[Thrilla]

LOL!  I don't think Haliburton does ADA work.  They need a better system than the one they have planned right now.  It is almost a waste, but I guess their thinking is a little protection is better than none.  Like a station having Watchdog Sentry Guns around it.

[aldo_14]

The placebo strategy isn't exactly the sanest method of defence, though.

[Gank]

Originally posted by Thrilla
You have to stablize the region now, so you won't have a breeding ground for terrorist.  

And this is the right way to do that

[Flipside]

Now all they need to do is change their ID badges to different colours depending on whether they are Sunni or Shiite, and they can give people little gold stars for every terrorist they hand on!

[Thrilla]

maybe and maybe not, but they have to try something different.  I'm not saying this DEFINATELY going to work, but it is worth a shot.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Thrilla
Well you could also argue that for the past 30 years these are the same people that have been living under a man that if you disagreed with him publicly that you would be put in prison and shot.  And that firmness and fear is the only thing these people understand.  It's not my opinion, but it is something to think about.

I think it is something worth trying.  Nothing else hasn't worked yet, and maybe giving them something to do and a little money in their pocket might actually help.  I honestly don't believe in this winning hearts and minds non-sense.  You simply can't.  Look at Vietnam.  In 10 years they hadn't complished hardly anything.  I don't think we should be there personally, but since Dubya has gone up and overthrown Saddam we can't just leave anytime soon unfortunately.  You have to stablize the region now, so you won't have a breeding ground for terrorist.  It's funny how politicians are so easily to commit our forces to causes sometimes without thinking about how it affects the men, but then again we volunteered for it.  

Even if it does work - which I doubt - what happens when the troops leave?  Unless the Iraqi government continues the same strategy, then you run a massive risk of ending up with the same situation as post-Saddam.

The whole strategy of 'hearts and minds' is actually the soundest thing that could be done not only in Iraq, but in this much vaunted 'war on terror'; you can't hope to have acceptance from a people who hate you.  Musharraf was spot on.  I mean, it's not working because the strategy is screwed up; the principle is simple & pretty much sound.

NB: it's always easier to start wars when you don't fight in them.  Such is the curse of politicians.....

[Thrilla]

Originally posted by aldo_14




NB: it's always easier to start wars when you don't fight in them.  Such is the curse of politicians.....

Tell me about it.  My unit just got back from Germany last May and is redeploying to Iraq next Fall.  Sounds like fun.  At least I get to see the world.  

[vyper]

[q[not English people.[/q]

I could hurt you badly right now. *points to location* S-c-o-t-l-a-n-d

Nevertheless, point taken.

As for the details Gank, I think that merely reinforces the point that Israel as a nation was born of some very questionable actions - therefore attempting to take a moral highground is not the best plan for the Isralies.

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Thrilla


Yes these abuses are wrong without a doubt.  These soldiers are definately in the wrong and shouldn't have done it, but to say they are no better than the Iraqi fighters is a little far IMHO.  I bet your actions would be a little different if your brothers were shot and killed or severly wounded and you track one down I bet in a fit of rage you would do the same thing.  I don't doubt I'd probably would in the same situation.  I don't sympathize with them and they DEFINATELY shouldn't have done it, but I do understand that it happens sometimes and it should be brought to everyone's attention.  The American Army and the Marine Corp doesn't condone this kind of action and ANY soldier/s and/or marine/s that is caught peforming these actions will be taken care of.  You read UCMJ, it isn't very nice to violators.  

They are trained soldiers who know the rules of engagement. In war you know that your comrade in arms could die. That's why it's called war. That's no excuse. It makes them no better then the terrorists.

Sure, you can be pissed. But trained soldiers should focus their anger towards the Iraqi resistance that is still actice instead of beating up chained people who aren't even proven to be part of any extremist faction. And even if they are, a trained soldier should know better.

I don't think it's going to far to claim that they are no better the terrorists because they too just ignore international law and the rules of engagement.

I know you almost think the same, but I disagree with you saying that claiming this is going to far.

[vyper]

Somehow I'm glad I'm not "seeing the world" dude

[Thrilla]

Understandable...I've been through that training.  Unfortunately it doesn't deal much with ROE once you get down to the Spc -PV1.  You get a few classes on it, but I honestly think it is not enough.

[aldo_14]

Of course, the secondary issue is; is or was this policy?  That was a key thing in the Abu Ghraib scandal, and also with Guantanamo and IIRc the 'exporting' of suspects to countries with, shall we say, somewhat more relaxed policies on torture.

If it's an individual group, it's still reprehensible.  But if this is condoned or simply ignored by superior officers, then it's a humanitarian crime.  And the thing that occurs to me is, how many of these occurances will go unpunished simply because they are unpublicised?  What goes on behind closed doors?

And if I'm asking that, then you can bet that there are people out there in the Muslim world particularly who have already drawn their conclusions and made up their justification for the next suicide bombing or kidnapping.  And that, I think, is the reason why this is such a massive problem.

EDIT; crikey, that was a meandering comment.

[Rictor]

Wait people, are we even readin the same thing?

We're talking about depriving people of essential liberties, so that the occupation forces can better fight people the citizens find preferable anyway. What's this talk of working/not working? Whats the goal anyway? Stability? Forget it. Free elections? Yeah, they'll be real free with a hundred and forty thousand foreign troops around. Winning "hearts and minds"? That boat sailed long ago.

This plan is treating Iraqi citizens as if though they were property. And what I'm hearing is that you don't actually disagree with that, only the specific plan that is to imposed on the property. Simple fact is, the US has no right to do this. I mean, for ****'s sake, ID badges! Forced labour under military supervision! You can considers it a good idea or a bad idea or whatever you damn well please, but imposing absurd rules and restrictions in the liberties of Iraqis smacks of tyranny.

The US rebeled because Britain decide to tax their ****ing tea, and now all of a sudden this is considered acceptable behaviour? Mandatory badges!? Everyone agrees that the US can't just pull out now, becuase bla bla bla oh it would be a massacre. Yeah, well simply put, t'aint your decision to make. Right now Allawi and puppet regime provide an ounce of legitimacy, cause oh yeah, they're fighting the big bad terrorists right alongside the US. Quick question: who do you think that most Iraqis consider a bigger threat, the US or the insurgency?

What has happened is that one dictatorship has been replaced with another, and how likely do you think this is to change after the January elections? Do you honestly believe that we'll see a government that reflects the wishes of 95% of the Iraqi people and that will tell the US to get lost? Uh huh, right.

My problem is not with the policies (well, them too) but with the presumption that the US has the right to impose those policies.

/rant

[Rictor]

isn't it Raytheon?

If Martin (Canadian PM) signs on the missle shield I'm getting together an angry mob and going to trash Parliment. The opposition among Canadians is almost universal, but the Liberals are, as always, trying to be everything to everyone. They've got a minority government, so they have to deal with 3 other parties. The Conservatives, the second largest, are pro-US and therefore pro-Star Wars. The Bloc and NDP are against it, which means that its down to which side of the fence the Liberals decide to lean towards.

[Thrilla]

Originally posted by aldo_14
Of course, the secondary issue is; is or was this policy?  That was a key thing in the Abu Ghraib scandal, and also with Guantanamo and IIRc the 'exporting' of suspects to countries with, shall we say, somewhat more relaxed policies on torture.

If it's an individual group, it's still reprehensible.  But if this is condoned or simply ignored by superior officers, then it's a humanitarian crime.  And the thing that occurs to me is, how many of these occurances will go unpunished simply because they are unpublicised?  What goes on behind closed doors?

And if I'm asking that, then you can bet that there are people out there in the Muslim world particularly who have already drawn their conclusions and made up their justification for the next suicide bombing or kidnapping.  And that, I think, is the reason why this is such a massive problem.

EDIT; crikey, that was a meandering comment.

I highly doubt it was policy.  There are too many people with too good of careers to just waste them on something like that.  I don't think it is likely that higher up officers would have condoned or ignored these abuses or perhaps even given the order.  Those who got arrested for it can shout "I was ordered to do it!"  a millions times over, but under UCMJ any order that is unlawful under UCMJ or the Geneva Convention should not be followed.  I don't think any of the abuses went any higher than Platoon Leaders or maybe with a slight chance the Company Commander.

[aldo_14]

Working = (basically what the article quoted as the aim) The insurgents don't get back in Falluja, there's no more security problems, and the Fallujans fall in step behind the American forces because they are the 'biggest and baddest tribe'.  Thus, the insurgency ends through lack of support and free elections occur.

(aye, right)

Anyways, point is not that I expect it to work, but that if this did occur, the methods would be monumentally ****ed up and so only lead to future problems.

[Thrilla]

Yea, it would most likely be Raytheon.

[Thrilla]

it's called martial law.

[Flipside]

Where's Sheridan when we need him?

Sorry, couldn't resist

[Thrilla]

You mean Sherman?