What about the Forerunners? They and the Ancients should fight. That would be AWESOME.
In the end I think the Shivans would just raep everything, Flood included.
...I think the Shivans would just raep everything...
Seeing as how the shivans are purely space-fearing with no activities outside of their ships, it'd be next to impossible to infect a significant number of shivans for the flood to be a credible threat. That is assuming that the flood found the Shivans viable hosts to begin with.
Covenant Slipspace jumps are accurate, however UNSC jumps are highly inaccurate. Commander Keyes doesn't initiate a Slipspace microjump in his initial defense of Sigma Octanus because he is afraid of jumping into the planet.As I recall, that would only be because he wouldn't have time for his Nav computer to calculate the jump properly.
Don't forget that Halo ships tend to move with velocities of hundreds or thousands of km/s, no simply dozens of m/s.Yes, at cruise speed, but would a Longsword really have the ability to pull the turns required to dogfight at that speed?
Don't forget that Halo ships tend to move with velocities of hundreds or thousands of km/s, no simply dozens of m/s.Yes, at cruise speed, but would a Longsword really have the ability to pull the turns required to dogfight at that speed?
Sorry for double post.
There would be no dogfight. It would be a strafing run.Good point, as it seems Longswords are designed for that rather than close combat. They are fighter-bombers, after all.
There is in Freespace. ;7Don't forget that Halo ships tend to move with velocities of hundreds or thousands of km/s, no simply dozens of m/s.Yes, at cruise speed, but would a Longsword really have the ability to pull the turns required to dogfight at that speed?
Sorry for double post.
That's not how it works in space. There is no turning in space.
Turning 180 degrees means nothing. Changing the direction of velocity is what does. Do you remember when that happens? I'm fairly certain it rotates a damaged shield quadrant out of the way and rolls to bring another to bear.Well I'm sorry. I'm not paying attention in physics class anymore...
Although HALO being quite successful, there's no shortage of ship model pics and info.Actually, yes there is. There is only one UNSC starfighter documented: The Longsword. and there is negligible data available about it, other than the fact that it's a long-range fighter-bomber with the capacity of nuclear warheads, missiles, and 120-150 millimeter cannons. The Covenant Seraph fighter has even less data available, though it seems to be a light interceptor or possibly a recon craft.
BUT, even the small UNSC ships often carry nuclear weapons. UNSC Frigates and Destroyers carry between 1-3 nukes, capable of destroying a huge amount of covvie ships at a time, what would those do to GTVA and Shivan ships which have minimal weapons and are clustered close together. Even the tiny prowlers carried (14?) nuclear mines. Ghost of Onyx even had a prototype of a new nuke which essentially blew the atmosphere off and destroyed half a planet(!!!) MAC rounds (piece 600 ton slug fired at 120,000KM/s + ships current speed) would probably smash most GTVA ships, and thats then the UNSC Defence platforms fire 3000 ton slugs at about half the speed of light, those destroyed Covvie ships AND any ship behind the target. Archer Missiles on most ships, Pillar of Autumn had 7800 missiles it could of fired at pretty much the same time. (although, the PoA was heavilly upgraded).The effectiveness of nukes against covenant ships is negligible. One of the generals in the halo novels was said to have fired a nuke at a covenant cruiser with almost no affect against it's shields, at the sacrifice of an entire squadron of longsword fighters who were distracting it.
nukesThose were because the Covenant ships still had their shields down due to the fact they just exited slipspace and also due to the fact that they weren't engaged in battle, so they wouldn't have their shields raised. Also remember that it took over a dozen nuclear devices to achieve that much destruction, as well as the fact that all the covenant ships were probably close enough to be under the mercy of multiple nuclear explosions going off at once.
Battle of Onyx:
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Onyx
towards the end of Battlegroup Starlingrad section: "As the Covenant closed to engage and entered the field the HORNETs were detonated, destroying all but four of the remaining Covenant warships"
nukesFrigates are even smaller than Cruisers in the Halo universe, meaning that they probably can't handle a nuke like Cruisers can.
Battle of Sigma Octanus IV (not QUITE as effective as i thought it was):
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Sigma_Octanus_IV
Opening Actions section: "the nuclear warhead deployed earlier, was detonated, completely draining the shields on the two frigates"
...The covenant also have plasma torpedoes, If I recall....
Don't quote me on that (even though you just technically did); I just remember them vaguely using them at one point in the novels. As I remember it took them an exceptionally long time to charge; several minutes for each, but they did substantial amounts of damage, literally boiling away half a destroyer-sized ship with each impact....The covenant also have plasma torpedoes, If I recall....
Plasma torpedoes?! Well, I'd imagine those would be just as efficient anti-bomber weapons (compared to the GTM-55) as anit-cap ship missiles.
...The covenant also have plasma torpedoes, If I recall....
Plasma torpedoes?! Well, I'd imagine those would be just as efficient anti-bomber weapons (compared to the GTM-55) as anit-cap ship missiles.
nukesThose were because the Covenant ships still had their shields down due to the fact they just exited slipspace and also due to the fact that they weren't engaged in battle, so they wouldn't have their shields raised. Also remember that it took over a dozen nuclear devices to achieve that much destruction, as well as the fact that all the covenant ships were probably close enough to be under the mercy of multiple nuclear explosions going off at once.
Battle of Onyx:
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Onyx
towards the end of Battlegroup Starlingrad section: "As the Covenant closed to engage and entered the field the HORNETs were detonated, destroying all but four of the remaining Covenant warships"nukesFrigates are even smaller than Cruisers in the Halo universe, meaning that they probably can't handle a nuke like Cruisers can.
Battle of Sigma Octanus IV (not QUITE as effective as i thought it was):
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Sigma_Octanus_IV
Opening Actions section: "the nuclear warhead deployed earlier, was detonated, completely draining the shields on the two frigates"
I keep reading that HALO craft fly at clicks per hour. My question is, Is there any sort of proof behind that? I mean, look at the BSG: Re-Imagined series. Out of all the episodes that I've seen (...which, to be honest, isn't a whole lot...), I've only seen one episode where you could see through the cockpit of a Viper and it look VERY similar to FS combat. For all we know, dogfighting in HALO may be the same in some sense.
The various novels mention speeds quite often. HOWEVER, they don't mention actural top speeds of ships or anything like tht, as in space, there is no top speed (Except maybe .99 light speed). Battles can often happen over HUGE areas, such as the space between a planet and a moon, MAC rounds travel at over 100,000km/s and can still take a minute or so to reach a target, Plasma torpedos take a fair while to reach targets. Also, for ships that xcan cover such a vast distance, they will also close in very close, so close that in an insant, 2 ships can crash toogether so fast that they vaporise.
Of course, in Halo Wars, the Spirit of Fire engages a covvie ship, but that fight is so close together they aren't useing standard cap ship weapons, they seem to be useing close in weapons and troops.
Yeah, at one point in Halo Wars the Spirt of Fire accelerates around a collapsing star in what seems like only a few seconds, using it as a slingshot to escape the shield world.
Once I heard the numbers they were throwing around in the novels I found the believability of all the fights rather stretched.
The whole discussion is moot. Chuck Norris would wait to see who survives then kill all of them using only the roundhouse kick maneuver. Because he can.
Does a roundhouse kick have a range of several thousand kilometers? :nervous:
MAC rounds (piece 600 ton slug fired at 120,000KM/s + ships current speed) would probably smash most GTVA ships, and thats then the UNSC Defence platforms fire 3000 ton slugs at about half the speed of light, those destroyed Covvie ships AND any ship behind the target. Archer Missiles on most ships, Pillar of Autumn had 7800 missiles it could of fired at pretty much the same time. (although, the PoA was heavilly upgraded).
QuoteMAC rounds (piece 600 ton slug fired at 120,000KM/s + ships current speed) would probably smash most GTVA ships, and thats then the UNSC Defence platforms fire 3000 ton slugs at about half the speed of light, those destroyed Covvie ships AND any ship behind the target. Archer Missiles on most ships, Pillar of Autumn had 7800 missiles it could of fired at pretty much the same time. (although, the PoA was heavilly upgraded).
What happens to the firing ship? Surely it would be destroyed?
You'd think. They are railguns, but I have no idea how they could manage recoil from a slug fired at that size with such a large amount of force.QuoteMAC rounds (piece 600 ton slug fired at 120,000KM/s + ships current speed) would probably smash most GTVA ships, and thats then the UNSC Defence platforms fire 3000 ton slugs at about half the speed of light, those destroyed Covvie ships AND any ship behind the target. Archer Missiles on most ships, Pillar of Autumn had 7800 missiles it could of fired at pretty much the same time. (although, the PoA was heavilly upgraded).
What happens to the firing ship? Surely it would be destroyed?
However, the most important fact to renember is: Halo isn't real :P
However, the most important fact to renember is: Halo isn't real :PYes, but every science fiction has to be believable to a certain degree, or the accessibility and immersion become proportionately less.
I'll admit i'm no real physics expert (And, i'll warn you: i've had a couple of drinks), and i have no idea what kind of forces a MAC gun would make in a vacume such as space, but I do know that ere is only so much 'Energy'/force in the universe at a given time, So for a MAC gun to fire, the energy released formt he gun that wasn't in the projectile must go somewhere. As the above poster said, they could use some form of springs, but again, that energy must go somewhere still.I'm sure there is an engine calibration to account for the opposing force akin to the recoil, although it could be like the space station, where the assembly the gun is attached too moves back with the full cannon, before slowly returning back to fire position.
Unless those springs somehow can provide a boost of electrical power for the ship? :P
Forget my last post: Aparently people dont understand the laws of the MAC Cannon. Really. The MAC (Magnetic Accelerated Cannon) uses the Physics of Magnetisum to charge the Cannon. Using the Kinitic Physical Laws the MAC can do major damage to Armor. Plus: If im right, Doesnt Subspace use Magnetic Properties meaning No Shields? Making the Lucifer and Shivan Strikecraft Weak to their Weaponary?
What you said, it makes no sense.
Yes, I know all that, and no, it doesn't make any sense.
What he seems to be saying is that MAC guns would do damage to armor through kinetic energy. Which is .... rather obvious, really.
Would MAC rounds punch through a Lucifer's shields? We don't know, because the GTA/GTVA doesn't utilize mass drivers on the Halo scale. We literally have no idea how these two things would interact.
UNSC MAC weapons do seem like they would be rather effective against GTVA vessels, seeing as how they can be fired at extremely long ranges with very powerful yield.
On a different note relating to ship speeds, I've always wondered if the speed reported in FS is a velocity relative to a specific battlespace, and perhaps that battlespace may be hurtling through space insanely fast. Perhaps all the ships within a specific theater match 'battlespace velocity' upon exiting warp for ease of engaging one another (hitting something moving 700 km/s with a shell in space is incredibly difficult. I'd say it's a miracle Halo ships can hit anything at all). When an FS ship exits subspace, it's initially traveling +300m/s and decelerates, which could be the final stage of this proposed battlespace velocity matching.
On a different note relating to ship speeds, I've always wondered if the speed reported in FS is a velocity relative to a specific battlespace, and perhaps that battlespace may be hurtling through space insanely fast. Perhaps all the ships within a specific theater match 'battlespace velocity' upon exiting warp for ease of engaging one another (hitting something moving 700 km/s with a shell in space is incredibly difficult. I'd say it's a miracle Halo ships can hit anything at all). When an FS ship exits subspace, it's initially traveling +300m/s and decelerates, which could be the final stage of this proposed battlespace velocity matching.
However, that does not explain why there is a velocity cap, which is infinitely frustrating on escort missions where enemies appear several kilometers away in different directions.I was assuming that FS plasma thrusters behave similarly to RL plasma thrusters, in which they are highly efficient, but not terribly powerful. This would mean that eventually there comes a point at which you are still accelerating, but the increase in velocity is so small as to be almost unnoticeable. Granted, the FS limits do occur too quickly for this to be the case, and are probably low, but it could explain the behavior and we can pin the unrealistic acceleration on artistic license (well rather gameplay license. FS would be a whole different thing if the accelerations were realistic).
Relativity fail!This is unnecessary. I have not failed to grasp the principles of relativity. I have failed to know your assumptions on the relative strengths of UNSC and GTVA engines.
Think about what you're saying here. Any arbitrarily selected point in space, including the chair you're (presumably) sitting in right now, is 'hurtling through space insanely fast' from the perspective of another inertial reference frame.Of course. This is basic to everyone's understanding of reference frames. I can't see how this alone is applicable as a counterpoint to my suggestion. Perhaps there's something else you mean to say but have not yet said.
That means that the ships in FreeSpace, even if they do perform velocity matching, are still at some kind of massive velocity disadvantage to every more 'realistic' setting.It seems as if the unstated assumption (which is more to the point) you're using is Halo engines are more powerful than FS engines, and therefore even if an Orion were to emerge next to a Halcyon, the Halcyon could accelerate or decelerate to escape and the Orion would have to wait for its jump drive to recharge before it could pursue it. Does anyone know the acceleration characteristics of a UNSC ship? And who said velocity matching occurs once and that's it? It may be a continuous process. But as there's nothing in the FS Canon to validate this, I'll retire the idea to my own mind.
However, that does not explain why there is a velocity cap, which is infinitely frustrating on escort missions where enemies appear several kilometers away in different directions.I was assuming that FS plasma thrusters behave similarly to RL plasma thrusters, in which they are highly efficient, but not terribly powerful. This would mean that eventually there comes a point at which you are still accelerating, but the increase in velocity is so small as to be almost unnoticeable. Granted, the FS limits do occur too quickly for this to be the case, and are probably low, but it could explain the behavior and we can pin the unrealistic acceleration on artistic license (well rather gameplay license. FS would be a whole different thing if the accelerations were realistic).
Of course. This is basic to everyone's understanding of reference frames. I can't see how this alone is applicable as a counterpoint to my suggestion. Perhaps there's something else you mean to say but have not yet said.
Actually it is possible to have an acceleration that is constant but very small compared to 15 m/s. But this is not consistent with the game, because if the acceleration were that small then it would take a very long time for a ship to accelerate to 15 m/s. And that's pretty much what esarai said.However, that does not explain why there is a velocity cap, which is infinitely frustrating on escort missions where enemies appear several kilometers away in different directions.I was assuming that FS plasma thrusters behave similarly to RL plasma thrusters, in which they are highly efficient, but not terribly powerful. This would mean that eventually there comes a point at which you are still accelerating, but the increase in velocity is so small as to be almost unnoticeable. Granted, the FS limits do occur too quickly for this to be the case, and are probably low, but it could explain the behavior and we can pin the unrealistic acceleration on artistic license (well rather gameplay license. FS would be a whole different thing if the accelerations were realistic).
This makes no sense. Acceleration occurs independent of velocity. Real life plasma thrusters will not 'lose acceleration' as velocity increases. Thus, the point you describe where the increase in velocity will become unnoticeably small will never happen, because the increase in velocity will remain constant.
Actually it is possible to have an acceleration that is constant but very small compared to 15 m/s.
Actually it is possible to have an acceleration that is constant but very small compared to 15 m/s.
Actually it is possible to have an acceleration that is constant but very small compared to 15 m/s.
That's not what we claimed, though - he claimed the acceleration would become smaller as the velocity increased in the case of real life plasma thrusters.
Now, his argument may have been that said acceleration becomes smaller proportional to the total velocity, but if that's the case then we're back to the relativity fail argument since the total velocity is zero in the ship's inertial reference frame.
I think acceleration drops off because it requires exponentially more energy to accelerate objects to very high c fractional speeds (i.e. .99c). If the energy expended does not change, the acceleration drops. (If I'm wrong, tell me.)
When you approach the speed of light your acceleration drops off, doesn't it?
Since you can't actually go faster anymore, you end up becoming more massive instead (or something)?
I think acceleration drops off because it requires exponentially more energy to accelerate objects to very high c fractional speeds (i.e. .99c). If the energy expended does not change, the acceleration drops. (If I'm wrong, tell me.)
I think acceleration drops off because it requires exponentially more energy to accelerate objects to very high c fractional speeds (i.e. .99c). If the energy expended does not change, the acceleration drops. (If I'm wrong, tell me.)
Yep, that's exactly right. 15 mps^2 are 15 mps^2, whether you're at rest or at .9 c. However, the amount of energy expended to get those 15 mps^2 differs.
This makes no sense. Acceleration occurs independent of velocity. Real life plasma thrusters will not 'lose acceleration' as velocity increases. Thus, the point you describe where the increase in velocity will become unnoticeably small will never happen, because the increase in velocity will remain constant.
This would mean that eventually there comes a point at which you are still accelerating, but the increase in velocity is so small compared to your present velocity as to be almost unnoticeable.
Note: the idea of all of the pilots on all sides willingly not going faster than some speed relative to an arbitrary reference frame, even when it's a life-or-death situation... is bogus.
This makes no sense. Acceleration occurs independent of velocity. Real life plasma thrusters will not 'lose acceleration' as velocity increases. Thus, the point you describe where the increase in velocity will become unnoticeably small will never happen, because the increase in velocity will remain constant.
Check the post, please. I never said they 'lose acceleration,' nor did I claim that acceleration 'becomes smaller.' I guess what I said was too ambiguous. I meant that eventually you will attain a velocity that makes additional increases in velocity insignificant, so let me rephrase:QuoteThis would mean that eventually there comes a point at which you are still accelerating, but the increase in velocity is so small compared to your present velocity as to be almost unnoticeable.
Here's an extreme example: say you accelerate at 7 m/s^2 for a very long time until you're traveling approximately 1/3 c. 1/3 c >> 7 m/s. At this point, an additional 7 m/s added to your velocity is almost unnoticeable, since it will be hard to tell 100,000,000 m/s from 100,000,007 m/s. Though given the potential thrust of a plasma thruster, the FS values become incredibly unrealistic and suggest this may not be the case.
at this point, an additional 7 m/s added to your velocity is almost unnoticeable, since it will be hard to tell 100,000,000 m/s from 100,000,007 m/s
Shivan beams and shields could be very different from the Covenant's. So no, we cannot say that MACs would punch through Lucifer shields. Some here don't even believe GTVA beams could pierce Lucifer shields.
I agree. Still, it's not canon.
2. Halo ships may be faster, but didn't the Shivans come to the Capella star from the jump node in just a few days? That would be tens of thousands of kilometers, so we know that the game speeds were just for balance.
3. The Haloverse never had ships that could generate a supernova - though the Halo Array was an extremely powerful weapon, it was destroyed.
1. We all know that the Shivans have an extremely large Empire, and that the Sathanas fleet was just a small group of armed transports.Once again I think this is true, but you need to make a distinction between canon and speculation. For all we know, those 80+ Saths were carrying every last Shivan in existence.
the Sathanas fleet was just a small group of armed transports:rolleyes:
1. We all know that the Shivans have an extremely large Empire, and that the Sathanas fleet was just a small group of armed transports.Once again I think this is true, but you need to make a distinction between canon and speculation. For all we know, those 80+ Saths were carrying every last Shivan in existence.
Then what does that make their smaller craft?
Scouts. Juggernauts can also be heavy transports.
Scouts. Juggernauts can also be heavy transports.
just thinking about a Jugg being a transport makes me go :shaking:
Scouts. Juggernauts can also be heavy transports.
just thinking about a Jugg being a transport makes me go :shaking:
"Via Petrarch's statements in the end cutscenes, Volition seems to imply that the Shivans destroyed Capella to create subspace access to their homeworld and used the Sathanses as glorified personnel transports for their journey. "
Unless the Shivan nomads were all military personnel, you can call the Sathanas as an armed civilian transport. They should be carrying Shivan civilians to their homeworld, right? (or maybe, there's no such thing as a "Shivan civilian")
If you contradict with that, and refuse to believe that there's a larger Shivan force than the Juggernaut fleet, you'll have to believe that the Shivans were barbarians, running from galaxy to galaxy to find empires to destroy.Um, no we don't. How did you reach that conclusion? :wtf: Counterexample: The Shivans' having only 80 Saths is also consistent with the Capellan Barbecue Theory (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Capellan_Barbecue_Theory).
If you contradict with that, and refuse to believe that there's a larger Shivan force than the Juggernaut fleet, you'll have to believe that the Shivans were barbarians, running from galaxy to galaxy to find empires to destroy.Um, no we don't. How did you reach that conclusion? :wtf: Counterexample: The Shivans' having only 80 Saths is also consistent with the Capellan Barbecue Theory (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Capellan_Barbecue_Theory).
Admiral Petrarch's speculation is not evidence. At most it's evidence that :v: had a few ideas for a maybe-sequel, but that's all in the meta, not canon.If you contradict with that, and refuse to believe that there's a larger Shivan force than the Juggernaut fleet, you'll have to believe that the Shivans were barbarians, running from galaxy to galaxy to find empires to destroy.Um, no we don't. How did you reach that conclusion? :wtf: Counterexample: The Shivans' having only 80 Saths is also consistent with the Capellan Barbecue Theory (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Capellan_Barbecue_Theory).
There are several theories and evidences that lead to it. As I said, Admiral Petrarch speculated that the Saths were supposed to return to their Home System...
... which, in theory, would be home to a much, much bigger group of Shivan ships and planets.It's also possible that their home system is currently abandoned because their whole civilization went into space.
The Ancients were supposed to have also been destroyed by hundreds of Lucifer-class vessels, and each could be stopped in subspace. However, the Ancients failed to do this, leading to the destruction of their race.The Ancients never said that there were hundreds of Lucifers. They didn't even mention one! They only said that Shivans have shields. Besides, how does that make Shivans barbarians? From the Ancients' description of themselves, the Shivans probably did the other species in the universe a great service.
We all know that the Shivans have an extremely large Empire, and that the Sathanas fleet was just a small group of armed transports.No, we don't know that. We can speculate that this is how it could be, but it is equally possible that, for example, the ~80 Saths and all the other Shivan ships present during the events of FS2 were the very last of the Shivans.
If you contradict with that, and refuse to believe that there's a larger Shivan force than the Juggernaut fleet, you'll have to believe that the Shivans were barbarians, running from galaxy to galaxy to find empires to destroy.There's more speculation in the games about the theory that the Shivans specifically target advanced and potentially dangerous civilizations that have mastered the use of subspace to at least some extent. I'd hardly call that barbaric. Then again, in both cases there is strong lack of hard canon facts. Nothing states how things are straight in your face.
The Ancients were supposed to have also been destroyed by hundreds of Lucifer-class vessels, and each could be stopped in subspace. However, the Ancients failed to do this, leading to the destruction of their race.As it was already said, no one in the games ever stated that there were hundreds of Lucifers beating up the Ancients. The Ancients encountered an advanced species flying ships that the Ancients could not harm. Based on the events of the games, it is rather safe to assume that that species was the Shivans.
Interesting speculation and discussion can be interesting. But if there is no concrete canon information, one cannot simply make statements like "we all know..." and "this is how things are...", but should rather use phrases like "in my humble opinion..." or "it might be possible...". Examples:
No, we don't know that. We can speculate that this is how it could be, but it is equally possible that, for example, the ~80 Saths and all the other Shivan ships present during the events of FS2 were the very last of the Shivans.
And how do we know that they're an "empire"?
Also, the Saths might be transports, if the supernova thing did indeed create some supernode. But it is equally possible, that they are tools for creating supernovas and that creating supernovas serves some completely unrelated purpose.
There's more speculation in the games about the theory that the Shivans specifically target advanced and potentially dangerous civilizations that have mastered the use of subspace to at least some extent. I'd hardly call that barbaric. Then again, in both cases there is strong lack of hard canon facts. Nothing states how things are straight in your face.
As it was already said, no one in the games ever stated that there were hundreds of Lucifers beating up the Ancients. The Ancients encountered an advanced species flying ships that the Ancients could not harm. Based on the events of the games, it is rather safe to assume that that species was the Shivans.
The Shivans beat up the Ancients, but that doesn't necessarily demand an overly large assault force. If you can't harm them, there need not be too many of them. Possibly there was a Lucifer and a large amount of fighters and bombers, based on the fact that the Ancient monologues stated that the Shivans could not be harmed and as far as we currently know, the Lucifer is the only shielded Shivan capital ship. That might imply that there were no other Shivan capital ships fighting the Shivans. Or it might also be that there were, but the Ancients never got close enough to discover that those capital ships would be vulnerable.
Also, the Ancients did indeed discover that the Shivans were vulnerable in subspace. Unfortunately they made this discovery at a point where most of their empire was gone and the few survivors merely tried to avoid the inevitable end of their race.
It isn't possible that the Sathanas fleet represented the entire Shivan race.It is as possible as it is that they returned to their home through the Capella supernova. Possible, not an absolute truth.
The Ancients encountered much, much more Lucifer-class warships (OK, possibly not exactly "Lucifers", but similar, shielded warships)Again, possible but not a fact, not a truth. Can be used in speculation ("I do think that the Ancients encountered several shielded capital ships") but can't be claimed as a fact ("The Ancients did encounter several shielded capital ships").
It is a canonical theory that the Shivans were "cosmic destroyers", so I'm calling that barbaric. Destroying a race for no reason would be called retarded and thus, my term "barbaric".It is also canonical that the Shivans attacked the Ancients, who were a rather advanced race that had been conquering the galaxy mercilessly. A "barbaric" approach would have been to attack anything they came across, not just the Ancients.
Use your common sense. If they weren't Lucifers, they were similar, shielded warships that the Ancients couldn't harmAgain, very possible but not a fact. If the Lucifer paved way with smaller craft, the Ancients might have been running low on morale, eventually abandoning all ideas regarding fighting them and then they could have been hunted by other, unshielded capital ships.
The Ancients described the Shivans as a "plague that can be harmed". So we could imply that the Shivans had a "plague" of Lucifers that could be harmed in subspace. Your statement about the Ancients never getting close to discover the Shivans' vulnerability is quite confusing. Wasn't it said in the cutscenes, "the destroyers darkened are skies like a plague that can be HARMED"?Quoting is good only when it's accurate: "They are like the others. Strange, hideous, resisting, fighting. Only these were not like the others. They did not die."
You are obviously debating hard canon facts, but there are times when you'll need to assume the unmentioned. For example, isn't it perfectly logical that the Shivans probably used ships similar to Lucy's (with shields, etc.)? This isn't canon, but as I said, use your common sense.As I said, speculation can be interesting indeed. But the choice of words. Saying "This is how things are..." gives the impression that you (think you) know better, even without canon information and facts. And that can be perceived as arrogant. If you say "This is how things could be in my theory..." immediately should raise thoughts in other people. Thoughts like "Hmm. Your theory indeed sounds interesting, and I'm going to present some counter-arguments based on my own thoughts about the matter.", followed by some very lively discussion.
It is as possible as it is that they returned to their home through the Capella supernova. Possible, not an absolute truth.
Again, possible but not a fact, not a truth. Can be used in speculation ("I do think that the Ancients encountered several shielded capital ships") but can't be claimed as a fact ("The Ancients did encounter several shielded capital ships").
It is also canonical that the Shivans attacked the Ancients, who were a rather advanced race that had been conquering the galaxy mercilessly. A "barbaric" approach would have been to attack anything they came across, not just the Ancients.
It is also canonical that the Shivans attacked the Terrans and the Vasudans, who were rather advanced races that had been waging war with each other for 14 years. It is entirely possible that, without the Shivans, that war might have eventually destroyed or at least ruined both races.
It is entirely possible that "The Shivans are the great destroyers but they are also the great preservers". They destroy races that are too advanced for their own good, thus preserving lesser races.
Again, very possible but not a fact. If the Lucifer paved way with smaller craft, the Ancients might have been running low on morale, eventually abandoning all ideas regarding fighting them and then they could have been hunted by other, unshielded capital ships.
Quoting is good only when it's accurate: "They are like the others. Strange, hideous, resisting, fighting. Only these were not like the others. They did not die."
"The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed. But we have no way to deliver the hurt."
What I was stating was this:
- the Shivans attack the Ancients
- possibly only the Lucifer (and fine, yes, possibly several Lucifer-class ships) with fighters and bombers engage the Ancients in direct battle
- the Ancients take note that the attacking ships are shielded
- possibly there are Shivan cruisers or even destroyers somewhere, but the Ancients cannot engage them, because the shielded fighters, bombers and Lucifer(s) are already beating the crap out of them
- thus, the Ancients fail to notice that some Shivan ships could be harmed in direct combat
And it is also possible that the Ancient monologues neglected to mention that some Shivan ships were unshielded and could be harmed. And why not? Many ships still remained shielded and even if the Ancients could have taken some ships out, they couldn't stop a Lucifer. Or fighters/bombers.
As I said, speculation can be interesting indeed. But the choice of words. Saying "This is how things are..." gives the impression that you (think you) know better, even without canon information and facts. And that can be perceived as arrogant. If you say "This is how things could be in my theory..." immediately should raise thoughts in other people. Thoughts like "Hmm. Your theory indeed sounds interesting, and I'm going to present some counter-arguments based on my own thoughts about the matter.", followed by some very lively discussion.
Choice of words.
Fine. Call me an impolite person. I already said that I used the wrong grammar in supporting my theory. All I'm saying is that there are numerous, credible evidences that prove that my theory is (OK, so you won't call me "arrogant" again) quite sensible.Right, thank you. This is what I was after. If you remember that you only have a theory and express your thoughts like that, everybody's gonna be happy.
Again, use your common sense. Why would the Ancients dramatize something they already expect? Why include something you're already used to into an epic poem that explains how hideous and potent your opponent is? They're most probably trying to state that there was a WAY, one desperate way, in which they could damage their greatest fear (as I said, this fear is probably the impenetrable Lucifers).Again, I was not exactly talking about the "shield no work in subspace" revelation, but rather about the Ancients fighting the Shivans. The Shivans didn't necessarily need many shielded capital ships. Take a Lucifer, or a few, then some fighters and bombers, then throw in some unshielded capital ships. Maybe the Ancients found out that some capital ships could be damaged. But if there is a decent amount of shielded ships, regardless of their numbers, what were they gonna do?
Yes, I know that. I didn't exactly mean that the Shivans were "entirely evil", but that they were DESTROYERS. They wiped out empires for unknown reasons. Barbarians don't attack anyone that passes by. For example, Attila the Hun focused on destroying his enemies, not noecessarily everyone he knows.Indeed we do not know the reasons behind the Shivans' motives. But we can speculate.
So we're going to use this formula to determine how much kilotons the Harbinger yields.
The Harbinger deals 3,200 damage. So divide 3,200 by 80 = gives you 40. So 40 X 40 Kilotons = 1600 Kilotons, or 1.6 Megatons.
But the Harbinger was stated to be FIVE THOUSAND MEGATONS! So 5000 divided by 1.6 = 3,125.
Now we'll use this formula to find out how much yield it takes to destroy a Sathanas.
What does this 3,125 value signify?
(Also: Ridiculous discussion is ridiculous)
What units are these in? Dimensional analysis ftw.
What units are these in? Dimensional analysis ftw.
What? Megatons.
I was just stating a fact that based on my calcs, I figured out that it took about 5 Petatons (5,000 teratons) to destroy a Sathanas.
So how on Earth would a MAC gun be able to do significant damage on a Shivan juggernaut?
And, lol, the Flood themselves won't be able to affect the cybernetic Shivans.
The Shivans are actually a fusion of biological and technological components.
They seem immune to diseases, though. Would you imagine a Shivan having colds?
They seem immune to diseases, though. Would you imagine a Shivan having colds?
[Citation Needed]
Find proof, and it might have a leg to stand on. Until then, it's safer to assume they can be infected.
The Shivans are actually a fusion of biological and technological components.
So this means they can be infected by the Flood?
They seem immune to diseases, though. Would you imagine a Shivan having colds?
Besides, how are the Flood supposed to infect them? Crawl inside their ships (which is utterly impossible)?
Presumably the Flood would start with some Terrans or Vasudans, make use of their technology and ships (adapting and enhancing them, as they always do), board a Shivan vessel, and proceed from there.
Once a Gravemind was online and Shivan forms were incorporated into it it'd all be downhill from there,
Presumably the Flood would start with some Terrans or Vasudans, make use of their technology and ships (adapting and enhancing them, as they always do), board a Shivan vessel, and proceed from there.
Once a Gravemind was online and Shivan forms were incorporated into it it'd all be downhill from there,
Lol, generally Shivans refuse boarding missions. They'd beam the transport right away to bits.
Explain Hallfight to me.
Go ahead. Explain away the canonical boarding of a Shivan vessel by Terrans.
Explain Hallfight to me.
Go ahead. Explain away the canonical boarding of a Shivan vessel by Terrans.
That was an Azrael, which had three useless tiny turrets.
We're talking about a crusier or above, which had anti-fighter beams that could rape anything that gets close to it, including transports.
Why are we talking about a cruiser or above?
Explain the capture of the Taranis.
Even given that, do you know how easy it is to disable and disarm a cruiser, corvette, or destroyer? We're not talking tough stuff here.
You've already given up on your original notion that boarding actions are impossible. Don't pull the stealthy retreat crap; concede your points transparently.
There is not a ship in the FreeSpace universe that would be particularly hard to board, Shivans included.
(And even so, this is totally irrelevant: there are Shivans on an Azrael, and the question here is whether the Flood could get to them. Your 'cruiser+' argument is both faulty and tangential.)
You do NOT think that the Flood can infect the whole Sath fleet, do you? Cause if they infected EVERY SINGLE SHIP in the GTVA AND SHIVAN ARMADA, they still wouldn't be able to board a hundred juggernauts (rounded off).
Sure. It's easy to disable a corvette or a destroyer. But not easy to board it, considering it has enough armament to pulverize the boarding party. Also, if the Flood DOES board a corvette/cruiser/destroyer, then the Shivans will just destroy it, just like what they did with the Taranis.
Wait, are you expressing the fact that the Shivans can be infected, or that the Flood can defeat the Shivans?
Read the Halo books please. The flood infected the city ship High Charity, a very substantial portion of the Covenant fleet, at least two Halo rings, the Ark, and at least two Human ships (Pillar of Autumn and In Amber Clad)and New Mombasa.
You seem to be laboring under the impression that: 1) There are comparatively few ships in the GTVA/Shivan armada. We never see the extent of either. For a bit of a canon perspective, the Bakha, a relatively uncommon bomber, has had over six thousand craft produced. Ponder that for a moment. 2) It takes many ships to board a Juggernaut. it takes two wings of bombers to completely disable one, played correctly. See the above. Six thousand. 3) The boarding ship has to survive the process. It doesn't. It takes one infection form and a few seconds to doom entire ships.
That'd be great... if you knew it was infected. Side note: If you can disable it, you can disarm it. There's even a wingman order to that effect. Thirty turrets would take about five minutes for a couple wings of fighters.
Both. If the former is true, the latter becomes certain.
If they had that large of a force, why was the GTVA so damn scared of the Shivan armada? And, lol, the Shivans can just "beam" the Flood to bits - hold them off with a bunch of Shivans, and have one Shivan wait at the back, charging its beam, and fire at the Flood (like what it did in Hallfight).
Plus, didn't the Juggernauts each possess a fighter complement of around 200? They can just summon a crapload of fighters to destroy the Flood attackers, and the fighters attempting to disable its beams (which didn't happen in Bearbaiting, most likely for game balancing reasons).
Dude.....Are you honestly trying to debate in a Universe vs Universe thread without knowing the universes involved?
Ever heard of a little thing called tactics? You cannot postulate a general strategy and claim it would be effective all the time.
Plus, whose side are you on anyway? Wait. Whose side are you, General Battuta, and Scotty on? Are you just expressing that "Halo can beat FS in some aspects, so that's what I'm gonna debate on, but overall this debate is ridiculous so officialy I won't pick any sides"? What??
Or maybe you really aren't serious, you're just trying to prove and disprove others' comments at times, but are delibaretely washing your assess off the debate, cause you're not officialy picking any sides anyway?
Okay, details. You say that the winning strategy for the Shivans would be to have a few guys stand back and have one guy beaming the attackers to bits. What happens when they're getting flanked? Not to mention that the Flood is transmitted as a disease, which means that exploding hosts is the last thing you want next to you.
Second, you claim a Sathanas' fighter complement would protect it all the time. I have to ask you, did the US military protect the US from the pig flu? The Flood is a sentient disease, NOT a conventional enemy. It's a whole different ballgame, played with different rules.
Third, there are so many scenarios that can be dreamt up for a Flood infestation that everything hinges on the question whether or not the Flood can infect the Shivans. There is no canon information about that, hence there are no statements we can make about it either way.
Can't speak for the others, but personally, I am on the side of a good debate. The subject matter here is patently ridiculous, so the debating style becomes ever more important (and really the only interesting thing here).
Assuming that other ships have the same style as the Azrael, with a corridor-like structure, it would be impossible for the Flood to actually "flank" the Shivans. Also, the beam weapon the Shivan used seems to utterly disintegrate an object to some kind of "particle effect", meaning that the Flood would be disintegrated, instead of exploding in a dirty disease spread.
But that can't spread around different ships, then. Shivans are strictly a spaceborne species: as far as we know, they "live" in their ships.
As for me, I find it near impossible for the Flood to successfully render Shivans as hosts. They're a fusion of biology and technology - how can a disease affect a half cybernetic being? So, maybe the Shivan will die, but the Flood can't use its corpse and turn it into part of their forces.You have a canon source for that? Didn't think so. To reiterate: Without knowing how Shivans would react to the Flood, or any disease, this whole thing is pretty much pointless.
So, which side are you on - FreeSpace, or Halo?Malcolm Reynolds.
Plus, whose side are you on anyway?I say that Shivans will probably beat the Covenant and maybe even the Flood, but you, Marcov, need to learn the difference between fact and conjecture.
You still have Shivan troops in close quarters combat. Every time that happens, there's a risk of infection. You still have Flood on your ship, infecting your air circulation.
What about this. Flood infects Transport. Infected Transport docks with Sath. Sath gets infected. Fun time for everyone!
You have a canon source for that? Didn't think so. To reiterate: Without knowing how Shivans would react to the Flood, or any disease, this whole thing is pretty much pointless.
Malcolm Reynolds.
Plus, whose side are you on anyway?I say that Shivans will probably beat the Covenant and maybe even the Flood, but you, Marcov, need to learn the difference between fact and conjecture.
Think back to Halo, what did the flood have? Numbers. That's how they'll get you, mate.
The only time I ever showed a sign of conjecture was when I said that Shivans wouldn't probably defect to the Flood, since they're half-cybernetic.And that's a big problem, since nearly all you've said is conjecture.
You still have Shivan troops in close quarters combat. Every time that happens, there's a risk of infection. You still have Flood on your ship, infecting your air circulation.
Lol. You could always beam them to death from a far range. Seriously, if you could beat the crap out of the Flood as a marine, being much more biological than a Shivan, how can Shivans lose against the Flood?
QuoteWhat about this. Flood infects Transport. Infected Transport docks with Sath. Sath gets infected. Fun time for everyone!
What about this. Sathanas launches fighters and terminate the transport 4 clicks from the Sath with Trebuchets. Fun time for everyone!
QuoteYou have a canon source for that? Didn't think so. To reiterate: Without knowing how Shivans would react to the Flood, or any disease, this whole thing is pretty much pointless.
FreeSpace wiki, of course. :wtf:
Plus, whose side are you on anyway?I say that Shivans will probably beat the Covenant and maybe even the Flood, but you, Marcov, need to learn the difference between fact and conjecture.
The only time I ever showed a sign of conjecture was when I said that Shivans wouldn't probably defect to the Flood, since they're half-cybernetic.
Wait, are you expressing the fact that the Shivans can be infected, or that the Flood can defeat the Shivans?
As for me, I find it near impossible for the Flood to successfully render Shivans as hosts. They're a fusion of biology and technology - how can a disease affect a half cybernetic being? So, maybe the Shivan will die, but the Flood can't use its corpse and turn it into part of their forces.
The former. Which you at this point have already conceded.
And once one Shivan is infected, the Flood have won. The Gravemind will have access to every piece of information it needs to completely disassemble the Shivan species.
Bear in mind here that the Flood can successfully capture and operationalize Covenant warships, which have weapons as powerful as a Sathanas and far longer-ranged.
Go play some FreeSpace 2. Disable and disarm a Shivan ship - it's not hard. Said Shivan ship cannot 'beam' anything. You can board it at your leisure.
This debate is fundamentally pretty stupid, because it is a crossover debate, but I am interested in getting you to at least assume a position that somewhat resembles logic. The Flood have all the capabilities the Terrans or Vasudans have, plus the ability to absorb and use the biology and technology of the Shivans, plus limitless numbers that dwarf even the Sathanas fleet.
Recall that the fleet that the Flood brought to bear against the Forerunners in the final attack on the Maginot Sphere consisted of 4,802,019 ships. Even the Shivans never assembled numbers like that.
Look, in the end, the Haloverse just operates on such a larger scale that comparisons are basically meaningless. FreeSpace is about investing meaning into conflicts over single systems; Halo's story is about the fate of the galaxy in a conflict with a transgalactic life form.
I repeat: Have you read the Halo books? Unless you now prove otherwise, I am going to be forced to assume you know exactly zero about how the Flood works. When you play as John in the Halo games, take a good look at the Marines around you. They have a bad habit of dying and becoming more Flood. It happens with stressing regularity, assuming you've actually got friendlies in the area. If you'd listen to the in-game radio chatter, you'd hear the wails and shrieks of complete and utter terror as Marine outposts are overrun in seconds. Am I being clear at all? In close combat, the Flood wins, especially in confined ships quarters.
What about this. Sathanas doesn't know that transport is infected. Infected Transport docks with Sath. Sath gets infected. Fun time for everyone.
No, you don't have a source for that, because anything Halo-verse-ish has never been encountered in FreeSpace. We do not know if they can be infected. Seeing as they are at least semi-biological, I'm going with yes. Prove me wrong.
And when you said the Shivans would just beam everything to death, because they're obviously the next best thing to omnipotent in that regard. Oh, and when you said that it's impossible for the Flood to board a hundred Juggernauts. Or when you said, of all things, that Shivans would win against a disease in close combat.
You've made a point on that matter. However the Shivans can beam the infection to bits, as I've said, stopping the disease.
During the battle at the Maginot Sphere, Flood boarded nearly half of the warships under Offensive Bias' command.
That was half of a fleet of eleven thousand ships.
In a single battle.
These ships were aware of the Flood, knew that they were coming, and had tremendous firepower.
The Flood took half of them anyway.
If you're going to make arguments about how 'lol the Shivans would beam them' - when the Flood have access to equally powerful plasma weapons with far longer range, and equally precise subspace drives - you're going to need to find a way around this.
So either concede this statement:QuoteYou've made a point on that matter. However the Shivans can beam the infection to bits, as I've said, stopping the disease.
to be wrong, or justify it.
Look, you don't get it. The Flood are not a bunch of dumb space zombies. They are more intelligent than the most powerful AIs ever built by a civilization that dwarfed the Ancient empire and more widespread than even Iain Bank's culture.
And whatever you can do, they can take it from a single corpse and know how to do it better.
They're a nightmare.
The point is not 'wtfomg the Flood win'. The point is that the Flood are going to be at the very least a match for the Shivans.
They're subspace drives aren't that precise.
I was trying to say that, if the Flood boards a Shivan ship, a Shivan can probably beam them right away, preventing the disease from spreading. Seems like you didn't pay much attention.
Err...that's fanboyism.
Slipspace drives behave exactly like FreeSpace subspace drives, except they are longer-ranged and faster. They are tactically just as precise.
Again, explain how this can possibly be correct:
if the ships under Offensive Bias' command could not stop the infection from spreading when their armada was far larger than even the greatest concentration of Shivan forces we've ever seen.
See, that remark just reinforces the fact that you don't know **** about Halo, because that's a canonical statement. The Flood were specifically written to be a challenge to Iain Banks' Culture, which the Forerunners are modeled from.
They're longer-ranged? Then you can't properly use it in a fight. Can they jump 100 clicks from their position? Plus, didn't it take months to make slipspace jumps, and FS can do that in hours/a few days?
Now you'll have to prove to me that the Ancients were NOT an empire of multiple galaxies. Cause in the poem it states they were. Now, how big, actually, is a galaxy? Billions of stars. That's right. And a battle that occurs in order to capture a galaxy would require, yes, billions of ships, which the Shivans did, according to the poem (since it stated that the Ancients WERE a civilization of galaxies). Now prove that wrong.
The point is not 'wtfomg the Flood win'. The point is that the Flood are going to be at the very least a match for the Shivans.
So it's mature to say that Halo wins? It's also mature to say that FreeSpace can also beat Halo in several aspects, and it's possible that FreeSpace can win against Halo. Period.
On the other hand, you, remarking that the Flood were a "nightmare", reflects transparently that you are probably a Halo fanboy. This is similar to what I said that "Shivans = epic win". Wow, look, we're a bunch of fanboys debating, but the other fanboy claims he's attempting to make a good debate, the other simply tries to prove that FreeSpace can win in several aspects.
The point is not 'wtfomg the Flood win'. The point is that the Flood are going to be at the very least a match for the Shivans.
QuoteSlipspace drives behave exactly like FreeSpace subspace drives, except they are longer-ranged and faster. They are tactically just as precise.
They're longer-ranged? Then you can't properly use it in a fight. Can they jump 100 clicks from their position? Plus, didn't it take months to make slipspace jumps, and FS can do that in hours/a few days?
QuoteAgain, explain how this can possibly be correct:
if the ships under Offensive Bias' command could not stop the infection from spreading when their armada was far larger than even the greatest concentration of Shivan forces we've ever seen.
Now you'll have to prove to me that the Ancients were NOT an empire of multiple galaxies. Cause in the poem it states they were. Now, how big, actually, is a galaxy? Billions of stars. That's right. And a battle that occurs in order to capture a galaxy would require, yes, billions of ships, which the Shivans did, according to the poem (since it stated that the Ancients WERE a civilization of galaxies). Now prove that wrong.
QuoteSee, that remark just reinforces the fact that you don't know **** about Halo, because that's a canonical statement. The Flood were specifically written to be a challenge to Iain Banks' Culture, which the Forerunners are modeled from.
On the other hand, you, remarking that the Flood were a "nightmare", reflects transparently that you are probably a Halo fanboy. This is similar to what I said that "Shivans = epic win". Wow, look, we're a bunch of fanboys debating, but the other fanboy claims he's attempting to make a good debate, the other simply tries to prove that FreeSpace can win in several aspects.
Now, wait a little before I quote Scotty's reply.
It's STATED in FreeSpace wiki, I just forgot where I read it.
He's somehow managed to read our posts so badly that he's missed the fact that nobody has said anything about Halo winning.
Marcov, please show some maturity and concede. I promise you, none of us will speak of it again if you do.
It's not 'losing', it's showing 'maturity'. This is a discussion, not an argument.
Marcov, please stop being a dumbass.
And now you seem to be ganging up and playing around with me. For what reason?
Ever since I said that the Shivans could defeat the Flood, you WERE rendering me as pointless, immature, and "young", yet all I can see in you is that the Flood would win in this debate
If I'm a Halo fanboi explain to me why I've said this to you
three timesQuoteThe point is not 'wtfomg the Flood win'. The point is that the Flood are going to be at the very least a match for the Shivans.
There is no point in arguing about whether the Flood or the Shivans will win in a fight. That has never been the question here. We don't know how many vessels the Shivans have, how big their biggest ships are, or how much territory they control. We don't know any of that about the Flood either. They're an immovable object and an irresistible force, respectively.
The assertion is that the Flood can definitely give the Shivans a run for their money. Specifically, that they could infect Shivans, turning their knowledge and technology over to the Flood. Furthermore, the Flood was never defeated, something the Shivans can't say. They have literally never been stopped - only slowed down, and that was accomplished only by wiping out every sentient life form in the galaxy by the use of weapons that dwarf the Capella supernova, and even that could not kill them.
They're in the same ballpark of power. We can't say who would overwhelm the other; we just know that they're both very powerful.
but for the sole purpose of trying to say that the Flood would win over the Shivans.
@General Battuta:
Excellent. You, assertingly state that both are extremely powerful races, yet you make huge paragraphs about how the Flood would overwhelm the Shivans.
Isn't that quite confusing?
EDIT: Alright, in fact you should've quoted yourself right at the start. Do I have to scan this whole thread before posting?
Do I have to scan this whole thread before posting?
Maybe just for Marcov I'll start a Xeelee vs. Shivans thread. :p
You ARE usually, if not always, on the side against FS, yet in the end you always say that this "discussion is ridicoulos."
I don't give a **** what this means about 'which universe would win in a fight'. Nor do I care whether the mysterious Shivan species could wipe out the equally mysterious Flood species or vice versa. Right now, with the canonical information, I'd put my money on the Flood, since the species they have defeated are more powerful than what we know of the Shivans, but there's just so much we don't know about either side. The Shivans could have all sorts of tricks up their sleeve. There's no way to tell who would win.
Also, for guys like Aardawolf, I'm not a hot-headed anti-social person you think I am. Wait a while and I might stop. Currently I'm just pointing out the fact that GB states that the Flood can win, yet says it doesn't matter who wins. That is my point.
Yes, I've read that post. I READ it, even before you started this comment.
So, what exactly are you trying to prove? That you think the Flood would win, however, we're not sure of that.
I don't give a **** what this means about 'which universe would win in a fight'. Nor do I care whether the mysterious Shivan species could wipe out the equally mysterious Flood species or vice versa. Right now, with the canonical information, I'd put my money on the Flood, since the species they have defeated are more powerful than what we know of the Shivans, but there's just so much we don't know about either side. The Shivans could have all sorts of tricks up their sleeve. There's no way to tell who would win.
There's no way to tell who would win.
Your love for FreeSpace seems to be based on its ability to beat up other universes. You're not much of a FreeSpace fan, if that's the case. You would be an even worse BSG fan. BSG is one of my favorite canonical universes, and every other SF universe in existence would blow the **** out of it.
No, I'm not on any side. You're committing the fallacy of the excluded middle.
These are my positions:
Given current hard canonical figures, the Flood annihilate the Shivans.
Current hard canonical figures do not tell the full story.
Given the full story, there is no way to tell who would win in a crossover fight. This is a much more complicated, nuanced position than the binary 'Halo side vs. FreeSpace side' you want to assume. I hope it's not too much for you to handle.
No.
Given the full story, there is no way to tell who would win in a crossover fight. This is a much more complicated, nuanced position than the binary 'Halo side vs. FreeSpace side' you want to assume. I hope it's not too much for you to handle.
You can't 'base anything on non-canon theories'. That's retarded. That's basing things on making **** up.
Look, frankly, my real purpose in this thread has very little to do with Halo or FreeSpace and a lot to do with figuring out how stupid you're going to act.
Frankly I think I've got to be getting close to the bottom of the barrel.
So all the Shivan theories are all nonsense?
In other words, you joined this thread in a hope to point out that we're all stupid, senseless debaters?
I rephrased that to be a lot more diplomatic. But no, actually, I think almost everyone in this thread has been remarkably sensible, and careful to base their arguments on hard figures carefully sourced and cited, rather than imaginary scenarios.
You obviously have some learning to do before you get there.
And I still don't give a **** about who would win in a fight, and I don't know why you're coming back to it.
You've already conceded all the points that I entered this thread to correct. Unless you have some further questions on the topic of whether Flood can infect Shivans or how easy it'd be to board a Sathanas, or eighty Sathanases all at the same instant, I think I'm done here.
I will continue linking this thread on IRC for everyone's reading pleasure. ;7
Seriously, do you want to bring up the whole "Common sense is also worth giving a crap about". "No it isn't" argument?
However, I still think that the Shivans can win with their canonical force. They could, perhaps, slowly decimate the Flood by generating supernovas.
No. The Shivans wouldn't attack the Flood directly. They would lure them into the system by day 3 (since it took ~3 days to supernova), jump out, and the Flood would be trapped (unless they could escape, that is).
OK. Now I'm outta here :lol:
The problem with non-canon theories is that, while at first they might include "common sense", they can quickly devolve into meaningless garbage. Many things are not known and are not explained in canon material, so people creating non-canon theories can and even must make **** up. And with the lack of canon information to back up the claims, it will soon end up into "my theory is better than yours because I think it has common sense". Hell, I could present a theory, where Chuck Norris appears, takes out the Shivans, takes out the Flood, takes out every single scifi universe and punches everything that remained after the onslaught. And I could say my theory pwns because it is supported by facts (http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/).QuoteGiven the full story, there is no way to tell who would win in a crossover fight. This is a much more complicated, nuanced position than the binary 'Halo side vs. FreeSpace side' you want to assume. I hope it's not too much for you to handle.
Actually, my take would be that this would be incorrect. You CAN sort out who would actually win, based on non-canon theories.
Usually debates go on forever and I'm getting quite bored, so at the moment I think I'll dismiss this (which I already said earlier).Finally.
Usually debates go on forever and I'm getting quite bored, so at the moment I think I'll dismiss this (which I already said earlier).Finally.
Let's hope in future for the good of both parties that this happens sooner.
Usually debates go on forever and I'm getting quite bored, so at the moment I think I'll dismiss this (which I already said earlier).Finally.
Let's hope in future for the good of both parties that this happens sooner.
Big debates like debates between entire SciFi universes can get extremely complicated, long, and even sometimes users beat around the bush, give fake info etc.
If you want a good, accurate debate it will usually be ship vs. ship/fleet vs. fleet debates. The simpler it gets, it also gets more orderly and sensible.
Still, a supernova could own 4.8 Million ships if in one system
The supernova calcs are really one of the few saving graces of FS against several worldwide popular Sci-Fic series. Also, another reason why Halo would have an incredibly large amount of ships and a huge-scaled war is that it is far more successful than the FreeSpace series of games. Plus, the fact that it was released rather lately would mean the game's engine would support larger, more destructive battles than FS ones.
Still not reading posts, I see. Yes, a Supernova could destroy everything. However, if you have FTL travel capability, however slow it may be, you can outrun it with ease.
Nonsensical statement is nonsensical. The big fleet battles of the Halo verse have so far only been mentioned in novels and backstory. As such, game engine limitations have nothing to do with this.
Which means that Shivans win in that particular battle, which ultimately leads to the conclusion that Shivans would win in the debate.
However, what if FS got as successful as Halo? Wouldn't they have books and all? Books, in which some could be written by some die-hard FS fan and create a story which revealed the motives of the Shivans, and that they had 500 thousand million gazillion ships actually? You were right about the engine thing, but definitely not the popularity factor.