[TrashMan]

If that's the cacse, then the shivan's creators were insane or terribly stupid.

And yes, there are better ways. *shocked*

[Liberator]

Or they understand psychology on a species level very well. 

EVERYTHING the GTVA had to work with during the second war(including the Alliance) was a direct result of they're experiences in the Great War.  The second incursion, while accidental, was no doubt a test.  To see the limits of our technology and will, to see how far we'd go to protect ourselves.  They saw that we'll chase white elephants, in the form of the Colossus, as well as intentionally destroy pathways with which we could strike back against our enemies.

Remember, :V: has said that there the Shivans are a symptom of something greater going on out in the universe.  If there's something worse than the Shivans out there, it would make sense that they would be doing something to cultivate the help they need "fast".  If there is something bigger out there(and there almost always is) then it possible the Shivans have foreseen a time when they will no longer be able to resist they're true enemy, so they studied races that were beginning to show promise in ways that would be able to resist the "Great Enemy" after they were gone, with the appropriate prodding.

I mean if you think about it the discovery of subspace tracking was a little too convenient.

[General Battuta]

If that's the cacse, then the shivan's creators were insane or terribly stupid.

Why?

And yes, there are better ways. *shocked*

What? We haven't managed it as a species. We don't have a better way.

[Droid803]

If that's the cacse, then the shivan's creators were insane or terribly stupid.

And yes, there are better ways. *shocked*

Maybe they're just sadistic?

[TrashMan]

What? We haven't managed it as a species. We don't have a better way.

Because technology doesn't advance outside of warfare? Even without an advancedspecies sharing your knowledge with you?

Or is it because of al lthe lives and infrastructure lost during a war that could be used? Destroying research stations with scientists is a sure-fire way to help us grow! Yeah right..

[General Battuta]

We were already at war with the Vasudans. The Shivans ended the war. We know, canonically, that the Ancients believed the Shivans were the 'revenge of an angry cosmos' due to their annihilation of other races.

If a campaign wanted to use this interpretation there's plenty of evidence for it.

In any case, this has nothing to do with technology and everything to do with psychology.

[headdie]

Or is it because of al lthe lives and infrastructure lost during a war that could be used? Destroying research stations with scientists is a sure-fire way to help us grow! Yeah right..

what it does is force us to examine our defense priorities and how we deploy scientific research personnel and other civilians.

Do we improve the armour and weapons on new designs? this will increase the cost of new ships entering civilian and military service both in terms of time and materials

Do we improve weapons and armour on existing ships? as well as diverting construction and material resources from creating new ships but it removes them from service until the refit is finished

Do we deploy additional resources to the ship's defense e.g. sentry guns, fighters, cruisers etc, where do we get those defenses from to we increase production (noting for both the T-V and NTF wars production / purchasing of war material will be running close to capacity anyway)  if we cant build it we need to take it off of something else like defense elsewhere or reducing offensive capacity.

If we decide to maintain the current situation then it helps in that we have decided to accept the loss

If we make the decision to change something then it has helped us improve our military deployment

Also commanders would be looking at how this event happened and what steps away from the site of battle could have been done to prevent it or a similar tragedy in the future

[TrashMan]

In any case, this has nothing to do with technology and everything to do with psychology.

It has alos everything to do with commons sense, and there's none of in such a theory.

IF oyu want a strong ally you share technology, foster good relations, train and trade.By your logic, if USA wanted a strong ally in England, they should have declared war and dropped a nuke on London. Cause clarly that's hte most sensible way to go about growth and building up strength.

Protecting us? The shivans were nuking GTVA homeworlds! The cultural, political, econommical and industiral centers. They galsed vasudan Prime and they were going to glass Earth too. How is that protecting in ANY sense of the word?

[General Battuta]

I don't think you're grasping it.

In this theory, the Shivans are not out there to build strong allies. Not at all.

They are out there to punish species that commit xenocide against other species. They either annihilate the species in question, or they provide an incentive for the species to stop killing its neighbors and work together.

It's a Robber's Cave phenomenon. The best way to get two groups to stop hating each other is to supply an external goal or threat.

The Shivans help create an environment in which cooperation, rather than xenocide and monoculture, is a good survival strategy.

[Liberator]

Actually, the theory bears a striking resemblance to the actual ending of Watchmen.

Spoiler:

Where Veidt teleports a genetically engineered monster that kills everyone in NYC.  Millions of people dead from an unknown, seemingly powerful aggressor unites the world in a way that's never been seen before, which averts the oncoming nuclear war.

Yeah, it would been all nice and loveydovey for the Shivans to show up and say "Hey Guys!  We've been fighting "The Great Enemy" for uncounted ages and we're losing.  So we need to get you guys up to speed so we can phase you guys in to our forces before we're gone."

What you would have ended up with is either the Terrans or the Vasudans not being as involved as they should be or not involved at all.  Because you would have bad feelings left from the previous war that wouldn't be put away in the face of a vastly more powerful threat.

[General Battuta]

I concur.

[TrashMan]

So making a big show of force and saying "you kids play nice or we'll exterminate all of you." (or inventing some other big threat) wouldn't do the trick?
Killing billions, probably more than the whole T-V war is your solution?

[General Battuta]

It's not 'my solution' or 'my theory' or anything of the sort. It's just one reading of the text.

And you're still not getting it: the Shivans are not there to make friends or form alliances. They are there to kill species that are a threat to other species. If the species in question start working together, then the Shivans lose interest in them.

There is no reason the Shivans should care about the number of lives lost.

[headdie]

i know it looks like i'm pro shivan helping us in my posts but tbh i believe that the shivans are just a nasty invented to make a story and that's as far as the thinking when from prospective.

now what makes something a great threat? i dont have a definitive answer on that but i know that the senseless slaughter of millions or more innocent civilians is a very good motivator to think in those terms

[Scotty]

If that was the extent of :V:s thinking, we wouldn't have had those Ancient monologue cutscenes.

[NGTM-1R]

If that was the extent of :V:s thinking, we wouldn't have had those Ancient monologue cutscenes.

But the Ancients don't really know a damn thing about Shivan motives either. Canon's all just shots in the dark, and so are we.

[Scotty]

No one in canon actually heard those.  Only the person playing did.  As such, I, personally, think it would be stupid to put something so firmly into canon, with an entire set of cutscenes devoted to it, if it were only one such shot in the dark.

While we're at it, is it even possible to have canon be a shot in the dark?

[General Battuta]

If it's canonical speculation about Shivan motivations, then yeah, sure.

Besides, for all we know (as speculated in BP) Alpha 1 actually received visions of some kind.

[Bobboau]

I always thought the monologues were part of the ancient database they recovered.

[Paladin327]

I always thought the monologues were part of the ancient database they recovered.

yeah, that makes sence. if the monologues were a dream, do you think command would take a pilot, lets say a lieutenant, seriously if he said, "they cant use their shields in subspace and they can be tracked too!"

An on the "shivans arent the worse threat out there" discussion. my beleif as to why the shivans attacked is that on their own, the GTA and PVN were weak, relativly speaking. after 14 years of war, both sides have taken a beating. oyu t of nowhere, a third faction come and blows both of them away, and the terrans and vasudans team up and cooperate against a common enemy, bringing about weapons like the interceptor (Vasudan propulsion and a terran warhead) and the ulysses.they also evelop new weapons. but the shivans see the new gtva as still weak, squabling durring the rebellion, so the shivans attack again, and specutivly, after the second incursion, new weapons and tech are bornso that to a point, the GTVA has a hope against this unknown enemy. it was most likely to come about in fs3, so maybe

This is similar to theories that in star wars, Grand Admiral Thrawn waged war on the new republic to strengthen their defences for an unknown threat from afar, which turned out to be the vong.