Author Topic: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion  (Read 22582 times)

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Offline m!m

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
I completely agree. Just saying that there's no need for any dependency on any specific art assets at all unless we want there to be one. Which I think we don't.
I agree as long as the implementation is kept as simple as possible given that not too many users will use it.

Could we split this discussion into another topic? Speeding up Index buffer generation doesn't have much in common with creating a new settings UI :p

Finally, the number one rule of FSO is "don't break retail" for a reason. That reason is backwards-compatibility. Backwards-compatibility is something we're not going to throw out the window just because you, personally, don't see the point of using some options with retail data. This has come up before, so I'll just link to some old posts that sum it up.
I don't think anyone mentioned breaking compatibility with retail. We are just considering not adding a feature to a purely retail installation.

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
I don't think anyone mentioned breaking compatibility with retail.
I think you're needlessly shackling yourself to retail.

What is the point of even using retail assets in FSO?  There's the FS2 executable already.  As I said, most of the FSO changes are there to support new and upgraded assets anyways.  What exactly does FSO bring to retail?

Some things have been mentioned such as 3d radar and rearm timer.  That's not retail assets.  If that can be put in while running"retail" what is wrong with slipping a new options screen in?
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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
You could always put stuff like assets for UI upgrades into MV_Root and have a clearer separation between the graphically-intensive parts of the MVPs and the minor upgrades.
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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
So you think that people using retail assets shouldn't be allowed to, say, enable 3D radar? Or framebuffer shockwaves? That people with retail assets shouldn't be allowed to enable the rearm/repair completion timer?

Yes, so long as the assets required to enable these things are kept lightweight and able to run on any computer that can run FSO.
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Offline BirdofPrey

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
Well it was mentioned why not fix or add to the settings screen to get rid of the need for a bunch of flags and someone said, "because retail"

Maybe my choice of wording and examples was flawed.  I am not saying don't give us the option to run retail assets, I am asking what these FSO options even have to do with retail.  If we go down the list of flags in order presented to the launcher, the first few options are to remove maps and effects not even present in the retail assets.  You haven't demonstrated why moving these into a menu would break retail compatibility.  Maybe some stuff that can be applied to retail would be unavailable, but that doesn't actually break anything.

Aside from that, moving stuff into an in-game menu doesn't preclude the option of still allowing another method for changing those settings.

You're far too worried about breaking retail assets that you haven't noticed the times where it doesn't apply.
I say you are needlessly shackling yourself to retail, because it's causing you to invent problems.

I also am not seeing why having new stock assets for the UI harms anything either.  It SHOULDNT alter the gameplay at all, shouldn't affect the missions , the gameplay, models, sound, etc.  I would also suggest even if the UI back end were to get changed, it should still appear to the end user to be the same menus aside from the necessary changes to make it work better with FSO (ie. it should appear to be retail, much the same way as having moved to OpenGL as the renderer moves away from retail in the backend, but is mostly transparent to the user).  Again, I fail to see how this breaks retail assets and compatibility.  If the reason for running retail assets is limits to computing power, then the basic UI assets need to be based around those constraints (and MVPs can go for something better if needed).  If it's because you want the genuine FS2 retail experience, command line options need not apply anyways, and it makes no difference WHERE the options are.


Could we split this discussion into another topic? Speeding up Index buffer generation doesn't have much in common with creating a new settings UI :p
Agreed.

You could always put stuff like assets for UI upgrades into MV_Root and have a clearer separation between the graphically-intensive parts of the MVPs and the minor upgrades.
That's what I personally think should happen.
If a UI update is done to support the new FSO options, add it to a root VP file that is lightweight enough to run anything that can run retail assets and make it part of the core FSO install, and have it loaded by default (with the option to disable it and use the stock UI)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 06:07:31 am by BirdofPrey »
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Offline BirdofPrey

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
A post missed the split

Maybe some stuff that can be applied to retail would be unavailable, but that doesn't actually break anything.
So you think that people using retail assets shouldn't be allowed to, say, enable 3D radar? Or framebuffer shockwaves? That people with retail assets shouldn't be allowed to enable the rearm/repair completion timer?

I would actually like to echo mjn's earlier comments
There is no way I'll believe anyone who insists that dual scan lines or flash upon warp are game breaking to the user experience. I just don't buy it. The biggest argument for users is 3D radar and maybe rearm timer... possibly 3D warp, but I'm not sold on that. Models for ship/weapon selection? That one I absolutely believe should be modder choice (and to an extent already is if the modder doesn't make icons).

Also, I already mentioned a fallback CAN be kept, but since there are some commandline options that don't apply (disable x) or are probably better elsewhere anyways (most of the HUD options and models for ship/weapon selection are probably better reserved for tables), the commandline flags can at least get some weeding.

I also still don't think missing the options breaks compatibility.
I also can't help but thing you;re continuously suggesting, play retail, but not really.
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Offline chief1983

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
I think there is a solution on both sides here.  If an html/svg solution could be devised that alows any mod to seamlessly pick and choose to replace any existing legacy menu interface with a new one, and the behaviors are compatible, then a new options menu could theoretically be written with a very simple embedded-into-the-exe setup for retail, but could be overridden by either the legacy menu style or a newer prettier html/svg replacement.  Is that feasible?  I think the tiny embedded new style would be, not sure about supporting a legacy version that requires image assets.
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Offline m!m

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
For retail we could use wmcgui as The E mentioned. It would be quite ugly but functional and wouldn't require any image assets. If a mod wants to replace the interface it could use scripting and HTML. In any other case the old UI would be used.

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
For retail we could use wmcgui as The E mentioned. It would be quite ugly but functional and wouldn't require any image assets. If a mod wants to replace the interface it could use scripting and HTML. In any other case the old UI would be used.

Could it be possible to also implement a system to allow themes for the F3 lab and this new settings menu?  Not to create the themes, but just to put in the framework so the FSU team can crack at making it pretty later?  And if the theme assets aren't available, it will fall back on the generic menus instead.

 

Offline m!m

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
Possible? Yes. Advisable? No. The wmcgui system is already quite a mess and adding themes to it will only make it worse. If the FSU team wants to make it pretty they should use HTML as that is actually designed to create user interfaces and has all the necessary features.

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
Hmm, then would it be better to come out with a generic HTML menu / lab without graphical content, but supporting later prettification?

In other words, if it's a mess, should it be switched to HTML now and be done with it (as you can always add the graphics later)?



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Offline m!m

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
A generic HTML template for modders would be nice but given that some of these options also affect retail the settings menu should also be available without adding further assets. This can be done using the existing rendering mechanics of FSO but extending those to support different themes would be quite a lot of work without any real advantage as HTML will be used by most other mods as it can be freely extended without being restricted by FSO.

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
A generic HTML template for modders would be nice but given that some of these options also affect retail the settings menu should also be available without adding further assets.

Hmm.  How about having the HTML menu use the retail menu screen assets for its own retail-only mode's settings UI (thus making an HTML driven retail clone, preserving retail compatibility), + (as mentioned in a post previously) an extra button tacked on to the retail-only mode's settings UI for all of the extra options (that would probably never be used because the user is running retail assets only, but, hey, just in case).

 

Offline The E

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
If you knew how FS2's menu system works, you'd know how hilariously infeasible this is.

Look, jr2, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but please try to remember that if a solution seems really simple and we haven't used or discussed it, chances are that it's not as simple as you might think it is.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 09:03:05 am by The E »
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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
I really think that if creating a UI that can gracefully degrade if it isn't supplied with interface art is going to be any significant stumbling block, you should just drop it and make the art a requirement to be able to use the extended menus. If you're using retail assets then you have the same functionality as retail, and if you want the fancy options you can install the assets for them.
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Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
Good gravy.. there are clearly individuals involved in this conversation that do not have a clear understanding of retail FS interface assets and how FS puts them on the screen...
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Offline chief1983

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
1.  Not all the 'options' that FSO supports require extended art assets.  Please stop assuming that all command line options only affect MediaVP users.  It's not true.

2.  As klunky as the F3 lab or wmcgui code has been stated to be, extended it to be any prettier is not likely to happen.  I wouldn't keep suggesting it unless you plan on implementing it yourself.

3.  The already-prototyped HTML interface shows promise to actually work and be completely customizable by any mod.  That is likely going to be the recommended path for making changes to any existing or future menus for all future mods, although nothing should stop them from replacing any existing menus with their own assets.  But since that's such a PITA, I don't expect future mods to do that when HTML is so much easier.

4.  That leaves only one question left:  how to add an options menu that retail users could use, because believe it or not, there are perfectly valid reasons for using FSO with retail assets.  It would not be a pretty menu, but it would be better than command line options via the launcher, assuming we can even figure out how to make command line options changeable on the fly, since many might currently rely on being set during engine startup and have unpredictable results when toggled later.  The options we can safely toggle in-game will hopefully be configurable via a bare-bones menu in retail, either via wmcgui, or a minimal text-only HTML interface that can easily be embedded in the engine.  Either one would ideally be able to be overridden just like any retail menu using a full HTML setup with image assets.

So, really, the only question left is whether to use embedded HTML or the wmcgui or whatever existing framework for the barebones menu.  It's been putted around for some time, and since no one has done the wmcgui implementation, my money is on us adding it via embedded HTML after that framework is in the engine for replacing existing menus.

I am all for cleaning up command line flags though.  <troll>I don't see why we still have ship choice and weapon choice 3d.  They automatically enable for a mod that doesn't provide icons for a given ship or weapon regardless of the setting, and if a mod does provide art assets, why are you using the ugly 3d renders instead of the pretty artwork?</troll>
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Offline m!m

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
So, really, the only question left is whether to use embedded HTML or the wmcgui or whatever existing framework for the barebones menu.  It's been putted around for some time, and since no one has done the wmcgui implementation, my money is on us adding it via embedded HTML after that framework is in the engine for replacing existing menus.
For the barebones menu I would suggest using wmcgui. The people who can't run MVP assets will probably also be affected by the increased memory usage of chromium running in FSO and if no HTML rendering is required the chromium subsystem will not be initialized.

 

Offline chief1983

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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
Hmm, I wasn't even considering that people might be running it because of memory limitations, and I didn't think that the Chromium engine really took up all that much memory for rendering.  But a valid point.
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Re: Ingame UI for commandline settings discussion
4.  That leaves only one question left:  how to add an options menu that retail users could use, because believe it or not, there are perfectly valid reasons for using FSO with retail assets.

I broadly disagree. There are obviously people who can't run the MediaVPs because of system limitations — I was one of them myself for years — but that doesn't mean they can't install a small pack of assets to enable some new features that they already need to install the FSO executable and launcher to use.
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