[General Battuta]

Wait, are you expressing the fact that the Shivans can be infected, or that the Flood can defeat the Shivans?

The former. Which you at this point have already conceded.

And once one Shivan is infected, the Flood have won. The Gravemind will have access to every piece of information it needs to completely disassemble the Shivan species.

Bear in mind here that the Flood can successfully capture and operationalize Covenant warships, which have weapons as powerful as a Sathanas and far longer-ranged.

Go play some FreeSpace 2. Disable and disarm a Shivan ship - it's not hard. Said Shivan ship cannot 'beam' anything. You can board it at your leisure.

This debate is fundamentally pretty stupid, because it is a crossover debate, but I am interested in getting you to at least assume a position that somewhat resembles logic. The Flood have all the capabilities the Terrans or Vasudans have, plus the ability to absorb and use the biology and technology of the Shivans, plus limitless numbers that dwarf even the Sathanas fleet.

Recall that the fleet that the Flood brought to bear against the Forerunners in the final attack on the Maginot Sphere consisted of 4,802,019 ships. Even the Shivans never assembled numbers like that.

Oh and this:

As for me, I find it near impossible for the Flood to successfully render Shivans as hosts. They're a fusion of biology and technology - how can a disease affect a half cybernetic being? So, maybe the Shivan will die, but the Flood can't use its corpse and turn it into part of their forces.

A SPARTAN-II is a fusion of biology and technology. It is as vulnerable to infection as anything else.

The Flood even compromised and drove to rampancy 2401 Penitent Tangent, a purely electronic being. For that matter, the Gravemind even turned Mendicant Bias, an AI built specifically to study and fight it. Being a machine does not make you safe.

Look, in the end, the Haloverse just operates on such a larger scale that comparisons are basically meaningless. FreeSpace is about investing meaning into conflicts over single systems; Halo's story is about the fate of the galaxy in a conflict with a transgalactic life form.

You need to get over the idea that your favorite universe's ability to beat up other universes is what makes it good. BSG is the best science fiction TV ever made, but its 'universe' is not exactly a powerhouse. It's amazing because of that.

[Marcov]

The former. Which you at this point have already conceded.

And once one Shivan is infected, the Flood have won. The Gravemind will have access to every piece of information it needs to completely disassemble the Shivan species.

Not if the Shivans kill that infected Shivan.

Bear in mind here that the Flood can successfully capture and operationalize Covenant warships, which have weapons as powerful as a Sathanas and far longer-ranged.

The Sathanas can easily jump near that Covenant warship and beam it to death via subspace.

Go play some FreeSpace 2. Disable and disarm a Shivan ship - it's not hard. Said Shivan ship cannot 'beam' anything. You can board it at your leisure.

Unless, as I said, the Shivans destroy that Sathanas.

This debate is fundamentally pretty stupid, because it is a crossover debate, but I am interested in getting you to at least assume a position that somewhat resembles logic. The Flood have all the capabilities the Terrans or Vasudans have, plus the ability to absorb and use the biology and technology of the Shivans, plus limitless numbers that dwarf even the Sathanas fleet.

The Shivans had a fleet much bigger when they encountered the Ancients, right? It's even highly possible that they exterminated a race that spanned multiple galaxies, which fell like flies to them.

Recall that the fleet that the Flood brought to bear against the Forerunners in the final attack on the Maginot Sphere consisted of 4,802,019 ships. Even the Shivans never assembled numbers like that.

Yes, they have far more ships than the named Shivan ships we encountered in the FSverse, but the Ancients had occupied multiple galaxies with a knowledge of subspace for millenia. And they fell like flies to the Shivans. So a gruesome amount of warships is required to actually do that, right?

I know I'm not entirely sure of this, as I've posted another thread on how exactly big the Ancients' empire were, but we are definitely sure that they have a society far more powerful than that of the GTVA. Besides, have the Flood shown any sign of anti-stellar weaponry? NO. Ridicoulos. With that amount of warships they couldn't destroy a star. The Sathanas armada could lure the Flood into a system, in time for the star to explode. Bye-bye Flood. Of course this requires good planning, but the Shivans aren't at all stupid enough not to do that.

Look, in the end, the Haloverse just operates on such a larger scale that comparisons are basically meaningless. FreeSpace is about investing meaning into conflicts over single systems; Halo's story is about the fate of the galaxy in a conflict with a transgalactic life form.

You can't point blank just state that. It's said in the Ancient poem that they conquered multiple galaxies, which can also be possible. Until you can prove to me that it's highly possible they didn't, or did not, at all, your statement isn't factual.

I repeat:  Have you read the Halo books?  Unless you now prove otherwise, I am going to be forced to assume you know exactly zero about how the Flood works.  When you play as John in the Halo games, take a good look at the Marines around you.  They have a bad habit of dying and becoming more Flood.  It happens with stressing regularity, assuming you've actually got friendlies in the area.  If you'd listen to the in-game radio chatter, you'd hear the wails and shrieks of complete and utter terror as Marine outposts are overrun in seconds.  Am I being clear at all?  In close combat, the Flood wins, especially in confined ships quarters.

Also, you hear Lieutenant Ash screaming to death in the intro.

Yeah. Marines die. YOU don't die. Why? The Flood aren't invincible. They can be killed. If YOU can kill them then the Shivans should be able to.

What about this.  Sathanas doesn't know that transport is infected.  Infected Transport docks with Sath.  Sath gets infected.  Fun time for everyone.

What about this. Infected Sath attacks other Sath. Sath fleet destroys infected Sath, and from that time on Shivans destroy any transports that try to dock to them. Fun time for everyone.

No, you don't have a source for that, because anything Halo-verse-ish has never been encountered in FreeSpace.  We do not know if they can be infected.  Seeing as they are at least semi-biological, I'm going with yes.  Prove me wrong.

You've made a point on that matter. However the Shivans can beam the infection to bits, as I've said, stopping the disease.

And when you said the Shivans would just beam everything to death, because they're obviously the next best thing to omnipotent in that regard.  Oh, and when you said that it's impossible for the Flood to board a hundred Juggernauts.  Or when you said, of all things, that Shivans would win against a disease in close combat.

So everything I said about Shivans winning against the Flood is conjecture? If that's so, everything you said about the Flood winning against the Shivans is also conjecture.

[General Battuta]

Look, I'm just going to be straight with you. You're being retarded. You're playing a zero-sum game in which UNIVERSE A has to BEAT UNIVERSE B because it matters to you. That is not the goal here. The goal is to create an interesting conflict.

The very reason the Flood is so dangerous is because it knows everything that its victims know. The moment the first Shivan goes down, the Flood will know everything it does. Sathanas fleets, everything. The Flood took down a civilization that built weapons which made the ability to destroy stars seem frankly trivial.

But frankly that's besides the point.

If you're interested in having a debate based on **** you make up, then you're going to be debating yourself.

If you're interested in having a debate that actually represents an interesting, fact-grounded crossover where every party is played to its strengths, then demonstrate that you can.

But right now your argument is basically a castle built of your own feces, a series of simple stimulus-response chains where you take anything given to you and say THE SHIVANS CAN BLOW IT UP

A good crossover debate is based on the desire to create an interesting match between two universes. What you are trying to do is link your favorite universe's quality to its ability to beat up other universes.

It's like a five-year-old trying to intimidate other kids by saying that his dad could beat up their dads. It means nothing to an adult.

[Marcov]

How the **** am I being retarded when I've pointed sensible things at you? You keep on saying "this is stupid....this is stupid...." When you haven't even proven it's stupid. For goodness sakes' WHEN did I EVER say things that "FreeSpace can beat anything up"?

How exactly am I not creating an interesting match? Unless an interesting match to you means that the Flood wins.

Or what? Hiding your ass to say you're trying to make a good debate, when you're debating the same way I do? Wow. Just wow.

[General Battuta]

See, the problem is, you don't know **** about Halo, and I do.

I'm going to need you to read and carefully understand this post before you proceed.

During the battle at the Maginot Sphere, Flood boarded nearly half of the warships under Offensive Bias' command.

That was half of a fleet of eleven thousand ships.

In a single battle.

These ships were aware of the Flood, knew that they were coming, and had tremendous firepower.

The Flood took half of them anyway.

If you're going to make arguments about how 'lol the Shivans would beam them' - when the Flood have access to equally powerful plasma weapons with far longer range, and equally precise subspace drives - you're going to need to find a way around this.

And you can't.

So either concede this statement:

You've made a point on that matter. However the Shivans can beam the infection to bits, as I've said, stopping the disease.

to be wrong, or justify it.

Look, you don't get it. The Flood are not a bunch of dumb space zombies. They are more intelligent than the most powerful AIs ever built by a civilization that dwarfed the Ancient empire and more widespread than even Iain Bank's culture.

And whatever you can do, they can take it from a single corpse and know how to do it better.

They're a nightmare.

The point is not 'wtfomg the Flood win'. The point is that the Flood are going to be at the very least a match for the Shivans.

[Marcov]

During the battle at the Maginot Sphere, Flood boarded nearly half of the warships under Offensive Bias' command.
That was half of a fleet of eleven thousand ships.
In a single battle.
These ships were aware of the Flood, knew that they were coming, and had tremendous firepower.
The Flood took half of them anyway.
If you're going to make arguments about how 'lol the Shivans would beam them' - when the Flood have access to equally powerful plasma weapons with far longer range, and equally precise subspace drives - you're going to need to find a way around this.

Their subspace drives aren't that precise.

So either concede this statement:

You've made a point on that matter. However the Shivans can beam the infection to bits, as I've said, stopping the disease.

to be wrong, or justify it.

I was trying to say that, if the Flood boards a Shivan ship, a Shivan can probably beam them right away, preventing the disease from spreading. Seems like you didn't pay much attention.

Look, you don't get it. The Flood are not a bunch of dumb space zombies. They are more intelligent than the most powerful AIs ever built by a civilization that dwarfed the Ancient empire and more widespread than even Iain Bank's culture.

And whatever you can do, they can take it from a single corpse and know how to do it better.

They're a nightmare.

Err...that's fanboyism.

[General Battuta]

So let me quote myself here, since you probably didn't catch it:

The point is not 'wtfomg the Flood win'. The point is that the Flood are going to be at the very least a match for the Shivans.

Now for this:

They're subspace drives aren't that precise.

Slipspace drives behave exactly like FreeSpace subspace drives, except they are longer-ranged and faster. They are tactically just as precise.

Again, explain how this can possibly be correct:

I was trying to say that, if the Flood boards a Shivan ship, a Shivan can probably beam them right away, preventing the disease from spreading. Seems like you didn't pay much attention.

if the ships under Offensive Bias' command could not stop the infection from spreading when their armada was far larger than even the greatest concentration of Shivan forces we've ever seen.

Err...that's fanboyism.

See, that remark just reinforces the fact that you don't know **** about Halo, because that's a canonical statement. The Flood were specifically written to be a challenge to Iain Banks' Culture, which the Forerunners are modeled from.

[Dilmah G]

Marcov, man, do you really want to keep debating this? No one's going to say anything if you show the maturity to concede your point and walk away like a man.

[Scotty]

Could you fix those quotes?  Hard to tell why you're trying to argue now.

1) How would they know to?  By the time they figure that out (because it isn't really intuitive), they're already dead.  You can't just assume that the Shivans know exactly how to counter the Flood at every turn without having ever encountered them.

2) Once again, you obviously haven't read any background info on Halo.  I'll spell it out.  Halo ships operate at speeds in excess of thousands of kilometers per second.  Their weapons ranges are measured in thousands of kilometers for the short range weapons.  They are, quite simply, completely superior in every single way to FreeSpace ships, which are horribly slow, have butchered ranges, and are ridiculously underdefended.  The Halo ship will be out of range in fractions of a second, and will retain range on the Sathanas instead for several minutes, and jump drives have to recharge.

3) Go read the poems again.  They are clearly written in a more lofty language than is necessary, indicating hyperbole.  Plus, they describe their empire as enormous before they discover subspace.  Unless the Ancients lived for thousands of years a piece, they would still not have a substantial (by subspace terms) presense in terms of colonies and expanse.  It's impractical to think that the Ancients conquered entire galaxies when, as far as canon is concerned, we have no indication that subspace can be used to reach other galaxies.  Extra-solar travel is restricted to jump nodes.

5) We also have absolutely zero hard data on the number of Shivan ships present during the fall of the Ancients.  Once again, hyperbole runs rampant throughout your source.  There are absolutely zero canonical guesses even at Shivan fleet strength.  We do, however, have a canon example for the Flood.  Over four million ships.  We also don't have any data, not any hard data that the Ancients empire was larger than, or even as large as, the GTVA.  Speculate all you want, but there is nothing to indicate one way or the other.  On that point, all that would be required to destroy the Ancients is a Lucifer class destroyer.  One.  They couldn't touch it.  It could kill their people and planets.  There is no correlation between the fall of the Ancients' Empire and the number of ships the Shivans possess.  Absolutely none.

6)  Anti-stellar weaponry?  How do we know what the Shivans used to destroy Capella was a weapon?  Prove that first (except you can't.  It's a theory).  Then prove the Shivans have the capability to do so again, to any star they choose.  Then prove that every single Flood ship would be destroyed in the resultant supernova.  It only takes one.

7)  See arguments above.  Flowery, hyberbolic language.  He can and did point blank state that.  And he's right.

EDIT:  And now that I'm five six posts behind () I'll just hope this makes sense anyway.

[Marcov]

Slipspace drives behave exactly like FreeSpace subspace drives, except they are longer-ranged and faster. They are tactically just as precise.

They're longer-ranged? Then you can't properly use it in a fight. Can they jump 100 clicks from their position? Plus, didn't it take months to make slipspace jumps, and FS can do that in hours/a few days?

Again, explain how this can possibly be correct:

if the ships under Offensive Bias' command could not stop the infection from spreading when their armada was far larger than even the greatest concentration of Shivan forces we've ever seen.

Now you'll have to prove to me that the Ancients were NOT an empire of multiple galaxies. Cause in the poem it states they were. Now, how big, actually, is a galaxy? Billions of stars. That's right. And a battle that occurs in order to capture a galaxy would require, yes, billions of ships, which the Shivans did, according to the poem (since it stated that the Ancients WERE a civilization of galaxies). Now prove that wrong.

See, that remark just reinforces the fact that you don't know **** about Halo, because that's a canonical statement. The Flood were specifically written to be a challenge to Iain Banks' Culture, which the Forerunners are modeled from.

On the other hand, you, remarking that the Flood were a "nightmare", reflects transparently that you are probably a Halo fanboy. This is similar to what I said that "Shivans = epic win". Wow, look, we're a bunch of fanboys debating, but the other fanboy claims he's attempting to make a good debate, the other simply tries to prove that FreeSpace can win in several aspects.

Now, wait a little before I quote Scotty's reply.

Sorry for the double post, but anyway.

Scotty, yes, I'm accepting the fact that the poem was used to dramatize the war, but we aren't also too sure of that. It isn't fully canonical that the Ancients had an empire of multiple galaxies, however, it is stated in their poem, which you say, is in a "hyperbolic" state.

But we ARE sure that the Ancients had a larger empire than the GTVA. It's STATED in FreeSpace wiki, I just forgot where I read it. For now, I have to go somewhere, so just wait a few hours before I post again.

@Dilmah G:

You are outright stating that FreeSpace surely loses, since you're telling me to retreat. Sorry, but not for now.

So it's mature to say that Halo wins? It's also mature to say that FreeSpace can also beat Halo in several aspects, and it's possible that FreeSpace can win against Halo. Period.

[General Battuta]

They're longer-ranged? Then you can't properly use it in a fight. Can they jump 100 clicks from their position? Plus, didn't it take months to make slipspace jumps, and FS can do that in hours/a few days?

I can canonically prove this wrong. During the fall of Reach Covenant warships used precision Slipspace jumps to attack an orbital platform with navigational data aboard. Precision was on the order of meters.

FreeSpace subspace drives are confined to nodes in a very narrow chunk of the galaxy. Slipspace drives can go anywhere, any time.

Now you'll have to prove to me that the Ancients were NOT an empire of multiple galaxies. Cause in the poem it states they were. Now, how big, actually, is a galaxy? Billions of stars. That's right. And a battle that occurs in order to capture a galaxy would require, yes, billions of ships, which the Shivans did, according to the poem (since it stated that the Ancients WERE a civilization of galaxies). Now prove that wrong.

See Scotty's post. This is just **** you are making up. There is zero evidence that the Ancients occupied billions of stars.  Nor do we have any evidence that the Shivans had more ships than...one. The Lucifer.

Explain to me what a Gravemind is.

Tell me who Mendicant Bias was.

See, if you're going to call me a fanboy, you have to explain how I know stuff about both Halo and FreeSpace. Has it occurred to you that going into a debate without knowing anything about one side is going to be a problem for you?

Let me quote myself a third time for your benefit:

The point is not 'wtfomg the Flood win'. The point is that the Flood are going to be at the very least a match for the Shivans.

Look, at this point, I think we might need to accept that we're arguing with a younger guy and just accept that he's probably more interested in saving face than having a sensible conversation.

Marcov is of the school of crossover debates that believes in winning. Let me quote him here:

So it's mature to say that Halo wins? It's also mature to say that FreeSpace can also beat Halo in several aspects, and it's possible that FreeSpace can win against Halo. Period.

He's somehow managed to read our posts so badly that he's missed the fact that nobody has said anything about Halo winning.

Until he stops running on RAEG and starts actually reading what's said to him I'm not sure he's going to make much progress. As it is he's just sliding deeper into 'i make **** up' territory instead of using canonical hard figures.

And he apparently abandoned all his previous arguments hoping we wouldn't notice.

So Marcov, any comment on the practicality of the Flood infecting a single Shivan and having immediate access to its knowledge?  Because you seem to have stopped arguing that it's impossible.

As for this:

On the other hand, you, remarking that the Flood were a "nightmare", reflects transparently that you are probably a Halo fanboy. This is similar to what I said that "Shivans = epic win". Wow, look, we're a bunch of fanboys debating, but the other fanboy claims he's attempting to make a good debate, the other simply tries to prove that FreeSpace can win in several aspects.

If I'm a Halo fanboi explain to me why I've said this to you

three times

The point is not 'wtfomg the Flood win'. The point is that the Flood are going to be at the very least a match for the Shivans.

[Dilmah G]

*sigh*

[Scotty]

Slipspace drives behave exactly like FreeSpace subspace drives, except they are longer-ranged and faster. They are tactically just as precise.

They're longer-ranged? Then you can't properly use it in a fight. Can they jump 100 clicks from their position? Plus, didn't it take months to make slipspace jumps, and FS can do that in hours/a few days?

Yes, they are longer ranged.  Yes, they can be used properly in a fight.  They can jump in within range, and that's all they need.  It takes months to jump from one end of human space to the other, which spans hundreds of light years.  FS ships can only do the same because of two reasons.  1) Their sphere of influence is significantly smaller and 2) they have jump nodes.

Again, explain how this can possibly be correct:

if the ships under Offensive Bias' command could not stop the infection from spreading when their armada was far larger than even the greatest concentration of Shivan forces we've ever seen.

Now you'll have to prove to me that the Ancients were NOT an empire of multiple galaxies. Cause in the poem it states they were. Now, how big, actually, is a galaxy? Billions of stars. That's right. And a battle that occurs in order to capture a galaxy would require, yes, billions of ships, which the Shivans did, according to the poem (since it stated that the Ancients WERE a civilization of galaxies). Now prove that wrong.

Actually read my above post, please.  Flower, hyperbolic language and statements that don't fit in with the mechanics of the FS universe.

See, that remark just reinforces the fact that you don't know **** about Halo, because that's a canonical statement. The Flood were specifically written to be a challenge to Iain Banks' Culture, which the Forerunners are modeled from.

On the other hand, you, remarking that the Flood were a "nightmare", reflects transparently that you are probably a Halo fanboy. This is similar to what I said that "Shivans = epic win". Wow, look, we're a bunch of fanboys debating, but the other fanboy claims he's attempting to make a good debate, the other simply tries to prove that FreeSpace can win in several aspects.

Now, wait a little before I quote Scotty's reply.

Quoting canon information != make one a fanboy.  They're described as a nightmare in text.

It's STATED in FreeSpace wiki, I just forgot where I read it.

That might actually be admissable.  If it were from canon.  The FS Wiki is not a reliable source of canon info.  No wiki is.

He's somehow managed to read our posts so badly that he's missed the fact that nobody has said anything about Halo winning.

Indeed.

[General Battuta]

Man, this is some of the most seriously retarded **** I have had to deal with since our last sexism debate. Now I remember why I pledged never to get into crossover debates.

People get really, really stupid, especially when the other side of the crossover is a universe they don't know **** about.

I don't know where this asinine 'win/lose' mentality comes in but Marcov seems to have swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

Okay, so, Marcov, before you go any further, please just look at this picture for a while, take deep breaths, and tell yourself that nobody is here to LYNCH THE FREESPACE ZOMG



Okay. Now please listen up.

If you want to make an interesting argument, you need to use hard facts.

You cannot create an assertion which is based on a tremendously selective reading of a single line in a FreeSpace 1 cutscene extrapolated across an imaginary construct of the Ancient/Shivan War to reach an imaginary figure about the number of Shivan ships.

You really need to use hard numbers here, or you're just making **** up.

There is no point in arguing about whether the Flood or the Shivans will win in a fight. That has never been the question here. We don't know how many vessels the Shivans have, how big their biggest ships are, or how much territory they control. We don't know any of that about the Flood either. They're an immovable object and an irresistible force, respectively.

The assertion is that the Flood can definitely give the Shivans a run for their money. Specifically, that they could infect Shivans, turning their knowledge and technology over to the Flood. Furthermore, the Flood was never defeated, something the Shivans can't say. They have literally never been stopped - only slowed down, and that was accomplished only by wiping out every sentient life form in the galaxy by the use of weapons that dwarf the Capella supernova, and even that could not kill them.

They're in the same ballpark of power.

[Dilmah G]

Marcov, please show some maturity and concede. I promise you, none of us will speak of it again if you do.

It's not 'losing', it's showing 'maturity'. This is a discussion, not an argument.

[Hades]

Marcov, please stop being a dumbass.

[Scotty]

Marcov, please show some maturity and concede. I promise you, none of us will speak of it again if you do.

It's not 'losing', it's showing 'maturity'. This is a discussion, not an argument.

Marcov, please stop being a dumbass.

You're not helping, Hades! >:|

[General Battuta]

God, Marcov didn't even read my second post in the thread before accusing me of being a fanboi.  

MARCOV CLICK THIS

[Dilmah G]

Battuta, dude, you're just giving him fuel to keep him going. You say it yourself that he'll more than likely not reverse his stance so why are you of all people bothering?

Rather than piling it on him (before he's even replied to your last post!), wouldn't it be more sensible to see what he says and if he does concede, have the both of you walk away from it?

* Dilmah G takes cover.

[General Battuta]

okay FINE go and make sense

edeeted