[Paladin327]

Allright actually, they did know the big shivian armada was coming, their scout gave them intel.

Ahahahaha BULLCRAP.

The worst thing Kappa 3 could have encountered was the Sath. It wasn't until Into The Lion's Den they became even vaguely aware of Shivan numbers.

At the time of A Game of TAG, the existance of the Sathanes was still unknown

With the technology they had thirty years ago it's a mircale we won the great war.

In FS1 they didn't have different weaponry than the Terrans and Vasudans, only at the first few missions shields were new. Only the Lucifer was special.

And last but not least it's hard to believe the Shivans had no technological advancement in 8000 years, but suddenly a lot of it within 30 years.
Though this can be explained in other ways (for example the Shivans of FS1 and FS2 are different Shivans).

 this line is most likely referring to "they" as in the GTA/PVN. that's how i took it anyway
 

[MatthTheGeek]

How can you make any conclusion on Shivans given the little we know about them from canon sources ? (which is the way  wanted it to be of course)

Replay a Lion at the door. It is said there that Shivans have  a new cruiser, a new fighter class, but NEVER that they have new weapons (for example at the cain there).
In fact, at no place in the campaign is it ever said that the Shivans have a new weaponry like beam cannons or flak guns. Well for flak guns you can say they appear only on new ships (Moloch/Sath/Ravana), but the sudden appearance of beam cannons on demons, cains, lilith? Doesn't get mentioned at all.

Yeah, and what ? The fact that they don't mention it doesn't mean that they had beams before. On the other hand given that we can equip Fenrises with beam weaponry (with a probably ill-suited power grid given the age of those ships), and that all people in the GTVA are used to see cruiser-sized ship with beams, I don't see why they should be surprised by the new weapons of Shivans. We're 30 years later, nearly none of those GTVA pilots never fought Shivans before. And remember that the Rakshasa just blew an Aeolus up, so for sure we're aware that they now have beams .

And last but not least it's hard to believe the Shivans had no technological advancement in 8000 years, but suddenly a lot of it within 30 years.

Of course that's hard to believe. Like I said above, this is a whole part of the mystery of Shivans, and by no way a reason to call the FS1 canonicity into question. And nothing says us the Shivans didn't made any advancement in 8000 years, for example nothing says they had lasers or inter-system jumps drives for fighters, or the ship designs they have now, the only thing explictly stated is that they had shields.

[Uchuujinsan]

this line is most likely referring to "they" as in the GTA/PVN. that's how i took it anyway

With the technology they had thirty years ago it's a mircale we won the great war.

If the GTA/PVN was meant by "they", why use "we" later?

Yeah, and what ? The fact that they don't mention it doesn't mean that they had beams before. On the other hand given that we can equip Fenrises with beam weaponry (with a probably ill-suited power grid given the age of those ships), and that all people in the GTVA are used to see cruiser-sized ship with beams, I don't see why they should be surprised by the new weapons of Shivans. We're 30 years later, nearly none of those GTVA pilots never fought Shivans before. And remember that the Rakshasa just blew an Aeolus up, so for sure we're aware that they now have beams .

They mention Maras because they hadn't Maras before, they mention the Rakshasa because they didn't have a Rakshasa before, they mention beam cannons because they didn't have beam cannons before. Oh wait.
In the tech room a change in weaponry by the shivans gets mentioned once: The Belial has more laser turrets than the (old) Trident.
Only for GTVA ships refitting with beam weapons gets mentioned, for example the GTD Orion. And it gets mentioned, not ignored.

Well, the part with the "hard to believe" is only a minor argument, and it alone certainly wouldn't be enough to declare something retconned.

[Mongoose]

If had wanted all Shivan ships in FS1 to have beam-type weaponry, they could have faked it by doing what they did with the Lucifer's Shivan Super Lasers.  The fact that they didn't, and that the Lucifer was the sole ship in FS1 with that kind of weaponry, suggests that those ships were never meant to have beams in the first place.  Just because this new development wasn't mentioned in the command briefings and intelligence fluff we saw doesn't mean the pilots in-universe wouldn't have been informed of it elsewhere; hell, the reconnaissance video clip that's used for that briefing broadcasts the fact loud and clear itself.

[Paladin327]

If had wanted all Shivan ships in FS1 to have beam-type weaponry, they could have faked it by doing what they did with the Lucifer's Shivan Super Lasers.  The fact that they didn't, and that the Lucifer was the sole ship in FS1 with that kind of weaponry, suggests that those ships were never meant to have beams in the first place.  Just because this new development wasn't mentioned in the command briefings and intelligence fluff we saw doesn't mean the pilots in-universe wouldn't have been informed of it elsewhere; hell, the reconnaissance video clip that's used for that briefing broadcasts the fact loud and clear itself.

yeah, the recon footage shows a ravana class destroyer comming through the portal as well

If the GTA/PVN was meant by "they", why use "we" later?

the line is actually "With the technology we had 32 years ago, its a miracle we won the great war"

[Uchuujinsan]

the line is actually "With the technology we had 32 years ago, its a miracle we won the great war"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXTEZB2-OE4
at 3:00 : With the technology THEY...

@Mongoose

If :V: had wanted all Shivan ships in FS1 to have beam-type weaponry, they could have faked it by doing what they did with the Lucifer's Shivan Super Lasers.  The fact that they didn't, and that the Lucifer was the sole ship in FS1 with that kind of weaponry, suggests that those ships were never meant to have beams in the first place.  Just because this new development wasn't mentioned in the command briefings and intelligence fluff we saw doesn't mean the pilots in-universe wouldn't have been informed of it elsewhere; hell, the reconnaissance video clip that's used for that briefing broadcasts the fact loud and clear itself.

I didn't say that shivans ships were supposed to have beams when FS1 was made, only that they were supposed to have had beams when FS2 was made.

Just because this new development wasn't mentioned in the command briefings and intelligence fluff we saw doesn't mean the pilots in-universe wouldn't have been informed of it elsewhere

If you assume already that indeed the weapons changed, it would have to be that way. But normally everyone would at least refer to that info again in a command briefing.
And look at it from a  meta level - there is no way that the guys making the game didn't realize they changed the weaponry. And I can't see why they would fail to mention it and even include a statement like the one in The Great Hunt, where they comment that the Shivans had such a high technology level back then.
I don't want to say my interpretation is the only possible one, but I can give very good reasons.

Btw, the FS2 intro (slightly) contradicts my claim, we don't see many shivan ships, but we never see them firing with beams.

[TrashMan]

If had wanted all Shivan ships in FS1 to have beam-type weaponry, they could have faked it by doing what they did with the Lucifer's Shivan Super Lasers.  The fact that they didn't, and that the Lucifer was the sole ship in FS1 with that kind of weaponry, suggests that those ships were never meant to have beams in the first place. 

And that's why it's called RetCon.
FS1 was before FS2. It maeks sense that at that time [V] didn't want beamz on shivan ships. Yes, they weren't mean to have beamz..THEN.
But, FS2 is made later and [V] might have changed their minds. Thus, FS2 in essence overrides FS1..like the nodemap for example.

This is a very real possiblity.

[Kie99]

I think she was talking about the PVN and GTA as well, hence the other pilot saying 'No shields, no flak guns, no beam cannons'.

[Uchuujinsan]

Again:

With the technology they had thirty years ago it's a mircale we won the great war.

[Kie99]

Again:

With the technology they had thirty years ago it's a mircale we won the great war.

Can easily be interpreted as 'With the technology the GTA and PVN (different organisations to the GTVA) had thirty years ago it's a miracle our species' won the Great War.

[Uchuujinsan]

Hm.. you have a point there, that's valid/possible at least, even though they talk about destroying the Rakshasa before.
On the other hand, this interpretation isn't possible anymore in the German version, if this happened due to a bad translation, or they talked with the devs... dunno.
Would be interesting to see if this ambiguity is in other language versions as well.

The "No shields, no flak guns, no beam cannons" however undoubtly doesn't refer to the shivans, I think we can agree on that

[Mongoose]

And that's why it's called RetCon.
FS1 was before FS2. It maeks sense that at that time [V] didn't want beamz on shivan ships. Yes, they weren't mean to have beamz..THEN.
But, FS2 is made later and [V] might have changed their minds. Thus, FS2 in essence overrides FS1..like the nodemap for example.

This is a very real possiblity.

What possible earthly reason would have to pull a stunt like that, though?  We all know about the nodemap changes and the few other minor differences, but this is something that would have been massively more substantial.  It'd be as though was saying, "Hey guys, remember the original game?  Everything that happened in it still happened...but how it happened was completely different, so your actual gameplay experience was meaningless.  Have a nice day!"  It'd be a real kick in the pants for anyone who enjoyed the original game, without any reasonable motivation for doing so.  And even putting motivation aside, given the amount of contact the community had with members of the development team in the past, don't you think something as huge as this would have come up at some point?

This is reminding me more and more of an argument going on in an adjacent thread.  I just can't see how one can take the fact that the new presence of beam cannons on Shivan ships is never explicitly mentioned in text and automatically extrapolate to all Shivan ships possessing beam cannons at the time of FS1.  The lack of a statement on a topic doesn't equate to the opposite being true.  And based on the lack of evidence suggesting otherwise, I have no reason to believe that what we saw in FS1 wasn't an accurate portrayal of the events of the Great War, weaponry included.  Like I said before, the new Shivan loadouts could have been addressed "offscreen" for all we know.

(I'm not even touching the pronoun argument, as that's just silly. )

[ChronoReverse]

Just out of curiosity, would a FS1-era Orion class destroyer beat a FS2-era Cain class cruiser?


Incidentally, here's the expanded context

The Shivans fought nothing but Great War relics.  We'll show them what firepower is all about.

With the technology they had 30 years ago, it's a miracle we won the Great War.

No shields, no flak guns, no beam cannons.

[Paladin327]

Just out of curiosity, would a FS1-era Orion class destroyer beat a FS2-era Cain class cruiser?


Incidentally, here's the expanded context

The Shivans fought nothing but Great War relics.  We'll show them what firepower is all about.

With the technology they had 30 years ago, it's a miracle we won the Great War.

No shields, no flak guns, no beam cannons.

Most likely, it would take a whole lot more damage, but an FS-1 orion is still a powerful warship, beams or no beams. that is if we dont count fighterw

[TrashMan]

What possible earthly reason would have to pull a stunt like that, though?  We all know about the nodemap changes and the few other minor differences, but this is something that would have been massively more substantial.  It'd be as though was saying, "Hey guys, remember the original game?  Everything that happened in it still happened...but how it happened was completely different, so your actual gameplay experience was meaningless.  Have a nice day!"  It'd be a real kick in the pants for anyone who enjoyed the original game, without any reasonable motivation for doing so.  And even putting motivation aside, given the amount of contact the community had with members of the development team in the past, don't you think something as huge as this would have come up at some point?

and that's what RetConn is all about. Things get retconned in real life. Why? Because someone thought it would be a good idea.

TI's teh usual "It allways happened thisd way explanation. and compared ot some other things that have been retconned in other games/books/movies/series that isn't a big deal.

[Mongoose]

No, it'd be a massive deal, because it would invalidate every single bit of gameplay in the original campaign.  Yes, things often get retconned (*glares at Lucas*), but it's generally for a good reason (*glares at Lucas again*)...like, for instance, stripping the "jump nodes" to Earth down to just the Delta Serpentis node to simplify matters.  I have enough faith in 's intelligence to assume that they wouldn't do something as massively stupid as running roughshod all over their initial game.  And if they had decided to do something like that, they would have told us, either in FS2 proper or through the many interactions they've had with the fan community over the years.  Without that direct statement, there's absolutely no concrete evidence to suggest that what we saw in FS1 wasn't the truth.

[ChronoReverse]

I haven't played FS1 in a while but was the Lilith able to stand up to an Orion (I know it easily crushed cruisers)?  A beam-equipped Lilith utterly destroys a FS1 Orion =(

[TrashMan]

I dunno. People have diofferent ideas on what a constituetes a good reason.

Maybe someone at [V] just said "We can now make really cool beam effects. Let's slap it on all shivan ships. Heck, let's say shivans allways had them!"

This argument can go either way. Unless someone actually asks a [V] dev I doubt we'll find out.

[Marcov]

I don't think Lucy's shields would really be invulnerable, but it would require a massive amount of FS firepower to damage it.

Based on the Engine, I wouldn't think even beams would hurt it quite a lot. The Harbringer deals 3200 damage, and an SRed deals 23,000 damage per pulse, which is equal to about 7 Harbringers.

If we put FS to reality, though, beams could have a chance. Let's take WWII tanks. Let's say a Sherman's 75 mm gun deals 100 damage. Let's take a Tiger's 88 mm cannon; I don't think the ratio would be fair; the Tiger's would probably deal 160 damage or so. The effect of penetration is quite important.
Meaning to say, although a BGreen's firepower is equal to 7 Harbs, it would do a Lucy type shield greater damage.

[MatthTheGeek]

This argument can go either way. Unless someone actually asks a [V] dev I doubt we'll find out.

Unless obvious or explicitly stated, that kind of thing cannot being considered as a retcon. All FS1 materials are canon, and nothing contradicts with FS2 canon, so there is no reason to retcon anything. It's like presumption of innocence : everything in the games IS canon unless explicitly stated otherwise, and not the contrary.

Nothing prevents you to make your own story based on the presence of beams during FS1, but it isn't canon, and it isn't a retcon either because a retcon must be accepted as such by either (canon retcon) or the community (fanon retcon), and based on strong evidences.