[Megawolf492]

This is precisely the bogus hubris that was defeated in FS2. This. Precisely this arrogance. The game goes all its way to ensure you get the idea that the arrogance of the GTVA in thinking it could outplay the universe (and the shivans) was so out-of-its-place it's not even funny. 20 years to build one collossal ship that didn't survive 3 minutes into a skirmish against just one big shivan excavator.

There's a big difference between arrogance and not despairing. Just because they aren't freaking out and saying "We're all gonna die!!!!" doesn't mean they are arrogant. Will they build a fleet of Colossi to combat the Sathanas fleet? No. Will they research new technologies and try to find a weak-spot or better way to defeat them? Most likely.

It's very easy to see ships fleeing a system. You watch them subspacing towards a node, then entering a node. And you watch a whole bunch of ships doing the same thing. Why are you stopping them? They are fleeing the system, just let them. The idea that this is hard to understand is ludicrous.

If we were talking about Terrans or Vasudans, that would make sense. But we're talking about the Shivans. They have been known to attack civilians without discrimination or mercy. Now the fact that they are attacking anyone when there is a big operation going on leads me to believe that that big operation has something to do with us and not some "unknowable" mystery of the Shivans.

I only need a text from Volition hinting this was the case and the possibility of it. There's no "Theory" here because this is fiction, and you might build a fiction on top of this one with your theory and others with other theories. As long as they are "possible", "compatible", then it's all that's required. You're not going to win any Nobel prize here figuring out with precise a priori thought what *exactly* the shivan nature is.

I think you misunderstand what he means. Here is the text from the tech room:

Xenobiologists know very little about Shivan society. A leading hypothesis is the hive mind theory, arguing that Shivan society is broken down in specialized functions driven by a collective intelligence. The most convincing evidence supporting this theory is the behavior of Shivan forces following the destruction of the SD Lucifer, the turning point of the Great War. Other experts caution against attributing insectoid properties to the Shivans, regardless of their appearance and behavior.

Just because Volition has a text describing a theory doesn't mean it's the correct one. Of course, you can believe it's the correct one, which is fine. But to say "Volition said it, so it's good enough for me" is taking away from what the text really says.

[Luis Dias]

There's a big difference between arrogance and not despairing. Just because they aren't freaking out and saying "We're all gonna die!!!!" doesn't mean they are arrogant. Will they build a fleet of Colossi to combat the Sathanas fleet? No. Will they research new technologies and try to find a weak-spot or better way to defeat them? Most likely.

They will do so knowing full well that at most the only shot they have against the shivans is either by being ignored or by playing guerrilla warfare long enough. Considering the shivans have erradicated many species before that probably also engaged in guerrilla warfare, I'd say the chances the GTVA has of long term survival in this universe is 100% dependent on the shivan's plans. For instance, in BP we kinda get the idea that the only reason humanity survives is because there's a political struggle being waged in the higher echelons of the galaxy (shivans and vishnans) and that the shivans' programming involve more than "erradicate everyone".

If we were talking about Terrans or Vasudans, that would make sense. But we're talking about the Shivans. They have been known to attack civilians without discrimination or mercy. Now the fact that they are attacking anyone when there is a big operation going on leads me to believe that that big operation has something to do with us and not some "unknowable" mystery of the Shivans.

Why? Is there any evidence whatsoever that this is the case? Even considering all the hypothesis put on the table, that somehow the encounter with Bosch made the Shivans blow up Capella, I really can't see how this "dismistifies" the shivans at all, since too many questions are still on the table.

I only need a text from Volition hinting this was the case and the possibility of it. There's no "Theory" here because this is fiction, and you might build a fiction on top of this one with your theory and others with other theories. As long as they are "possible", "compatible", then it's all that's required. You're not going to win any Nobel prize here figuring out with precise a priori thought what *exactly* the shivan nature is.

I think you misunderstand what he means. Here is the text from the tech room:

Xenobiologists know very little about Shivan society. A leading hypothesis is the hive mind theory, arguing that Shivan society is broken down in specialized functions driven by a collective intelligence. The most convincing evidence supporting this theory is the behavior of Shivan forces following the destruction of the SD Lucifer, the turning point of the Great War. Other experts caution against attributing insectoid properties to the Shivans, regardless of their appearance and behavior.

Just because Volition has a text describing a theory doesn't mean it's the correct one. Of course, you can believe it's the correct one, which is fine. But to say "Volition said it, so it's good enough for me" is taking away from what the text really says.

I had already made all this commentary before. Again, this is just the typical way writers convey what they mean by what they invented, when there's no omniscient narrator to do the job for them: they get some scientist sciensplainin' what the writers intended in the first place and say "it's just a theory", which is a great way to arrange a ways out if so necessary (have the cake and eat it). And of course you can distrust the narration here, and you can even not give a damn about Volition's plans.

[NGTM-1R]

They will do so knowing full well that at most the only shot they have against the shivans is either by being ignored or by playing guerrilla warfare long enough.

This is almost certainly not true. 80 Sathanas is an impressive but finite force, and any finite number can be reduced to zero. As someone who plays games, you should probably be familiar with that concept. Add to that the nature of previous Shivan contacts shows a definite pattern and it would be possible to sequence-break the manner of Shivan invasions. BP's backstory is an explicit attempt to avoid that concept, but it's not a very satisfying answer.

[Luis Dias]

I'd be curious to know this sequence-breaker tactic that somehow eluded every single race beforehand... 80 Sathanas brought to a system and one fifth of which were casually left out to be burned by the star. Not one single hint this was the only fleet at their disposal, not one single hint there aren't thousands of these blowing up stars all around the Milky Way. Of course there could have been only 80 I guess. There could have been only one Ravana or one Sathanas too (before).

And if by "games" you mean the trope where impossible odds are beaten, well then I guess that my viewpoint on FS2 precludes any of that Star Wars optimism. Its theme is horror, not unbridled optimism. Is it wrong to build a post-Capella narrative wherein this optimism surfaces and you get to defeat the Shivans Hollywood style? No. It's just very different to the material we have now. But I gotta tell ya that when you said "games" the first thing that came to my mind was Mass Effect so... yeeeeah.

[Megawolf492]

I'd be curious to know this sequence-breaker tactic that somehow eluded every single race beforehand...

Well, we see that in FS1. I believe that by FS2 we are more advanced than any other race beforehand (other than in subspace tech) simply because we survived the Shivans and used their technology. Kinda like in Mass Effect where the Reapers weren't able to turn off/restrict the mass relay network. It gave the galaxy time to build the crucible. Now I'm not saying that the FS universe has a crucible type thing to defeat the Shivans. What I am saying is that we survived encounters with the Shivans twice and are effectively sealed off from them. That is more than any other species had (that we know of).

80 Sathanas brought to a system and one fifth of which were casually left out to be burned by the star. Not one single hint this was the only fleet at their disposal, not one single hint there aren't thousands of these blowing up stars all around the Milky Way. Of course there could have been only 80 I guess. There could have been only one Ravana or one Sathanas too (before).

I personally believe that the supernova was an accident, so the 1/5 fleet that got wiped was also an accident. However, to say that there could be thousands of fleets out there just because we don't know there aren't seems a bit unreasonable. Sure, there is always the possibility. But given the delay in the fleet getting to known space, it seems like they were spread out. The first Sathanas was sent to clear out the way probably because it was the closest.

If we were talking about Terrans or Vasudans, that would make sense. But we're talking about the Shivans. They have been known to attack civilians without discrimination or mercy. Now the fact that they are attacking anyone when there is a big operation going on leads me to believe that that big operation has something to do with us and not some "unknowable" mystery of the Shivans.

Why? Is there any evidence whatsoever that this is the case? Even considering all the hypothesis put on the table, that somehow the encounter with Bosch made the Shivans blow up Capella, I really can't see how this "dismistifies" the shivans at all, since too many questions are still on the table.

We know that Shivans attacked civilians escaping Vasuda Prime. Of course, they also glassed it, along with the Ancients' planets and nearly Earth too. Given, this is all FS1 Shivans. However, up until the appearance of the Sathanas fleet, the FS2 Shivans behaved exactly the same as the FS1 Shivans. For them to suddenly do a 180 and not care about us (for the most part) doesn't make sense. Of course, you can say "That's the Shivans!" but I don't want to go down that path.

[Luis Dias]

Well, we see that in FS1. I believe that by FS2 we are more advanced than any other race beforehand (other than in subspace tech) simply because we survived the Shivans and used their technology. Kinda like in Mass Effect where the Reapers weren't able to turn off/restrict the mass relay network. It gave the galaxy time to build the crucible. Now I'm not saying that the FS universe has a crucible type thing to defeat the Shivans. What I am saying is that we survived encounters with the Shivans twice and are effectively sealed off from them. That is more than any other species had (that we know of).

We also know the Ancient species was an almost galaxy spanning civilization, which is somewhat at some orders of magnitude a larger civilization than the GTVA at the time of FS2, but I agree this is somewhat "retconned" by the hubris we see in FS2 in Command by them thinking we have out-gunned the Shivans (that had conquered a galaxy-spanning civilization). No such thought should have been possible if the "Ancients" were still thought at the time to have been such a large civilization.

By the end of FS2 there's no hint we got closer to defeat the Shivans than at the beggining. The only thing we've learned from them is that they are way more menacing than we thought at first.

I personally believe that the supernova was an accident, so the 1/5 fleet that got wiped was also an accident.

Well that's an original theory at least. I think it runs counter to their (relentless, ultimately undefeatable, non-ridiculous) character by portraying them as a blundering species, but I would enjoy watching how this could play out.

However, to say that there could be thousands of fleets out there just because we don't know there aren't seems a bit unreasonable. Sure, there is always the possibility. But given the delay in the fleet getting to known space, it seems like they were spread out. The first Sathanas was sent to clear out the way probably because it was the closest.

To understand the point about "the thousands" I refer to the thematic of the whole FS2, which to me is something about how utterly miscalculated was our grasp of their strenght. "80" is just a placeholder number that is sufficiently big to render our hopes dead and not sufficiently large to become ridiculous, hilarious. A sense of "seriousness" is maintained within the narrative with that kind of number ( a number like 3400 ships would have, paradoxically, turn the shivans into a cosmic joke rather than the horror they are with 80....), but the point of the narrative is precisely how the GTVA is hopelessly outgunned in every respect against a species that ultimately doesn't even want to deal with us anymore, and all the clashes they have with us are secondary, marginal, a nuisance.

We know that Shivans attacked civilians escaping Vasuda Prime. Of course, they also glassed it, along with the Ancients' planets and nearly Earth too. Given, this is all FS1 Shivans. However, up until the appearance of the Sathanas fleet, the FS2 Shivans behaved exactly the same as the FS1 Shivans. For them to suddenly do a 180 and not care about us (for the most part) doesn't make sense. Of course, you can say "That's the Shivans!" but I don't want to go down that path.

It's not that they "don't care about us", it's that they massacre every single ship going out of their theater of operations anyway with assets that are about to be destroyed for doing so.

[Akalabeth Angel]

By campaign's end the player goes from regular, run of the mill fighter pilot to squadron leader of an ace unit flying top of the line fighter craft and having more and more responsibility. It goes from hubris and arrogance in invading the nebula, to the most basic and arguably most important victory there is: saving people.

You do go up in your personal career by the same speed the GTVA is toning down its ambitions. Your last sentence is just unreadable. "the most important victory there is... saving people!" wat. It's not even second rate propaganda. And you *do* fail that mission, furthermore the only way to survive it is to boost your engines and leave all those so "important people" behind you (**** you suckeeeeers!). The word victory is ridiculous in this context.

Was Dunkirk a victory for the British? They were defeated in France but saved their military. It's not difficult to understand how a partial evacuation could be considered a success.

Some would argue that waking up in the morning is a victory. Particularly when you're in a war with the shivans.
At the end of FS2, the NTF was defeated, most of the GTVA colonies had not come under shivan attack, the threat of invasion from Capella was ended, and they acquired the technology to re-build the node to earth. 
That and the magnitude of the shivan threat was realized. You're going from the assumption that humanity and vasudan-kind will stop trying. Seeing 80 Sathanas destroy the star wont cause them to despair and prepare for their inevitable defeat. They'll try harder.

This is precisely the bogus hubris that was defeated in FS2. This. Precisely this arrogance. The game goes all its way to ensure you get the idea that the arrogance of the GTVA in thinking it could outplay the universe (and the shivans) was so out-of-its-place it's not even funny. 20 years to build one collossal ship that didn't survive 3 minutes into a skirmish against just one big shivan excavator.

So what? They're alive. They'll keep moving forward. Keep fighting.

I would argue that the victory is not too dissimilar from FS1's. People say the story is cliche. It's not. There's no ultimate victory in FS1, Vasuda is destroyed and Earth is cut off from the rest of humanity. That victory is equally pyrrhic and in the wake of the conclusion there was more loss of life. FS2's story ends in a similar way, but it ends with realization and hope.

FS1 story is clichéd in a different manner, that it is about One Big Bad Ship that is taken out at the Last Minute. There are Big Consequences That Have To Be Paid (like in every cliché, there's always a payment). FS2 slaps you in the face in the sense that The Payments you do along the game against the Shivans have no consequence whatsoever, and were needless anyway. You cut off the link to Capella and sacrifice quite a lot in those ops, but again, the Shivans are just ignoring all of this, they couldn't care less, and then the Big End is not how you defeat an enemy "with great sacrifices", but how you survive because The Enemy wasn't really one, they wanted something different that had little to do with you and just go away by themselves.

You're spouting theory not fact.
Fact is the shivans were actively attacking the GTVA. Fact is destroying those two nodes, cuts off Capella and the shivan force therein from the rest of the GTVA. The fact the Sathanas were blowing up a star doesn't mean that once they're done they wont turn around and attack the GTVA.

Last I heard we didn't know the Shivan motives. Don't start arguing like you do.

How would the shivans know that? If they're told to engage all elements in-system they would attack both military and civilian targets alike. "Secure the area" generally means no shivan craft left alive and attacking all ships, including civilian ones, would follow the past shivan goal of extermination.

It's very easy to see ships fleeing a system. You watch them subspacing towards a node, then entering a node. And you watch a whole bunch of ships doing the same thing. Why are you stopping them? They are fleeing the system, just let them. The idea that this is hard to understand is ludicrous.

What theory do you actually believe exactly?
Because your arguments aren't coherent. You argue for hive theory and that shivans have concept of life but when they attack fleeing ships you equate it to murder and wonder why they're not letting them go. If they have orders to attack EVERYTHING in system, that would include fleeing ships.

Why are they attacking fleeing ships? Because they're there. And because they're not shivan. I don't see that there's a need for anything else.

Also you're talking about the depth of the shivan aggression, in "mass murdering" civilian ships and then you say that collapsing the node is irrelevant. Even if the Sathanas fleet was ignoring the GTVA, the rest of the fleet wasn't and still posed a threat. Destroying the nodes cuts off that threat.

I only need a text from Volition hinting this was the case and the possibility of it. There's no "Theory" here because this is fiction, and you might build a fiction on top of this one with your theory and others with other theories. As long as they are "possible", "compatible", then it's all that's required. You're not going to win any Nobel prize here figuring out with precise a priori thought what *exactly* the shivan nature is.

Point is, presenting a theory as you and others have done which has inconsistencies and cannot explain certain behaviour is no concrete theory at all. If your theory cannot account for all possibilities, it's weak and should be re-examined. Any other approach, where inconsistencies are waived as inconsequential or not relevant is simply half-assed thinking.

[Luis Dias]

Was Dunkirk a victory for the British? They were defeated in France but saved their military. It's not difficult to understand how a partial evacuation could be considered a success.

Dunkerque even quoted in FS2 as a mission title, bear in mind that this "partial victory" as quoted in FS2 is still in a rational part of the game. There's a plan to destroy any passageway for the Shivans to enter it, meanwhile we have to evacuate everyone, here's this particular station, lets go. But all of this goes bananas considering what the shivans didn't do which was to press for conquest, much unlike the real Dunkerque, where the Germans just didn't press fast enough because of their own logistic concerns. Here, the shivans just didn't care.

If a bully beats the crap out of you whle trying to do something else, then you flee away as fast as you can and while you do so he just ignores you and keeps doing what he was doing, is this a victory for you? "Yeey, I managed to escape this bully that had no interest in me whatsoever to begin with".~

So what? They're alive. They'll keep moving forward. Keep fighting.

LOL

You're spouting theory not fact.

I'm engaging with the fictional story called FreeSpace 2, yes.

Fact is the shivans were actively attacking the GTVA. Fact is destroying those two nodes, cuts off Capella and the shivan force therein from the rest of the GTVA. The fact the Sathanas were blowing up a star doesn't mean that once they're done they wont turn around and attack the GTVA.

A supernovae cleanses a system and "radiates it" for years. Arguably all that is now Capella is just a highly radioactive nebula absolutely inhospitable even for Shivans. The GTVA's "wall" was redundant.

What theory do you actually believe exactly?
Because your arguments aren't coherent. You argue for hive theory and that shivans have concept of life but when they attack fleeing ships you equate it to murder and wonder why they're not letting them go. If they have orders to attack EVERYTHING in system, that would include fleeing ships.

Why are they attacking fleeing ships? Because they're there. And because they're not shivan. I don't see that there's a need for anything else.

That was not my point. Your sentences above are sufficiently simple and acceptable except that my point was to underline the sheer valuelessness the shivans put into their fleet "troops", ordering them around to destroy irrelevant targets although it's obvious to even an alien point of view these ships will be shredded to pieces in a few minutes time. You don't even see them fleeing away seconds before the blast. They just don't care.

I was trying to make a contrast - imagine the same op made by humans or vasudans. They wouldn't lose a single ship like that. They would try to coordinate every effort to maximize efficiency to the theater of operations and evacuate every single personnel once the star is triggered. The shivans think absolutely different.

Also you're talking about the depth of the shivan aggression, in "mass murdering" civilian ships and then you say that collapsing the node is irrelevant. Even if the Sathanas fleet was ignoring the GTVA, the rest of the fleet wasn't and still posed a threat. Destroying the nodes cuts off that threat.

So are you saying that culling the nodes was actually a Shivan victory? hehe.

Point is, presenting a theory as you and others have done which has inconsistencies and cannot explain certain behaviour is no concrete theory at all. If your theory cannot account for all possibilities, it's weak and should be re-examined. Any other approach, where inconsistencies are waived as inconsequential or not relevant is simply half-assed thinking.

I guess you're right, in that sense where fiction has to be all encompassing and everything must be rational to the smallest detail, much unlike reality where unexpected, irrational, weird inconsistent **** is always happening. Look, ok, you have a theory that you are proud of and I think that's brilliant. I also think that any theory about the shivans do not require to be absolutely consistent in every small detail about it, and further I don't think you have successfully demonstrated these inconsistencies.

[Megawolf492]

By the end of FS2 there's no hint we got closer to defeat the Shivans than at the beggining. The only thing we've learned from them is that they are way more menacing than we thought at first.

I mean that we learned a lot from the beginning of FS1 to the end of FS2. Sure, we would lose both times, but we are closer to beating them and we aren't dead.

Well that's an original theory at least. I think it runs counter to their (relentless, ultimately undefeatable, non-ridiculous) character by portraying them as a blundering species, but I would enjoy watching how this could play out.

Blundering as in imperfect? Because it seems like you are portraying the Shivans as nearly all-knowing/powerful. If they are, I wouldn't want any FS3 to be made. It's easily plausible that the Shivans somehow messed up on such a complex operation.

Point is, presenting a theory as you and others have done which has inconsistencies and cannot explain certain behaviour is no concrete theory at all. If your theory cannot account for all possibilities, it's weak and should be re-examined. Any other approach, where inconsistencies are waived as inconsequential or not relevant is simply half-assed thinking.

In that case, then every theory on this website needs to be thrown out. If a theory can account for all possibilities, I'd say it ceases to be a theory and becomes fact.

If a bully beats the crap out of you whle trying to do something else, then you flee away as fast as you can and while you do so he just ignores you and keeps doing what he was doing, is this a victory for you? "Yeey, I managed to escape this bully that had no interest in me whatsoever to begin with".~

That doesn't even make sense. If a bully is beating you up, he has some interest in you. He might not care about you, which is probably why he is beating you up. If he gets distracted and you run away, I'd call that a victory for you. Sure, you wont be bragging about it to your friends, but I'm not waiting around for him to finish me.

I'm engaging with the fictional story called FreeSpace 2, yes.

Let's not go down that path, please.

A supernovae cleanses a system and "radiates it" for years. Arguably all that is now Capella is just a highly radioactive nebula absolutely inhospitable even for Shivans. The GTVA's "wall" was redundant.

Surely a ship that can be that close to a star without frying can withstand some radiation from the environment. Even fighters -  that can withstand nuclear and anti-matter bomb shock-waves from point blank - should be able to pass through just fine. Sure, I'd wait a few days for everything to settle, but after that, I'm sure the Shivans could figure something out. And while the supernova might disrupt the nodes, there is still a star even after a supernova, so the nodes will restabilize.

[sunnyB]

I think many people here are confused on the difference between "Theory" and "Hypothesis".

A Hypothesis is a guess with reasonable assumptions on the subject.
A Theory is a hypothesis that has been examined and CONFIRMED based on the parameters of the original Hypothesis....it becomes virtually a fact in its original parameters.

Just as my post originally said: " Are there any Hypothesis...." because i know for a fact there are no "Theories" about the Shivams because we barely know anytjing about them other than they can kick our @$$.


Other than that, all the hypothesi's are very interesting to read.

[AdmiralRalwood]

Well, in the scientific sense, a hypothesis is not a "guess", it's a proposed explanation for an observed phenomenon which is falsifiable. Since none of these "hypotheses" are actually falsifiable (there will be no FreeSpace 3 to provide additional givens), we're clearly not actually using the scientific sense of the words and must fall back on the informal usage, in which case "theory" means, basically, "the results of a contemplative and rational type of abstract or generalizing thinking" (to paraphrase Wikipedia's article on the word).

[CT27]

What do you think the Shivans thought when the GTVA destroyed the Sathanas with the Colossus?

"Hmm, that's interesting...good for them I suppose...send 80 more" something like that is a possible guess.  Mild curiosity that one of their most powerful vessels was destroyed and perhaps a speck of grudging respect but not really concerned in the bigger scheme of things.

[jr2]

K,  random theory:

The Borg (similar to Star Trek) tried to assimilate the Shivans and failed. The Shivans became their own collective, a merging of all of their previous selves.

As a species that is a product of an assimilation gone wrong, they have very little ability to reason, be creative, etc...  They do, however, have the original collectives memories of assimilated technology. They only know one goal: to destroy those that caused their pain and robbed them off the individuality and freedom that is now but a faint, distorted echo in their collective mind.

To prevent the Borg from gaining the advantage over them, they destroy any sufficiently advanced civilization they come across, to prevent them from giving advantage to their enemy through assimilation.

Whatever virtues such as compassion and empathy they once might have had are swallowed up in fear and hatred of their nemesis.

Capella was some sort of anti Borg transportation method or weapon.
This theory obviously needs work & polish,  but the rough idea just popped into my head, so I decided to share in case it inspired anyone.

[NGTM-1R]

A supernovae cleanses a system and "radiates it" for years. Arguably all that is now Capella is just a highly radioactive nebula absolutely inhospitable even for Shivans. The GTVA's "wall" was redundant.

Assumes facts not in evidence. The Shivans were able to destroy a star; their understanding and mastery of high-energy physics is demonstrably so great that their being able to move through a supernova remnant cannot be dismissed out of hand.

[Luis Dias]

A supernovae cleanses a system and "radiates it" for years. Arguably all that is now Capella is just a highly radioactive nebula absolutely inhospitable even for Shivans. The GTVA's "wall" was redundant.

Assumes facts not in evidence. The Shivans were able to destroy a star; their understanding and mastery of high-energy physics is demonstrably so great that their being able to move through a supernova remnant cannot be dismissed out of hand.

I wasn't assuming, I was hypothesizing with the assumption that the humans and vasudans were actually able to outsmart the shivans, an idea that does not necessarily implies the shivans are not that powerful but almost sort of does. Either the shivans are able to do everything, including navigating in the most hazardous space out there, blow up heavens and earths, and if so the idea that we "outran them" is silly, or they aren't that powerful, perhaps even blundering, making mistakes like blowing up suns and what not, and so in that case to cull the node was absolutely redundant.

Don't take me wrong, it was the right decision by the Security Council and so on. You have a monster out there, you shut the door with as many locks as possible, even if you don't believe it will deter the monster. I'm just saying that as a "Victory", it feels the most depressing of them all.

[Akalabeth Angel]

So are you saying that culling the nodes was actually a Shivan victory? hehe.

I think you're disagreeing for the sake of the disagreeing and don't actually have a viewpoint of your own to present. Evidenced by comments like this and questions regarding your own theories going unanswered.
As such this conversation has run its course for me. Have fun

[Luis Dias]

No I wasn't, I find your remark that I have no "viewpoint" of my own annoying and almost offensive (and flat out disproven by this thread alone, regardless of what other theories I have presented in the past about FreeSpace 2 right here in this forum, some of them linked right below in my damned signature), and I think it's extremely silly to speak between "fiction" and "theory" or "speculation" when we are speaking about a work of fiction, I mean I understand the differences implied but I do object to the firmness of any stance here regarding these things as if we are speaking about true phenomena existing out there.

In fictions things are a lot less certain and consistent, they are not designed to be taken that rigorously.

But yes, I also think the conversation has indeed run its course.

[Mobius]

Honestly, I believe we have seen just one Lucifer for storyline purposes. It's clearly the real villain of the game, the super-final-boss which we both love and hate, a role that can be played well only by a specific ship.

[Akalabeth Angel]

In fictions things are a lot less certain and consistent, they are not designed to be taken that rigorously.

That's a bunch of bollocks quite frankly. The consistency of fiction depends upon the talent behind that fiction. The fact that some fiction is slipshod and poorly written does not guarantee that all fiction has those same failings. Some fiction is meticulously crafted, other fiction is banged out for a quick buck or the author(s) is fast and loose with the rules of the world.

In order to waive away inconsistencies in one's theory, a person need first establish a fiction as being inherently inconsistent. But if a fiction is consistent, and only the theory is lacking then the theory is the problem not the fiction to which it is applied.

And a game is constrained by the rules of its programming in the same way that the world is constrained by the physics and laws of nature. Do Shivan AI have different programming which establishes different methods of behaviour? They don't retreat yes, but beyond that are there rules within the code which differentiate them from their terran and vasudan counter parts? This too can be taken as evidence for one theory or another.


Either way, taking care for these things is important because these small details can add believability to a story, particular for someone who wants to tell a story within FS2 itself. Different stories appeal to different people and to different levels of degree. A lot of Star Wars fans for example have a big love of Boba Fett, I always just thought he was some guy who showed himself a decent tracker but little else. Suddenly he's the father of all stormtroopers. His relevance in the prequels is a symptom of people taking the character too seriously. Of placing greater importance on him than was necessary or justifiable.

With FS2 however I don't think that's the case, because people are creating theories to apply to the entire game. It's an overarching idea, not over stating specific details. But rather presenting a theory and comparing to a multitude of case examples and seeing whether it explains the behaviour or fails to.

[The E]

Just FYI: there's no difference between shivan, vasudan or terran AI.