[Mobius]

honest question have you read anything i've said in here

I did, and replied to you. I then stopped reading the following discussions because, IMO, they're light years away from the atmosphere we're trying to (re)establish on the forums. I don't think most of the recent toxic "debates" on the channel named hlp_squad actually represent this community.

In fact, I've just silenced the channel and I'll pretend it doesn't exist unless it's absolutely necessary (there are situations where that channel is useful). I can still read its content but at least I will not receive notifications unless I'm tagged.

[Grizzly]

Do you have autism, nightmare?

[The E]

So some weirdo saying "the nazis were actually socialist!!!" is more offensive to you than somebody using severe diseases for personal attacks?

More immediately and clearly ban-worthy, certainly. Anyone trying to argue along those lines has left the path of reasonable discussion long ago and is likely out to troll, therefore consequences will happen faster.

And yes, on a personal level: ahistoric stupidity like that is more offensive to me than any slur anyone wants to throw my way.

[Grizzly]

I always was under the impression that claiming the nazis to be left wing was simply a ploy for the far right to whitewash their particular ideology. Richard Spencer is a huge fan.

[Nightmare]

Do you have autism, nightmare?

Do I need to have to to argue about it being an insult? Probably not.

So some weirdo saying "the nazis were actually socialist!!!" is more offensive to you than somebody using severe diseases for personal attacks?

More immediately and clearly ban-worthy, certainly. Anyone trying to argue along those lines has left the path of reasonable discussion long ago and is likely out to troll, therefore consequences will happen faster.

And yes, on a personal level: ahistoric stupidity like that is more offensive to me than any slur anyone wants to throw my way.

Well I think there's nothing to add about it.

[General Battuta]

Do you have autism, nightmare?

Do I need to have to to argue about it being an insult? Probably not.

How do you suggest autistic people describe autistic people? You're telling a bunch of people with autism that they can't talk about autism.

[General Battuta]

Like the thing you're calling a slur is an autistic person saying it's bad for him to make fun of another autistic person for social awkwardness, so he won't do it. That's...the opposite of an insult. It's an attempt to not be insulting.

You just leapt to conclusions.

[Rhymes]

I always was under the impression that claiming the nazis to be left wing was simply a ploy for the far right to whitewash their particular ideology. Richard Spencer is a huge fan.

And you would be correct. I don't think The E has anything to apologize for by not being willing to entertain that kind of horse****.

[Grizzly]

Do I need to have to to argue about it being an insult? Probably not.

If autism is an insult, I've been insulted by mental health professionals for the past 20 years.

[Grizzly]

Like the thing you're calling a slur is an autistic person saying it's bad for him to make fun of another autistic person for social awkwardness, so he won't do it. That's...the opposite of an insult. It's an attempt to not be insulting.

GB stepping in with the words I should use.

[Mobius]

If anything, that channel seems to have calmed down. Nightmare has apparently solved the issue the unexpected way. Bravo.

[Grizzly]

... What issue? He just started bickering on here rather then the discord, sidestepping the apology PH had made right there.

[Mito [PL]]

Now, I will try to be calm and civilised here but I can't guarantee I'll be able to fully force myself to adhere to this, therefore I want to pre-emptively apologise to anyone I might end up accidentally attacking here.

Firstly, just like in the case of recent Goober related trashcan fire, the fact of the perpetrator apologising (yes I KNOW) won't magically undo an underlying issue with the moderation.

Secondly, while I also have my own personal gripes with The E (mostly on political grounds, and yes, I'm trying to distance myself from these as much as I can), I just need to ask everyone (including The E himself): do you think The E's moderation standards have changed over the course of the last couple years?

[MP-Ryan]

For the love of all that's ****ing holy, can you guys all calm down for five goddamn minutes before I quite seriously round up the remaining moderators and admins and get group consensus to put everyone in time out for a week?  I mean, it works with my kids, and you guys are behaving as such.

Enough with the concern trolling.  PH is a member of the marginalized group, clarified what he meant in real time, and while I (and the other moderators) don't necessarily condone the initial phrasing it's nothing to action right now.  I swear, I've been hanging around here for nearly 15 years and some of you who are grown-ass adults are behaving like pre-teens.  Cut the **** out, all of you.

[Mongoose]

Hi, Other Mod here as requested.  I'm not a Discord mod, so it's not my place to say how things should be handled there.  Personally speaking I'm not exactly comfortable with that term being used in that way, given the frequent cruel intentions behind it...but at the same time I am not autistic myself, and I don't feel qualified to tell someone who is how that term should be used.  Just in this thread we have two members on the autism spectrum who have differing opinions about its use--and that's a good thing, because those are discussions worth having!--so it's clearly not a black-and-white issue.  I don't think PhantomHoover meant the term in a patently-offensive manner, and he's already apologized for its use and said he won't do so in the future, so from where I'm sitting I don't see any further action as being necessary.

Edit: Ryan snuck this in before me, so also what he said...somewhat more colorfully.

[Nightmare]

For the love of all that's ****ing holy, can you guys all calm down for five goddamn minutes before I quite seriously round up the remaining moderators and admins and get group consensus to put everyone in time out for a week?  I mean, it works with my kids, and you guys are behaving as such.

Enough with the concern trolling.  PH is a member of the marginalized group, clarified what he meant in real time, and while I (and the other moderators) don't necessarily condone the initial phrasing it's nothing to action right now.  I swear, I've been hanging around here for nearly 15 years and some of you who are grown-ass adults are behaving like pre-teens.  Cut the **** out, all of you.

I know I've been suspicious doing this for the sake of causing more drama. However, I did not ping The E to check "hmmm, lets see if he does what I want". I pinged @Moderator. I wasn't obviously the first person to disagree with this kind of moderation as it is not my thread.

In particular disappointent of you, MP-Ryan. During the slapfight before Goober got de-admined I called the entire HLP staff "retarded"; you responded by PMing me on the forum, despite me insulting you too you only informed me (I wasn't really aware of that, I thought it was just another insult) that it would make feel people with handicaps (which are among the community) feel bad. I edited my post accordingly myself and you seemed pretty fine with that. Apparently you quitted that stance.

[General Battuta]

What is your problem with autistic people saying it's wrong to make fun of other autistic people for being socially awkward? What about that do you find offensive?

[General Battuta]

Also I hope you've registered that two HLP mods have told you to drop it.

[MP-Ryan]

There's a pretty significant contextual difference between someone throwing out a term like 'retarded' as a synonym for 'bad/'ridiculous'/etc (whether intended as a pejorative or not) in the fairly permanent text of the forum versus a transient post by a member of a [marginalized] group who rapidly clarified he was not insulting the autistic community (of which he is a part).

Context is important.  Like I said, I don't love the way it was used but it's nothing worthy of a formal moderation action (which I incidentally can't do on Discord because I'm not a moderator there!) and it's definitely not worthy of three pages and counting of posts in Site Support.  You'll note you didn't actually receive a formal warning either, but rather a simple request to edit with no other harm done or judgement cast.

[Grizzly]

In particular disappointent of you, MP-Ryan. During the slapfight before Goober got de-admined I called the entire HLP staff "retarded";

Well there's your problem. Redarded and autistic aren't the same words.

Autism spectrum disorder is used in the mental health practice today: It's the accurate diagnosis as of DSMV, now called Autism Spectrum Disorder as a catch-all term for what we previously called Autistic disorder, aspergers and PDD-NOS. It turns out that these diagnosis were vague and overlapping before, so it got simplified. And although language in psychology changes, I suspect autism as a term is here to stay: Effort has instead been put into making people understand the multi-faceted aspects of autism more. Autistic people refer to themselves as autists all the time, and often consider it a point of pride. Several members of this forum and of the discord have autism, and iirc even people in higher positions of power.

Retarded doesn't really have the same connotations. It flatly used to refer to people with an IQ below 70 who couldn't function normal in society. Before autism was recognized as a seperate thing, autistic people were just treated as "retarded". It's in part why the term "high-functioning autism" used to exist (high-functioning refers to having an IQ above 70) before the term was entirely decoupled from any level of intelligence. Retarded as a term has been entirely phased out.

Don't even get me started on Max Verstappen calling one of his fellow drivers a "mongol" a week ago, if you want the perfect intersection between ableism and terms that were considered racist even in the 60s.

In summerary: These words are not equivalent becuase autism as a term is part of the current track of increased understanding and empathy in mental health care. Retarded is from a previous, more cruel era.

I realize I'm operating on a hunch now here, but Nightmare, if you say that you didn't know how offensive retarded was as a term until it was pointed out to you, chances are that you might also be ignorant about other terms. I very much doubt that MP-Ryan has walked away from other stances, he's just more knowledgable then you about the language that's used wrt mental health.

Also autism speaks is a terrible organization and should be destroyed.