[DefCynodont119]

My self ban to avoid arguing with Goober over the need to close churches in the middle of a pandemic expired guys! I'm back what's going on!!

Oh

I was moving at the time of the original thread's events (I was the thread's OP) and if I had not have been lurking via my flip-phone I would have missed this entire thing.



Like, imagine making a thread in PD/GD, then leaving for two weeks only to come back to see that the thread derailed so bad, that the forum is covered with train debris. . .

It's like being a butterfly looking down over a tornado's aftermath and wondering if they were responsible in some way. . .

[MP-Ryan]

Absolutely, 100%, beyond a reasonable doubt NOT your fault, Def

[Grizzly]

Mp-Ryan, I will point out that the position that you and everyone else has stated as something that was unacceptable and will not be tolerated is also something that Goober has specifically avoided apologizing for.

[qazwsx]

Mp-Ryan, I will point out that the position that you and everyone else has stated as something that was unacceptable and will not be tolerated is also something that Goober has specifically avoided apologizing for.

This expresses my frustrations with goober's apology very succinctly. It feels like he's apologised for misinterpreting another moderator/admin but hasn't for the action that caused the escalation in the first place.

[MP-Ryan]

And you are all welcome to express your frustrations with that apology.  It is his to defend and explain, if he chooses.

[karajorma]

My two cents: Ignoring the fact that normal users can't do everything he did, I expect that if it was a random schmo at the center of this instead they would have at minimum had a long ban from PD/GD, and possibly just been banned outright. I understand the tension that comes from wanting to keep core contributors to the community, but that level of double standard is distressing to me.

It's not a double standard if you'd be equally accomodating to the random schmo. If you look down the list at how long it took us to finally ban people like High Max, Iamzack, etc you could make the argument that we are actually far too accomodating before we finally ban someone. In those cases we put up with them being a disruption for months or sometimes years, even when they didn't contribute much else to the community.

Arguing that we're not banning Goober just because he's an admin is rather missing the point that the only reason this wasn't resolved with a simple thread lock is precisely because he's an admin. Normal users would have just gotten a finger wagging and maybe a warning. Goober is being held to a higher standard. If you don't feel that standard is high enough, that's another matter. And you're more than welcome to argue that it should be higher.

[EatThePath]

I'll concede the point, as on reflection my familiarity with how forum discipline is currently conducted in general is rather low.

[karajorma]

It's okay. I simply picked your post as an example of a feeling I've seen from a lot of users that we ban as soon as someone breaks the rules. While that might have been the case in the distant past, it's not been true for many years. I have no problem with people thinking we've been too lenient on Goober, I just don't like people thinking that it's because of favouritism. We're pretty lenient in general these days.

[Goober5000]

And to clarify, I do not intend to bring legal action against anyone.  A description that something "is grounds for legal action" is not the same as a threat to actually take that action.

Then why bring it up in the first place? The first response you had to a post you found offensive was to demand it be removed with the stated reason that it was "grounds for legal action". Who was going to bring legal action against the website except you? Do you realize why everyone else in that thread, several people of whom were HLP staff, interpreted it as a threat? What I'm noticing from your apology is that you do apologize for what happened after MP-Ryan prudently locked the thread, but not for your actions that lead to the escalation of that thread in the first place.

I meant it in the sense of "this is a damn serious thing you just wrote".  And I really wish that people would recognize the seriousness of it.

It is not escalation to defend oneself against very serious personal attacks.  On the contrary, the people doing the escalation were the ones launching personal attacks.

I'm extremely concerned that as a justification for your actions you pointed towards the moderation policies of Gab, a website known for its far-right userbase.

This isn't what happened at all.  Gab refused to remove the posts in question.  Gab's host forced Gab to remove them.

I, personally and speaking outside my role as moderator, don't think that this apology suffices. Why? Because this is, verbatim, what you posted in response to mjn:

This is defamation and libel, which is grounds for legal action.  Retract it.

You had several options in responding to mjn's post. One would be to ignore it as a piece of hyperbole. Another would be to report it to let other moderators take a look. Yet another would be, regardless of how improper it would have been for you to do so, to point to the forum rules and say that this strays close to questionable conduct. Had you taken any of these options, this matter would not have blown up as much as it did.

As I said in the internal, in the past, I was specifically told by the staff to attempt to negotiate first.  That is precisely what I did.

This is not any different than telling someone to remove warez links because posting them is illegal.

[BlueFlames]

Contrition is for chumps.  Always double-down.

[karajorma]

This isn't what happened at all.  Gab refused to remove the posts in question.  Gab's host forced Gab to remove them.

So, in other words, this would not be a problem for HLP unless someone reported the website you are an admin for, over a defamatory comment about you, and the company that hosts HLP decided to force us to remove the post over your own protests that they shouldn't interfere with HLP?

Do you see why people might have had a problem with that defence? It's another perceived threat, but this time, against not just Mjn but the site as a whole.

[Grizzly]

6.  Goober5000 will be separately posting an apology to the community regarding his actions in particular.

Alright, looks like this isn't happening. What's plan B?

[General Battuta]

I suppose it's been pointed out more than once that the decisions of software companies are not laws and have no standing as 'precedent' for anything, yes?

I'm absolutely going to ban myself for another few months aren't I

[General Battuta]

While we're invigilating Gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 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oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooober's various sins I would like to complain, in an opportunistic and long post facto way, about the inconsistent way in which HLP's "we don't edit/delete posts" rule has been applied by moderators and administrators. I have broken it enthusiastically and often but that's probably why I am not a mod any more. To wit, herefore and so forth, et ceteribus, my complaint is: is the word 'cunnilingus' so obscene that it needs to be edited out of posts? I made the rhetorical point once that if Junior Junior could post some Buzzfeed top ten on how to kill people with a handgun, it seemed like it would be equally acceptable to post cunnilingus tips, since consensual sex is ideally less taboo than killing people even in self defense. Note that I did not actually post any cunnilingus tips (put broccoli in your cheeks for better texture). This polemic masterstroke was arbitrarily and high-handedly erased. Do we erase posts or don't we? I get that sometimes it's necessary to remove an obscenity, but in what world is the phrase 'cunnilingus tips' more obscene than somebody's failure drill?

I would also like to advance that Goober does not like Sir Mixalot because Sir Mixalot is

Spoiler:

from Seattle

[Grizzly]

Karajorma, I highly recommend that you move past the discussions you presumably already had with Goober internally. Goober's justifications do not matter, what matters is that he still thinks his actions were justified, and refuses to apologize for them.

[The E]

As I said in the internal, in the past, I was specifically told by the staff to attempt to negotiate first.  That is precisely what I did.

Why, in the everburning fires of hell, did you think that threatening people with lawsuits is even in the same general area as "attempting to negotiate"?

This is such a monumental confusion of ideas that words fail me.

You said, in your apology post, that

And to clarify, I do not intend to bring legal action against anyone.  A description that something "is grounds for legal action" is not the same as a threat to actually take that action.

I will keep hammering you on this: For you to even believe that is, to me, evidence that you do not understand the implications that your posts can take on when they have that little "Administrator" tag under your name. Regardless of your intent, the mere fact of the matter that what you posted clearly reads as an implied threat and that you did not clarify your intentions when called out on it paints a clear enough picture. You had a chance, in that thread, to defuse this ****ing thing. You had a chance to back down. You chose not to. You chose to take actions that made this whole mess worse. When called to apologize after a protracted internal discussion, you chose to post something that did not sufficiently address the issue under discussion.

Forum moderation is, in many ways, an area where "policing by consent" is an important concept, and as it should be clear by the hundreds of posts in this and the other threads, you have lost that consent through your choices. In fact, going by at least some people here, the compromise that was worked out threatens the consent between the moderation staff and the forum as a whole. Draw your own conclusions from that.

[MP-Ryan]

my complaint is: is the word 'cunnilingus' so obscene that it needs to be edited out of posts?

Um, no?  When did this occur?  EDIT:  six years ago?!?!  Okay, look, if someone has a grievance older than my daughter (who is 6), in the words of her favorite song:  let it go, let it gooo...  Yes, I realize Lorric did it first but come on man.

AFAIK the only words that would ever be removed [recently, anyway] would be bigoted epithets (racist/homophobic language, generally speaking).  If someone doesn't want to see 'naughty' words, they can turn on their own language filter.  We might have something to say about it if someone starts writing up graphic sex act fanfiction or using HLP as their test ground for graphic erotica, but otherwise...

...Seth, do not make me regret answering this question.

[qazwsx]

And you are all welcome to express your frustrations with that apology.  It is his to defend and explain, if he chooses.

Part of the deal was that goober would apologise for his actions. He's failing to live up to his side of it and is going to walk away from this compromise without ever having to admit fault for threatening to sue users.

[JSRNerdo]

I, personally and speaking outside my role as moderator, don't think that this apology suffices. Why? Because this is, verbatim, what you posted in response to mjn:

This is defamation and libel, which is grounds for legal action.  Retract it.

You had several options in responding to mjn's post. One would be to ignore it as a piece of hyperbole. Another would be to report it to let other moderators take a look. Yet another would be, regardless of how improper it would have been for you to do so, to point to the forum rules and say that this strays close to questionable conduct. Had you taken any of these options, this matter would not have blown up as much as it did.

As I said in the internal, in the past, I was specifically told by the staff to attempt to negotiate first.  That is precisely what I did.

This is not any different than telling someone to remove warez links because posting them is illegal.

That's not negotiating. That's a threat. You are an administrator of the forums, engaged in a political discussion with other users, a situation where you are explicitly disallowed from throwing your weight around as an administrator. And yet you still tell a user to remove a post with the implicit threat of legal action and/or moderation action, despite both being clearly invalid. If you were told to negotiate first before, and this is your idea of negotiation, and you still delete the thread anyway, and you still refuse to apologize or accept any responsibility, then please, for the love of all that is good, resign.

[Grizzly]

...Seth, do not make me regret answering this question.

Is "white supremacist" a bigoted epiteth?