in the country for a while to judge the actions of those who just arrived is a pretty disgraceful attempt to push an agenda nothing to do with what is actually going on. And to use sexual assault in this way is particularly disgusting.

My sarcasm was aimed at political correctness, of which the laughable "keep one arm's length distance" remark and tardy/sparse media coverage are prime examples. There's a blatant refusal to touch even the possibility of cultural factors, which is suspicious in itself.

If you think the one arm's length comment is political correctness, you have no idea what political correctness is. Victim blaming is the exact opposite of political correctness.

[est1895]

Please watch this History lesson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ilFbbk9jw4

And then his response to what happened in Cologne:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDxNg7rdT4U

[MP-Ryan]

1.  Speculation at this point, as many people have pointed out, is foolhardy.  Wait for the conclusion of the police investigation before leaping to conclusions.
2.  Notwithstanding the above, it is neither racist nor inappropriate to recognize that a large portion of men hailing directly from cultures in the Middle East and Africa in particular have very different cultural norms concerning what they believe they can do and have a right to do with women, without their consent.  But was that what caused this?  Refer back to (1.).

Conflicting cultural norms among immigrant cultures are not in-and-of-themselves reasons to halt immigration; they just require very specific policies to handle integration.  Europe as a whole has not historically nor currently been good at integrating immigrant cultures; the production of immigrant enclaves has been a direct contributing factor to radicalization of European-born members of particular minority groups - but that's not a condemnation of immigration, it's a condemnation of how many European countries aren't very good at supporting new immigrants.

[GhylTarvoke]

Sometimes, but in this case using the actions of people who have been in the country for a while to judge the actions of those who just arrived is a pretty disgraceful attempt to push an agenda nothing to do with what is actually going on. And to use sexual assault in this way is particularly disgusting.

That's the xenophobia I was talking about.

If you think the one arm's length comment is political correctness, you have no idea what political correctness is. Victim blaming is the exact opposite of political correctness.

I would usually agree. Unfortunately, from the PC perspective, tolerance of Middle Eastern culture is one of the few things that trumps women's rights.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Please watch this History lesson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ilFbbk9jw4

And then his response to what happened in Cologne:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDxNg7rdT4U

Half hour videos? Too long for a history "editorial".
Watch the tail end of both. His claim about no-go zones has been proven false. Sounds like another fear-monger quite frankly with a bit of anti-feminism to boot.

I would usually agree. Unfortunately, from the PC perspective, tolerance of Middle Eastern culture is one of the few things that trumps women's rights.

The middle east isn't a culture. It's a region.
Lumping a society like Syria in with a society like Saudi Arabia is completely bonkers.  And ironically Saudi Arabia, the worst country for women's rights in the world is the long-time bed buddy of the United States and the west. If anyone is asking "what the ****" with regards to middle-east relations in should be on that issue quite frankly.

My own country, Canada, under the last right-wing christian government helped ink a 14B dollar arms-deal to Saudi Arabia.  The man was condemning Islam while selling them armoured vehicles. 

It's all political ****.

[GhylTarvoke]

You're right; I wasn't precise. "Muslim culture" would be more appropriate, but it would ruffle more feathers.

[Akalabeth Angel]

You're right; I wasn't precise. "Muslim culture" would be more appropriate, but it would ruffle more feathers.

As with my edited message.
I think the problem isn't tolerance of islam trumps women's rights.

The problem is the western relationship with Saudi Arabia trumps morality on all fronts.

[Bobboau]

[karajorma]

You're right; I wasn't precise. "Muslim culture" would be more appropriate, but it would ruffle more feathers.

That's at least as stupid as saying Middle-Eastern culture if not more so. The Muslims of say, Morocco and Saudi Arabia have very different cultures let alone Muslims from any Western country. It  ruffles feathers because it's stupid and incredibly imprecise.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Depends upon what political climate/country you live in.

In the United States I don't think it's Politically incorrect to slander muslims or arabs. But you will noticed that the United States did not condemn the mass executions in Saudi Arabia.

In Germany or Canada, they condemned those executions and are generally more sympathetic to refugees/immigrants at least currently.

[CooperHawkes]

just told a friend, that this would be the time to leave this country, if i had the money.

i dont want to downplay what those women had to endure, but what happened and (even worse) IF it happened at all doesnt really matter now/anymore (no, i dont want to say "all lies! nothing happend!". as much as i dont want to say "cultural background has absolutely nothing to do with what happened!").

the damage has been done, wether it was 1 woman assaulted by 100 guys or 100 women assaulted by 1 guy or whatever numbers you wanna throw into the game... it made the news, everybody made up their opinion and (gotta be honest, its the way most people work:) those wont probably change, even if investigations result in "it was only 1 isolated incident".

nazis are already shouting "they are raping our women! we gotta protect them! also: WE TOLD YOU SO!" and all the stupid "worried citizens" that cant see nazi propaganda/indoctrination even if its poking them in the eye, got another reason to say "ive got no problem with immigrants, BUUUUUUT  ... the women!"

karneval will be a fun time, i guess. even if there will be no attacks against women, i bet there will be more than one incident where someone overreacts because one tanned guy says "hi" to a german girl. "its just some weeks till karneval, think about what will happen THEN!" the media says. yeah, great way to heat up the tension and paranoia way in advance.

the "stay one arm length away from any bad person"-statement is as laughable as it is stupid as it is an insult to those, who had to go through this and as much as everybody is laughing about it: it just adds more to the paranoia.

looks like this will be a big clash of cultures, religions, political systems, worldviews, customs...
germany seems to be the "idiots! gather here and start to fling the ****!"-hotspot of the world. as much as im happy to live in this country with all its benefits... right now i wanna get out before all that **** really starts to combust.

TheE, you are right, everybody SHOULD wait until investigations are done, but sadly thats not the way reality works...