Author Topic: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story  (Read 15412 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
I don't think anyone is complaining that Rey knows how to fly a ship (even fly a ship well). The problem is when you add it to all the other things she is inexplicably good at and which also have no exposition.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
I've spent the last three pages reminding people that she's not "inexplicably good" at more than half the things mentioned.

She's an excellent technician, which surprises no one at all.
She flies 'well enough' to evade the TIEs... while also crashing repeatedly into the ground and inconveniently placed buildings.
She misses more often with her blaster than literally any other main character.
She takes a level in Jedi and casts a first level spell (charm person) and a couple cantrips.  The subtitle for the movie is "The Force Awakens" and we're told repeatedly that she's strong in the Force.  How inexplicable can this possibly be when it's been explained several times?
She picks up a lightsaber and is in the process of being beaten by a guy who was shot and stabbed a few minutes ago and who is not actually trying to kill her, and then calls on the Force to beat the guy who was shot and stabbed and isn't actually trying to kill her.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
It's fascinating the different viewpoints that humans can reach by watching the exact same piece of material. The charm force attack was the one who threw me off the most. Why is she calmly telling the guard Kenobi-like chanting mantras? How the hell did she reach the conclusion that this was a good idea in the first place, why was this approach in her mind in the first place? There's never any setup for this scene. (It's akin for Son Goku learning the Kamehameha without any hint that it was possible in the first place - even that overpowered protag needs a mentor to show him how it's done before he does it himself)

It reeks of lazy writing. I could totally buy it if she saw Kylo Ren doing it beforehand to other people. And then you would see her use the exact same words, like a newbie trying to copy everything she saw that seemed to work. Or if it was previously established that she had something like this power back at her place (like for instance, establishing that she used charm to get the trader to accept her deal in the beggining of the movie).

But no, she just goes all Kenobi on the guards like she always knew how to use it. Wrong. Badly written. If they were going to do this this way, they should at least have given Rey the line being said in desperate frustration, in a rage, only to have the guard inexplicably follow suit. Then she realises something's happening, "what the hell...", and tries again more calmly. That I would have bought. I could find hundreds of ways that I could have bought it. But the movie is FAST PACED and so just accept **** and MOVE ALONG COME ON WE GOT A PLOT TO FOLLOW GET ON WITH IT.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
But no, she just goes all Kenobi on the guards like she always knew how to use it. Wrong. Badly written.

I might have agreed with you, if not for the scene five minutes earlier in which Rey gets a glimpse into Ren's mind while rebuffing the interrogation.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
Quote
I might have agreed with you, if not for the scene five minutes earlier in which Rey gets a glimpse into Ren's mind while rebuffing the interrogation.

I had no problem with that scene, although one could make the case she is overpowered. But it made a lot more sense. He was screening her and in the process she found out she could do the same. She saw what he did and copied it. That is how it's supposed to be written. Now, your idea that she knows every Jedi trick because she read his mind just doesn't cut it with me. That's never established, nor seen. It's merely an excuse.

That's probably my biggest gripe with JJ. He treats movies like magic tricks: if he does the **** sufficiently fast, he feels he can cheat all he wants, because you're on a rollacoaster and have no time to process what is happening, so it really doesn't matter if the plot isn't coherent or consistent or falls apart under scrutiny, because you have no time, we are already on another scene and now something different really fast is happening.

I loved how Spielberg was able to do those kinds of rollercoaster movies and still you never felt he cheated: you never felt he was speeding through the scenes deliberately to fool you into thinking that the movie makes more sense than it should. On the contrary, the more you see his movies, the more consistent and precise they appear to you. Which reeks of care. Of work. Of respect towards all aspects of the movie.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
I didn't say that she knows every Jedi trick, not even close.  She used one mind trick, used telekinesis once, and... that's all she did.  Luke could do telekinesis without training, and Rey had Ren's help in dislodging it from the snow and starting it on the trajectory to her hand.  We see her calling on the Force to beat Ren, but this is obviously meant to allude to Luke's drawing on the Force during the Death Star trench run, modified for their obviously different career paths.

I get the distinct feeling that people remember Rey doing a lot more than she did, a lot better than she did it.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 10:24:47 am by Scotty »

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
"that's all she did". Well I never said the movie was riddled with problems. I said that Rey had *some* problems. And I have explained where those problems were. "That's all she did".

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
But no, she just goes all Kenobi on the guards like she always knew how to use it. Wrong. Badly written.

I might have agreed with you, if not for the scene five minutes earlier in which Rey gets a glimpse into Ren's mind while rebuffing the interrogation.

Nevermind that it's a horrible scene in and of itself. Why didn't Vader use it on Leia at the beginning of the original trilogy?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 02:57:58 pm by Ghostavo »
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Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
Hate to derail the thread, but the Rogue One trailer: Is that guy with the voiceover a Mandalorian? Did I see Dark Troopers, or were just pilots? Think We'll get to see a Z95 on the big screen?

 
Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
Hate to derail the thread, but the Rogue One trailer: Is that guy with the voiceover a Mandalorian? Did I see Dark Troopers, or were just pilots? Think We'll get to see a Z95 on the big screen?

To the 1st question: Maybe. The 2nd: They were Death Troopers. The 3rd: Hopefully.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
Nevermind that it's a horrible scene in and of itself. Why didn't Vader use it on Leia at the beginning of the original trilogy?

We only saw Vader stop a blaster bolt with his bare hand, but that would have been very useful for others. Clearly this too was a terrible scene.

I suspect it's the same reason why we didn't see it used several times in the prequels: certain abilities with the Force are not common.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
We see Jedi deflect bolts using their lightsabres all the time. Vader just did the same thing in a different way.

I've never been a fan of the explanation that certain abilities are uncommon. It's too videogamey. Kylo Ren stopping the bolt in mid-air isn't actually him having a power Vader doesn't. He's just showing off. Vader could have done that any time he wanted but Vader isn't a emo kid trying to prove he's cool. Vader doesn't need to show off.

When the emperor shoots lightning out of his hand it's not cause he's a 78th level sith lord and has been putting all his points in Lightning (Evil, Red). It's that he could have killed Luke by just stopping his heart or stimulating all his pain nerves or whatever. But lightning looked cool so he did that. Yoda could have done that any time he wanted to.

This is something the prequels simply didn't get. They decided to make it a moral choice system where good guys get to put points in force ghost instead. Unfortunately it looks like it's something the new films aren't going to get either.

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Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
I have to admit, I think the whole mind reading thing kinda suits Kylo Ren's character. He's not the ball of power that Vader is, he just wants to dominate and has found other ways around the handicap of his lacking physical prowess.

 

Offline Det. Bullock

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Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
We see Jedi deflect bolts using their lightsabres all the time. Vader just did the same thing in a different way.

I've never been a fan of the explanation that certain abilities are uncommon. It's too videogamey. Kylo Ren stopping the bolt in mid-air isn't actually him having a power Vader doesn't. He's just showing off. Vader could have done that any time he wanted but Vader isn't a emo kid trying to prove he's cool. Vader doesn't need to show off.

When the emperor shoots lightning out of his hand it's not cause he's a 78th level sith lord and has been putting all his points in Lightning (Evil, Red). It's that he could have killed Luke by just stopping his heart or stimulating all his pain nerves or whatever. But lightning looked cool so he did that. Yoda could have done that any time he wanted to.

This is something the prequels simply didn't get. They decided to make it a moral choice system where good guys get to put points in force ghost instead. Unfortunately it looks like it's something the new films aren't going to get either.

More than videogames those are fantasy tropes that videogames ate up and reused.

In the Wheel of Time saga Aes Sedai (the "mages") regardless of their power level had special talents that could be rare or unique, like a very low level magic user that could however open bigger teleportation portals than the most powerful or some very powerful one that has problems in using healing abilities, other possibilities were either forbidden/secret or continually lost and rediscovered, etc.

Also note that Rey, being a force user, kicked back, I wouldn't be surprised if Vader while of course not aware she was his daughter may have had an inkling she could be force sensitive and having more experience than Kylo Ren he knew about the risk of using similar techniques on potential force users and avoided it preferring the use of torture and less direct uses of the force.
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Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
This thread misses a big chunk of the point, I think. The question should never be "Is Rey a Mary Sue?" for some specific definition of the term. It should be "Does the movie do a good job of justifying her abilities?", and the fact is, given that a large percentage of the audience (myself included) walked out of the theatre thinking that she was overpowered, that her abilities did seem to come from nowhere reflects a failure of storytelling on the part of the filmmakers. Not a massive failure - there were other events in the movie that pulled me out more, and other movies that are far, far more flawed. It didn't prevent me enjoying the movie for what it was (a solid, super nostalgic, fun film that I enjoyed), but it is a flaw.

You can make comparisons to other movies, even other Star Wars movies. People have mentioned that Luke seems to be too good of a pilot out of nowhere, but the first SW movie makes the effort to establish that Luke has decent piloting abilities - first he's playing with his model airspeeder, then Obi Wan explicitly says that he's a good pilot, then Luke mentions it to Han, then Luke mentions an example of his skills during the briefing, then immediately before the battle, Biggs confirms it to a Rebel officer, and even during the battle, Luke makes mentions of runs through "Beggars canyon back home". Now, you can argue that Luke's experience shouldn't be enough to qualify him to fly in combat, and maybe that makes sense if you think about it, but that's irrelevant to the experience of the film - it sets up that Luke is a good pilot, then it pays it off. His piliting abilities are effectively a Checkov's gun - it would have been worse to have all those mentions of his piloting ability, and then end the movie with them planting a bomb on the Death Star or something instead of a space battle, because all that setup makes no sense without a payoff.

It's the same with the Force. Luke uses the force successfully twice in the film - once to stop the remote bolts, under Obi-Wan's tutelage, which sets up that Luke is capable of doing things with the force, and then once at the end, again under Obi Wan's (posthumous) tutelage, in the climax of an entire film where Luke's learning to use the force has been a major subplot, arguably even the driving force (pardon the pun) behind the plot as a whole. And that ignores all the other indications throughout the film that the force is incredibly powerful, and capable of doing amazing things. Again, it spends time during the film explaining a concept, then that setup makes a climactic action scene make sense. Forget the EU, or the rules of the SW universe, or any of that. This is filmmaking 101 - hell, this is storytelling 101. Set it up, then pay it off.

Compare that with Rey. She gets into and flies the Millennium Falcon without any set up that she's capable of piloting any kind of ship at all, let alone that specific type of ship or whatever. Yeah, she drags it across the sand, implying that she's not a very good pilot - which is fine. No set up, no real pay off. But then, pretty much out of nowhere, she flies it through the hulk of the Star Destroyer and pirouettes it into a perfect position for Finn to eliminate the pursuing TIE. Now, you can come up with after the fact justifications for her ability to go from dragging the Falcon through the sand to incredible precision flying in a minute or two (and people have in this thread), but the film itself never delivers them, and it certainly didn't deliver them in advance. Sure, maybe it'll be explained in Episode 8, but as a standalone film - and that's all we can judge it as right now (at least, as far as Rey as a character goes), it fails in this regard.

It's the same for the repairs on the Falcon - we never see her repairing anything, or hear anyone say she's good at it. Maybe as a scavenger she has some aptitude, but we never see it on screen until she can suddenly do it at a clutch moment. Same story with the force. Yes, at a meta level we knew she would turn out to be strong with the force, and yes there was the scene with the sabre and some vague set up from Maz Kanata, but within the film itself, the set up was minimal, and the payoff was huge - she mind tricks a stormtrooper with no onscreen evidence that that was even possible, beats Kylo Ren (the film's big bad, and someone we have on screen evidence for being very strong with the force) at telekinesis - again, something she'd never been introduced to - then beats him in a lightsabre fight with no training.

Again, yes, you can justify these after the fact f you want to, but it remains that Rey demonstrated advanced competence in three specific skills at precisely the right, critical moment to save the day with no or very little foreshadowing. 1 is maybe forgivable, depending on the specific ability (fixing the falcon for example, would be more forgivable than being an unexplained force savant), two is bad storytelling, but three is fanfic-author-insert levels of unexplained awesomeness and bad storytelling, even if she maybe doesn't fit the textbook definition of a Mary Sue.
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Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
Actually, I did see bits in the film that alluded to her being introduced to the force long before the film starts. There are a few hints of Rey being a known quantity. Kylo Ren, when first meeting her, specifically says "So this is the girl I have heard so much about" implying that there is a lot of history behind her. Rey seems unaware of this history: She does not actually remember anything from before she was dropped off as a child, just that she liked it there and wanting to go back there as it was nice. The movie does not explicitly explain things, but it does drop subtle hints.

A lot less subtle to me is that the force itself is a lot more powerful. People talk about Rey finding mind controlling a storm trooper easy, but have we ever dived into Kylo Ren  being able to stop bolts in mid air? Not even Darth Vader had this kind of power, and he's the most powerfull force user to have ever existed, yet the first thing we see from Kylo Ren is stopping a high powered bolt (and later almost stopping the Star Wars equivalent of a .50 only hurting him because he was distracted and that bow normally catapults people). Despite that, Kylo Ren has hardly had any training - Snoke specifically mentions that his training needs to be completed. Those are things that allude to the title of the movie itself: The Force itself has become stronger, and anyone who wields it is a lot more powerfull then their counterparts decades ago.

 

Offline zookeeper

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Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
A lot less subtle to me is that the force itself is a lot more powerful. People talk about Rey finding mind controlling a storm trooper easy, but have we ever dived into Kylo Ren  being able to stop bolts in mid air? Not even Darth Vader had this kind of power, and he's the most powerfull force user to have ever existed, yet the first thing we see from Kylo Ren is stopping a high powered bolt (and later almost stopping the Star Wars equivalent of a .50 only hurting him because he was distracted and that bow normally catapults people). Despite that, Kylo Ren has hardly had any training - Snoke specifically mentions that his training needs to be completed. Those are things that allude to the title of the movie itself: The Force itself has become stronger, and anyone who wields it is a lot more powerfull then their counterparts decades ago.

It's possible, but frankly I have a hard time putting much faith in it being more than just upping the power level so flashier stuff can happen. If that's what is supposed to be going on, then I'd think someone would have said something to support it. Leia mentioning that she's getting more Force vibes recently, Luke having talked about a disturbance in the Force before his disappearance, or something... anything.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
I think that the Force being "more powerful" is just a thing for spectacle and "2016". As I said earlier, a star wars game has already shown us someone Force moving an entire Star Destroyer to the ground. Stopping a bolt is nothing compared to that. The "Force" is as powerful as the plot dictates or the spectacle desires, there is no standard or a metric that we should even try to measure. And that's the whole point of the Force in the first place: metrics are nothing. As Vader had put it in ANH, the Death Star is nothing compared to the Force. That sounded ludicrous, but it very much wasn't. It's as if technology and "the Force" live in different world laws, and the metric of one is irrelevant to measure the other.

Also to say that Black Wolf makes excellent points overall. I agree with 100% he says.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
nonsense that hasn't read Scotty's posts

...do you even know what precision flying looks like? Serious question. You're falling into the same trap Scotty has been disproving the entire thread; that Rey's feats are exceptional demonstrations of skill. You're using a lot of words here but you're not actually attempting to prove your point, much like Luis has avoided making a specific argument for why each of these supposed things demonstrates particularly exceptional skill in its area. You just baldly assert it, maybe offer a minimal thing about "she flew it through a Star Destroyer!" ignoring that the TIEs also pulled that without a hint of effort so there's no reason to think it was particularly difficult for anyone in the movie. Honestly if you watch it, it even looks slower than the Death Star runs.

You're offering us your feelings, not justified by evidence. Criticism requires more. Whereas Scotty and I have made specific reference to multiple points from the movie of why they do not show exceptional skill.

So why on Earth should we take you seriously?
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
I made specific points why they did. You avoided or didn't even mentioned them at all. If I am to follow your criteria of being "taken seriously", well then take a guess where in the circus I plant you on. Fortunately, I never demand that others meet some invisible criteria for being "taken seriously" because I'm not egocentric enough to do so. I have no idea how it is to live every day as a NGTM, but I'm guessing it must be located more or less in the ****ing center of the entire universe.