[Enioch]

Just tried Akizuki with HEAP ammo.

Holy ****.

[Admiral MS]

Well, I'm finally thinking about selling my first Tier X ship: Shimakaze. When I started playing I really wanted to get that boat and I played IJN DDs like crazy to get it. And while my results were already pretty bad before 0.6.0 (CVs, radar cruiser got closer than 10 k, met random US/RU DD) yesterday I got one of these rounds where I was radio detected the moment I tried to even get into reasonable torpedo range and then only running away until eventually getting killed. Guess I might just dump DDs altogether, sell my Fletcher instead of getting a Gearing and play more BBs. Need to get a Kurfürst cause brawling in a Montana often ends up rather disappointing 

On the other hand, besides certain detection skills I don't want to take, I do like the new skill tree. At least for CAs and BBs with 16/17 point captains it feels more like I got a choice between useful skills depending on how I want to play the ship instead of having more or less one set of skills for a given ship that are best no matter what.

[StarSlayer]

I don't think I would sell a Tier IX or X honestly.  You never know what buffs or meta shifts might come down the line later and the initial investment in buying them is steep.  Not to mention gunboat DDs like the Fletch arguably benefit from having RPF.

[Enioch]

I'd argue that non-gunboats benefit even more - for you have the chance to see the DD-killer coming. My Shima has Radio Location and she works better than ever just fine (2 games yesterday, 107k damage average).

[StarSlayer]

I'd argue that non-gunboats benefit even more - for you have the chance to see the DD-killer coming. My Shima has Radio Location and she works better than ever just fine (2 games yesterday, 107k damage average).

I haven't taken any cans out since the patch dropped so I haven't had a chance to asses the impact.  I am a little worried for the Shiri, she's just too damn slow if there are too many enemies running around with Dowsing sticks. 

I will say getting concealment expert as a fourth skill is pretty rad, a lot of my skippers are around the 10 point marker so huzzah.  Missouri is down to about 12 klick detection range which is pretty brutal.

[Admiral MS]

I'd argue that non-gunboats benefit even more - for you have the chance to see the DD-killer coming. My Shima has Radio Location and she works better than ever just fine (2 games yesterday, 107k damage average).

I'm usually getting spotted somewhere and then killed by a radar cruiser.  It's just no fun always being forced to run away from everything while being slower and turning like a cruiser. Half of my last 10 Shima rounds were below 10k damage. Well maybe I became bad with IJN DDs over the last year and in turn better with CAs/BBs... I mean its funny to see how I don't care much about Shimas in my Montana cause they are easy to hit and I can see their torps pretty early contrary to US and RU DDs which are a pain in the ass.

[Enioch]

May I ask what torps you're running? And do you have any replays you could send over? NVM, I wouldn't be able to play old replays anyway.

[Admiral MS]

Would like to use 8 km but then I can often spent the first half of the round twiddling thumbs cause the only stuff I get into that range is likely to evade and/or kill me, even worse with radio location as I can't flank anymore without being detected. So currently I use 12 km but I tried 20 km and actually got more hits, mostly on unsuspecting enemies in the back.

[Enioch]

...How.

I mean, seriously, the 20km torps get spotted halfway across the map. I play with the 8km ones and get 5-10 torp hits a game.

Anyway, if you like, send me a couple of 0.6.0 replays and I'll see if something screams 'misplay!' at me or if your luck is just horrible.

[Enioch]

Here's my most recent game. I consider it a rather bad run, given the uncontested air superiority of the opponents. Note how I hooked up north to attack the BBs from a different angle (mid-lategame), all the while using my RPF to confirm that the enemy gunships wouldn't intercept me.

Frankly, I hate carriers with a burning passion (because they can instadelete any DD they find separated from the pack, and IJN DDs need to separate from the pack occasionally). Radar cruisers aren't that much of a problem, really.

In a game with no CVs, my baseline expectation is minimum of 8 torp hits.

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[Col. Fishguts]

Some interesting points regarding HEAP ammo:

http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/112361-dealing-damage-heapifhe-edition/

[Scourge of Ages]

Some interesting points regarding HEAP ammo:

http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/112361-dealing-damage-heapifhe-edition/

Interesting! I just skimmed it though, and read the TL;DR. I have HEAP on my Amagi (IJN Tier 8 bb) Captain, is this a good choice, or pointless? It seems like it would still be beneficial.

[StarSlayer]

Some interesting points regarding HEAP ammo:

http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/112361-dealing-damage-heapifhe-edition/

Interesting! I just skimmed it though, and read the TL;DR. I have HEAP on my Amagi (IJN Tier 8 bb) Captain, is this a good choice, or pointless? It seems like it would still be beneficial.

Most of the secondaries on Amagi and Nagato shoot AP in which case HEAP isn't really contributing to their performance.  German secondary monsters like Bismarck would benefit, though using that many 4 pointer slots may lead to a compromise build.

[Scourge of Ages]

Ah, so the debate is more about secondaries, then. What are the advantages/disadvantages of using it on the main guns?

[Enioch]

No, the debate is about gun caliber.

TLDR: HEAP, essentially, gives a net improvement to HE shells fired from guns that are of smaller caliber than 155mm (with the extent of the net gain varying between ships and tiers). Those can be main or secondary guns, as you see fit. But the gun needs to fire HE in the first place.

So, it doesn't really make sense to use them in T7-8 IJN BBs, because those ships mostly fire AP from their secondaries. So, you're using a 4-point skill for no actual gain. And it doesn't make any sense to use HEAP on the massive main guns of those ships anyway.

[Scourge of Ages]

No, the debate is about gun caliber.

TLDR: HEAP, essentially, gives a net improvement to HE shells fired from guns that are of smaller caliber than 155mm (with the extent of the net gain varying between ships and tiers).

Ah, there's the source of confusion. I didn't notice that there was a maximum caliber.

[Enioch]

There's no hardcoded limit. But it makes no sense to use the skill on high calibre because the drawbacks outweigh the benefits.

[Enioch]

Capping wins games.

[StarSlayer]

This map back in CBT, skippering Kagerō with the original Type 93s?  It was a glorious.

[Enioch]

It was, wasn't it?

Ah, the old days of the T9 ghost...