[Liberator]

Here's a thought.

The Luci was a prototype.  She was the first and only cap ship with shields because the cost and overt vulnerability in subspace made it impractical to put them on anything else.  She also could have been the first ship to mount beam cannons which during the Great War and any action she saw previous to that were shown to be incredibly effective against other capital ships.

We're all getting caught up in the idea that the Shivans are thousands of years in advance of us technologically because they were around to scrape the Ancients off of they're shoes.  However it's entirely possible that beam cannon technology is just as new to them as it is us.

[Mongoose]

We're all getting caught up in the idea that the Shivans are thousands of years in advance of us technologically because they were around to scrape the Ancients off of they're shoes.  However it's entirely possible that beam cannon technology is just as new to them as it is us.

I'd say that's probably somewhat less likely, actually.  The Vasudan scientists who were stranded in Altair and discovered the Ancient ruins mentioned finding evidence that they had been destroyed "by Shivan weapons."  Given what happened to Vasuda Prime, I've always taken that to mean that the damage was caused by beam weaponry, maybe even by the Lucifer itself.  I do think it's likely that the Lucifer fleet and Sathanas fleet represent two widely-separated eras of Shivan development, though.

[Spoon]

I do think it's likely that the Lucifer fleet and Sathanas fleet represent two widely-separated eras of Shivan development, though.

Indeed.
Kinda like you are playing master of orion, make a bunch of ships early on but never retire them. Then after 500 turns make new ones with all the tech you aquired in the mean time. The difference will be... noticable.

For all we know it's possible the Shivans never decommision ships.

[Droid803]

That, or the Shivans could just be out of contact with each other...

[Liberator]

Now that's a wild idea.

What if the Shivans from the Great War are not the same Shivans from the Second Great War?

We've hypothesized in the past that subspace nodes form at locations that would correspond to Lagrangian points between the stars connected.  Now taken as that alone, it makes no sense that there are nodes all over the damn place leading to every local star in the heavens.  But what if there's a relationship that we don't yet comprehend, something the Shivans do.  Something to do with how the knossos works.  Maybe the Sath Shivans made Capella go 'splodey to protect us from the Luci Shivans.  It sort of fits.  They didn't seem to really press the attack after the loss of the first Sath.  It wasn't until they saw us in the nebula again that they did exactly what they had to do to drive us back and make us evacuate Capella, all the time making sure we suffered enough losses to keep us hating/fearing the Luci Shivans.

They exploded Capella to obliterate any chance that the Luci Shivans would penetrate into the GTVA systems.

We were played.

[Killer Whale]

I don't think Lucy's shields would really be invulnerable, but it would require a massive amount of FS firepower to damage it.

Based on the Engine, I wouldn't think even beams would hurt it quite a lot. The Harbringer deals 3200 damage, and an SRed deals 23,000 damage per pulse, which is equal to about 7 Harbringers.

If we put FS to reality, though, beams could have a chance. Let's take WWII tanks. Let's say a Sherman's 75 mm gun deals 100 damage. Let's take a Tiger's 88 mm cannon; I don't think the ratio would be fair; the Tiger's would probably deal 160 damage or so. The effect of penetration is quite important.
Meaning to say, although a BGreen's firepower is equal to 7 Harbs, it would do a Lucy type shield greater damage.

Yeah. A rifle bullet releases about 3.9 million joules, an elastic band releases (estimate on speed at ~30m/s) 1.7 thousand joules. Yet I don't believe firing 2300 elastic bands will go through 1.3 cm steel

[NGTM-1R]

The problem is the Lucifer fleet wasn't really isolated; we know they had a source of supply somewhere beyond Ross 128 because the GTA spent a lot of time trying to disrupt the flow of supplies from it.

But it never sent out more than token reinforcements, and they never retreated towards it.

Somewhere beyond Ross 128 is a Shivan presence of some kind. And given that it never tried to help its brethern of the Lucifer fleet, or to even recon now GTVA-held systems...it's probably weak. Too weak to risk discovery.

[General Battuta]

Or busy. Or waiting on some contingency, as yet untriggered.

[NGTM-1R]

That doesn't really explain why they never retreated, though.

[deathfun]

Those Shivans could make planets explode with the snap of their fingers

It backfired and blew up their ship

End of story about those Shivans NGTM

[TrashMan]

Yeah. A rifle bullet releases about 3.9 million joules, an elastic band releases (estimate on speed at ~30m/s) 1.7 thousand joules. Yet I don't believe firing 2300 elastic bands will go through 1.3 cm steel

Where did you get those numbers?


EDIT: Anyone who thinks shivans are protecting us from something - you don't protect someone by shooting at him.

[headdie]

EDIT: Anyone who thinks shivans are protecting us from something - you don't protect someone by shooting at him.

now there is a fun one, what about the boost to our military research that the shivan encounters have given? mainly shields but it also broke us out of the reliance on "lasers" and bullets ML-16 / avenger also inspiring such weapons as the banshee, Prometheus and kayser.

it also had an effect on tactics, ship design and other areas of military thinking

edit: this might not have been intentional on the part of the shivans but the affect is undeniable

[TrashMan]

If they wanted to help us, they would have just given us the shields or any other tech.

Any SF that has aliens with such an agenda (we'll wage war against you so you can grow) is IMHO, bull****.

[headdie]

Shadows in Babylon 5

[General Battuta]

If they wanted to help us, they would have just given us the shields or any other tech.

Any SF that has aliens with such an agenda (we'll wage war against you so you can grow) is IMHO, bull****.

Why? It could be a species-wide application of the Robbers Cave principle. There's no question that outside threats unite otherwise disparate groups.

[Ziame]

No wai. Now tell me that Shivans love plushies and they hate war. They destroy, they kill, they massacre. We're just pawns in the Shivan game.

[General Battuta]

Actually, we have some suggestions from FS canon that the Shivans only attack species that are a danger to other species. In FS2, they went so far as to take an action which, in one interpretation, would have cut off node connections between the Shivans and the (cooperating) Terrans and Vasudans, as if the T/Vs were no longer of interest.

This isn't the One True Explanation, but it is well-substantiated.

[MatthTheGeek]

I think there are as many Shivans theories as FS gamers, so it's worthless to try convincing the others of a particular one joking of course.

Personally I think most theories (of course not the most frenzied ones (who said BBQ ?)) are interesting, as long as they aren't too far-fetched.

[TrashMan]

Why? It could be a species-wide application of the Robbers Cave principle. There's no question that outside threats unite otherwise disparate groups.

And there's no question there are better ways to educate and grow....ones involving less mass killings.


Not to mention that the principle involves putting your own soldiers/people in danger for the sake of some other species you don't even know. Fat chance of that happening. your troops would LOVE such a campaign:
"Ok troops, get to your craft and attack this planet here. Some of you will die and millions of their people will die too, but this action will serve to strengthen them. GO! and know you die for....erm...solmething?

[General Battuta]

And there's no question there are better ways to educate and grow....ones involving less mass killings.

Are there? How?

We have no idea that the Shivans have 'people', 'soldiers', 'troops', 'campaigns', or even individual cognition.

If a Shivan superorganism exists to place selective pressure on existing species to cooperate, then their actions make sense.