Author Topic: Speed and WWII Discussion (split from NuY-wing thread)  (Read 14965 times)

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OK, we can write-off the speed explanation as a "cruise mode." I don't think jets dogfight at supersonic speeds, but they use all they've got to get within range of the target. The stress put on a craft in complex maneuvers at those speeds would probably tear an aircraft to pieces. Am I right?

Yeah, a fully armored version would be awesome, and useful cosmetic bonus for pre-Rebellion missions.

 

Offline CaptJosh

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Someone was talking about WWII fightercraft only going about 440mph tops. You forgot something. The P-38 could get up to nearly breaking the sound barrier in an extended dive. That's why it had an air brake. So you could slow down enough to control the aircraft again. Because at those speeds it suffered from the old problem of so much air pressure on the control surfaces that a human couldn't exert enough pressure to make them respond. Not to mention the shockwave breaking lift and making the plane do what was called a "near mach tuck". The P-38J lightening was actually equipped with spring assisted air brakes to allow it to slow down and let the pilot regain control.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Someone was talking about WWII fightercraft only going about 440mph tops. You forgot something. The P-38 could get up to nearly breaking the sound barrier in an extended dive. That's why it had an air brake. So you could slow down enough to control the aircraft again. Because at those speeds it suffered from the old problem of so much air pressure on the control surfaces that a human couldn't exert enough pressure to make them respond. Not to mention the shockwave breaking lift and making the plane do what was called a "near mach tuck". The P-38J lightening was actually equipped with spring assisted air brakes to allow it to slow down and let the pilot regain control.

Yes, that's why I was talking about maximum level flight airspeed as well as the ideal cornering velocity of those planes (the speed at which the rate of turn is at it's greatest) which are far more relevant speeds to know when you try and figure out how fast these planes typically were going.

Of course sustained dives could give a massive boost in airspeed for especially late war aircraft. Heck, there are unsubstantiated reports of Messerschmitt Bf-109's (amongst others) breaking sound barrier in prolonged dive, but obviously the planes were not made for these velocities - including the P-38 Lightning. For most planes, flutter started to occur way before the plane is even close to breaking mach 1.0, and in most cases it would just rip the control surfaces and wing plating off, and then the pilot would be truly and utterly frakked without an ejection seat... P-38 didn't really suffer from flutter (although the late versions were fitted with counterweights on the control surfaces, especially elevator) but other high speed issues like compressibility lockups which you mentioned, and buffeting.

By the way I don't think the P-38 ever had air brakes as such. The early versions suffered from compressibility lockups on elevator at high speeds, making it very difficult to get out of dives past certain speed, and the first attempt to fix it involved the mentioned spring-loaded servos that were triggered when control forces went beyond certain amount, sort of like power steering on the elevator. Turned out the issue was not really that, it was that the compressibility at high speeds caused the center of lift to move backwards (wings lost their lift), which of course meant that there was no way the elevator could get the nose up since the wings weren't producing enough lift and the elevator just couldn't get the angle of attack high enough at this flight condition. This caused undue stresses to the elevator which could simply destroy the tail structure even if you managed to move the elevator itself, which is pretty much what happened to the first test aircraft employed with this "power elevator".

Eventually they solved the center of lift issue with dive flaps, not air brakes. They were devices that simply changed the wing's geometry so that it wouldn't lose the lift at high speeds. They didn't act as air brakes - that would have been counterproductive considering that most of the aerodynamic developement on P-38 was concentrated on getting more speed out of it in a controllable manner. Reducing the speed would've been simple, but tactically futile as the German FW-190's and even Messerschmitts could simply turn their tail and run from them - which they pretty much did until the dive flaps started to be used.

Unfortunately, a bunch of dive flaps en route to England were shot down an an IFF mishap involving the transport plane and an RAF fighter aircraft, so on European theatre the P-38's were delayed from receiving that particular upgrade.


Also, to bring the post to thread context: The P-38 has always sort of felt somehow similar to the Y-Wing to me (or vice versa). I don't know if it's the two engine nacelles or the role of the ship... although in TG's X-Wing trilogy, the Y-Wing is more like Ju-87 than any sort of fighter aircraft. :blah:

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Offline General Battuta

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OK, we can write-off the speed explanation as a "cruise mode." I don't think jets dogfight at supersonic speeds, but they use all they've got to get within range of the target. The stress put on a craft in complex maneuvers at those speeds would probably tear an aircraft to pieces. Am I right?

Yeah, a fully armored version would be awesome, and useful cosmetic bonus for pre-Rebellion missions.

Not quite. Jets use full afterburners in dogfights all the time. You need the thrust (though it burns through fuel really fast.)

However, the extremely rapid, high-angle-of-attack maneuvering and turning inherent in a furball means that the craft really never get up much speed. Altitude buys you speed, speed is life, and you're going to have to spend that speed in order to get out of sticky situations and to get to corner velocity.

 

Offline CountBuggula

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OK, we can write-off the speed explanation as a "cruise mode." I don't think jets dogfight at supersonic speeds, but they use all they've got to get within range of the target. The stress put on a craft in complex maneuvers at those speeds would probably tear an aircraft to pieces. Am I right?

Yeah, a fully armored version would be awesome, and useful cosmetic bonus for pre-Rebellion missions.

Not quite. Jets use full afterburners in dogfights all the time. You need the thrust (though it burns through fuel really fast.)

However, the extremely rapid, high-angle-of-attack maneuvering and turning inherent in a furball means that the craft really never get up much speed. Altitude buys you speed, speed is life, and you're going to have to spend that speed in order to get out of sticky situations and to get to corner velocity.

Umm...full afterburners =/= supersonic speeds.  Yes they'll use the full thrust available to them during a dogfight, but just because they're using that much thrust doesn't at all mean they're zooming around supersonic the whole time.  It's a complicated dance of accelerations, decelerations, turns, climbs, dives, etc.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Speed and WWII Discussion (split from NuY-wing thread)
That was exactly my point. Which means a special 'cruise mode' is not a great explanation for differing in-and-out of combat speeds, since the same thrust is being used in both modes, it's just being bled off by maneuvering in combat.

Did you read the second paragraph of my post? It's precisely what you said in your post.

 

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Re: Speed and WWII Discussion (split from NuY-wing thread)
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Offline CountBuggula

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Re: Speed and WWII Discussion (split from NuY-wing thread)
That was exactly my point. Which means a special 'cruise mode' is not a great explanation for differing in-and-out of combat speeds, since the same thrust is being used in both modes, it's just being bled off by maneuvering in combat.

Did you read the second paragraph of my post? It's precisely what you said in your post.

Hmm.  You're right.  I blame high stress due to being laid off and lack of sleep.  Carry on.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Speed and WWII Discussion (split from NuY-wing thread)
No problem, mate. Sorry if I seemed snappy.

 

Offline TomShak

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Re: Speed and WWII Discussion (split from NuY-wing thread)
I think knowing how fast things went in the films is useful but I think that what makes a good film doesn't necessarily make a good computer game.

The speed (and acceleration) of things in films tends to be based on what "looks cool" rather than conforming to any hard metrics. This works well in a film because it's all about creating the right visual effect. However, the result is that films don't have to follow any rules. The maximum acceleration at one point in the sequence can be completely different to another point, and as long as it looks good it doesn't matter.

However, computer games are quite different, they have to have a consistent set of rules to play by. Players are also extremely good at exploiting the rules of a game to their advantage, inventing tactics that best exploit the rules of the game. The result is that you can base the rules of the game exactly on the rules of the films, yet the combat in the game will look nothing like it does in the film.

I once played a Star Trek mod that had replicated impulse power exactly, including rates of acceleration and maximum velocity. It was a terrible game. The reason was that battles became high speed slashing runs. Players would accelerate away at ultra high speed, then turn round towards their targets. When they'd closed into firing range  they would perform a massive deceleration and then dump all their weapons on the enemy (typically a large barrage of torpedoes). Then they'd accelerate off to disappear at high speed. Rinse and repeat until the enemy was dead.

This tactic was incredibly effective, as the target had almost no time to react. It was also totally allowed given the (massive) accelerations and maximum speeds of impulse power. However, it looked absolutely nothing like combat in the Star Trek films at all. It also got rather boring to play rather quickly.

So personally I think when making a game you need to come up with rules that "play good", just as films try to "look good". If you want to achieve a particular style of combat (for example the combat seen in the films) then you need to tune your rules to achieve that kind of combat. The speed and acceleration you need to achieve this may be wildly different than what you can observe in the films.

I also think getting combat to look exactly like it does in the films may be impossible. A real human pilot flying according to the rules that are apparent in the Star Wars films would probably have used very different tactics. Real people are incredibly good at exploiting the rules of the game to their advantage. Pilots in films however are flying based on what looks cool in a movie, not based on what was actually a good tactic. In other words the combat in the films may well not look like any real combat ever would. It's likely the best that's achievable in a game is having combat that is "kind of similar" to what we see in the films.





 

Offline brandx0

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Re: Speed and WWII Discussion (split from NuY-wing thread)
Also understand that our goal is not to replicate statistics as seen in the movies, but rather, the feel itself.  We've already measured things such as acceleration, speed and maneuverability and then tweaked them for the purposes of gameplay.  These all contribute to the feel in their own way, but don't make a game by itself.  We'd be silly if we wanted to, say, go by their canon statistics which state that each fighter can accelerate several thousand Gs at a time. 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is simply this:

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Offline zookeeper

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Re: Speed and WWII Discussion (split from NuY-wing thread)
So personally I think when making a game you need to come up with rules that "play good", just as films try to "look good". If you want to achieve a particular style of combat (for example the combat seen in the films) then you need to tune your rules to achieve that kind of combat. The speed and acceleration you need to achieve this may be wildly different than what you can observe in the films.

I also think getting combat to look exactly like it does in the films may be impossible. A real human pilot flying according to the rules that are apparent in the Star Wars films would probably have used very different tactics. Real people are incredibly good at exploiting the rules of the game to their advantage. Pilots in films however are flying based on what looks cool in a movie, not based on what was actually a good tactic. In other words the combat in the films may well not look like any real combat ever would. It's likely the best that's achievable in a game is having combat that is "kind of similar" to what we see in the films.
Yes, that's all true. I don't think anyone really disagrees with that either, people just like different approaches towards more or less the same goal.

Frankly, as someone who plays with what dogfighting test missions we have usually several times every day, I think what we have now is pretty darn good in the "looks and feels like in the films" respect. There's several little details and missing features which still get in the way a bit, but the only bigger problem perhaps in need of a clever solution is the circling fights. They don't fly in circles in SW (with the exception of the falcon and those two interceptors ;)), but of course that's what happens all the time in-game. However, it's not necessarily something that would need to be fixed by tweaking the flight mechanics themselves; there should be other ways to dissuade a pilot from trying to shrug someone off their tail by simply doing steep turns and circles.

For example, currently in FotG you can fly as slow as you like, but it's usually suicide if there's a chance that someone could start shooting at you. So that's an incredibly simple and natural gameplay solution (whether intentional or not) to the problem of things "not looking like in the films" as far as speed is concerned. No one wants to get killed so they tend to keep their speed high just like in the films. So, my point is that making things look and feel like in the films while having interesting gameplay is not just about limiting what each ship can do, it's just as much about encouraging the "right" kind of actions and discouraging the "wrong" kind of actions, even if the player could do anything they like. In your Star Trek mod example, I don't see the problem as being the fact that impulse power was replicated exactly, but instead the fact that they didn't make sure that it could not be abused, which they could have done by putting in some extra rules which would have prevented it and which wouldn't have (seriously) contradicted canon either.

So what I'm trying to say with all this is that if you first make the rules conform to the movies as much as possible and then realize that the resulting gameplay doesn't end up looking like what you see in the movies, it doesn't mean that you need to change those basic rules to fix the gameplay. You also have the option of adding new rules which don't eliminate or change the core rules as such, but instead just add exceptions and limitations to them in order to prevent players from abusing them.

And as brandx0 said, the point isn't to use canon statistics just for the sake of accuracy of the stats themselves, but instead in order to recreate the right look and feel. And as I said, the numbers are just half of what makes the right look and feel; the other part is actually making the "right" actions sensible from a gameplay point of view and the "wrong" ones less so. Of course that's probably the harder part, but I'm pretty confident. ;)

 

Offline TomShak

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Re: Speed and WWII Discussion (split from NuY-wing thread)
I'm glad the dev team has a good sense of realism :) I think it's easy to get too carried away with what's canon or what an observed speed is in one section of the movie and forget that at the end of the day the result is to make a game. I've seen other mods get bogged down in this, so it's reassuring that people have got their head screwed on the right way on this one :)

Personally I suspect that 292 m/s (or whatever the speed quote ealier was) is probably going to be too fast for gun based combat. Gun range is probably only going to be a few hundred meters at best as you just can't hit something small and moving fast any further away than that. At 292 m/s that's not a lot of time available for firing. Jet fighters dogfight at substantially less than 292 m/s (probably closer to 180 m/s), even so gun fighting in jets generally involves a lot of turning but not a lot of hitting anything.

@zookeeper: Yes circle fights are a really good example of what I meant. WW2 combat tended to be lots of turning fights, jet dogfighting tends to be turning fights. However in the star wars films most combat actually involves one fighter chasing another and shooting at it. The person being shot at tends to say "I can't shake him!" as they proceed in an almost perfect straight line. Needless to say when you put a real person in that situation then they turn for all they are worth!

So I think that these kind of games will always involve some degree of turning fights, even though you never saw a turning fight in the movies. However, as you say though there is a lot you can do to mitigate it, my preferred strategy here is mission design. Don't create missions that simply involve two sets of ships shooting at each other. Give the two sides conflicting objectives, such as one side has to escort a ship and the other side has to destroy it. That way in order to win players can't just get involved in continuous turning fights, they have to consider their objectives.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 07:04:49 am by TomShak »

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Speed and WWII Discussion (split from NuY-wing thread)
Curiously enough, in many multiplayer servers for IL-2 Sturmovik, the single most effective tactic - vulching, or gun strafing targets on ground - is usually frowned upon if not outright banned...

Even though it is a historically valid tactic. Given the opportunity, I don't think any fighter pilot would have passed the chance to destroy enemy planes before they could take off or during take off. Unless they were low on ammo or fuel.

Point is, it is likely that if there are easily exploitable tactics, it is likely that some people will start calling them lame instead of trying to figure out how to counter them...


However, regarding gun combat... it all depends on weapon accuracy and whether or not dynamic field of view (changeable in flight) is available. On IL-2 Sturmovik, effective gun range starts from about 300-200 metres based on my experiences. You can score individual hits on big targets such as bombers from, say, 500-700 metres if you're good, but it's not reliable and it's a fast way to waste ammunition.

Jet fighters are both bigger and have better aiming devices with lead indicators (pippers or lead slopes) plus higher rate of fire with them nice gattling guns, so the ranges are a bit longer there despite higher speeds, as far as I know.

Considering that WW2 planes and Star Wars fighter craft are roughly the same size, but SW ships have more accurate weapons and aiming systems (lead indicator, assuming it's available in FotG) so I would estimate the effective gun range to be about the same as in WW2 combat; effectively starting from about 300 metres in, regardless of how far the laser bolts actually fly. Although on head-on approaches you would typically start firing pot shots at your opponent as soon as you're in range, while trying to fly evasively at the same time.
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Re: Speed and WWII Discussion (split from NuY-wing thread)
Could we get a figure for say how fast the A-wing has been made? I recall the IRC chat log saying that when you crunched the numbers, it was "flying at the seat of your pants," so I'm curious just how fast craft speeds will be.

...

Frankly, as someone who plays with what dogfighting test missions we have usually several times every day, I think what we have now is pretty darn good in the "looks and feels like in the films" respect. There's several little details and missing features which still get in the way a bit, but the only bigger problem perhaps in need of a clever solution is the circling fights. They don't fly in circles in SW (with the exception of the falcon and those two interceptors ;)), but of course that's what happens all the time in-game. However, it's not necessarily something that would need to be fixed by tweaking the flight mechanics themselves; there should be other ways to dissuade a pilot from trying to shrug someone off their tail by simply doing steep turns and circles.

For example, currently in FotG you can fly as slow as you like, but it's usually suicide if there's a chance that someone could start shooting at you. So that's an incredibly simple and natural gameplay solution (whether intentional or not) to the problem of things "not looking like in the films" as far as speed is concerned. No one wants to get killed so they tend to keep their speed high just like in the films. So, my point is that making things look and feel like in the films while having interesting gameplay is not just about limiting what each ship can do, it's just as much about encouraging the "right" kind of actions and discouraging the "wrong" kind of actions, even if the player could do anything they like. In your Star Trek mod example, I don't see the problem as being the fact that impulse power was replicated exactly, but instead the fact that they didn't make sure that it could not be abused, which they could have done by putting in some extra rules which would have prevented it and which wouldn't have (seriously) contradicted canon either.

...
Of course there will be turning fights, that's what dogfighting is. Will it be possible to pull some tricks like hitting the "brakes" and having your opponent overshoot you or pulling some aerial maneuver to get the upper hand? This would provide more options to dogfighting than just simply out-turning a bandit but also outsmarting them as well.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 09:00:16 pm by EtherShock »

 

Offline zookeeper

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Re: Speed and WWII Discussion (split from NuY-wing thread)
Could we get a figure for say how fast the A-wing has been made? I recall the IRC chat log saying that when you crunched the numbers, it was "flying at the seat of your pants," so I'm curious just how fast craft speeds will be.
The a-wing's top speed is currently 250, but can get to 300 if you transfer all power to engines. When you buzz past stationary targets at that speed, it's...pretty fast. You can still pepper a target you're flying past with a volley of laser fire at that speed, but it has quite a hit-and-run feel to it.

Let's hope we'll get a new gameplay video up sometime soon.

...

Frankly, as someone who plays with what dogfighting test missions we have usually several times every day, I think what we have now is pretty darn good in the "looks and feels like in the films" respect. There's several little details and missing features which still get in the way a bit, but the only bigger problem perhaps in need of a clever solution is the circling fights. They don't fly in circles in SW (with the exception of the falcon and those two interceptors ;)), but of course that's what happens all the time in-game. However, it's not necessarily something that would need to be fixed by tweaking the flight mechanics themselves; there should be other ways to dissuade a pilot from trying to shrug someone off their tail by simply doing steep turns and circles.

For example, currently in FotG you can fly as slow as you like, but it's usually suicide if there's a chance that someone could start shooting at you. So that's an incredibly simple and natural gameplay solution (whether intentional or not) to the problem of things "not looking like in the films" as far as speed is concerned. No one wants to get killed so they tend to keep their speed high just like in the films. So, my point is that making things look and feel like in the films while having interesting gameplay is not just about limiting what each ship can do, it's just as much about encouraging the "right" kind of actions and discouraging the "wrong" kind of actions, even if the player could do anything they like. In your Star Trek mod example, I don't see the problem as being the fact that impulse power was replicated exactly, but instead the fact that they didn't make sure that it could not be abused, which they could have done by putting in some extra rules which would have prevented it and which wouldn't have (seriously) contradicted canon either.

...
Of course there will be turning fights, that's what dogfighting is.
Well, part of the "problem" I guess is that you actually never see a 1-on-1 dogfight in the movies where both ships would actually get a shot at each other. It's always just one ship chasing the other, with the chased ship getting blown up by the chaser or the chaser getting blown up by someone else. So when we have 1-on-1 dogfights it's necessarily going to feel at least just a little bit different than in the movies.

But then again, I'm probably one of the people who have spent the most time watching the same movie scenes over and over again hundreds of times, so my idea of what "looks and feels like in the movies" is most likely somewhat more strict than that of most other people.

Will it be possible to pull some tricks like hitting the "brakes" and having your opponent overshoot you or pulling some aerial maneuver to get the upper hand? This would provide more options to dogfighting than just simply out-turning a bandit but also outsmarting them as well.
I've managed to kill myself several times by slowing down and having a chasing TIE smash into my ship, killing me in the process but then happily flying away himself, does that count? :P

 
Re: Speed and WWII Discussion (split from NuY-wing thread)
Is that 250 metres per second?  if so, that sounds cool.  I fly A-wings in Star Wars Galaxies with my character Leaph Chausew and I believe my current ship does 170 metres per second unboosted (I'm not sure how easily comparable speed is in two different games...but still), and it feels pretty quick. 

I must say that I am totally willing to trust the devs for this game, though.  From what I've read, it seems that your ideas are exactly what I would want an X-wing game's designers to have.  I eagerly anticipate this game's release; however, I'm happy to be patient if it's as good as I hope it should be.  I'd just hate to see it get cancelled/abandoned like so many other promising projects.

 

Offline MR_T3D

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Re: Speed and WWII Discussion (split from NuY-wing thread)
i think the source of difficulty here is that none of the movies feature a 1v1 dogfight.
episode 2 doesn't really count, and obi-wan did not want to kill the fetts. and is prequel trilogy :lol:
in all ofther instnaces of spacebourne battles, i think its safe to assue that due to the sheer amount of action occouring, and two fighters in a turning fight at low speed would be easy prey for oursiders, and this excuse can work for 'i can't shake him!' occourances, given the TIE is more agile than the rebel fighter(s).
but we can't asses the games mechanics UNTIL WE PLAY IT...

is it safe to assume, leaph, that your galaxies character is on starstrider...
...but i don't play MMORPG's anymore, before this train of thoguht goes much further. never a fan of the sheer amount of time and RPG-ness 'you must grind this much XP to fly that x-wing you bought months ago'
flight mechanics were solid, though, in my limited PvE expirence in it.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 07:53:20 am by MR_T3D »

 

Offline chief1983

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Re: Speed and WWII Discussion (split from NuY-wing thread)
The biggest reason I can see for us having to nerf the speeds is hit detection in multi.  Even at FS2 speeds, you sometimes have to put a significant lead on the faster fighters to hit them.  With a ship going 4x as fast as a Perseus...well, you get the picture.  Unless we find another way to solve that, hitting anything with a ping of more than 75 could be damn near impossible.
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Offline CountBuggula

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Re: Speed and WWII Discussion (split from NuY-wing thread)
The biggest reason I can see for us having to nerf the speeds is hit detection in multi.  Even at FS2 speeds, you sometimes have to put a significant lead on the faster fighters to hit them.  With a ship going 4x as fast as a Perseus...well, you get the picture.  Unless we find another way to solve that, hitting anything with a ping of more than 75 could be damn near impossible.

Client-side hit detection?  I know...it's generally not used because it has the potential to be abused by cheaters, but that would at least be a step in the right direction.  Though I have no idea how possible it would be to make such a huge change in the FS engine...