Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Vretsu on May 31, 2008, 11:35:40 pm
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In Bosch's third monologue, Bosch states that the nebula may be "billions" of light-years from Earth.
Later I, again for the first time, noticed an ingame command briefing (also the same image seen on the console screen in Bosch's first monologue) with a line stretching out from the Gamma Draconis knossos "node" and vanishing into infinity.
The nebula could be extragalactic. Perhaps the Knossos portals are not merely for bridging unstable intergalactic (IE system to system) nodes. It is mentioned frequently in Fs1 that the ancients' empire spanned multiple galaxies. Perhaps the Knossos portals were somehow created to bridge these galaxies.
I've never thought about it like that, before. Your thoughts?
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It's possible, but we'll never really know...
[nitpick]The line stretching to infinity doesn't prove anything, since even a short node would look like that compared to the scale of a Knossos. Also, intergalactic means 'between galaxies', system to system is called 'intragalactic'.[/nitpick]
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Bosch also states it happened to explode 8000 years ago, when humans emerged from their neolithic infancy.
If it was "billions" of light years away, the light wouldn't have reached them unless it exploded billions of years before 8000 years ago, making it impossible for it to be an ancients world...
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But I think Bosch was speaking more figuratively/poetic in that monologue than throwing out true fact. He does that kind of thing.
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The nebula is the remnant of a supernova thousands if not billions of light years from Earth and I wonder now if our ancestors witnessed the death of this star erupting over an Egyptian landscape, blazing with the brilliance of four hundred million suns. Even in their divinity no pharaoh could have imagined this.
So basically Bosch is pretty supposing it's between 4000 and "billions" of years ago. Also, I think "four hundred million suns" would pretty much vaporize any human life on that side of the earth. Maybe that's what happened to the Dinosaurs. :p
Either Bosch is speaking figuratively, or he should never be let near anything that involves math. Bosch faels at quantitative approximation.
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He's trying to be poetic.
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Current astronomers talk like that too. When they say 'that star exploded 8000 years ago', they mean 'the light of the explosion of that star reached us 8000 years ago'. Otherwise, most people wouldn't understand, I guess.
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Bosch also states it happened to explode 8000 years ago, when humans emerged from their neolithic infancy.
If it was "billions" of light years away, the light wouldn't have reached them unless it exploded billions of years before 8000 years ago, making it impossible for it to be an ancients world...
What makes you think the light had reached them yet?
IIRC there was nothing that said that the nebula could be seen from any of the familiar systems
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The system belonged to the Ancients. I've got a plan for it :p
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Is there a name given for this Nebula ? I mean is it the ORion Nebula, the Horsehead Nebula or something similar. Or do you just know it´s in another Galaxy ?
By the Way...Bosch does Drugs, so you can´t take for serious, what he´s talking about... :D
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[nitpick]The line stretching to infinity doesn't prove anything, since even a short node would look like that compared to the scale of a Knossos. Also, intergalactic means 'between galaxies', system to system is called 'intragalactic'.[/nitpick]
:lol:
A classic example of stupidity through nitpicking!
Intergalactic means between galaxies, indeed, but Vretsu said extragalactic for a very good reason. If the nebula itself was intergalactic, then it would imply that the entire nebula stretched in-between (inter) two galaxies. That's got to be one ****ing big nebula. Extragalactic just means outside our galaxy, so it could be in the Andromeda galaxy or something. Vretsu was right in the first place.
Is there a name given for this Nebula ? I mean is it the ORion Nebula, the Horsehead Nebula or something similar. Or do you just know it´s in another Galaxy ?
Most people say that it was either the Lupus Nebula or the Crab Nebula. The Crab Nebula is an interesting candidate because our calculations show that the star shouldn't have exploded when it did because it didn't have enough mass at the time.
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Most people say that it was either the Lupus Nebula or the Crab Nebula.
Take a look at this Map...
(http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/4552/milkywaypr1.th.jpg) (http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=milkywaypr1.jpg)
Distance Sol - Lupus ~ 500 LY
Distance Sol - Crap (M1) ~ 6500LY
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Most people say that it was either the Lupus Nebula or the Crab Nebula. The Crab Nebula is an interesting candidate because our calculations show that the star shouldn't have exploded when it did because it didn't have enough mass at the time.
The Ancients forgot to disable the Cain.
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Most people say that it was either the Lupus Nebula or the Crab Nebula. The Crab Nebula is an interesting candidate because our calculations show that the star shouldn't have exploded when it did because it didn't have enough mass at the time.
The Ancients forgot to disable the Cain.
:wakka:
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Most people say that it was either the Lupus Nebula or the Crab Nebula. The Crab Nebula is an interesting candidate because our calculations show that the star shouldn't have exploded when it did because it didn't have enough mass at the time.
The Ancients forgot to disable the Cain.
:wakka:
DAMN ! THERE GO MY PLANS !...
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Distance Sol - Crap (M1) ~ 6500LY
:lol: lysdexia...
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DNA = National Dyslexics Association.
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DNA = Do Not Alter :pimp:
anyway. There is no proof as to which nebula it is. For all we are told, it could be in the Andromeda Galaxy or M81. I could just as easily say it was the Tatantula Nebula in the Large Magellanic Could dwarf galaxy. and no-one can say im wrong.
Bosch only wonders if the Ancient Egyptians saw it going supernova.
Anyway, you guys are counting on the star being destroyed in the ancient-shivan war. Personally i think the system was already a nebula. My proof - Knossos 2. There is no way in hell a knossos could survive a supernova.
I say the star had already gone supernova - thus both subspace nodes node out of the system were destablised. The anicients came along and sablised the G-Drax/Nebula node. Then they entered the nebula and stabilised the Nebula/binary node. I suspect the knossos 3 in the binary system leads to another nebula
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Unless the Knossos was built after the supernova.
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Pretty bloody stupid to go back and build a knossos leading the Shivan space though wouldn't you say? :D
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A Knossos can lock down the nodes. You build a Knossos to stop the Shivans.
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A Knossos can lock down the nodes.
:wtf: Since when?
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A Knossos can lock down the nodes. You build a Knossos to stop the Shivans.
That's non-canon.
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A Knossos can lock down the nodes. You build a Knossos to stop the Shivans.
Uh...I don't think they do. They just stabilize, don't they? Turning it off won't destabilize, unless the node was unstable to begin with.
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Might be. But we don't know if the Knossos can also lock down nodes, so you can't fully say that it's not canon. Well, I have the story different about the Knossos in that system anyway.
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Alright, just make sure it doesn't break continuity too much :P
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Might be. But we don't know if the Knossos can also lock down nodes, so you can't fully say that it's not canon. Well, I have the story different about the Knossos in that system anyway.
We also don't know if the Shivans were just trying to say "Happy holidays!" when they blew Capella up, so you can't fully say that that is not canon.
Feel free to make up your own things on your own campaigns, but don't refer to them in discussions where canon evidence has a high meaning.
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Might be. But we don't know if the Knossos can also lock down nodes, so you can't fully say that it's not canon. Well, I have the story different about the Knossos in that system anyway.
We also don't know if the Shivans were just trying to say "Happy holidays!" when they blew Capella up, so you can't fully say that that is not canon.
Feel free to make up your own things on your own campaigns, but don't refer to them in discussions where canon evidence has a high meaning.
Alright. But present me with canon evidence that a Knossos can't lock down nodes.
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Because the GTVA decided to blow it up rather than to just shut it off/use it to lock the node in "A Flaming Sword"?
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[sarcasm]Yea, they so made the Knossos gates and fully knew about their functionality. They knew EVERYTHING about the Knossos gates, and had time to shut them down if they knew that.[/sarcasm]
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Alright. But present me with canon evidence that a Knossos can't lock down nodes.
Right after you've presented me with canon evidence that the Vasudans didn't evolve from the platypus.
Or give at least the slightest canon hint towards the locking ability. There were several mentionings about the portals' ability to create a subspace field and stabilize unstable nodes. But nothing about "locking".
Edit: To put it simple and hopefully avoid further arguments... don't say "A Knossos can lock down nodes", but rather "A Knossos might be able to lock down nodes".
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Alright. I say that a Knossos might lock down nodes, so that might be the reason why the Ancients built a Knossos after the system went supernova. After the supernova that is.
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Interesting how most discussions concerning the nebula, bosch will become discussions about Knossos and eventually, how it works.
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Alright. I say that a Knossos might lock down nodes, so that might be the reason why the Ancients built a Knossos after the system went supernova. After the supernova that is.
How do you know that the system went supernova before they made the Knossos? :rolleyes:
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How do you know that it didn't ?
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How do you know that it didn't ?
How do you know that the system went supernova before they made the Knossos? :rolleyes:
You don't. We have no canon information, so let's keep the absolutes out the discussion shall we ?
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This is why i thought i have to make a totally new Story inside FSAR. Because that "Canon" and the Story itself was so confusing and not has been taken to an End (FS3). Now we all have to deal with 50:50 Information and our own Suggestions.
How do you know that the system went supernova before they made the Knossos?
Hmmm...maybe because a Supernova might have destroyed the Knossos ?
How do you know that it didn't ?
Because a jump Node inside a empty Star System that is far of any Civilization, might be stupid... :D
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How do you know that it didn't ?
How do you know that the system went supernova before they made the Knossos? :rolleyes:
You don't. We have no canon information, so let's keep the absolutes out the discussion shall we ?
As already mentioned, Knossos number 2, that's in the nebula, it wouldn't have survived the nova otherwise, so it must have been constructed after the system went nova. :rolleyes:
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Exactly. There is NO way a knossos could suvive a supernova. Thus system was already a nebula. Since they never identify the nebula in game, i count calling it the Lupus or Crab nebula speculation and thus non-canon.
I suspect that the Ancients encountered the shivans somewhere beyond Knossos 3. PEtrach only says that Knossos 1 leads to the area where the shivans were first enountered 8000 years before. No specifics.
Say a humungous Terran-Vasudan battle occured in wolf 359, I could say Ross 128 leads to the area where that battle took place.
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This post is total speculation, if it doesn't fit in the borders of canon, it doesn't. If it does, it does.
I'd say the 1-st Knossos leads out of the Milky Way.
The second one connects that other galaxy with a third one.
And there was a 3-rd Knossos in the "Dive! Dive! Dive!" mission, which leads to...
a place where Shivans are pwning another civilisation with at least 3 Saths (possibly implying they have a jugillion of Saths, and space is full of life)?
Also- if the Shivans are a part of a bigger problem, and they spread across multiple galaxies... what exactly is that bigger problem?
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Pretty bloody stupid to go back and build a knossos leading the Shivan space though wouldn't you say? :D
They wouldn't have know it was Shivan space til they encountered them though would they ;7 :lol:
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Well the general assumption by those who claim the supernova is 8000 years old is that this is because the Shivans created the supernova as part of their campaign against the ancients.
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This post is total speculation, if it doesn't fit in the borders of canon, it doesn't. If it does, it does.
I'd say the 1-st Knossos leads out of the Milky Way.
The second one connects that other galaxy with a third one.
And there was a 3-rd Knossos in the "Dive! Dive! Dive!" mission, which leads to...
a place where Shivans are pwning another civilisation with at least 3 Saths (possibly implying they have a jugillion of Saths, and space is full of life)?
Also- if the Shivans are a part of a bigger problem, and they spread across multiple galaxies... what exactly is that bigger problem?
THE DALEKS
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Most people say that it was either the Lupus Nebula or the Crab Nebula. The Crab Nebula is an interesting candidate because our calculations show that the star shouldn't have exploded when it did because it didn't have enough mass at the time.
Shivans?
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Intrasystem nodes can survive supernovas. And perhaps a knossos can lockdown nodes as well. I mean bosch couldn't go through the first knossos in gamma drac. until he figured out how to power it up and use it. Or just that the knossos was powered down thousands of years ago and that node that the knossos use to stabilize became destabilized in that timeframe.
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The latter is much more strongly implied. Recall that even after the Knossos was destroyed, the node continued to exist. That may simply be superior Shivan technology, but I think it's much more likely that the Knossos simply continued to stabilize the node up until the moment was destroyed, and the Sathanas being in-transit simply served to somehow make the node permanent. Perhaps Shivan ships have some kind of subspace-stabilization side effect of their jump drives.
Since the Knossos itself doesn't seem to have a centralized core, it may be that it draws its power from subspace somehow. Sort of a perpetual motion machine, which would contradict the laws of physics, but then again, so does the spinning aspect of it.
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Considering the fact that to destroy a node you need some massive explosives to explode in the opening to subspace. Supernovas don't open up nodes like terrans do and let it off in the opening specifically. Perhaps if a node is open while a supernova is happening then i can see a supernova destroying a node.
I think it was pretty well implied that after the knossos blew up that the knossos had stabilized that node for the longterm future after a sath came through since bosch turned the knossos on. Remember, bosch tracked down the location of the knossos, and learned how to activate it. Which, restabilized the node so ntf forces could go through it in the first place.
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I always assumed the node in the nebula was out of range of the nova and stellar drift over a VERY long time caused it to reach the node.
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How do we actually know, that Supernovas destroy Jump Nodes ? I mean, did anybody tested it for real ?
If Jump Connections exist in Subspace, how can they get destroyed in real Space ? Yeah, you could destroy the Portal to the Subspacetunnel, but not the Tunnel itself, since it´s not existing in real Space. As long as you have the coordinates of the "Entrance" and "Exit", you could always again build up the Subspacetunnel.
what exactly is that bigger problem?
Think about Half-Life 2 and the Combine. Maybe the Shivans been send to cripple the Terran Systems and to open up the ancient Jump Gates, for someone else. Though that would interfer with the Fact, the Shivans want to "return" to theyr Home Universe.
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:wtf: Who mentioned that nova destroys jump nodes, I was talking about the nova destroying the Knossos, not the node?
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Oh :lol: ok i agree with that:yes:
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The Nebula is definitely older than the Knossos. The Ancients built their portal there, in the Binary, and somewhere beyond, they encountered the Shivans, much like the GTVA did.
@Snail: I never said the Nebula is intergalactic. I said system-to-system nodes are intragalactic.
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Well, for all we know a super nova does destabilise nodes...hense knossai being used to stabilize them. But yes the Supernova would have destroyed the knossos.
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Well, for all we know a super nova does destabilise nodes...
Do we, now?
lol @ custom title
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I never said that...Im just saying it could
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Well, for all we know a super nova does destabilise nodes...hense knossai being used to stabilize them. But yes the Supernova would have destroyed the knossos.
I'd beg to differ. This is people popping in an assumption and hoping its real. The ancients put a knossos there to restabalize a dead node. Again i'll say this, the only way to destroy a node is to jam pack explosives into the opening to subspace and detonate. Since supernovas don't do that, then you got your answer. The other thing is that supernovas occur in real space and not subspace.
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Well, for all we know a super nova does destabilise nodes...hense knossai being used to stabilize them. But yes the Supernova would have destroyed the knossos.
I'd beg to differ. This is people popping in an assumption and hoping its real. The ancients put a knossos there to restabalize a dead node. Again i'll say this, the only way to destroy a node is to jam pack explosives into the opening to subspace and detonate. Since supernovas don't do that, then you got your answer. The other thing is that supernovas occur in real space and not subspace.
WHAT IF...
The Ancients were fleeing the system and at the last minute, opened a subspace opening back to Gamma Draconis just as the supernova shockwave hit it. The power of the shockwave would be a LOT more than a bunch of Meson Bombs and would shut the wormhole down.
Then the Ancients made the Knossos to restabilize the node...
Well, one hole is, why would the Ancients fight the Shivans again?
And, another is, the shockwave of the Supernova would have destroyed a Knossos.
So, the Ancients must have looked for the Shivans again. A damned stupid thing to do, imo.
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Well they are portrayed as very arrogant
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All this shall be answered
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WHAT IF...
The Ancients were fleeing the system and at the last minute, opened a subspace opening back to Gamma Draconis just as the supernova shockwave hit it. The power of the shockwave would be a LOT more than a bunch of Meson Bombs and would shut the wormhole down.
Entering subspace takes vibration in n dimensions (check the Tech Room); a shockwave doesn't do that, therefore it couldn't have affected the node IMO.
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Besides. In-game, you can fly into a vortex caused by another ship, and nothing happens. I have something else thought out.
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So I played some Retail FS2, read trough the Wiki concerning Shivans etc. and the Results/Facts are very clearly.
1. It is the Crab Nebula. History Section clearly states that.
2. The Crab Nebula is about 6000-7000 Lightyears from Sol (In Reality)...don´t know how far away it is in FS2.
3. The Ancients did not make the Shivans, BUT they have been build, not evoluted like Terrans or Vasudans did.
4. Some Informations state that the Shivans are either Insect or Cyborg Lifeforms.
5. The Shivans being controlled by a Hive Mind. So there must be either something like a Queen that controlls the Hive, or someone who builds them and now controlls them.
6. Shivans can´t life in Subspace, because they have Shields. In Subspace Shields are unusefull, so why should a Species living in Subspace, build Shields ?
7. The Shivans are Nomades. At least that part the GTVA meets in FS2, also in FS1.
8. Just because theyr Nomades, doesn´t says theyre in search for theyr Home Universe. They might be Nomades just as a Fact.
9. The Fact that Shivans create a Supernova without doubt, killing Billions of Lifes, interfers with the Solution they want to return to theyr Homes. A Species without Emotions and controlled by a Hive, doesn´t cares about theyr Homes (in my Opinion).
10. The Fact that they are ruthless and kill everything they met, does NOT interfere with the Fact, they creating Supernovas and killing everything inside a Star System. So they are simply bad$%&.
So for me the Solution is easy. There is another Kingdom, maybe a Dominion or something similar. And thoose are afraid of the Terran and Vasudan expansion into Subspace and the whole Galaxy. They send Shivans to simply cut of the Connections to theyr "Dominion" Star Systems.
I also read something in Wiki, that Shivans only act, if other Cultures are fighting each others. I support that Idea. If People are not willing to make Peace by themselfs, the Shivans create the ultimate Peace...in Death...;)
PS: The Ancients, though, might be the Creators of Shivans. And if Terrans extinct the Shivans and something even worth shows up, the Ancients, maybe, might still be around somewhere, evoluted to another Species that is even more horrible then booth, the Ancients and Shivans are.
PS2: Anyone remembers Steven Kings Langoliers or Species 8072 from ST Voyager. Thoose that came to "clean up" the World. Pretty much fits to the Shivan Theme, doesn´t it...;)
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So I played some Retail FS2, read trough the Wiki concerning Shivans etc. and the Results/Facts are very clearly.
1. It is the Crab Nebula. History Section clearly states that.
2. The Crab Nebula is about 6000-7000 Lightyears from Sol (In Reality)...don´t know how far away it is in FS2.
3. The Ancients did not make the Shivans, BUT they have been build, not evoluted like Terrans or Vasudans did.
4. Some Informations state that the Shivans are either Insect or Cyborg Lifeforms.
5. The Shivans being controlled by a Hive Mind. So there must be either something like a Queen that controlls the Hive, or someone who builds them and now controlls them.
6. Shivans can´t life in Subspace, because they have Shields. In Subspace Shields are unusefull, so why should a Species living in Subspace, build Shields ?
7. The Shivans are Nomades. At least that part the GTVA meets in FS2, also in FS1.
8. Just because theyr Nomades, doesn´t says theyre in search for theyr Home Universe. They might be Nomades just as a Fact.
9. The Fact that Shivans create a Supernova without doubt, killing Billions of Lifes, interfers with the Solution they want to return to theyr Homes. A Species without Emotions and controlled by a Hive, doesn´t cares about theyr Homes (in my Opinion).
10. The Fact that they are ruthless and kill everything they met, does NOT interfere with the Fact, they creating Supernovas and killing everything inside a Star System. So they are simply bad$%&.
So for me the Solution is easy. There is another Kingdom, maybe a Dominion or something similar. And thoose are afraid of the Terran and Vasudan expansion into Subspace and the whole Galaxy. They send Shivans to simply cut of the Connections to theyr "Dominion" Star Systems.
I also read something in Wiki, that Shivans only act, if other Cultures are fighting each others. I support that Idea. If People are not willing to make Peace by themselfs, the Shivans create the ultimate Peace...in Death...;)
PS: The Ancients, though, might be the Creators of Shivans. And if Terrans extinct the Shivans and something even worth shows up, the Ancients, maybe, might still be around somewhere, evoluted to another Scpecies that is even more horrible then booth, the Ancients and Shivans are.
PS2: Anyone remembers Steven Kings Langoliers or Species 8072 from ST Voyager. Thoose that came to "clean up" the World. Pretty much fits to the Shivan Theme, doesn´t it...;)
To be honest, I totally disagree with you. Except for the fact that the Shivans act only when there is already conflict. But I disagree with anything else. Won't explain why, as it's people opinions, so everyone can think what they want. But it's NOT what/how I imagine the Shivans are like.
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To be honest, I totally disagree with you. Except for the fact that the Shivans act only when there is already conflict. But I disagree with anything else. Won't explain why, as it's people opinions, so everyone can think what they want. But it's NOT what/how I imagine the Shivans are like.
I didn´t state that as a Fact. It´s just my Opinion of what I read Ingame, the Wiki and other Threads. There´s always room for new Ideas that let me expand my Horizon... ;)
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I have a totally different idea of the Shivans. I agree more with Flaming_Sword's Shivan mod tech entries. Though not 100%. I'll try to answer about them in a campaign I'll make after the Ancient Shivan War.
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The Ancients, though, might be the Creators of Shivans. And if Terrans extinct the Shivans and something even worth shows up, the Ancients, maybe, might still be around somewhere, evoluted to another Species that is even more horrible then booth, the Ancients and Shivans are.
If you asked me, there would have surely been more references to this scenario if it was true. Something like the Ancient narrator in FS1 talking about "our mistake" or something. But no. Instead she seemed to imply that the Shivans merely appeared when the Ancients started traveling via subspace.
Anyone remembers Steven Kings Langoliers or Species 8072 from ST Voyager. Thoose that came to "clean up" the World. Pretty much fits to the Shivan Theme, doesn´t it...;)
Not sure about the Langoliers (I do have a mental image but nothing specific information), but didn't Species 8472 merely have a "The weak shall perish" mentality? They weren't cleansing anything. The Borg went in and bothered them. 8472 got pissed and started pwning everything that they came across, mostly the Borg. Personally, I view the Shivans to be similar to Alastair Reynolds' Inhibitors (see Wikipedia for more info on them).
To be honest, I totally disagree with you. Except for the fact that the Shivans act only when there is already conflict. But I disagree with anything else. Won't explain why, as it's people opinions, so everyone can think what they want. But it's NOT what/how I imagine the Shivans are like.
I didn´t state that as a Fact
O rly?
So I played some Retail FS2, read trough the Wiki concerning Shivans etc. and the Results/Facts are very clearly.
Oh, I think you did.
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Oh, I think you did.
Yeah whatever...maybe I state that as a Fact for me... ;)
And I want to see you, how you express yourself in German Language... ;)
Another Paradoxon is:
The Shivans have Satanuses to destroy Stars ? So they expecting at a certain Stage, they´ve been cut of theyr Homes and then use/build thoose Ships to return ? Or did they simply build Star Destroyers, to cut off Subspace Connections, or maybe to kill Species ?
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So I played some Retail FS2, read trough the Wiki concerning Shivans etc. and the Results/Facts are very clearly.
1. It is the Crab Nebula. History Section clearly states that. Nowhere in the game this is said or even refered to.
2. The Crab Nebula is about 6000-7000 Lightyears from Sol (In Reality)...don´t know how far away it is in FS2. See above.
3. The Ancients did not make the Shivans, BUT they have been build, not evoluted like Terrans or Vasudans did. See above.
4. Some Informations state that the Shivans are either Insect or Cyborg Lifeforms. This info the game does state but against it, although by "experts". The tech room entry on the Shivans state "Other experts caution against attributing insectoid properties to the Shivans, regardless of their appearance and behavior."
5. The Shivans being controlled by a Hive Mind. So there must be either something like a Queen that controlls the Hive, or someone who builds them and now controlls them.The first statement is somewhat false if one wants to nitpick, as it's not a certainty, only the leadind hypothesis :p. And if one wants to use it, then what controls them is a Lucifer like entity, since it's the main evidence for that theory being the leading one in the first place. Again, according to the tech room entry.
6. Shivans can´t life in Subspace, because they have Shields. In Subspace Shields are unusefull, so why should a Species living in Subspace, build Shields ? We can't live in space either, so why have radiation shielding and the like?
7. The Shivans are Nomades. At least that part the GTVA meets in FS2, also in FS1. Again, that statement is somewhat sketchy since the only thing that is refered to ingame is Petrarch stating a "maybe".
8. Just because theyr Nomades, doesn´t says theyre in search for theyr Home Universe. They might be Nomades just as a Fact. See above.
9. The Fact that Shivans create a Supernova without doubt, killing Billions of Lifes, interfers with the Solution they want to return to theyr Homes. A Species without Emotions and controlled by a Hive, doesn´t cares about theyr Homes (in my Opinion). That infers that you understand the shivan psyche which is often met with arguments against your lack of imagination :p.
10. The Fact that they are ruthless and kill everything they met, does NOT interfere with the Fact, they creating Supernovas and killing everything inside a Star System. So they are simply bad$%&.I'm not sure what your point is in this last one, but just to reply to all of them I say, sure! They are this universe's deus ex machinas.
(snip)
So in general, I advise you to not look at the wiki or other related non-ingame sources as canon and only as a suggestion. :p
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So in general, I advise you to not look at the wiki or other related non-ingame sources as canon and only as a suggestion.
If I don´t make my own Imaginations/Suggestions, that could say I don´t care about the Story. But I do. I want to know where they came from, why they create Supernovas and which kind of Life they are.
1. It is the Crab Nebula. History Section clearly states that. Nowhere in the game this is said or even refered to.
Ingame someone talked about Crab Nebula and suggests it to be, that "Nebula"...don´t know if this Sentence is on english Version FS2.
2. The Crab Nebula is about 6000-7000 Lightyears from Sol (In Reality)...don´t know how far away it is in FS2. See above.
I thought if the Crab Nebula is 6000-7000 from Sol in Reality, it might also be ingame.
3. The Ancients did not make the Shivans, BUT they have been build, not evoluted like Terrans or Vasudans did. See above.
Common Sense. If the Canon inside Wiki and the Game says they might be Cyborg beings, they maybe are. And Cyborgs don´t evolute.
4. Some Informations state that the Shivans are either Insect or Cyborg Lifeforms. This info the game does state but against it, although by "experts". The tech room entry on the Shivans state "Other experts caution against attributing insectoid properties to the Shivans, regardless of their appearance and behavior."
They are only Insects inside my Universe... :D
But I actually really believe, they are Cyborg Beings. They looked like Cyborg beings as they crawl trough that Tunnel.
5. The Shivans being controlled by a Hive Mind. So there must be either something like a Queen that controlls the Hive, or someone who builds them and now controlls them.The first statement is somewhat false if one wants to nitpick, as it's not a certainty, only the leadind hypothesis . And if one wants to use it, then what controls them is a Lucifer like entity, since it's the main evidence for that theory being the leading one in the first place. Again, according to the tech room entry.
Ok, it doesn´t have to be Insect Lifeforms, to life in a Hive. But maybe something else, that also apllies this "Hive-Sysem". You mean like a single Entity that controls all the Shivans ? So this Entity must be alive or some sort of intelligent Lifeform, right ?
6. Shivans can´t life in Subspace, because they have Shields. In Subspace Shields are unusefull, so why should a Species living in Subspace, build Shields ? We can't live in space either, so why have radiation shielding and the like?
Because I doubt that there are Planets inside Subspace. If Subspace is fluitic and is like it´s statet ingame, nothing static should exist inside of it. Or short said, Live can´t exist in Subspace (I think).
7. The Shivans are Nomades. At least that part the GTVA meets in FS2, also in FS1. Again, that statement is somewhat sketchy since the only thing that is refered to ingame is Petrarch stating a "maybe".
Yeah, that was just suggestion. When the Colossus entered the Nebula, there was no Sign of any habitable Planet + the System got destroyed by a Supernova, right ? It also seems that Shivans don´t relate to Planets or similar Things to life on, right ? (at least I didn´t saw ingame that theres a Shivan Home Planet or System). So i´m pretty sure they are just Voyagers cruising through the Vaccuum, until they been send to "clean" the Galaxy once again.
9. The Fact that Shivans create a Supernova without doubt, killing Billions of Lifes, interfers with the Solution they want to return to theyr Homes. A Species without Emotions and controlled by a Hive, doesn´t cares about theyr Homes (in my Opinion). That infers that you understand the shivan psyche which is often met with arguments against your lack of imagination .
Rofl. No, it´s just common Sense. I don´t expect the Shivans to be overemotional and as sayed before, I think they´re being controlled. So do Zombies care about theyr Homes ? Do Borgs care about theyr Homes ? Do Shivans care about theyr Homes, if they actually don´t have any Home (in my Opinion) ?
10. The Fact that they are ruthless and kill everything they met, does NOT interfere with the Fact, they creating Supernovas and killing everything inside a Star System. So they are simply bad$%&.I'm not sure what your point is in this last one, but just to reply to all of them I say, sure! They are this universe's deus ex machinas.
I simply wanted to say, that they act more like Killers, then like Lifeforms searching for theyr Homes...
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When the Colossus entered the Nebula,
When did the Colossus enter the nebula?
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1. It is the Crab Nebula. History Section clearly states that. Nowhere in the game this is said or even refered to.
Ingame someone talked about Crab Nebula and suggests it to be, that "Nebula"...don´t know if this Sentence is on english Version FS2.
Nope. They didn't. And to double check I just grepped the whole set of FS2 missions and tables for the word crab and turned up nothing.
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When did the Colossus enter the nebula?
Doh, my Failure. The Colossus was the one dealing the critical blow to NTF in Polaris. So the Ship entering the Nebula was the Aquieten ? Or was it the Nike ?...meh, I just forget, who cares about Names anyways... :hopping:
Actually, i ment that Ship entering the Nebula, not the Colossus. There it says the Nebula is about 10-20 Lightyears of Size and a Supernova might have created it. So 1+1 = when a Supernova occurs, no Planet will survive this = theres no Planet around the Nebula... :D
Nope. They didn't. And to double check I just grepped the whole set of FS2 missions and tables for the word crab and turned up nothing.
To be honest, I don´t know where I catched up that Sentence. But it´s coming from somewhere...i´m sure of that... :D
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The final blow to the NTF was dealt by the Colossus at Gamma Draconis, near the portal. And lots of GTVA ships went into the nebula. But the player was on the Aquitaine.
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Yeah, i rushed through the Game, to get the Informations. So i might have forget some smaller Things. But basically I think you understand what i´m trying to express.
Isn´t there a Freespace Developer somewhere around. We need enlightment... :D
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The final blow to the NTF was dealt by the Colossus at Gamma Draconis, near the portal. And lots of GTVA ships went into the nebula. But the player was on the Aquitaine.
Actually, during the second nebular campaign, Alpha 1 was stationed on the Spamtik.
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So in general, I advise you to not look at the wiki or other related non-ingame sources as canon and only as a suggestion.
If I don´t make my own Imaginations/Suggestions, that could say I don´t care about the Story. But I do. I want to know where they came from, why they create Supernovas and which kind of Life they are.
1. It is the Crab Nebula. History Section clearly states that. Nowhere in the game this is said or even refered to.
Ingame someone talked about Crab Nebula and suggests it to be, that "Nebula"...don´t know if this Sentence is on english Version FS2.
2. The Crab Nebula is about 6000-7000 Lightyears from Sol (In Reality)...don´t know how far away it is in FS2. See above.
I thought if the Crab Nebula is 6000-7000 from Sol in Reality, it might also be ingame.
3. The Ancients did not make the Shivans, BUT they have been build, not evoluted like Terrans or Vasudans did. See above.
Common Sense. If the Canon inside Wiki and the Game says they might be Cyborg beings, they maybe are. And Cyborgs don´t evolute.
4. Some Informations state that the Shivans are either Insect or Cyborg Lifeforms. This info the game does state but against it, although by "experts". The tech room entry on the Shivans state "Other experts caution against attributing insectoid properties to the Shivans, regardless of their appearance and behavior."
They are only Insects inside my Universe... :D
But I actually really believe, they are Cyborg Beings. They looked like Cyborg beings as they crawl trough that Tunnel.
5. The Shivans being controlled by a Hive Mind. So there must be either something like a Queen that controlls the Hive, or someone who builds them and now controlls them.The first statement is somewhat false if one wants to nitpick, as it's not a certainty, only the leadind hypothesis . And if one wants to use it, then what controls them is a Lucifer like entity, since it's the main evidence for that theory being the leading one in the first place. Again, according to the tech room entry.
Ok, it doesn´t have to be Insect Lifeforms, to life in a Hive. But maybe something else, that also apllies this "Hive-Sysem". You mean like a single Entity that controls all the Shivans ? So this Entity must be alive or some sort of intelligent Lifeform, right ?
6. Shivans can´t life in Subspace, because they have Shields. In Subspace Shields are unusefull, so why should a Species living in Subspace, build Shields ? We can't live in space either, so why have radiation shielding and the like?
Because I doubt that there are Planets inside Subspace. If Subspace is fluitic and is like it´s statet ingame, nothing static should exist inside of it. Or short said, Live can´t exist in Subspace (I think).
7. The Shivans are Nomades. At least that part the GTVA meets in FS2, also in FS1. Again, that statement is somewhat sketchy since the only thing that is refered to ingame is Petrarch stating a "maybe".
Yeah, that was just suggestion. When the Colossus entered the Nebula, there was no Sign of any habitable Planet + the System got destroyed by a Supernova, right ? It also seems that Shivans don´t relate to Planets or similar Things to life on, right ? (at least I didn´t saw ingame that theres a Shivan Home Planet or System). So i´m pretty sure they are just Voyagers cruising through the Vaccuum, until they been send to "clean" the Galaxy once again.
9. The Fact that Shivans create a Supernova without doubt, killing Billions of Lifes, interfers with the Solution they want to return to theyr Homes. A Species without Emotions and controlled by a Hive, doesn´t cares about theyr Homes (in my Opinion). That infers that you understand the shivan psyche which is often met with arguments against your lack of imagination .
Rofl. No, it´s just common Sense. I don´t expect the Shivans to be overemotional and as sayed before, I think they´re being controlled. So do Zombies care about theyr Homes ? Do Borgs care about theyr Homes ? Do Shivans care about theyr Homes, if they actually don´t have any Home (in my Opinion) ?
10. The Fact that they are ruthless and kill everything they met, does NOT interfere with the Fact, they creating Supernovas and killing everything inside a Star System. So they are simply bad$%&.I'm not sure what your point is in this last one, but just to reply to all of them I say, sure! They are this universe's deus ex machinas.
I simply wanted to say, that they act more like Killers, then like Lifeforms searching for theyr Homes...
1. There is no reference anywhere about the Crab Nebula ingame. In fact there is no reference whatsoever to what nebula it might be.
2. I mearly wanted to state that since it's unknown it's the Crab Nebula, it's distance could be anything and it still wouldn't be related to the conversation.
3. They might be cybernetic beings. The might makes all the diference as they also might not be. In which case they can evolve freely. And cybernetic organisms can evolve. Granted it's easier to demonstrate with entirely organic living beings, but the point remains, nothing stops them from evolving.
4. Erm... sure.
5. I think the Hive theory if real, would mean that there are multiple Hive minds throughout the Shivan forces. Since the Lucifer is supposed to be one of them, and the rest of the fleet in FS2 seems pretty organised. So no single entity controlling the entire Shivan forces.
6. Life as we know it can't exist inside subspace. The Shivans are so alien compared to the Terrans or Vasudans, they could be Budda incarnate and it still wouldn't surprise me. Also, we aren't given enough information about subspace to know what exactly it is.
7. They also have non-moving objects which tend to discorage assigning them the label of "wanderes" or "nomads". See the Shivan Comm Node for example.
9. You are arguing about the motives and reasoning of the Shivans, which we know nothing about. We don't know why they destroyed the Capella star, we don't know why they attacked the GTA and the PVN, we don't know why they attacked the GTVA, etc... To reach a conclusion so specific as to say they don't have emotions or they don't want to go home is like I said, lack of imagination.
10. See answer to 9 above.
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1. There is no reference anywhere about the Crab Nebula ingame. In fact there is no reference whatsoever to what nebula it might be.
2. I mearly wanted to state that since it's unknown it's the Crab Nebula, it's distance could be anything and it still wouldn't be related to the conversation.
OK, accepted. It might be the Crab Nebula...but i´m pretty sure it is... :D
And yes, basically i think Volition Team has been influenced by the same Informations about Space we share today. Like Theory about Wormholes, Subspace and Space Travelling at all.
There wouldn´t be so many suggestions about it, if no one really believes in this "Theory".
3. They might be cybernetic beings. The might makes all the diference as they also might not be. In which case they can evolve freely. And cybernetic organisms can evolve. Granted it's easier to demonstrate with entirely organic living beings, but the point remains, nothing stops them from evolving.
4. Erm... sure.
So do they look like Cyborgs or not ? I´d say, yes they do. If they wouldn´t look like Cyborgs, then GTVA Scientists would not have suggestet it...i think.
And I think Cyborgs can´t evolve. BUT they can be evolved...by theyr Creators.
5. I think the Hive theory if real, would mean that there are multiple Hive minds throughout the Shivan forces. Since the Lucifer is supposed to be one of them, and the rest of the fleet in FS2 seems pretty organised. So no single entity controlling the entire Shivan forces.
Yeah, that´s basically Ok for me. Either a single "Controller", or multiple controlling Entitys...wouldn´t be that much of a Difference, for me. But doesn´t makes that Lucifers partial intelligent ?...that says if the Lucifers are not controlled by someone else ?
6. Life as we know it can't exist inside subspace. The Shivans are so alien compared to the Terrans or Vasudans, they could be Budda incarnate and it still wouldn't surprise me. Also, we aren't given enough information about subspace to know what exactly it is.
I think we stripped it down to the Base here. Life can´t exist in Subspace. So if the Shivans are either Carbon based or Ethernal Lifeforms (which have to put theyr Body into that Suit, that let´s them look like Cyborgs), they booth couldn´t exist in Subspace. That says, maybe the Shivans are a "fluitic" Race, that needs thoose Suits to life in normal Space...but if so, why do they act so instinctive and ruthless ? It can be either only because they are afraid, or they are really Bad%&%&& without Emotions. I basically can accept the "Shivans life in Subspace" Theory...but i prefer the one they don´t.
7. They also have non-moving objects which tend to discorage assigning them the label of "wanderes" or "nomads". See the Shivan Comm Node for example.
Yeah, but theese are only Communication Nodes. There´s nothing else that proofs they settled somewhere else. So again, i´m more comfortable with the "Nomade" Theory.
You are arguing about the motives and reasoning of the Shivans, which we know nothing about.
No, it´s just what i have in my Mind. As I said, they really don´t feel like being over emotional...that´s all.
To reach a conclusion so specific as to say they don't have emotions or they don't want to go home is like I said, lack of imagination.
I would name it different Imagination...but that´s just me... :p
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3. They might be cybernetic beings. The might makes all the diference as they also might not be. In which case they can evolve freely. And cybernetic organisms can evolve. Granted it's easier to demonstrate with entirely organic living beings, but the point remains, nothing stops them from evolving.
4. Erm... sure.
So do they look like Cyborgs or not ? I´d say, yes they do. If they wouldn´t look like Cyborgs, then GTVA Scientists would not have suggestet it...i think.
And I think Cyborgs can´t evolve. BUT they can be evolved...by theyr Creators.
And you don't think it's strange that despite the possibility that they might be cybernetic lifeforms, the GTVA scientists haven't made up their mind?
Cyborgs can evolve. Their biological part can continue to evolve while their mechanical part can either stay constant or even evolve on it's on if it's advanced enough. Hell, the concept of evolution has been applied to machines (albeit their designs) today, so I'd say an alien species can do it.
5. I think the Hive theory if real, would mean that there are multiple Hive minds throughout the Shivan forces. Since the Lucifer is supposed to be one of them, and the rest of the fleet in FS2 seems pretty organised. So no single entity controlling the entire Shivan forces.
Yeah, that´s basically Ok for me. Either a single "Controller", or multiple controlling Entitys...wouldn´t be that much of a Difference, for me. But doesn´t makes that Lucifers partial intelligent ?...that says if the Lucifers are not controlled by someone else ?
The Lucifer can be controlled by someone else, but the point is, we don't know.
6. Life as we know it can't exist inside subspace. The Shivans are so alien compared to the Terrans or Vasudans, they could be Budda incarnate and it still wouldn't surprise me. Also, we aren't given enough information about subspace to know what exactly it is.
I think we stripped it down to the Base here. Life can´t exist in Subspace. So if the Shivans are either Carbon based or Ethernal Lifeforms (which have to put theyr Body into that Suit, that let´s them look like Cyborgs), they booth couldn´t exist in Subspace. That says, maybe the Shivans are a "fluitic" Race, that needs thoose Suits to life in normal Space...but if so, why do they act so instinctive and ruthless ? It can be either only because they are afraid, or they are really Bad%&%&& without Emotions. I basically can accept the "Shivans life in Subspace" Theory...but i prefer the one they don´t.
Note that I've said life as we know it, and we do not know the Shivans. And we don't know enough about subspace to know what can or can't exist there and we don't know enough about the shivans to know... well... almost anything related to them. As to why they do what they do, like anything related to them, it's a mistery.
7. They also have non-moving objects which tend to discorage assigning them the label of "wanderes" or "nomads". See the Shivan Comm Node for example.
Yeah, but theese are only Communication Nodes. There´s nothing else that proofs they settled somewhere else. So again, i´m more comfortable with the "Nomade" Theory.
Why would they need immobile communication nodes then? The fact that we don't know anything beyond the system beyond the second knossos limits our knowledge of what "lifestyle" they lead.
You are arguing about the motives and reasoning of the Shivans, which we know nothing about.
No, it´s just what i have in my Mind. As I said, they really don´t feel like being over emotional...that´s all.
To reach a conclusion so specific as to say they don't have emotions or they don't want to go home is like I said, lack of imagination.
I would name it different Imagination...but that´s just me... :p
You started your post which led to these replies by stating those were facts...
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WHAT IF...
The Ancients were fleeing the system and at the last minute, opened a subspace opening back to Gamma Draconis just as the supernova shockwave hit it. The power of the shockwave would be a LOT more than a bunch of Meson Bombs and would shut the wormhole down.
Then the Ancients made the Knossos to restabilize the node...
Well, one hole is, why would the Ancients fight the Shivans again?
And, another is, the shockwave of the Supernova would have destroyed a Knossos.
So, the Ancients must have looked for the Shivans again. A damned stupid thing to do, imo.
Sure that could have happened if the opening to the node was open when ships were escaping when the supernova is blasting by. Not all nodes are super stable though. The tech room says that some last for a long time while some others are more intermittent. Another thing is that the ancients could have put the knossos there before they met the shivans. It really seems like the ancients were restabalizing a node that wasn't that stable to begin with.
The last thing is that the ancients did not create the shivans. The ancients encountered them.
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WHAT IF...
The Ancients were fleeing the system and at the last minute, opened a subspace opening back to Gamma Draconis just as the supernova shockwave hit it. The power of the shockwave would be a LOT more than a bunch of Meson Bombs and would shut the wormhole down.
Then the Ancients made the Knossos to restabilize the node...
Well, one hole is, why would the Ancients fight the Shivans again?
And, another is, the shockwave of the Supernova would have destroyed a Knossos.
So, the Ancients must have looked for the Shivans again. A damned stupid thing to do, imo.
Sure that could have happened if the opening to the node was open when ships were escaping when the supernova is blasting by. Not all nodes are super stable though. The tech room says that some last for a long time while some others are more intermittent. Another thing is that the ancients could have put the knossos there before they met the shivans. It really seems like the ancients were restabalizing a node that wasn't that stable to begin with.
The last thing is that the ancients did not create the shivans. The ancients encountered them.
But the second Knossos device is in the nebula, which means a supernova would have destroyed it. Since it didnt, we must assume the knossos was built after the supernova.
And, the subspace nodes would indeed be open. Like in Capella, hundreds (if not thousands) of ships would be fleeing. They would be opening node after node.
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The prospect of re-opening an unstable node to get out survivors?
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I actually couldn't see the second Knossos, and literally flew into it.
The prospect of re-opening an unstable node to get out survivors?
Surprisingly high. If you're desperate.
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Not sure about the Langoliers (I do have a mental image but nothing specific information)
The Langoliers were creatures that ate time after it passed.... so if you went back in time everyone would be gone (but somehow the trees would still be there, so only animals move through time or something.... :doubt:) anyway after a while the Langoliers come and eat everything since they eat the past.
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Not sure about the Langoliers (I do have a mental image but nothing specific information)
The Langoliers were creatures that ate time after it passed.... so if you went back in time everyone would be gone (but somehow the trees would still be there, so only animals move through time or something.... :doubt:) anyway after a while the Langoliers come and eat everything since they eat the past.
Ah. K. I did watch the miniseries but it was a long time ago, as in probably over ten years ago. Didn't remember any specifics apart from the fact that they looked like flying pieces o' turd. Thanks for clearing that up.
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The last thing is that the ancients did not create the shivans. The ancients encountered them.
Yeah, that´s basically what I read out of the given Informations.
Why would they need immobile communication nodes then?
To keep up Communication between the multiple Fleets, that cruising through the Galaxy...for Example.
You started your post which led to these replies by stating those were facts...
No, it´s your interpretation that I did so, because of the lag of expression in a foreign Language...but meh... :rolleyes:
Cyborgs can evolve. Their biological part can continue to evolve while their mechanical part can either stay constant or even evolve on it's on if it's advanced enough. Hell, the concept of evolution has been applied to machines (albeit their designs) today, so I'd say an alien species can do it.
The biological Parts would suffer from Negrosis, if they wouldn´t be keept intact of the mechanical Parts...so yeah, your right...they would evolute to a black mass of §$%&.
About Langoliers:
There´s a Theory about Time Travel, that if you travel into Future, the Future not yet is present and so its empty of intelligent Life. Basically it says if you go into the Future, you´ll simply have to wait for the present to occur.
If you travel into the Past, it´s already past...so theres no Life inside...Coca Cola tastes like Feet and theres no Echo Sounds etc....and the Langoliers are thoose that eat up the Past and also you, if you decide to stay in the Past.
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So I played some Retail FS2, read trough the Wiki concerning Shivans etc. and the Results/Facts are very clearly.
My interpretation... hm... :rolleyes:
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Do Shivans need Oxygen to survive ?
Hows about a Shivan Poll (Vote)...something like:
- are Cyborgs, life in Subspace, not controlled, are Nomades, needs Oxygen and/or Food and Water
- are Biological with Suit, don´t life in Subspace, being controlled, are Settlers, don´t need Qxygen, but Food and Water
- are Cyborgs in a Suit, able to exist in booth normal- and Subspace, being controlled by Entitys that are also controlled by higher Existence, needs Qxygen and Peanutbutter to survive... :D
etc. etc. etc.
I´m curios, which gets the most Votes.
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We've seen them in space unshielded in the CBanims, haven't we?
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We've seen them in space unshielded in the CBanims, haven't we?
Uh in an easter egg cutscene, yeah, but not in any CBanims that I know of. Though it is stated in the TD that they can survive in outer space.
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They most definitely can.
ST typhon cutscene :yes:
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'tis an Easter Egg, apparently.