[AlphaOne]

Umm Aldo again I never said they will start rebuilding they fleets imediatle after the war was over. But i do believe that 3 years of concentrated effort on the part of the GTVA to relocate the refugeez would be more then enough for them to actualy achieve something that is at least adequate.

Also facilities for the training of new crews already exist. They were not lost during the war like it happened during the Great War . Also wo the hell said that the GTVA started from scratch in population terms???

Remember there were more then one desly populaed colonies even during the TV war.

I believe that the population of the GTVA is actualy in the realm of at least 10 bilion citizens.

Oh and regarding the Vasudans:-so it is posible to actualy relocate a large amount of people. Or you are gooing to tell me that the vasudans anticipated the destruction of they homeworld most of theyr  industry and the most important economical hub they had. Regarding the survivors of Vasuda even if 5% of its population was actualy evacuated in time that wound still mean like what 200 milion people??? And dont go aroun telling me that the vasudan actualy happened to have 200 milion jobs houses etc.

The rebuilding of theyr fleets and a knossos device is the most important thing for the GTVA far more important then actualy providing food,jobs,houses etc for 250 milion refugeez. By opening the node to Sol They will have acces to the resources available there.

The Orions-I do believe that most if not all of the Orions that have been preserved would have beam cannons mounted on them since I dont believe they will go around retiring ships without something to replace them. And even if a fleet was composed of nothing more the Leviathans,Fenris and Orions that would still make it a good fleet capable of taking on any modern fleet of the GTVA!

In the end to keep it short the relocating of the refugeez,the rebuilding of theyr depleted fleets and the beginig of the construction of a terran knossos shouldnt take more then 13 years.

[Sarafan]

The rebuilding of theyr fleets and a knossos device is the most important thing for the GTVA far more important then actualy providing food,jobs,houses etc for 250 milion refugeez. By opening the node to Sol They will have acces to the resources available there.

Far from it, if the GTVA did that right away (meaning a couple of years) they would simply have another big problem in their hands since nobody knows what is the situation in Sol.

A nebula would have very interesting economical prospects for the GTVA, due to its sheer size (many lights years in all directions) it would hold many resources (only gas tought) and it would make fueling any ships relatively easy.

[Fragrag]

A rather offtopic note, but AlphaOne, your spelling has drastically improved lately   

And, isn't it rather suicide, opening a gate to species that's already nearly destroyed their civilization twice?

[Sarafan]

And, isn't it rather suicide, opening a gate to species that's already nearly destroyed their civilization twice?

Actually, the GTVA should look for another nebula, the one in Capella and beyond Gamma Drac shouldnt be the only ones, I forgot to write that.

[Black Wolf]

Mission file?

What does Command says in the debrief when you lose the destroyer (either way)?

[V] include a completed mission file with all the stuff from the walkthrough. I searched it with notepad. If you lose the destroyer, the debrief either says
"The loss of the GTD Relentless will cost the alliance a great deal.  We can take some solace in the fact that the NTF did not get ahold of the destroyer."

Or

"Not only do we have one less destroyer today, the NTF has one more.  This is a crushing blow to the alliance."

Depending on whether it's destroyed or captured. And in the messages, all you get is "I can't believe we lost a destroyer.  Damn!  Okay, return to base."

[AlphaOne]

well if you look closely at mi post i said starting to build a knossos device not building one! I believe that they will not finish building the knossos to sol utill they are at full strenght.

Also I never said they have to actualy go looking for the shivans but rather that sooner or later they will run into the shivans again or viceversa.  Either way a nebula would provide a very big economical boost to the GTVA. why?

Because they offer plenti of gas resources to fuel the ship reactors and much much more. I mean it provides the GTVA with rare gasses to fuel just about everithing that uses gas as its fuel.

I imagine it is a lot cheaper then gooing around looking for rare gas deposits or looking for gas gants that have the right combination of gasses. This reminds me if sol has no less then  3 gas giants does this mean fueling or rather gathering fuel for the ships is rather cheap then opesed to what the GTVA curently has??

[Mars]

The majority of planets in the universe are gas giants.

[AlphaOne]

umm and all of the planets in the sitems mentioned on FS are uninhabitable. Regardless that does not answer mi question about the economical values of gas giants and nebulas. If it was that available then the GTVA would not sent almost imediately gas miners to collect gas from the nebula.

[Mars]

Nearly all of the planets and systems mentioned in FS were habitable.

[aldo_14]

well if you look closely at mi post i said starting to build a knossos device not building one! I believe that they will not finish building the knossos to sol utill they are at full strenght.

Er, eh?  That's the most meaningless semantic I've seen.  They still have to pay for the bloody thing.

Also I never said they have to actualy go looking for the shivans but rather that sooner or later they will run into the shivans again or viceversa.  Either way a nebula would provide a very big economical boost to the GTVA. why?

Because they offer plenti of gas resources to fuel the ship reactors and much much more. I mean it provides the GTVA with rare gasses to fuel just about everithing that uses gas as its fuel.

Albiet you have to consider a massive expenditure for that knossos in the first place, aside from the cost of gas miners, etc, and none of that is providing short term relief.

If you're lucky enough to find a nebula, of course.  Which is the real problem.

Because they offer plenti of gas resources to fuel the ship reactors and much much more. I mean it provides the GTVA with rare gasses to fuel just about everithing that uses gas as its fuel.

Er.  Note the 'rare'.  How likely is it they'd hit not just a nebula, but one with rare gases, on the first go?  At least with the Knossos, you can say the Ancients could have built a lot of others, etc.

I imagine it is a lot cheaper then gooing around looking for rare gas deposits or looking for gas gants that have the right combination of gasses. This reminds me if sol has no less then  3 gas giants does this mean fueling or rather gathering fuel for the ships is rather cheap then opesed to what the GTVA curently has??

Cheaper?!

Firstly, as was pointed out, gas giants are rather common.  We've found a few with long-range telescopy, after all.

More importantly, you're talking about building a Knossos.  A gigantic, massively expensive, massively high tech construction.  And you're at the same time completely guessing that it will lead to anywhere useful atall; for all you know it could (and is possibly more statistically likely to) lead to another Gamma Draconis.

This is like the 3rd time I've said this, so just think of this - if you take a drill, poke it in the ground randomly, how likely are you to hit treasure, or oil?

umm and all of the planets in the sitems mentioned on FS are uninhabitable. Regardless that does not answer mi question about the economical values of gas giants and nebulas. If it was that available then the GTVA would not sent almost imediately gas miners to collect gas from the nebula.

It had argon.

That, and it was probably cheaper and easier to do it in the nebula; or perhaps it made more sense logistically, supplying ships with nebular gas rather than a longer chain.  The Colossus had a veritable army of freighters and miners supplying, after all.

[TrashMan]

When you actually think about it the military sounds as a good option for the Capellan refugees.

The GTVA lots' lots of personell and pilots, so there will be a lot of outposts, bases and installations with vacancies.
As for food, a advanced society like GTVA has probably advanced farming techniques. I don't think the food shortage is going to be a problem, and there's a lot of planets where the survivors can be spread over.  250000 per planet is easily handeled - hell if we are to drop that many people in hte US right now it could handle it, let alone a whole advanced planet.

As for the construction of the Orion - I guess it would take roughly as it takes us to build a carrier today - about a year. I doubt it takes more as the rebellion has been going on for 18 months and the rebels have meade heavy use of hte shipyards.

We don' actually know the extent of the losses (Petrach sez half the fleet, but how big was the fleet to begin with? Does he mean total fleet or half the Capella fleet?). We know they are big, but not exactly how big.

I would say 4-5 years and the GTVA would be up and running as usual.

[aldo_14]

When you actually think about it the military sounds as a good option for the Capellan refugees.

The GTVA lots' lots of personell and pilots, so there will be a lot of outposts, bases and installations with vacancies.

Um, millions?  What about regular recruitment - those people surely need accomodation?  Sure, hundreds of thousands died in the battle(s), but that's a drop in the ocean.  And assuming that facilities weren't destroyed by the rebellion.  Why would the military have lots of 'spare' space above the existing personnel?  The dead did tend to die along with their berths, after all.

As for food, a advanced society like GTVA has probably advanced farming techniques. I don't think the food shortage is going to be a problem, and there's a lot of planets where the survivors can be spread over.  250000 per planet is easily handeled - hell if we are to drop that many people in hte US right now it could handle it, let alone a whole advanced planet.

Tell Sudan that.  Or Pakistan (Kashmir).  And these are countries with some degree of external support, whereas the GTVA has no-one.  And lets not ignore those planets affected by the NTF rebellion and ground combat.

And what are you assuming 250,000 per planet upon?  If only 10% were evacuated, that's still 25 million and about 100 inhabitable planets you need.

As for the construction of the Orion - I guess it would take roughly as it takes us to build a carrier today - about a year. I doubt it takes more as the rebellion has been going on for 18 months and the rebels have meade heavy use of hte shipyards.

Um... are carriers not just a tad shorted and less complex than a 2km behemoth?  And what did the rebels actually do with the shipyards, then, because I honestly can't remember anything specified as being built in the period of the NTF rebellion (not forgetting that Bosch could have been preparing years in advance, using his admiralship and fleet command)

We don' actually know the extent of the losses (Petrach sez half the fleet, but how big was the fleet to begin with? Does he mean total fleet or half the Capella fleet?). We know they are big, but not exactly how big.

The context seems quite clear to me, given that multiple fleets were involved in the battle for Capella; if he meant a specific fleet he would surely have said so.  Also, it simply makes less dramatic sense, particularly coupled with military casualty figures in the hundreds of thousands even before the supernova.  Finally, the use of 'Allied fleet' (..pulverized) to me makes it pretty clear it refers to the Galactic Terran Vasudan Alliance forces rather than a specific numbered fleet.

Also, I can't find where you get the 50% figure from in command brief texts.

[Sarafan]

As for food, a advanced society like GTVA has probably advanced farming techniques. I don't think the food shortage is going to be a problem, and there's a lot of planets where the survivors can be spread over.  250000 per planet is easily handeled - hell if we are to drop that many people in hte US right now it could handle it, let alone a whole advanced planet.

Tell Sudan that.  Or Pakistan (Kashmir).  And these are countries with some degree of external support, whereas the GTVA has no-one.  And lets not ignore those planets affected by the NTF rebellion and ground combat.

And what are you assuming 250,000 per planet upon?  If only 10% were evacuated, that's still 25 million and about 100 inhabitable planets you need.

As for the construction of the Orion - I guess it would take roughly as it takes us to build a carrier today - about a year. I doubt it takes more as the rebellion has been going on for 18 months and the rebels have meade heavy use of hte shipyards.

Um... are carriers not just a tad shorted and less complex than a 2km behemoth?  And what did the rebels actually do with the shipyards, then, because I honestly can't remember anything specified as being built in the period of the NTF rebellion (not forgetting that Bosch could have been preparing years in advance, using his admiralship and fleet command)

[/quote]


Sudan and Pakhistan are one thing but this is the GTVA, they're a highly advanced society with advanced technology in possibly all fields, also even with the current technology the agricultural production is incredibly big, the only problem is that due to external pressure the poorer countries are forced to export almost all of what they produced.

About the NTF, let's just guess you're an NTF admiral and the rebellion is going for 18 months, are you just going to leave the shipyards alone and not build anything on them? Not even to replenish your losses? Because if yes, you would've to be extremly skilled to try and win the war.

[Mars]

Also, I can't find where you get the 50% figure from in command brief texts.

...We lost entire squadrons, the Colossus and most of our fleet...

I do agree with you Aldo

[NGTM-1R]

Space is very big, but by the same token it is also mostly worthless. Controlling a sector of space does you no real good, nor your enemy any harm. It's much like the sea in that regard: in and of itself it is valueless. What it gives you access to, however, may be very important.

However, there is a corollary: FS ships are not required to "cruise" through space to reach a destination. They can use intrasystem jumps to reach other places instantly, and without the enemy being able to stop the transit by any means we know of. This means that space in its entirety is worthless from a tactical standpoint. There is no purpose to controlling it and no reason to devote resources to doing so.

These are, essentially, planets/moons (which probably have defenses of their own), installations (also have defenses of their own, but not very impressive ones), jump nodes, convoys, and fighting ships. Against the Shivans you can eliminate planets/moons from your concerns.

Convoys are the most likely to suck up warship resources; they require powerful close escort, because they may not last long enough for reinforcements to arrive if they don't have such escort. FS' approach seems to be to provide a powerful enough escort that reinforcement will likely be unnecessary.

Installations will normally last long enough on their own merits to summon warship and fighter reinforcements to their defence. Nevertheless they also make logical canidates for leaving a warship or two nearby to protect.

Jump nodes are only of importance under specific sets of circumstances; i.e. you actually want to make use of it, or your enemies do. Since there's no way in or out of the system except for jump nodes, this is most of the time, if only to have a secure line of retreat. Nothing quite inspires confidence like the knowledge you can run away if it all goes to hell. Still, the guard forces would not be large, since a jump node really has no intrinsic value; like a door, its value lies in the ablity to provide access. If one side or the other can afford to devote ships to true blockade instead of securing other objectives, they are probably ascendant already.

Finally, the last object of value to be found in space warfare as practiced in FS are its implements themselves: warships. A destroyer, it goes without saying, is a high-value target: destroyers are what power projection is largely based on. They are thus worth defending: worth defending more then FS normally does. Most FS engagements are open-space battles against or in defense of warships that really have no good reason to be there unless they're hiding (or looking for other warships that are hiding). Rather then scattering warships about in ones and twos through empty space, gathering them together in a group would be safer in both the sense of their becoming harder to find (one spot vs. many) and more defensible. It would really be better, too, for the destroyer to join a one of the subgroups if all its escorts are commited to other tasks.

(The nebula may be a special case, since, probably many LY across, it may not have been possible to cross it in a single jump. A sweep through it would serve a purpose then.)

[Sarafan]

Space is very big, but by the same token it is also mostly worthless. Controlling a sector of space does you no real good, nor your enemy any harm. It's much like the sea in that regard: in and of itself it is valueless. What it gives you access to, however, may be very important.

However, there is a corollary: FS ships are not required to "cruise" through space to reach a destination. They can use intrasystem jumps to reach other places instantly, and without the enemy being able to stop the transit by any means we know of. This means that space in its entirety is worthless from a tactical standpoint. There is no purpose to controlling it and no reason to devote resources to doing so.

Jump nodes are only of importance under specific sets of circumstances; i.e. you actually want to make use of it, or your enemies do. Since there's no way in or out of the system except for jump nodes, this is most of the time, if only to have a secure line of retreat. Nothing quite inspires confidence like the knowledge you can run away if it all goes to hell. Still, the guard forces would not be large, since a jump node really has no intrinsic value; like a door, its value lies in the ablity to provide access. If one side or the other can afford to devote ships to true blockade instead of securing other objectives, they are probably ascendant already.

Impressive, ngtm1r. But fighting the shivans wouldnt add a more important role to jump nodes (to blockade and secure them) since that what the shivans since are interested in? Plus, a nebula would a far more dangerous combat ground to be in since sensor range and coverage are severely hampered (like fighting blind). And the GTVA has acquired the ability to track ships trough subspace and yes, they cannot stop it but knowing what and where the enemy forces are going allows the defence of a system to be far more easy, you just deploy your fleet assets (its warships) to where it will be needed.

And knowing is half the battle, like G.I Joe says.

[Nuclear1]

When you actually think about it the military sounds as a good option for the Capellan refugees.

The GTVA lots' lots of personell and pilots, so there will be a lot of outposts, bases and installations with vacancies.

Um, millions?  What about regular recruitment - those people surely need accomodation?  Sure, hundreds of thousands died in the battle(s), but that's a drop in the ocean.  And assuming that facilities weren't destroyed by the rebellion.  Why would the military have lots of 'spare' space above the existing personnel?  The dead did tend to die along with their berths, after all.

The GTVA usually wouldn't evacuate a military installation unless it was almost sure that it would be lost. Civilian stations would likely be fully evacuated to avoid unnecessary civilians casualties, but it would make sense for the GTVA to fight tooth and nail for major military installations and shipyards that the Shivans or NTF had attempted to take. Enif, for example, was evacuated of its civilian complement, but, even under heavy beam fire, the GTVA fought to preserve the station with its military personnel onboard. 3rd Fleet HQ, on the other hand, was fully evacuated because the GTVA was sure that it would have to be lost.

250000 per planet is easily handeled - hell if we are to drop that many people in hte US right now it could handle it, let alone a whole advanced planet.

I'd love to know where you get the estimates for both of these statements. If the Earth at present can hold six billion people, what's to say that fringe planets wouldn't be able to hold at least several million Capellans? Forget the core systems, as they're likely full. That's a primary reason why the GTVA would have had to colonize other planets--the realization that living space would eventually run out.

The same goes for the US. You can't simply double the population of the United States and expect it to just work out. That's hundreds of millions of refugees that had to abandon most of their possessions and means and are suddenly dropped into a country where there is already overcrowding in a number of major cities and not a whole lot of habitable room elsewhere. Not to mention that the government would have to work out billions of dollars to relocate, settle, and provide for nearly double the current population, sending millions more into poverty.

You can't simply make these assumptions without evidence. As technoligically advanced as both the GTVA and US are, that doesn't change the fact that living room eventually just runs out.

[AlphaOne]

I seriously doubt that the GTVA does not have any spare room to acomodate its civilians. Also where on earth did u get the 250 milion figure ?? He said 250.000.

Also Aldo what on earth are you on about regarding the shipyards and destruction of most milatary facilities?? Are you joking?? Can you honestly tell me that most of the GTVA milatary facilities were destroyed? come on they lost one or 2 arcadias but that is a long way away form saing that it lost most of its facilities.

Oh and give it a rest with the whole economical stuff cuz it doesn apply here. You are talking 21'st century tech applied to 24'th century tech. That makes a lot of sence!

Also you should be more then aware of the fact that when a civilization is faced with the posibility of extinction or severe defeat by whatever means you want to apply they tend to...how shall I put this....be more willing to endure severe hardship.

Hell even gouverments tend to put the people through misery in the short term if that would bring them long term benefits instead.

If you want an example regarding sacrifices and gouverment solution just look at the roman empire who actualy decreased the amount of silver in its coins in order to have more silver to pay for the army and weapons and other stuff like that.

[aldo_14]

250 million is the canon population of Capella, stated at the point where they began evacuation prior to destroying the Knossos.

I didn't say most military facilities (not that I recall anyways), but it stands to reason some would be destroyed.  And you'd need to rebuild facilities, and pay for that rebuilding, before you could put people in them.  And then you'd need more facilities than present, say, pre-NTF, because you'd be massively recruiting over-and-above the expected and normal rates.  And then you'd need to pay all those people for years to sit on their bums, because you don't have the ships built yet.  Now, I doubt the GTVA military budget is designed for charitable purposes.

You can't reinvent economics to use effective magic just because it's set 300 years in the future.  If anything, that's a tacti acknowledgement it doesn't make economic sense by any contemporary measure.   Why not just decide the GTVA finds a money tree forest growing on the 2nd planet of Ross 128?

There's also a difference between severe hardship and lethal famine.  And the Roman coin example is completely meaningless because one of the prevailing theories is that this was due to a materials shortage to make the coins; which makes it a scarceley relevant example unless GTVA currency is made out of starship hullmeatal and argon.  And even then the Roman empire continually suffered from drainage due to importing from elsewhere.   And currency devaluation is at best a mixed tactic; just look at hyperinflation in 1930s Germany, for example.

Not to mention you were having a go at the use of 21st century analogies, and then bringing up a ~200BC one!

[AlphaOne]

Well while a I do agree with you regarding some destroyed milatary instalation they would far few then you think. For the simple reason that the GTVA would go to great lenghts to actualy capture those that were in the hands of the NTF and if there were any significant milatary facilities such as shipyards and stuff like that in Capella then those would represent the majority of what it was lont in terms of industrial equipment.

Also regarding the coins of the Roman empire they actualy were involved in some bloody fighting for soo long they almost bankrupt(sp?)  the empire. That is till they actualy won the bloody war.

Also I do beleieve that with a society as advanced as the GTVA food would be the last concern on they minds. For all we know they could eat milatary rations if nothing else showes up.
However  I do believe that a more serious problem for the refugees would be to actualy provide them with jobs in a very short time frame.

Oh and regarding the milatary costs and other stuff like that involved in the actual training of the new milatary forces that would be an acceptable cost. why? well because the GTVA has a massive short supply of marines,fighter pilots, trained crews for its warships,trained crews for its instalations also we have auxiliari personell for the warships and fighters etc. This would be a rather big task for the GTVA i mean to find enough people as to adequately replace most of its lost personell.

Again At least some of the capellan refugees would make more then good candidates for these jobs. Even if 100.000 people get a job in the milatary that is 100.000 less people you have to worry about not getting proper food ar clothing or housing. They actualy work for what they get such as food clothing money etc.

Also I do beleieve that the GTVA would try and keep at least for a while a strong milatary presence in the former NTF controlled sistems. That could in theory soak up another 500.000 people at least.

I do know that the milatary does have a limited budget but if they could afford to pay the crews of the warships pilots etc etc during the war they can sue as hell afford to pay for lets say 50% of those people now after the war.