[Herra Tohtori]

Like indoctrinated aliens of all races?

Uuuhhhhh.....

[TrashMan]

Like indoctrinated aliens of all races?

Uuuhhhhh.....

Indoctrinated peoples of all races.  Happy now?

[Herra Tohtori]

Like indoctrinated aliens of all races?

Uuuhhhhh.....

Indoctrinated peoples of all races.  Happy now?

I'm not sure what you mean by indoctrinated. Husk representation of different species is quite high already.

The only missing ones are small species like Hanar, Drell, Elcor, Volus, Vorcha, and of course Salarians. They made husks of Human, Turian, Asari, Krogan, Batarian and Rachni origin.

Out of the missing species, Salarians are the only council species and likely the only one with numbers to make any difference. Their homeworld was not invaded so it makes sense to not have husks based on them - Asari husks only appeared after the Ardat-Yakshi monastery was invaded by the Reapers, and Turian husks started appearing on Palaven.


One might make an argument that Elcor husks could have made an appearance after the Reapers invaded their planet, but they already had Brutes and Ravagers, and Elcor husks would have likely been rather similar to either of those two enemies. I think the Vorcha were too primitive for the Reapers to pay any attention to them (same as with the Yahg), and they probably couldn't figure out any use for Volus husks.

Drell husks might have been useful as sort of analogy to the Phantoms from Cerberus, but again Drell have a very small population living on the same planet as Hanar, and I didn't hear anything from that planet being invaded during the game. And Hanar husks would be all sorts of ridiculous anyway.


Point is, the Reaper faction has quite a solid representation in the game, and adding husks of the rest of the species would not have added any substantial variety to that.


Indoctrinated people would make sense if there were populations that were in contact with Reapers or Reaper technology, that somehow managed to not be stomped on by the Reapers or being huskified by the Reapers. By the time of ME3, they are actively invading so odds of finding that kind of situation are sort of low. That made sense in ME1 and ME2, but in ME3, huskified enemies are more likely than merely indoctrinated.

Besides you could make an argument that Cerberus is an indoctrinated human faction, sort of. There's really no similar justification for indoctrinated enemies from other species, but even if there were, what would that accomplish?

Cerberus is a good enemy faction from gameplay perspective. Whether you consider Illusive Man's motives sensible or not is a different matter.

[TrashMan]

Indoctrinated peoples of all races.  Happy now?

I'm not sure what you mean by indoctrinated. Husk representation of different species is quite high already.

I mean INDOCTRINATED. Not huskified.
Like the doctor in Arrival.

Regular people who do the reapers bidding.

That made sense in ME1 and ME2, but in ME3, huskified enemies are more likely than merely indoctrinated.

Not really. Indoctrinated can infiltrate, sabotage and devide and weaken the enemy from within. Husks are not suited for that job.
And didn't Vigil CLEARLY state the reapers used indoctrinated protheans?

Cerberus is a good enemy faction from gameplay perspective. Whether you consider Illusive Man's motives sensible or not is a different matter.

Every opponent is good from a gameplay perspective. Facing a cerberus commando or an Asari commando - an enemy is an enemy.
And no, I can't say I consider anything Bioware did with TIM or Cerberus sensible or good. They wasted them.

[General Battuta]

This thread's getting ****ty.

[Herra Tohtori]

I can think of several reasons why indoctrinating groups of people might be hard for the Reapers to accomplish, or grossly inconvenient compared to just using husks.

The strategic position of Reapers in Mass Effect 3 is vastly different than in the previous cycle against the Protheans. Similarly, the astropolitical environment is not exactly the same as with the Protheans. Protheans had a galactic hegemony going on, while in this cycle there's more of a loose union between the species. This means that while the Council has the supreme authority in Council space, each species still has their own government and the associated bureaucracy; even if the Citadel had fallen, there would be redundant archives of the population; they could keep track of their colonies, and would be extremely suspicious of people who had disappeared for a time, especially if their last known location had been Reaper-occupied system.

Remember that the Protheans did a great service to the current cycle by disarming the citadel's relay functions. Sovereign had to react to that by recruiting Saren, and while they were trying to figure out where Ilos was to gain control of Citadel, they got uncovered and eventually defeated. In the process, the galactic civilization learned a lot of the Reapers and indoctrination, by proxy of Shepard. They may not have believed Shepard, but the information was there nonetheless, and it only got refined during the events of Mass Effect 2 - in which Harbinger's attempts to create another "Inside Reaper" failed, whatever point that would have served. It would have been more effective if the Reapers had just appeared out of dark space at Alpha Relay without ME2 events giving further warning and intelligence..

The Protheans were taken totally by surprise, and by what I interpreted, the Citadel served as the hub for most of their government. They had no forewarning whatsoever, they had no idea what indoctrination was, and therefore it was also a surprise to them that the Reapers could turn their own people against them. By the time of ME3, the effects and dangers of indoctrination are fairly well documented already, although the Batarians' meddling with the Leviathan of Dis belies a staggering ignorance on the matter.


Add to that the fact that Protheans probably had a lot more raw military power than the current cycle, as evidenced by the fact that even with their government taken out in the initial strike to Citadel, they still fought for hundreds of years before their final defeat. The Reapers had a lot of time to try something more sophisticated than just turning everything into husks, whereas in ME3 the conflict is still in its beginning stages - and the Reapers may simply not have seen any need for convoluted operations to capture and indoctrinate people and then re-introduce them back to population as their agents.


I'm not saying that the Reapers couldn't have done that, but I can see why they didn't bother.

[Ravenholme]

Well, they had been meddling with the Leviathan of Dis since before ME1 - so since before Indoctrination was brought to the attention of the Galactic Governments, and by that point, the indoctrinated Batarians probably instigated a huge cover up on exactly what the Leviathan was.

[NGTM-1R]

Well, they had been meddling with the Leviathan of Dis since before ME1 - so since before Indoctrination was brought to the attention of the Galactic Governments, and by that point, the indoctrinated Batarians probably instigated a huge cover up on exactly what the Leviathan was.

Assuming it's a Reaper, which it may not have been.

[General Battuta]

Well, they had been meddling with the Leviathan of Dis since before ME1 - so since before Indoctrination was brought to the attention of the Galactic Governments, and by that point, the indoctrinated Batarians probably instigated a huge cover up on exactly what the Leviathan was.

Assuming it's a Reaper, which it may not have been.

Nah, it's explicitly stated to be a Reaper in one of the side quests.

[NGTM-1R]

Nah, it's explicitly stated to be a Reaper in one of the side quests.

Hmm. Explains why the Batarians fell so fast, maybe, but...

[General Battuta]

Nah, it's explicitly stated to be a Reaper in one of the side quests.

Hmm. Explains why the Batarians fell so fast, maybe, but...

Yeah, the Batarian who explains it says it indoctrinated their entire scientific and military leadership just by proximity. Whoops!

[TrashMan]

By the time of ME3, the effects and dangers of indoctrination are fairly well documented already, although the Batarians' meddling with the Leviathan of Dis belies a staggering ignorance on the matter.

Yeah..kinda not really... Everyone who seesm ot know about the reapers still ends up getting indoctrinated. No one knows how to coutner it.
And having a bunch of "plants" worshiping you like a god inflitrate the resistance, is a valid and effective strategy in any situation.

Add to that the fact that Protheans probably had a lot more raw military power than the current cycle, as evidenced by the fact that even with their government taken out in the initial strike to Citadel, they still fought for hundreds of years before their final defeat.

The galaxy is big. Lots of places to hide. A simple clean-up job where you're hunting down the last stragglers coudl take hunders of years.

[NGTM-1R]

Yeah, the Batarian who explains it says it indoctrinated their entire scientific and military leadership just by proximity. Whoops!

It occurs to me there were better ways to use such an asset then they actually did, though.

[IronBeer]

[tongue firmly in cheek here]

I like Penny Arcade's take on the "leaked" ending:
http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/03/16

[JCDNWarrior]

The Indoctrination Theory on the Bioware forums is extremely compelling to me, to the point that I'm thinking it may very well be true.
In short, the Indoctrination theory suggests that the moment Shepard gets hit by Harbinger's beam (who has been surprisingly quiet in ME3) he enters a hallucinatory state due to blood loss and indoctrination, which is why people noted that various elements of everything happening when on the Citadel is extremely similar to the final events with Saren in ME1.
The Star Child thing represents the kid he saw get blow up in the first mission.
The choice you make represents if you, the player and Shepard are indoctrinated - Control and Synergy being what the Reapers stand for and Destroy the act of resistance.

A Epilogue DLC has it's precedence though, it wouldn't be the first time something similar to this occured. Kinda similar to Fallout 3's Broken Steel.

Link: http://social.bioware.com/forums/forum/1/topic/355/index/9727423

EDIT:

Link2: http://m.fanfiction.net/s/7920772/1/%20theory  Gives basic explanation, better than mine.

First post should have a decent list of things mentioned for quicker reading.

[swashmebuckle]

Have you guys considered everyone comes back to life/was just knocked out?  What about it was all a dream?  Sounds like you're on the right track

[General Battuta]

The Indoctrination Theory on the Bioware forums is extremely compelling to me, to the point that I'm thinking it may very well be true.
In short, the Indoctrination theory suggests that the moment Shepard gets hit by Harbinger's beam (who has been surprisingly quiet in ME3) he enters a hallucinatory state due to blood loss and indoctrination, which is why people noted that various elements of everything happening when on the Citadel is extremely similar to the final events with Saren in ME1.
The Star Child thing represents the kid he saw get blow up in the first mission.
The choice you make represents if you, the player and Shepard are indoctrinated - Control and Synergy being what the Reapers stand for and Destroy the act of resistance.

A Epilogue DLC has it's precedence though, it wouldn't be the first time something similar to this occured. Kinda similar to Fallout 3's Broken Steel.

Link: http://social.bioware.com/forums/forum/1/topic/355/index/9727423

EDIT:

Link2: http://m.fanfiction.net/s/7920772/1/%20theory  Gives basic explanation, better than mine.

First post should have a decent list of things mentioned for quicker reading.

The Indoctrination Theory is bull**** made up by desperate fans. I'll laugh pretty hard if BioWare pretends they intended to do it all along, though.

[Herra Tohtori]

The Indoctrination Theory is bull**** made up by desperate fans. I'll laugh pretty hard if BioWare pretends they intended to do it all along, though.

Well, if Bioware doesn't play along with it, it'll end up as an alternate interpretation of the ending (which makes a lot more sense than taking the ending at face value, especially considering the internal inconsistencies in it).


I'm not so sure that Shepard is being indoctrinated, however. It could be any number of reasons why she's hallucinating, starting from stress, physical trauma, and having some consequences from getting the Beacon shoved into her brain, then dying, getting resurrected and subjected to all sorts of horrifying things.

Or, it could be just a dream. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.


The God Child is really weird though. Not only does no one else but Shepard interact with him, he also makes an appearance in the middle of the Prologue scene where Shepard and Anderson are running on the rooftops - somehow, he made his way to the other side of the building, unassisted, presumably partially through the air ducts in the building. Then he enters a sealed balcony, opens a locked door, and gets inside.

Either that kid is a champion at duct crawling, Bioware dun goofed up again, or he's not real...

[Ace]

Actually a proper, planned, indoctrination ending would have been awesome beyond belief. Combining the dream sequences with the code-like things from Overlord and the Rannoch missions. If you're going to do a 2001 style open ended ending go balls to the walls crazy.

Entering the Conduit and everything becoming strange and abstract while Anderson describes what is really there (you see a dead forest full of corpses and the child, Anderson describes it being like the Collector base) would have worked.

Basically you "move to the light" in the forest, things break down into a mix of Reaper code and citadel corridors, you then meet up with the Illusive man in a room much like the current one, and still do the Star child ending with the kid and the "choices" but hint that all of them but destroy are Reaper traps.

Then just axe the Normandy crashing part of the ending and add monologue voiceovers during the credits of each non-Shep character outlining Shep's impact on the galaxy from the perspective of an unknown period of time in the future.

That way you get the "artsy" ending, while Anderson and the monologues give a reality check and closure. (no monologues for Control/Synthesis endings suggesting that the galaxy is dead and the Reapers win)

[achtung]

Marauder Shields Comics

http://koobismo.deviantart.com/gallery/

I enjoy this more than the actual ending.