Author Topic: Britain votes for Brexit  (Read 17322 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
So it's 6am and I'm drinking with a Welsh friend as pissed off as I am. I have literally never been as pissed off in my life as much as I am now. What should we do?
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Offline jr2

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Stop being divisive and deriding the other side as less intelligent and civilized as your side.  It doesn't work.

...But they are!!


:rolleyes:

 
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
It's so ironic and sad to see the left going all ageist and disgusted by the poor after so many decades trying to be the banner of these people. Of course, they were also name-calling everyone as bigoted racists, and still are, as if they didn't get the memo that this is an election-losing strategy. The left won't learn, because the left part of our brains is just stubburnly stupid like that. So prepare to see the left raining down on Trumpsters as being bigoted racists and then risk having the entire moderate opinion go all "Ah **** you I ain't no racist" and decide to vote against Hillary.

Come on, Left, you know you wanna do this. Just keep on calling everyone bigoted and racist and sexist, it will all be fine in the coming zombie apocalypse.


Yes, you got it. I blame this **** 49/49, 49 on Juncker and his eurocrat cronies who have been doing a horrible, terrible job in Europe ****ing the entire union taking it for granted, 49 on the left who has completely lost the plot and decided to be just despicable against the majority of people in our western world because apparently, they are white or men or whatever it is that it is their sin du jour. And the remaining 2 on the Farage moron. Yes, I only give 2 to this idiot. He deserves no more credit than that.

So go on, Left, continue being despicable and see where it leaves you and the rest of the world: in the hands of the Trumps and the Boris of this world. I'll ****ing love, just LOVE that future. Me and my Colt's bullet in my ****ing brain.

So the speech about stopping being divisive and insulting towards people that don't agree with you... is delivered via being divisive and insulting towards people that don't agree with you.

I'll respect people in so far as respecting them as people, but I won't pretend bad arguments aren't bad, or obvious attempts to carve special authority status aren't obvious, or disdain for historical precedent and experts' opinions isn't the worst thing that's happened to public discourse (not that it's a new thing, but it tends to go in waves and is back with a vengeance right now).

 

Offline qwadtep

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Sure, the UK puts a lot of money into the EU, but the opposite is also true (Wales is one of the most heavily subsidized regions in the EU), and roughly half of the UK's trade with the EU. Conversely, only a small part of the EU's trade is with the UK. If trade between both instances would catastrophically break down, the UK would lose more.

But that's not really the point either way: The expectation that the EU will play nice with a country that has repeatedly told them to **** off and now comes begging for benefits is an unrealistic one.
Who said anything about begging? The UK contributes double what it receives from the EU; even assuming losses (which are ultimately unpredictable), it's likely that whatever new trade deals the UK makes will cover their own. It's the smaller member states of the EU--namely everyone who isn't Germany, France, or Italy--that stand to suffer the most.

Quote
The Racists and Political fat cats won.  That is all I have to say at the moment
Drop the racism smear. You can be independent and still allow every Zod from Vasuda Prime into your country.

Half of the leave campaign was built around not letting that happen. Also, you know, this.
And the fact that simply being able to decide to let it happen or not first required such drastic measures should be a huge red flag that the EU has become toxic and anti-democratic.
The second is scumbaggy but irrelevant to the point at hand.


It's so ironic and sad to see the left going all ageist and disgusted by the poor after so many decades trying to be the banner of these people. Of course, they were also name-calling everyone as bigoted racists, and still are, as if they didn't get the memo that this is an election-losing strategy. The left won't learn, because the left part of our brains is just stubburnly stupid like that. So prepare to see the left raining down on Trumpsters as being bigoted racists and then risk having the entire moderate opinion go all "Ah **** you I ain't no racist" and decide to vote against Hillary.
Yeah, it's absolutely depressing. Somehow we've managed to raise a generation with only a cargo-cult-esque understanding of democracy and why people who don't agree with you are allowed to vote.

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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
As a rule of thumb, open borders with poorer nations are against the interest of the domestic lower working class. Thats the logical, intuitive position to take, and it makes sense. It is a simple economic reasoning.

If you want to show the working classes why in this particular special case it paradoxically may not be true, you need to explain it to them clearly with facts, not insult them. If you insult them, they will just double down on the intuitive position.

The working classes are not voting against their own interests from their point of view.

And it is ironic that the Left, which is supposed to champion the rights of the working class, fails to understand them and instead chooses an elitist stance and insults.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 02:43:15 am by 666maslo666 »
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Brexit is a tragically-shortsighted decision based on false memories of a glorified bygone era and a thorough anti-immigrant undercurrent, nothing more, nothing less.  It's an economically catastrophic decision that brings nothing but harm to Britain, and will almost certainly stoke the fires of Scottish and Irish nationalism to exit Britain and enter the EU.  The EU has its problems, no question, but it was always better for Britain to remain in and work to address those problems than throw a tantrum.  And that is precisely what this vote is.

My wife, despite having lived in Canada for the past twenty years, retains her UK citizenship.  Both my kids are also UK citizens.  This decision is nothing but harmful to all of them.

I don't have enough words to express how stupid and terrible this decision is, and furthermore I cannot believe a vote this important to the country as a whole was left to a 50%+1 standard.  It's beyond insane.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 02:42:24 am by MP-Ryan »
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
The thing is that the left did try o explain why people wouldn't be better off if we left. The problem is that it is easier to believe lies. The leave side flat out lied about how all the money that goes to Europe would go into the NHS and people bought it.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 02:56:13 am by karajorma »
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Offline qwadtep

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
I cannot believe a vote this important to the country as a whole was left to a 50%+1 standard.  It's beyond insane.
As opposed to the Maastricht Treaty, which was implemented without any vote at all?

 
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
The thing is that the left did try o explain why people wouldn't be better off if we left. The problem is that it is easier to believe lies. The leave side flat out lied about how all the money that goes to Europe would go into the NHS and people bought it.

Was 'the left' even involved in this? My reading on the situation was that it was mainly a campaign of Cameron VS Johnson and Farage - eg, Tories vs other Tories and UKIP.

And heck, I really wouldn't describe Labour (who did not seem that involved) as a left wing party anymore - They have got a lot of work to do under Corbyn, and he's been quiet during this one.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 03:11:16 am by -Joshua- »

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
I mean the left as in the public. The actual supposedly left wing parties (like Corbyn's Labour) were ****ing useless.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36574526
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Offline The E

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
The thing is that the left did try o explain why people wouldn't be better off if we left. The problem is that it is easier to believe lies. The leave side flat out lied about how all the money that goes to Europe would go into the NHS and people bought it.

Was 'the left' even involved in this? My reading on the situation was that it was mainly a campaign of Cameron VS Johnson and Farage - eg, Tories vs other Tories and UKIP.

The fact that everyone not in the Tory party or parties to the right of it treated it as nothing more than a squabble between Eton schoolboys fighting over who gets to sit at the front of the table was a big part of the problem. The other problem that Labour had is that they'd have to be seen siding with Cameron over an issue, which noone (not even Corbyn) could have pulled off without being discredited in the process.

And yes, the fact that Leave had a couple of really juicy soundbites pre-primed and ready due to decades of more-or-less justified EU bashing coming from the euroskeptic wing of the Tory party helped immensely.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
The thing is that the left did try o explain why people wouldn't be better off if we left. The problem is that it is easier to believe lies.
This is exactly why I lost faith in democracy (believe me, I used to have it). People do not make informed, reasonable decisions. They take the candidates at face value and act mostly on their emotions. The people who actually do make informed decisions are few and far between (and certainly not enough to outvote the morons who don't).

In fact, when choosing between a candidate who generally sticks to the truth and one that shamelessly makes things up, they'll go for the latter. Case in a point, Donald Trump:
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/
The underdog in this race? The one who pays some lip service to truth, at least:
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/hillary-clinton/
The loser who never had a chance? The honest guy (relatively, of course):
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/bernie-s/

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
It's so ironic and sad to see the left going all ageist and disgusted by the poor after so many decades trying to be the banner of these people. Of course, they were also name-calling everyone as bigoted racists, and still are, as if they didn't get the memo that this is an election-losing strategy. The left won't learn, because the left part of our brains is just stubburnly stupid like that. So prepare to see the left raining down on Trumpsters as being bigoted racists and then risk having the entire moderate opinion go all "Ah **** you I ain't no racist" and decide to vote against Hillary.

Come on, Left, you know you wanna do this. Just keep on calling everyone bigoted and racist and sexist, it will all be fine in the coming zombie apocalypse.


Yes, you got it. I blame this **** 49/49, 49 on Juncker and his eurocrat cronies who have been doing a horrible, terrible job in Europe ****ing the entire union taking it for granted, 49 on the left who has completely lost the plot and decided to be just despicable against the majority of people in our western world because apparently, they are white or men or whatever it is that it is their sin du jour. And the remaining 2 on the Farage moron. Yes, I only give 2 to this idiot. He deserves no more credit than that.

So go on, Left, continue being despicable and see where it leaves you and the rest of the world: in the hands of the Trumps and the Boris of this world. I'll ****ing love, just LOVE that future. Me and my Colt's bullet in my ****ing brain.

So the speech about stopping being divisive and insulting towards people that don't agree with you... is delivered via being divisive and insulting towards people that don't agree with you.

I'll respect people in so far as respecting them as people, but I won't pretend bad arguments aren't bad, or obvious attempts to carve special authority status aren't obvious, or disdain for historical precedent and experts' opinions isn't the worst thing that's happened to public discourse (not that it's a new thing, but it tends to go in waves and is back with a vengeance right now).

Your questioning my hypocrisy is well put, and I admit my failings here, except for a very few important differences.

First, I was never this confrontational during the campaigns. I always addressed people online without any name calling and always challenging the arguments, not the people. And yet, I couldn't but see not only everyone going on on how the Leave campaign was bigoted and racist and etc., I saw the mainstream media treating the Leave campaign that way. This backfired. Hard. All I saw was this ****ty divisive attitude that did actually drive people away. I saw this in real time. And they are still doing it.

Second, I am not railing against the Remain voters. Those are merely sensible people who voted reasonably conservative. I am railing against slacktivists and activists and media pundits that kept on calling their opposition as bigots. These are the assholes. Conversely, the Leave voters are the ones being called bigots. Perhaps too old to even know what the hell they are doing (AGEISM FTW!!!!), definitely too white for their own good, etc. The Leave voters. Which apparently comprise half of a nation. Just look at that Bullock's comment up there. Detestable. "Rich leftists are alright, poor right wingers are stupid", etc. The classism within the Left is truly astounding these days.

Third, the Left is completely misdiagnosing everything, and losing elections like it's christmas to their opponents. This pisses me off to no end. There were truly good arguments for Leave, and to see that I'm not just apologizing for xenophobia or any other stupid epiteph you want to glue me in, just think on how Greece was and is being treated. Not even an empire would treat one of its colonies this bad. To know how the back corridors of those discussions went is vomiting inducing. At one point, Varoufakis was threatened with Causus belli if he didn't sign a bailout that everyone in the room knew and confirmed wouldn't work. This sole example is enough for any Leave campaign in any european country. Let alone what they did to all the other so-called "PIIGS" countries (good non-xenophobia there, europe, just great).

So to say that because the xenophobes voted for Leave, therefore Leave is xenophobic, merely outlines how irrational and logic-absent the brains that are uttering these words are. If Europe had behaved rationally and sensibly for the past 10 years, the Leave campaign would have lost in a landslide. And this name-calling was not only untrue and irrational, it backfired.

And yet, all we had in the nets and tvs and newspapers was how "Xenophobia was winning", or how the problem was the white old english bigots. Well, a lot of people just gave all these pseudo-elites their middle finger. And I understand that, albeit being sad at the price of it.

 
Re: Britain votes for Brexit
That's a little bit better, the problem is though that there can be good arguments somewhere for a topic, but it doesn't mean everyone is on that side for that reason, and many of the people I've read commenting and growsing about the leave voters are doing so after running into people stating they voted that way for said poor, emotional reasons.

Not to mention that there's no one block of Left and anyone that tries to group so otherwise is usually doin the whole us vs them approach. In most contexts, particularly my own country, the "Left" is a loose alliance of people with some of the same goals but much disagreement, only united to a particular party leaning because the one thing they can agree on is that they're extremely against what the other party is proposing.

That's why what I was saying is more important, everyone I've talked to that suddenly starts picturing 'the Left' as that this magical monolithic force, somehow both stupid and losing yet also simultaneously threatening and authoritative tends to rapidly lose the capacity for meaningful discourse themselves. Calling out the hypocrisy wasn't just a point of argument semantics, it's that it really deserves to be pointed out that you can't expect other people to identify with their opponent and learn their motivations if you're not doing the same (whether in actuality or appearance is unclear, but the effect is the same in public speaking).

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
While there might be a good case for Leave, we didn't hear it. If you follow the campaigning it was largely lies about how the money we give to Europe could all be spent on the NHS or other bollocks like that. The Leave campaign played on a fear of immigrants.

But the biggest problem was the Remain campaigns failure to actually ****ing do anything. The Lib Dems and especially Labour failed miserably, basically leaving Cameron to do their work. Is it any ****ing surprise that Labour voters didn't listen to him?
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
I agree with your criticism of Labour and Corbyn. I hear none of that in social media. And I should be listening to that.

Anyways, came across this comment that aligns with what I'm saying, probably written by a #Brexiteer. Thought I'd share.


 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Actually, if Cameron had a spine and felt any shame for the fact he's almost essentially broken up the Union just to steal some votes from UKIP, he wouldn't just meekly resign.

He'd call a general election.

He could easily justify it on the grounds that who leads the UK out of Europe shouldn't be decided based on a Tory Leadership election which the electorate have no say about.
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Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
Actually, if Cameron had a spine and felt any shame for the fact he's almost essentially broken up the Union just to steal some votes from UKIP, he wouldn't just meekly resign.

He'd call a general election.

He could easily justify it on the grounds that who leads the UK out of Europe shouldn't be decided based on a Tory Leadership election which the electorate have no say about.

This. I am amazed that he is resigning and not calling an election. Let Labour stand up and say "Vote for us and we will  keep the UK together and in Europe. All the buyers remorse Brexiters would flock to them.

Would it hurt the Tories? No question.

Would it be better for Britain as a nation? No question.
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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
I agree with your criticism of Labour and Corbyn. I hear none of that in social media. And I should be listening to that.

Anyways, came across this comment that aligns with what I'm saying, probably written by a #Brexiteer. Thought I'd share.
<snip>

I feel like making an onion headline out of this: '"I'm not a bigot!" says man who voted to deport the slavs.'

 

Offline headdie

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Re: Britain votes for Brexit
We interrupt your regularly scheduled programming to bring you a related **** up by fox news
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/fox-news-just-reported-the-uk-has-voted-to-leave-the-un-5964181/
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