Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: ##UnknownPlayer## on November 01, 2002, 09:38:32 pm
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Ok, we all know what the subspace corridors between systems with jump nodes look like. But what I'm wondering is, when you jump out of the area after a mission with your ship - what does that subspace look like? Should I expect it to just be a corridor or should it be something else?
I'm asking this because I'm running an idea around in my head about something that we might want to do with the FS2 Source code project, and this would be an issue with it.
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in-system jumps are nearly instantaneous.
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Yah, you powerup your drives, and go into the little warp thingy, then pop-out somewhere else.
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Sez so in the FS Reference Bible.
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And besides, when you call for reinforcements or resupply they appear instantly. That would be sort of hard to do if you had to transverse subspace instead of making a point-to-point jump.
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Originally posted by Shrike
in-system jumps are nearly instantaneous.
Only for fighters.
The NTCv Belisarius, a Deimos-class corvette, has run our blockade of the Sirius jump node. We are now tracking the vessel through subspace. We have vectored its course to your immediate vicinity.
The Belisarius is already in subspace when that message is sent yet it takes about 15 seconds more for it to arrive near the player.
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Originally posted by karajorma
The Belisarius is already in subspace when that message is sent yet it takes about 15 seconds more for it to arrive near the player.
Was the Belisarius making an in-system jump, or an interstellar one? I can no longer remember :shaking:
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Originally posted by Kazashi
Was the Belisarius making an in-system jump, or an interstellar one? I can no longer remember :shaking:
I'd say insystem.... i don't remember a jumpnode being in the first mission.
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Unless the vessel had already gotten out of the node when command sent the message and jumped again for in-system travel and took 15 seconds for the deimos to arrive at our location.... In that condition then larger vessels would be reduced in subspace travel speed, but not by much. If fighters/bombers are instantaneous and corvettes take 15 seconds then it looks like a good 40-60 seconds for destroyers and juggernauts.
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well, they said that the vessel would come out of subspace momentarily, so they could have vectored it's course while it was powering up jump drives.
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I would say that the larger the vessel, the less instantanious the jump effect is. Also, the distance of the jump effects it. A fighter going from one side of a planet to another would be there instantly, while a fighter going from one side of the system to another would be in subspace a little while.
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If the FS Bible says intrasystem jumps are instantaneous, I'd say it is wrong. That doesn't make any sense. It might be short time, but not instantaneous. It takes fighters some time to get through subspace, just like it did the Deimos.
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Just take the distance between Sol and Delta Serpentis, then some random in system distance and figure it out.
Someone call CP
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It might be just some really short amount of time (i.e. 1/10 of a second) but I also don't think that the fighter drives would be truly instantaneous, as this is not really consistent with the larger ship times.
Just take the distance between Sol and Delta Serpentis, then some random in system distance and figure it out.
Someone call CP
:D Well it seems that the actual positions of the places where the ships warp in/out have little to do with the time required, at least if the nodemap is any indication. (e.g. Alpha Centauri is much closer than DS but it would take much longer to get there using subspace)
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Originally posted by Stunaep
well, they said that the vessel would come out of subspace momentarily, so they could have vectored it's course while it was powering up jump drives.
That would only give them direction and not distance so they still wouldn`t be sure that the Belisarius going.
Even if that isn't true (like there was only one place of interest in that direction) capships don`t actually appear to need to turn before entering subspace. Every time I`ve seen a capship jump out it just jumps in the direction it was last facing.
Lastly there's a 20 second or so delay between the first message and the appearance of the Belisarius. If subspace is instantanious for capships what was the Belisarius doing in that time? Why would they send a message that they are tracking the Belisarius through subspace when it hasn`t even left yet? Surely the message would say that the Belisarius is preparing to jump and for the psamtik to get ready in case it does.
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subspace tracking, first used to destroy the Lucifer, requires you see the ship enter subspace, there fore it can be assumed that the mesage was sent just before the ship entered subspace, now lets say the two points are on oposite ends of the system, and lets say it takes about five\ten seconds for the larger vessle to enter/exit subspace, with a delay of twenty seconds that gives somewere between 10 and 0 seconds for transit time averege that out to 5 for a very long trip across a system, compare that to seven minutes and it is nearly instantainius,
so for implementing in system just into the game I would show the warp model, as soon as the eye point passes through the cull plain of the warpout effect render only the subspace model,
for about a second or two then do the same thing you did for the warpout only when the eye passes the cull plain show the new sceen,
while in subspace load any new data files you may need
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....Actually according to bosian theory, which is probably about the closest thing we have to FS2's subspace thingy...
It's kinda possible to suggest that time travel is viable through subspace...
Besides that point.
Kala, as much as I hate to admit it :P
Has a point, subspace communication isn't instantaneous either is it? if it was then ok, the bel is coming in real time with the communication, but if it takes a few extra seconds for the transmission to get there?
If Inter-System subspace would have to be described, most current theories, and other forms of speculation (Sci-fi O.o) would suggest it would just be the same as normal space, except, with absolutely nothing apart from bosian particles and an energistic representation of the objects you are passing while in subspace...
Hmm, not sure how to give you an idea of what it really looks like though, considering it is all theory, it's normally represented as several red/dark red/purple colours, and can seem like layers of space pealing back, but I don't really think FS went into that much detail about their science :P
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Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Has a point, subspace communication isn't instantaneous either is it? if it was then ok, the bel is coming in real time with the communication, but if it takes a few extra seconds for the transmission to get there?
Communication in FS2 must be instantanious. Command isn`t present yet seems to instantly know what is going on even when you are on a mission millions of miles away from your base.
Another event that fits with subspace not being instantious is the events in Feint, Parry, Ripost. While it should take a while for Koth's ship to leap in (the NTF cruisers would have had to call for help etc) the collossus should have been able to leap in the instant that the Repulse was sighted as it was waiting for the trap to spring. Yet it takes nearly a minute for it to do so.
I guess this makes sense if size makes a difference but distance (within the same gravity well at least) doesn't. Photons travel through subspace instantly, fighters less than a second or two, corvettes 30 seconds or so, the colossus about a minute.
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Bosian theory has two waves, the retrospect and the aspect, the retrospect is a theoretical wave that would travel backwards through time from the point it was originated in, this theorum links time and space....
Particles that could be effected by this retrospect wave, would be able, in theory, to transverse through any point in the space time continumm (providing it's already happened).
According to current science the retrospect doesn't do much, however in theory it could be used to dictate the time at which something would 'arrive' after its 'left', the aspect is a more physical wave that would dictate where the things would arrive, however with current physics models it also dictates the time (because obviously you have to travel through space which takes time so the aspect will control how long it takes to arrive at the vectored exit point), normally the aspect 'controls' and 'covers' the retrospect because aspect waves are much more powerful...
I'll need to re-read some stuff before I can explain it anymore then that...
Sorry, it's been a while....lol
But yes, you're right, for plots sake at least subspace comms must be real time, the point is, if the subspace drives use bosian theory, they could arrive instantaneously, or in a hundred years, and the only difference to the people onboard the said driven ship would be what they noticed when they got out the other side...
....in theory though, it's instantaneous (intersystem) for the people who're in subspace, it's just not so instantaneous for everyone else.....
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From the FSRefBible
Subspace Technology
While travel into subspace is enabled via ship-borne devices (called “subspace engines”, “cores”, or “motivators”), it’s long been known that subspace itself is a naturally-occuring phenomena.
Subspace, for the intents of this document, is an alternate physical plane of space where the normal limits of relativistic physics and travel don’t apply. By entering subspace for a relatively brief period of time, a space vessel can emerge in a location in realspace several star systems away. This technology has allowed the human race to spread across much of the known Galaxy.
There are essentially two modes of subspace travel, inter-system and intra-system.
Intra-system subspace travel is nearly instantaneous, and requires relatively little energy input to enable. Most of the GTA’s advanced fighters are equipped with intra-system jump motivators, allowing them to travel at will within a given star system. There is little or no restriction on the beginning and end points of such a subspace “hop,” except that they be in the same star system.
Inter-system travel via subspace is another matter entirely. The end points of inter-system subspace jumps are limited to the naturally-occuring focal points of subspace, also known as “nodes.” These nodes were initially discovered by Prof. J. Whiteside (see McPherson’s Multipaedia (2557 ed.), pp 1132-1140). Only between two subspace nodes is the fabric of subspace strong enough to support inter-system travel. The defense of the physical locations surrounding such nodes proved to be a central part of the 14-year Terran-Vasudan War.
In addition, such massive amounts of energy input are required to open an inter-system node, that only the largest fusion pile reactors in existence are able to sustain it. As a result, inter-system subspace travel is almost exclusively made by the largest vessels in production. This fact has made the GTA’s Orion-class destroyer/carriers a pivotal and crucial part to the GTA’s tactical forces during the T-V War.
Needless to say, the ability to deliver ships of war to nearly any pinpointed destination has forever revolutionized the concepts and long-standing tenants of space combat.
Pre-FS2, of course.......
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Originally posted by QuantumDelta
....in theory though, it's instantaneous (intersystem) for the people who're in subspace, it's just not so instantaneous for everyone else.....
Makes sense. I thought of it myself when I thought about subspace taking time months ago but I forgot about it when it was time to mention it here :D
It does also fit with what's in the reference bible unless the bible says WHO it's instantanious for :)
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Originally posted by karajorma
Makes sense. I thought of it myself when I thought about subspace taking time months ago but I forgot about it when it was time to mention it here :D
It does also fit with what's in the reference bible unless the bible says WHO it's instantanious for :)
What if inter-system jumps can continue straight into an intrasystem jump?
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Too much energy needed, and it would also not work with the storyline, heh...
In theory (bosian anyway) there's no difference between intersystem and intrasystem apart from a) energy needed and b) the amount of bosian particles needed, you'd also need to accomodate for mass.
What bosian does avoid, however, is gravitation effects, and the limitations of the light barrier considering you're moving in /time/ and not in space, ....which goes against most of the 'more factual' scientific theorums...
uhh, but yeah, it's basically for the plot, heh...
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How's about.... ships can remain in subspace from the more unstable regions between systems and straight into the system's subspace.... but they can't do the inverse (travel intersystem straight from intrasystem) due to the initial power expenditure to enter subspace in a node. That way, you can track ships into intersystem jumps ala the Belisarius, but you can still justify blockading the 'entry' nodes with a fleet (not to mention being able to blockade the 'exit' node would make it fairly easy to defend systems).
OF course, I think the Bearbeating mission may contradict this with the Saths' movement....?
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Nope, it says in a few command briefings in FS1 and 2 "Although Shivans' may have used jump-nodes we don't know about, or nodes too volitile for travel, our scientists garantee that they are as dependant on jump nodes as we are"
I'm just saying the closest RL Science to the jump drive says that it IS possible...just that it takes way too much power to incriment a jump inside a jump...which is what that is O.o
If you think about it like this.
In reality, the theory goes 'You go where you want first time, or you go where you want, then get there then go somewhere else'
in FS 'You can't go where you want, you are constricted, you may not leave the system unless you do so by certain secured tunnels' in reality, those tunnels, are everything.
You wouldn't need nodes....
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Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Nope, it says in a few command briefings in FS1 and 2 "Although Shivans' may have used jump-nodes we don't know about, or nodes too volitile for travel, our scientists garantee that they are as dependant on jump nodes as we are"
I'm just saying the closest RL Science to the jump drive says that it IS possible...just that it takes way too much power to incriment a jump inside a jump...which is what that is O.o
If you think about it like this.
In reality, the theory goes 'You go where you want first time, or you go where you want, then get there then go somewhere else'
in FS 'You can't go where you want, you are constricted, you may not leave the system unless you do so by certain secured tunnels' in reality, those tunnels, are everything.
You wouldn't need nodes....
Stuff sciense... ;7
IMO, it is possible for a capship to continue in subspace after it enters a system...intra-sys jumps are very simple to execture and don;t need much power..... the point is that a jump is possible ANYWHERE subspace is stable enough. Buti's not stable enough between systems to allow, say, staggered jumps to traverse anywhere - so you rely on nodes.
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Nice ;)
Anyway - the reason why it does the 'through the node, then stop, then back into subspace'
See briefing three or four of FS1...
"The Galatea will jump into the system, reset it's co-ordinates and then continue on it's journey to the repair depot at [system]"
It does that in the shell game too, I think, either that or it's that mission I'm on about....errrrzzzztttttt.....*shorts out too much memory access*
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King's Gambit is shows that you MUST exit subspace at a jump node. If you can exit elsewhere why didn`t the NTF jump out in GD in a place that didn`t have GTVA warships and 3 mjolnirs guarding it.
That said if you want to keep your theory for your campaigns Aldo you can always say that GD was a special case cause it had no planets.
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Originally posted by karajorma
King's Gambit is shows that you MUST exit subspace at a jump node. If you can exit elsewhere why didn`t the NTF jump out in GD in a place that didn`t have GTVA warships and 3 mjolnirs guarding it.
That said if you want to keep your theory for your campaigns Aldo you can always say that GD was a special case cause it had no planets.
It's just an idle theory, anyways.....