Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Firesteel on August 16, 2018, 09:56:46 pm
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So it's a couple days a year since I uploaded a video (sorry about that but spring quarter kind of killed me with the TA workload). This next one is covering The Hammer and the Anvil through the end of Act 1 and I'm curious what people's current thoughts are on the HoL since they're going to feature prominently in this one (and so I know what people's assumptions are so I can try and add some insight :D).
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The HoL was an obvious potential outcome of the Shivans arrival. They make for a decent thread twist in FS1 and help a lot with it's world building. (It's through the lens of the HoL that we get some of the Vasudan lore.)
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I actually played FreeSpace 2 before FreeSpace and so i actually think, that their prophecy is right.
The most interesting context in the HoL was that this prophecy proves that early vasudans had contact with some Ancients.
Actually i think, that the HoL had much more potential to explore than the NTF... even i think that it make sense, that the HoL transformed into a terror organization after the destruction of the Lucifer. Because it was a symbol of their prophecy.
After the Capella Supernova i think, that there could be a new HoL-like religious group that simply believe the prophecies. Especially the Vasudans that were able to escape Capella alive and saw how the Sathanas fleet darkened the skies...
But as i said, HoL is much more interesting than NTF, but in contrast :V: was able to give the NTF more depth because of Admiral Bosch's motives.
They should have make HoL Monologues in FS1 :D For example, passages from the old scrolls :).
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In regards to the Vasudans and the Ancients, if I recall correctly the Reference Bible which kinda predates the FS1 game, mentions that the Ancients may have seeded the Vasudans.
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I thought BP's treatment of the HoL was just absolutely brilliant. When the HoL is treated as a social aspect of the Vasudans, it opens up so much possibility for exploring the Vasudans and how they differ from Terrans.
In the perspective of the main campaign, the Hammer of Light created this unease and tension for the player because their new allies aren't exactly the most reliable. And when you're neck deep in Shivans, the last thing you want is for your "reinforcements" to be a bunch of Hammer of Light infiltrators.
Operation Templar though was a pretty big disappointment. Once the HoL are divorced from the Shivans and the general in-universe lore and just treated as terrorists, they lose a lot of their enigma.
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I only recently finished the Freespace 1 campaign after years of playing FS2.
I definitely feel like the Hammer of Light were underdeveloped despite their potential to be as threatening and mysterious as the NTF, or even the Shivans. The way they're introduced is great and raises a lot of ideas that the story doesn't really make good on.
The Hammer and the Anvil establishes how devastating their guerilla tactics can potentially be when they show up masquerading as friendly pilots. Then, in The Darkness and the Light, we're thrown for a loop again when the the Taranis and a bunch of Shivans show up, voiding all the objectives outlined in the briefing and hinting that there's a lot more going on with the HoL than them simply being radical splinter group.
The rest of the campaign doesn't really explore much further though. When they show up in later missions, it more feels like they're present just to give us something to shoot at that isn't Shivan. The NTF have a similar introduction in Freespace 2 as a ragtag but dangerous guerilla force with mysterious motives. However, they're much better integrated into the main story, with the Trinity and ETAK project driving a lot of the plot forward. The monologues and SOC missions developed the NTF as a credible secondary antagonist without taking away a whole a lot of the mystery surrounding them.
If the HoL storyline was given a full arc like the NTF in FS2, it could've gone in some interesting directions by giving us insight into the history of the Vasudans and the Ancients; not to mention, expounding on the Shivan's role as the Great Destroyers.
Out of curiosity, have there been any campaigns from the HoL perspective? We've had NTF campaigns and recently even a Shivan campaign :eek: with Trimurti, but I don't remember hearing about any HoL campaigns. Would be interesting to see someone take a shot at something like that.
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I thought BP's treatment of the HoL was just absolutely brilliant. When the HoL is treated as a social aspect of the Vasudans, it opens up so much possibility for exploring the Vasudans and how they differ from Terrans.
In the perspective of the main campaign, the Hammer of Light created this unease and tension for the player because their new allies aren't exactly the most reliable. And when you're neck deep in Shivans, the last thing you want is for your "reinforcements" to be a bunch of Hammer of Light infiltrators.
Operation Templar though was a pretty big disappointment. Once the HoL are divorced from the Shivans and the general in-universe lore and just treated as terrorists, they lose a lot of their enigma.
Between the Ashes does a good job of making them menacing and interesting without the presence of Shivans.
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I think the Hammer of Light has more potential as protagonists than antagonists ... I actually had an entire campaign with a branching ending written about that but I had trouble starting it because I had trouble with all the exposition (and well, it involved at a lot of Numenera-style relic technology, e.g. an Archive megastructure suspended inside Zero-Vector Subspace, which would need new models and unique skyboxes) - the process of discovering the prophecies, their interpretation and ultimately the "oh no, it is true"-moment have all real potential.... come to think about it, if you do jumps in perspective it might just work... *grabs pen&paper and begins to furiously scribble*
The way their philosophy is laid out in FS1 makes then more fatalistic doomsayers but also leaves a lot to be desired ... but a lot of the "to be desired"-stuff is just video game storytelling of the 90s, in which {insert reference to higher power here}-forbid you introduce nuances and shades into the enemy faction(s) unless it is a group that is ultimately on your side (but then the "Antagonist Block" is still a major thing, because why cosign interpersonal hyperintentionality to the bin? /bitter)
I thought BP's treatment of the HoL was just absolutely brilliant.
This is not going to make new playable BP-content appear, you know ... /jealousy
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I thought BP's treatment of the HoL was just absolutely brilliant.
This is not going to make new playable BP-content appear, you know ... /jealousy
Sorry. I didn't mean to push BP into the discussion, but I thought the BP HoL was a noteworthy point in a thread asking about how we feel about the HoL.
It's been a while since I played through the campaign, but IIRC, the HoL was this ancient cult embedded within Vasudan society. That aspect combined with the fact that they have a lot more resources than you would expect from a splinter faction makes them enigmatic. Where are they getting these resources from? Are there spies leaking technology and resources to the HoL (as evident by them acquiring shielding technology), or has this been a faction that's been preparing for the Shivans for decades/centuries? Are the HoL just fanatical cultists that will die along with everyone else, or is there something to their madness, that will save them from the pending doom?
We never quite get to know the full extent of the power of the HoL. Comparatively speaking, we get a pretty good picture of how powerful the NTF is, down to the systems they control, the ships and fleets at their disposal, and who their head honcho is. And that makes fighting the NTF much more straightforward, until we get into Bosch and the ETAK of course. But the HoL starts off mysterious, and it's a mystery that's never quite solved or revealed to the player.
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Out of curiosity, have there been any campaigns from the HoL perspective? We've had NTF campaigns and recently even a Shivan campaign :eek: with Trimurti, but I don't remember hearing about any HoL campaigns. Would be interesting to see someone take a shot at something like that.
Well, I can't exactly let this pass by without plugging my very own "The Mantle":
https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=93933.0 (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=93933.0)
It's about an FS2-era HoL-resurgent cult, not the original Hammer, but I think it still qualifies.
I should note that the release I linked has a few issues -- primarily that the text goes by too quickly to read unless you have text-to-speech enabled. I've had a significant update in a nearly-complete state for quite a while, and I will finish it up and release it...uh...someday. (At which point I think I'll also ask Goober or somebody about putting it in the highlights. Fewer people seemed to play it than I'd hoped back when I released it, and I think it might've largely flown under the radar.)
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So it's a couple days a year since I uploaded a video (sorry about that but spring quarter kind of killed me with the TA workload). This next one is covering The Hammer and the Anvil through the end of Act 1 and I'm curious what people's current thoughts are on the HoL since they're going to feature prominently in this one (and so I know what people's assumptions are so I can try and add some insight :D).
You've read the FreeSpace Reference Bible, right? It has an interesting paragraph on the HoL that I don't think is repeated elsewhere:
The Temple at Altair, a massive ruins of what may have once been an Ancients’ building, stands on Altair 5, a liveable planet in a system not far from Vasuda Prime. This “temple” has been reconstructed into the headquarters for the “Hammer of Light”, which is a group of the most fanatical believers in the “Omen of Darkness” which is the term they have given to the eventual destruction of the Vasudan race. The Hammer of Light believes that only by staying steadfast and abandoning pride can they truly step into the Light and become one with their maker. Hence, they are a “Hammer of Light”, pounding in the values that they believe will help others see this light.
And there is also this bit, which describes a slightly different climax to FS1 than the one we actually saw:
Terrans begin constructing the tracking device immediately. They need to recover certain bits of technology from the Shivans to reconstruct the tracking device. The renegade Vasudans also have a piece of needed technology so there is also an offensive against them, requiring a showdown between the renegade and loyal Vasudans.
The "showdown" probably turned into the Black Omega mission, but there was never a real climactic confrontation among Vasudans in FS1.
Also, I recommend reading "Hammer of Light, Omen of Darkness" (http://wiki.hard-light.net/index.php/Hammer_of_Light,_Omen_of_Darkness) which is probably the best of the five short stories commissioned by Interplay to promote FS1.
I explored Hammer of Light philosophy a bit in my fanfic "The Decision" (https://sectorgame.com/goober/the-decision.html).
The actual game design reason for the HoL was probably to add a bit of variety so the player isn't fighting Shivans the entire game.
Well, I can't exactly let this pass by without plugging my very own "The Mantle":
https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=93933.0 (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=93933.0)
It's about an FS2-era HoL-resurgent cult, not the original Hammer, but I think it still qualifies.
I should note that the release I linked has a few issues -- primarily that the text goes by too quickly to read unless you have text-to-speech enabled. I've had a significant update in a nearly-complete state for quite a while, and I will finish it up and release it...uh...someday. (At which point I think I'll also ask Goober or somebody about putting it in the highlights. Fewer people seemed to play it than I'd hoped back when I released it, and I think it might've largely flown under the radar.)
SpardaSon recommended that I play The Mantle, so it's on my list. I think a significant update would be a good excuse to check that off my list, as well as a good excuse for a highlight. :)
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I think the only thing I strictly need to do is package everything together and make sure there aren't compatibility issues. There are some crashes that I haven't been able to isolate, but hopefully that's not game-breaking.
The reason I haven't released yet is that I'd been wanting to complete a couple of other tasks -- setting up wingman profiles, for one, which I'd been putting off because it just seems like it'll be a pain.
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I think the only thing I strictly need to do is package everything together and make sure there aren't compatibility issues. There are some crashes that I haven't been able to isolate, but hopefully that's not game-breaking.
As long as there's nothing game-breaking it's good. :)
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Good point.
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The HOL were filler, but really good filler, like the stiff in twinkies ;)
:v: may have wanted to explore them more and just didn't have time, but it's also possible they were intended as throw away villains that just happened to get more development than planned.
Either way, they make for a wonderful slate for other's to project ideas onto, almost as much as the Shivans.
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Thanks for the replies y'all!
This is about what I figured and I think there's a lot of not necessarily totally unintended implications that :V: made with the HoL but they were happy to leave as much as they did as just that, since the HoL are the secondary antagonists after all. Also FS1 is SHORT.
More to come in the next few months I hope! (probably not hitting that goal of getting something up before the month's over between my living situation, actual stuff I get paid for, and going on vacation the minute September hits)
I am shooting to actually be able to upload stuff when the school year hits, possibly by ramming some of it into a thesis on top of just being a side project. We'll see...
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Also FS1 is SHORT.
Nah, don't think so. I just replayed it and when you're used to be spoiled by INF, JAD etc, it feels LONG. I think FS1 might feel shorter because there's less written text (atleast compared to say, BP)...
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It's the combination of the word count and the average mission time being a little less than 10 mins (though I don't have an accurate number). The word count in BP and even STR definitely gives them more downtime than retail but even FS1 compared to FS2 is short, again with the number of missions and word count. And there's Derelict...
I haven't timed an entire playthrough of FS1 but I don't think it's much more than 6 or 7 hours, if that. That said I know my perspective this last time was skewed a little since I've been playing a lot of Trails in the SKy and was streaming Mass Effect 1.
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The good parts of FS1 go by in a flash while some of the worse filler or generally bad missions(like every single bombing mission or any time you have to protect a stationary target against a single wave that always warps in at the exact same place) drag on forever.
Stuff like First Strike(The worst mission :v: ever made aside from ST which we all pretend never happened anyway) or Where Eagles Dare, or the terrible trio of Enter the Dragon, Playing Judas, and Evangelist.
Every time I go for a replay of FS1 I dread those three missions especially because they're all either mind-numbingly tedious or stupidly frustrating and they're in a row. FS1 would've been a much better game if it was even shorter, if like 30% of the missions were just cut out.
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They should have invented the fiction viewer back than and spend the time on writing stuff that could've set FS1 apart from a somewhat generic space opera like they did later with FS2. I still like the story though; I played FS2 first and reading the tech entries makes the Great War come across much more epic than it actually was in FS1, while I could imagine that "viewing" FS2 through a FS3 techroom it would be impossible to catch the athmosphere closely.
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The good parts of FS1 go by in a flash while some of the worse filler or generally bad missions(like every single bombing mission or any time you have to protect a stationary target against a single wave that always warps in at the exact same place) drag on forever.
Stuff like First Strike(The worst mission :v: ever made aside from ST which we all pretend never happened anyway) or Where Eagles Dare, or the terrible trio of Enter the Dragon, Playing Judas, and Evangelist.
Every time I go for a replay of FS1 I dread those three missions especially because they're all either mind-numbingly tedious or stupidly frustrating and they're in a row. FS1 would've been a much better game if it was even shorter, if like 30% of the missions were just cut out.
I don't mind Enter the Dragon at all, partially because of how quick it goes by, but I agree Playing Judas is tedious, partially because of the way the scanner can freak out. I like the idea behind Playing Judas more than its execution since it does go on too long but the core premise of it is usually enough for me to tough it out.
Again I don't think the core logic behind First Strike is the problem, it's that :v: wanted to make sure everyone had plenty of time to actually bomb the Taranis, leading to the issue of towing it back usually taking way too long.
Evangelist would have benefited greatly from having more fighters in general at a bare minimum, especially seeing the importance the GTA placed on it for whatever reason.
At least with the missions you named, yeah they aren't the greatest from an individual mission design perspective but that wasn't always :v:'s primary concern for better or worse.
They should have invented the fiction viewer back than and spend the time on writing stuff that could've set FS1 apart from a somewhat generic space opera like they did later with FS2. I still like the story though; I played FS2 first and reading the tech entries makes the Great War come across much more epic than it actually was in FS1, while I could imagine that "viewing" FS2 through a FS3 techroom it would be impossible to catch the athmosphere closely.
I don't think :v: had a dedicated writer like they did for ST and FS2 back in FS1 which is why it comes across more bare bones (and them hiring Jason Scott to clean up ST obviously didn't help it much, but was great for FS2). I do still think the way :v: ended FS1 was enough to differentiate it, plus the direction they went after was fantastic, and it's still one of the games that does cosmic horror well in comparison to a lot of things directly cribbing Lovecraft.