[Mobius]

Retcon and retconning

The community overuses a lot of terms like "inconsistency" but, at this point, I guess it's the case to introduce retconning in FreeSpace.

That'd prevent stuff like new theories like "Why FS1's Shivans didn't have any beam cannons?". The answer is simple, simply wanted to add beam cannons to improve the sequel and added them. This is a typical retcon.

The "jump points from Sol" matter would deserve a similar treatment and the same thing can be done with many other aspects of the FreeSpace Universe.

Speaking under an FS Wiki point of view, a page in which all retconned things are listed would be ideal. Each entry will have a link to a given Wiki page for better comprehension. What do you think?

[General Battuta]

'Introduce retconning in Freespace'? Clarify please?

Anyway, it's a matter of opinion whether or not there were any retcons between Freespace 1 and Freespace 2. I personally favor that idea, but there are plenty of theories that propose explanations for the differential, and there's no reason to discard them.

ST:R suggested that Sol had phasing or periodic jump nodes, for instance. Did you play it?

[Snail]

I think retconning is a sign of terrible plot development.

If you need to retcon something, you have not thought it through.

[Mobius]

'Introduce retconning in Freespace'? Clarify please?

Anyway, it's a matter of opinion whether or not there were any retcons between Freespace 1 and Freespace 2. I personally favor that idea, but there are plenty of theories that propose explanations for the differential, and there's no reason to discard them.

ST:R suggested that Sol had phasing or periodic jump nodes, for instance. Did you play it?

The addition of beam cannons, just to give an example, looks like an obvious retcon to me.

I linked that Wikipedia page to show what retconning is about. By "introducing retconning in FS" I mean "starting to treat inconsistencies in a different way".

In any case, the main intent is to prevent people from coming out with theories pretending to explain retconning. I read weird stuff about Shivan beams in FS1, just to give another example, and that kind of stuff is nearly widely accepted as fanon. That's not a good move, IMO.

I think retconning is a sign of terrible plot development.

If you need to retcon something, you have not thought it through.

Your point? For the greater good decided to add more features in FS2. That included beam cannons, better shaped spacecraft&warships and so on.

What's wrong in accepting retcon?

[General Battuta]

In any case, the main intent is to prevent people from coming out with theories pretending to explain retconning. I read weird stuff about Shivan beams in FS1, just to give another example, and that kind of stuff is nearly widely accepted as fanon. That's not a good move, IMO.

I don't see any reason to discourage such theories. As you've often said, things should be explained in-universe as well as out-of-universe.

[Mobius]

No, what I usually say is to make differences between ingame experiences and Universe-related ones. That has nothing to do with retconning.

[General Battuta]

No, what I usually say is to make differences between ingame experiences and Universe-related ones. That has nothing to do with retconning.

So you want everyone to stop coming up with theories?

I mean, we all know it's a retcon. Why is this big news, and why does it have to be anything official?

[Goober5000]

ST:R suggested that Sol had phasing or periodic jump nodes, for instance. Did you play it?

It's not strictly ST:R.  Galemp and I had been toying around with a similar idea for a while, but it was Mad Bomber in this thread who really crystallized the concept.

[Mobius]

So you want everyone to stop coming up with theories?

No...

Theories are welcome...it's the tendence in considering them fanon which may be a problem. Accepting retconning is, IMO, the most appropriate way to accept radical changes.

I mean, we all know it's a retcon. Why is this big news, and why does it have to be anything official?

In can ensure you that not everyone here knows what a retcon is.

As for the "officiality", my idea is to have a list of retconned concepts because, IMO, there's a bad use of terms like "inconsistency".

Many community members don't know how to treat inconsistencies. They go for the "Uhm, I prefer the FS1 way so my FS2 campaign will use that concept".

[Narvi]

Freespace has a reasonable continuity. There are plenty of justifications for each new thing.

The Lucifer fleet could simply have been a detached and primitive remnant of the main Shivan fleet, separated by the shifting of jump nodes. The shield system it uses also appears to be extremely vulnerable to beam weaponry, explaining why no other Shivan vessels have it; they probably prefer thicker hull armor in its stead.

(Incidentally fighters would still retain shields because fighters aren't giant blocks easily targetted by unstoppable beam weapons.)

And as for the Sol sole jumpnode thing; it's been what, thirty years? Do you really think any contemporary person would be completely accurate about it? How accurate are you about the details of the Vietnam War? What do you think is more likely; 1) "Because of the destruction of the Lucifer within the Delta Serpentis node, all contact with Sol was lost", or 2) "Because of the destruction of the Lucifer within, the Delta Serpentis jump node to Sol as well as, for some reason the two other jump nodes connected to Sol, collapsed".

It's not like Volition forgot about the other two nodes. "All the jump nodes to Sol have been destroyed."

[Mobius]

The Lucifer fleet could simply have been a detached and primitive remnant of the main Shivan fleet, separated by the shifting of jump nodes. The shield system it uses also appears to be extremely vulnerable to beam weaponry, explaining why no other Shivan vessels have it; they probably prefer thicker hull armor in its stead.

(Incidentally fighters would still retain shields because fighters aren't giant blocks easily targetted by unstoppable beam weapons.)

That's EXACTLY what I was refering to earlier. That theory makes no sense but, yet still, is widely accepted. I read stuff like "The Shivan fleet didn't have beams because they would compromise intersystem jumps" while the most credible thing is to admit that the Shivans used volatile nodes, probably undetected/ignored by Terrans and Vasudans during the T-V War.

And as for the Sol sole jumpnode thing; it's been what, thirty years? Do you really think any contemporary person would be completely accurate about it? How accurate are you about the details of the Vietnam War? What do you think is more likely; 1) "Because of the destruction of the Lucifer within the Delta Serpentis node, all contact with Sol was lost", or 2) "Because of the destruction of the Lucifer within, the Delta Serpentis jump node to Sol as well as, for some reason the two other jump nodes connected to Sol, collapsed".

It's not like Volition forgot about the other two nodes. "All the jump nodes to Sol have been destroyed."

Again, no. Your statements are based on FS1 and not on FS2. That's why you completely miss the retcon.

Tell me, why did Petrarch mention the Delta Serpentis-Sol jump node, only, when he talked about the eventual construction of a Terran Knossos? Why doesn't he mention the other jump nodes? The answer is simple: that whole matter was retconned.

[Snail]

So you're saying that FS1 is non-canon now?

[Mobius]

FS1 is canon. Retconned stuff isn't.

[Narvi]

The Lucifer fleet could simply have been a detached and primitive remnant of the main Shivan fleet, separated by the shifting of jump nodes. The shield system it uses also appears to be extremely vulnerable to beam weaponry, explaining why no other Shivan vessels have it; they probably prefer thicker hull armor in its stead.

(Incidentally fighters would still retain shields because fighters aren't giant blocks easily targetted by unstoppable beam weapons.)

That's EXACTLY what I was refering to earlier. That theory makes no sense but, yet still, is widely accepted. I read stuff like "The Shivan fleet didn't have beams because they would compromise intersystem jumps" while the most credible thing is to admit that the Shivans used volatile nodes, probably undetected/ignored by Terrans and Vasudans during the T-V War.

How does it not make any sense, exactly?

And the Lucifer fleet couldn't have had any contact with the core Shivan forces. Otherwise questions like 'where were the rest of them after the Lucifer went boom' come up.

Of course, you could always say that the node they came through from completely destabilized, but that would suffer from the problem of 'did the Shivans get more advanced in fifty years or what'?

And as for the Sol sole jumpnode thing; it's been what, thirty years? Do you really think any contemporary person would be completely accurate about it? How accurate are you about the details of the Vietnam War? What do you think is more likely; 1) "Because of the destruction of the Lucifer within the Delta Serpentis node, all contact with Sol was lost", or 2) "Because of the destruction of the Lucifer within, the Delta Serpentis jump node to Sol as well as, for some reason the two other jump nodes connected to Sol, collapsed".

It's not like Volition forgot about the other two nodes. "All the jump nodes to Sol have been destroyed."

Again, no. Your statements are based on FS1 and not on FS2. That's why you completely miss the retcon.

Tell me, why did Petrarch mention the Delta Serpentis-Sol jump node, only, when he talked about the eventual construction of a Terran Knossos? Why doesn't he mention the other jump nodes? The answer is simple: that whole matter was retconned.

Hah, easy, because the Knossos portal is a massive undertaking and the Delta Serpentis node is the closest to the GTVA core systems, so the organization would be simple. You missed my point that people would mainly remember the Delta Serpentis node as the node which actually went KABLOOEY.

For storytelling reasons, the other nodes are insignificant and don't need to be mentioned. That doesn't mean they were never actually there. Now, if there was an specific in-game statement  saying that "the only subspace node to Earth" was destroyed, that would be a retcon.

[Mobius]

How does it not make any sense, exactly?

And the Lucifer fleet couldn't have had any contact with the core Shivan forces. Otherwise questions like 'where were the rest of them after the Lucifer went boom' come up.

Of course, you could always say that the node they came through from completely destabilized, but that would suffer from the problem of 'did the Shivans get more advanced in fifty years or what'?

The worst thing about the matter is that people pretend to consider it fanon while it isn't. Fanon has to be accepted by the community as a whole but I'm afraid this theory doesn't work.

1) Had the Shivans sortied more units the game would have never come to a conclusion. The newly formed TV Alliance wouldn't have been able to fight Shivan reinforcements.

In any case, the "Shivan task force" theory, although acceptable, has no significance in explaining why the Shivans didn't have beams in FS1.

When the GTVA faced the Shivans in FS2 no one said: "Hey, those guys now have beams like the ones we developed in the past years! Isn't it a bit strange?". Again, the answer is simple: retcon.

Hah, easy, because the Knossos portal is a massive undertaking and the Delta Serpentis node is the closest to the GTVA core systems, so the organization would be simple. You missed my point that people would mainly remember the Delta Serpentis node as the node which actually went KABLOOEY.

For storytelling reasons, the other nodes are insignificant and don't need to be mentioned. That doesn't mean they were never actually there. Now, if there was an specific in-game statement  saying that "the only subspace node to Earth" was destroyed, that would be a retcon.

You keep missing the point. The phrase you mentioned comes from the same old source, FreeSpace 1. It proves nothing because FS2 came later.

Also, Deneb and Beta Aquilae weren't remote/unimportant systems. Deneb was an important system attacked by the NTF and Beta Aquilae is the place where the BETAC was signed.

Node Inconsistencies (FreeSpace Wiki page)

There are a number of jump node connections that are used in FreeSpace but are not illustrated on the Official Volition Node Map. They are listed below, along with their references and how valid you should consider them. Volition says that the node map should overrule other references.

had a lot of confusion even when FS1 got released and then decided to clear everything by claiming that the official nodemap is the only one that counts. Let me say something about the matter:

1) In the official nodemap ( dixit) there's only one jump node from Sol, and it leads to Delta Serpentis;

2) That statement by it is clearly proved that they retconned the map...at this point I don't understand why the same principle shouldn't be applied to FS2;

[Snail]

Quote me the exact statement that retcons FS1.

[Narvi]

How does it not make any sense, exactly?

And the Lucifer fleet couldn't have had any contact with the core Shivan forces. Otherwise questions like 'where were the rest of them after the Lucifer went boom' come up.

Of course, you could always say that the node they came through from completely destabilized, but that would suffer from the problem of 'did the Shivans get more advanced in fifty years or what'?

The worst thing about the matter is that people pretend to consider it fanon while it isn't. Fanon has to be accepted by the community as a whole but I'm afraid this theory doesn't work.

1) Had the Shivans sortied more units the game would have never come to a conclusion. The newly formed TV Alliance wouldn't have been able to fight Shivan reinforcements.

That's not actually a reason. That's more why it was done for the sake of the story. Next you'll say that the reason why the Shivans are so numerous in the second game isn't because they've been expanding in space for millenia, but because Volition needed an implacable enemy for future sequels.

How does it not make any sense, exactly?

And the Lucifer fleet couldn't have had any contact with the core Shivan forces. Otherwise questions like 'where were the rest of them after the Lucifer went boom' come up.

Of course, you could always say that the node they came through from completely destabilized, but that would suffer from the problem of 'did the Shivans get more advanced in fifty years or what'?

The worst thing about the matter is that people pretend to consider it fanon while it isn't. Fanon has to be accepted by the community as a whole but I'm afraid this theory doesn't work.

1) Had the Shivans sortied more units the game would have never come to a conclusion. The newly formed TV Alliance wouldn't have been able to fight Shivan reinforcements.

In any case, the "Shivan task force" theory, although acceptable, has no significance in explaining why the Shivans didn't have beams in FS1.

When the GTVA faced the Shivans in FS2 no one said: "Hey, those guys now have beams like the ones we developed in the past years! Isn't it a bit strange?". Again, the answer is simple: retcon.

They don't have a discussion on why the Lucifer fleet was so comparatively small either. That doesn't mean discussions weren't had.

Anyway, why on earth would they find it strange? The Shivans were the ones who developed beam technology in the first place! Of course people won't find it odd that they've upgraded since then, especially since the GTVA has done so successfully.

Hah, easy, because the Knossos portal is a massive undertaking and the Delta Serpentis node is the closest to the GTVA core systems, so the organization would be simple. You missed my point that people would mainly remember the Delta Serpentis node as the node which actually went KABLOOEY.

For storytelling reasons, the other nodes are insignificant and don't need to be mentioned. That doesn't mean they were never actually there. Now, if there was an specific in-game statement  saying that "the only subspace node to Earth" was destroyed, that would be a retcon.

You keep missing the point. The phrase you mentioned comes from the same old source, FreeSpace 1. It proves nothing because FS2 came later.

Also, Deneb and Beta Aquilae weren't remote/unimportant systems. Deneb was an important system attacked by the NTF and Beta Aquilae is the place where the BETAC was signed.

Node Inconsistencies (FreeSpace Wiki page)

There are a number of jump node connections that are used in FreeSpace but are not illustrated on the Official Volition Node Map. They are listed below, along with their references and how valid you should consider them. Volition says that the node map should overrule other references.

had a lot of confusion even when FS1 got released and then decided to clear everything by claiming that the official nodemap is the only one that counts. Let me say something about the matter:

1) In the official nodemap ( dixit) there's only one jump node from Sol, and it leads to Delta Serpentis;

2) That statement by it is clearly proved that they retconned the map...at this point I don't understand why the same principle shouldn't be applied to FS2;

Hmmm, alright then, I'll concede that they retconned it in this matter. Not on the other though.

[Mobius]

Quote me the exact statement that retcons FS1.

That seems a silly posts. You're somewhat implying that I hate FS1 or something while what I'm willing to do has nothing to do with it.

That's not actually a reason. That's more why it was done for the sake of the story. Next you'll say that the reason why the Shivans are so numerous in the second game isn't because they've been expanding in space for millenia, but because Volition needed an implacable enemy for future sequels.

Wrong...

They don't have a discussion on why the Lucifer fleet was so comparatively small either. That doesn't mean discussions weren't had.

Anyway, why on earth would they find it strange? The Shivans were the ones who developed beam technology in the first place! Of course people won't find it odd that they've upgraded since then, especially since the GTVA has done so successfully.

May I know why GTVA units faced the Behemoth and the Goliath without mentioning their beam weapons? They should have been surprised/worried had they kept thinking that the Shivans didn't have beam cannons.

simply retconned Shivan weapons and gave them beams to improve the game. It's not that hard to accept, dude.

Hmmm, alright then, I'll concede that they retconned it in this matter. Not on the other though.

The other matter is more conceivable.

[General Battuta]

Whoaaaakay, Mobius. Slow down, take a few breaths.

People can come up with whatever theories they like to explain these inconsistencies. And, for now, that's what they are: inconsistencies.

Because at no point in FS2 did anyone actually come out and say 'the Shivans have always had beams, they had them back in the Great War'. Nor did anyone say 'There was only ever one jump node to Sol.' As Snail said, it's hard to find a single statement that retcons FS1.

Inconsistencies were ignored or glossed over, but no one came out and retroactively changed anything. So were there any actual retcons? Arguable, I guess.

If Volition had made a point of retconning in the story, we'd know, because it would be glaringly obvious: 'The Shivans have always had beams.' As it is now, you can read it either way.

Maybe those pilots attacking the Behemoth weren't surprised because the Shivans have always had beams - a retcon. Maybe it was some other reason.

But there's just no reason to force this idea down the community's collective throat. Why not let people do their thing? There is no Freespace fanon, and there's no need to create some crazy set of rules a la Lucasfilm Licensing.

Lastly, what do you mean retcons aren't canon? By definition they supersede and replace existing canon. They are certainly canon.

[Narvi]

That's not actually a reason. That's more why it was done for the sake of the story. Next you'll say that the reason why the Shivans are so numerous in the second game isn't because they've been expanding in space for millenia, but because Volition needed an implacable enemy for future sequels.

Wrong...

They don't have a discussion on why the Lucifer fleet was so comparatively small either. That doesn't mean discussions weren't had.

Anyway, why on earth would they find it strange? The Shivans were the ones who developed beam technology in the first place! Of course people won't find it odd that they've upgraded since then, especially since the GTVA has done so successfully.

May I know why GTVA units faced the Behemoth and the Goliath without mentioning their beam weapons? They should have been surprised/worried had they kept thinking that the Shivans didn't have beam cannons.

simply retconned Shivan weapons and gave them beams to improve the game. It's not that hard to accept, dude.[/mobius]

Because the Behemoth had earlier destroyed a GTVA cruiser group with its beam cannons. You know, the surprise attack which actually kicked off the Second Shivan Encounter? It wasn't actually a surprise at that point.