[Mars]

There's no canon evidence that the Mentu has a good reactor. Just cause it's Vasudan, doesn't mean that it has a good reactor, just like the Orion, just cause it's Terran doesn't mean it has a good anti-fighter screen. On the piracy, how exactly do these pirates get the technology to be any kind of threat to the GTVA?

[Sarafan]

Even a old Herc can be a threat if the pilot is good.

Now, really, they can raid a military depot or anything to steal weapons, ships and supplies, they wouldnt get nothing top of the line but they would still get something.

On the vasudan reactors, you're right, but a combined effort by the GTVA could turn out a more deadly Aelous, something like a Aelous MK2.

[aldo_14]

Using the same vasudan reactor technology used on the Deimos would supply a cruiser with enough energy to support those kind of weapons.

That would seem rather a huge assumption, given the overall inadequacy of Vasudan cruisers.

The problem with vasudan cruisers is the placement of the weapons and the Mentu is a strange case since the techroom states that its a effective ship and ingame it doesnt have beam canons.

Well, ingame also makes it clear the GTVA intends to discontinue the cruiser class, in turn implying that it is financially and militarily preferable, in favour of the corvette.  Ergo, if you make the Mentu canonically effective, then logic indicates that it is advantageous to replace cruisers with corvettes.

Why do people always assume there will be loads of pirate fighters?  Where would they launch from?  How would they get military grade technology to threaten, say, a simple fighter escort wing?

And on other things, how do we know it's all that quicker to make a cruiser?  Are there still orbital shipyards, or will they not surely now all be setup for the supercedent Deimos (etc) class?   Also, to refer to an earlier comment, why are we comparing cruisers-to-corvette costs on a 1-to-1 basis?

After the second great war, with the meager GTVA forces spread thin trying to cover all of its territory and with the economy already beginning to slide, its a perfect opportunity for piracy. Since a cruiser is smaller, requires less resources and crew its pretty clear its faster to be built. On the cost, I guess that you can make 2 Aelous with the price of a Deimos.

[/quote]

How many pirates are likely to have military grade warships?  How many do, ooh, in Somalia (the worlds hotspot).  None; they all use rubber dinghies.  Where do all these pirate ships come from?  What makes them a threat any more than said Somalian pirates do, to the military?  Is every civillian convoy or ship going to need a cruiser escort?

What makes these supposed pirates so dangerous that, say 4 fighters - the escort seen in the very first mission as adequate within a warzone - can't handle it?  Why do we want to give escort duties to the slowest member of the convoy, anyways?

Even a old Herc can be a threat if the pilot is good.

Now, really, they can raid a military depot or anything to steal weapons, ships and supplies, they wouldnt get nothing top of the line but they would still get something.

On the vasudan reactors, you're right, but a combined effort by the GTVA could turn out a more deadly Aelous, something like a Aelous MK2.

So in the aftermath of a rebellion, the GTVA is going to leave its military supplies wide open for the equivalent of a dinghy to hop into and steal?

And if we're going onto Aeolus Mk.2 or whatever, aren't we entering into the tract of trying to build a corvette-in-all-but dimensions?  R&D isn't free or instant, is it?

[Sarafan]

Where does it show ingame that the GTVA intends to retire the cruiser class? Just that phrase that says ''the foundation of tomorrow's fleet'' doesnt mean its going to retire a whole class of cruiser. Canoncally, on the FS2 demo, a Aelous managed to take down a shivan cruiser, a shivan corvette and numerous fighter and bombers wings at the same time that it was protecting a convoy. Just that shows its a incredible warship.

The GTVA took severe losses to its fleets, it cant possibly hope to protect everywhere in an effective  manner and that includes its depots. On a black market, a bigger pirate band with enough money can easily acquire these ships, its not going to be everyone that can get their hands on millitary grade stuff, just the pirates with enough power.

By a Aelous MK.2, I meant to equip it with more better systems not remake it completely to a corvette size vessel.

[Mars]

It doesn't just say foundation of tomarrows fleet, it also says

"As the Leviathan and Fenris cruisers of the Great War are gradually phased out, these corvettes will become the foundation of tomorrow's fleet."

also throughout the game, cruisers were mentioned continually as being inferior, shown to be easily destroyed, the Oberon is mentioned as being a decommissioned cruiser, and at the same time are mentioned as fufiling about the same position in the fleet:

...it can be just as vital as taking down a cruiser or corvette...

also they are shown in game as fufilling the same role, nearly every cruiser in the game (most of which a good player will never see because they jump in when a corvette is destroyed) is there to provide beam support.

[Sarafan]

It doesn't just say foundation of tomarrows fleet, it also says

"As the Leviathan and Fenris cruisers of the Great War are gradually phased out, these corvettes will become the foundation of tomorrow's fleet."

also throughout the game, cruisers were mentioned continually as being inferior, shown to be easily destroyed, the Oberon is mentioned as being a decommissioned cruiser, and at the same time are mentioned as fufiling about the same position in the fleet:

...it can be just as vital as taking down a cruiser or corvette...

also they are shown in game as fufilling the same role, nearly every cruiser in the game (most of which a good player will never see because they jump in when a corvette is destroyed) is there to provide beam support.

...it can be just as vital as taking down a cruiser or corvette..., this also means a cruiser is a vital part of the fleet even now. The Leviathan and Fenris are being retired, the Oberon is a good example of this, but because every newer ships is better than they are and there is the newer cruisers to replace them.

[Mars]

No, all it means are that cruisers are still being used, not that they are making new ones

[AlphaOne]

It would be even a greater burden for the GTVA to try and replace all of its cruisers (the remaining ones at least with corvettes. Why simpli because you must consider the value of the ship its crew and they wages the cost of suplying that ship with fuel food and whatever that thing needs. And when you think about such a ship guarding a meager remote depot or patroling some backwater sistem its pretty bad. This is a good way to bleed money from an already limited fund.

Instead you want cruisers for this job. Also when you have some very important transports gooing through a hot spot like Polaris or Regulus you dont just escort them with a single fighter wing.

Also when are they suposed to build at least 2 dozen corvettes?? remember they need a fas mobile weapons platform which is cheap versatile and deadly. And while the Deimos is pretty much all of these and more you must consider the costs of building them and building them fast enough and the actual crew complements which we all agree are rather limited. It simpli is not fesable especialy in the foloing year or so after Capella when you have your hands full with relocating refugees and improving the infrastructure etc to handle an adtitional 200+ milion refugees. These are the figures the majority of the people over here agreed that were evactuated.

So from mi pojnt of view Cruisers will be around for a long long while. And new classes will most definetly be introduced to replace the aging Fenathan.

[Mars]

I would assume there are already quite a number of Deimos corvettes completed or in the making (more than 2 dozen). It seems unlikely there are many shipyards equiped to make cruisers anymore, so realise that that is a likely cost for the cruisers as well. I'm not saying that the GTVA isn't going to keep using cruisers for a while, I'm saying that they are going to stop using cruisers as soon as they possibley can.

As for the crew, a cruiser probably has about 3,000 crew members whereas a corvette has 6,000, it seems like the cruiser would be cheaper, but the difference is the cruiser has 3,000 people who are likely going to die, along with their ship, and the corvette has 6,000 people who have a good chance of coming back in one peice

Where is your proof that they intend to introduce another cruiser to replace Fenathans, I see no evidence of that in your post.

[Sarafan]

No, all it means are that cruisers are still being used, not that they are making new ones

They're not making any new Leviathan, Fenris or Aten, because they have corvettes and they're now producing the Mentus and Aelous, the Aelous is a somewhat of a guess, even if the techroom describes it as a failure, ingame you can see that its used by the NTF and GTVA making it clear that there are more then 24 ships wich shows there must have been a second or even third production run.

3.000 people on a cruiser? No way, really, theres no such space on a cruiser to fit so many people.

[Mars]

Those cruisers are slightly smaller than a Nimitz class carrier which has a crew complement of 5,680

The tech room description makes it clear that 24 Aeolus's were made, not that they were all owned by the GTVA. So yeah, there were 24 Aeoli, and now there are, what 3?

[AlphaOne]

Actualy it says that by the time the NTF rebelion started there were 24 of them in service with production beeing halted about 1 year before if i remember corectly.

I fail to see the mortal danger in guarding a backwater station or sistem or a supply depot. Also how many times have we seen what underestimating the power of a warship does to you. the Aeouli is aside from its shivan counterpart by far the bet cruiser ever seen in the game.

I still dont get it why it is described as a failure?? Also how may times did corvettes had to have theyr arses bailed out by cruisers. Just because we see more cruisers taken down its because the enemy would tend to pick off the smaller targets in order to exploit weakneses or tactical advantages.

But the cruisers performed admirably. And lets not forget that wuite a few corvettes were lost in the NTF and GTVA-Shivan war. So i dont believe there are that many around. But i do agree that at least 6-12 of them would of been completed in most regards just not readdy to roll out of the production lines.

To produce some new class of cruiser would seem anly logical or at least improve on the existing Aeouli design.

also i dont believe that a shipyard is not able to switch production from one ship class to another in arelative short amount of time.

[Sarafan]

Those cruisers are slightly smaller than a Nimitz class carrier which has a crew complement of 5,680

The tech room description makes it clear that 24 Aeolus's were made, not that they were all owned by the GTVA. So yeah, there were 24 Aeoli, and now there are, what 3?

The GTVA must have (or already has) enough technology to allow far much less people to operate a cruiser, 3.000 are just way too much. Like AlphaOne said, with the losses on both wars, how many Deimos there were before and how many do you think there are now?

[Mars]

Actualy it says that by the time the NTF rebelion started there were 24 of them in service with production beeing halted about 1 year before if i remember corectly.

The GTC Aeolus is the first cruiser class ever produced by the RNI shipyards orbiting Laramis II. Only two dozen of these cruisers were put into service in GTVA fleets, with production ending in 2365. Allied Command assigns Aeolus-class ships primarily to guard slow-moving convoys against fighter and bomber wings, as these cruisers are severely out-gunned by most capital ships in service today. Their flak and AAA turrets serve as marvelous deterrents to smaller craft, however.

Which still leaves room for the NTF to have capture a number of them.

I fail to see the mortal danger in guarding a backwater station or sistem or a supply depot. Also how many times have we seen what underestimating the power of a warship does to you. the Aeouli is aside from its shivan counterpart by far the bet cruiser ever seen in the game.

The mortal danger apparently comes from these pirate wings you keep talking about: although my thought is that it wouldn't be a problem, and the GTVA just wants warships to fight Shivans again. Just because it is one of the best cruisers in the game doesn't make it worth it, because, as stated already, cruisers are being abadoned in favor of corvettes, thats why it's a failure, because it's a cruiser.

I still dont get it why it is described as a failure?? Also how may times did corvettes had to have theyr arses bailed out by cruisers. Just because we see more cruisers taken down its because the enemy would tend to pick off the smaller targets in order to exploit weakneses or tactical advantages.

Because it's a cruiser, and cruisers aren't that good anymore. How many times did corvettes get bailed by cruisers? None that I saw in the main camapgin, maybe you could reference a specific mission?

But the cruisers performed admirably. And lets not forget that wuite a few corvettes were lost in the NTF and GTVA-Shivan war. So i dont believe there are that many around. But i do agree that at least 6-12 of them would of been completed in most regards just not readdy to roll out of the production lines.

Cruisers are far easier to destroy than corvettes, even an Aeolus could fall prey to a few wings of bombers, whereas a corvette could shrug them off. Considering that 24 is considered a small production run I'd say there are far more corvettes than that left.

To produce some new class of cruiser would seem anly logical or at least improve on the existing Aeouli design.

Tell me WHY it's logical, your not backing any of this up.

also i dont believe that a shipyard is not able to switch production from one ship class to another in arelative short amount of time.

I agree, that's why I'm saying that cruisers would be more expensive than they're worth, because there'd be a need to refit all the shipyards to produce them.

The GTVA must have (or already has) enough technology to allow far much less people to operate a cruiser, 3.000 are just way too much. Like AlphaOne said, with the losses on both wars, how many Deimos there were before and how many do you think there are now?

So tell me why you think that, and while your at it tell me why it takes 10,000 people to operate a destroyer, or 30,000 to operate the Colossus. It is also canonical that t takes 6,000 to operate a corvette (from A Lion at the Door), I don't have a problem with it taking 3,000 people to operate a cruiser.

[Ghostavo]

TBH 3000 people in a cruiser seems a bit much... 1500-2000 would be my estimate.

The only cruiser who I can see carrying that kind of crew is the mentu. It seems to have more volume than any other cruiser.

[Sarafan]

You need 10.000 people on a destroyer because it serves not just as the main ship of a fleet but it has numerous fighter wings so a good part (at the very least a 1/3) of those people are pilots and personnel to support the fighters (technicians, etc).
 

quote from Mars:
Because it's a cruiser, and cruisers aren't that good anymore. How many times did corvettes get bailed by cruisers? None that I saw in the main camapgin, maybe you could reference a specific mission?
end quote.

quote from myself:
 Canoncally, on the FS2 demo, a Aelous managed to take down a shivan cruiser, a shivan corvette and numerous fighter and bombers wings at the same time that it was protecting a convoy. Just that shows its a incredible warship.
end quote.

Who says all GTVA shipyards are producing just corvettes? Theres no evidence to that.

[AlphaOne]

I nevre said anything about mortal danger from the pirates as far as i can remember.

[Mars]

TBH 3000 people in a cruiser seems a bit much... 1500-2000 would be my estimate.

The only cruiser who I can see carrying that kind of crew is the mentu. It seems to have more volume than any other cruiser.

I'm willing to go with that, although remember, Zods are bigger than humans, if only slightly, so that might factor into the Mentu's crew capacity

You need 10.000 people on a destroyer because it serves not just as the main ship of a fleet but it has numerous fighter wings so a good part (at the very least a 1/3) of those people are pilots and personnel to support the fighters (technicians, etc).

Yeah, but the Sobek has more people per meter in length preportionantly

Canoncally, on the FS2 demo, a Aelous managed to take down a shivan cruiser, a shivan corvette and numerous fighter and bombers wings at the same time that it was protecting a convoy. Just that shows its a incredible warship.

It took out a Rakshasa, not a corvette, every time I've played the demo, the Moloch nails the Adament. Actually I've saved it before, but that's cause I'm Alpha 1

Who says all GTVA shipyards are producing just corvettes? Theres no evidence to that.

Becase there is canon evidence the GTN is mothballing their cruisers.

[Sarafan]

Most of the time when I played the Aelous always took out both ships, really (actually this is one of my favorite missions and one of the best I've seen). The GTN is only mothballing its older cruisers. I didnt understand what you said with the Sobek.

[Mars]

Most of the time when I played the Aelous always took out both ships, really (actually this is one of my favorite missions and one of the best I've seen). The GTN is only mothballing its older cruisers.

Did you play the original demo or the port that was released a while ago? The port had a few changes, and I noticed the Adament survived much more often. That's one of my all time favorite missions too, I just always wished it was a little longer / more detailed.

I didnt understand what you said with the Sobek.

My point was the Sobek has a much denser crew size than either the Orion or Hecate or Colossus, and that that wasn't consistant with your theory the size of the crew for the Orion had to do with its fighterbay.