[mjn.mixael]

Opening Thoughts

Firstly, I want to be clear that I do not mean this as an attack against any one person or project. I simply feel that this needs to be said for the community to move forward. You are free to take it or leave it and I will think no better or worse of you or your project. I am absolutely not trying to start a heated argument or to split the community in two. If you read this and want to post something as short as ‘AMEN!’, don’t. I encourage this be taken with a grain of salt and that you honestly consider what I have to say and conduct yourselves in a respectable manner. I hope I don’t come across as arrogant or mean. That isn’t my intention. I simply intend to give a viewpoint.

‘Retail Compatibility’

Defined as building mods in such a way that they are able to be run on the retail executable. I am not talking about building the source code or MediaVPs in such a way that breaks retail missions or campaigns.

That Is So 2005!

I don’t know where Retail Compatibility started, however my guess is it continued in part because of FSO’s original instability. Why make a mod for an engine that crashes half the time? You can read about the history of FSO and SCP on the interviews board, I won’t go into it here. But the point is that I can understand making something work with the stable retail executable if the current FSO version is not reliable. So if we were having this discussion several years ago, I would be on a different side. However, thanks to the incredible efforts of the SCP team, we can rely on very stable builds! It isn’t 2005 anymore. 3.6.12 is a spectacular release and 3.6.13 is shaping up to be just as good.

If code stability is the reason for staying retail compatible, then I suggest you consider how far the code has come in the last 10 years.

Audience

I don’t know about you guys, but last time I loaded up retail I was more than relieved that I could turn it off and switch over to using new builds and new assets. Retail is severely limited by today’s standards both visually and gameplay ability. I’m going to reference Blue Planet, a truly fantastic piece of work that absolutely could not be done on retail. Period. Other mods like Wings of Dawn and Vassago’s Dirge are in a similar position. These are the mods that are setting the bar. These are the kinds of mods that are being played. More importantly, these are the mods that are bring people into the community and causing HLP to be noticed. There was an article talking about FSO a while back, and it used screenshots from Blue Planet: War in Heaven.

With that said, I want to consider the audience that the retail executable still has. Frankly, I want to suggest that it probably has an audience under ten people. But I have no statistical data on that. Considering what mods are the most popular and still being played, I’m willing to bet my hard earned cash that a staggering majority of people are not playing with the retail executable.

Capability

This needs no explanation. The capabilities of the FSO code are far greater than retail could ever hope to achieve. The types of gameplay that Blue Planet has achieved is a feat once again worth mentioning. However, I don’t pretend to ignore ST:R. A great mod that is fully retail compatible and quite fun. However, I can’t stand to look at it on retail. The visual improvement of FSO is reason enough to use it alone.

Moving Forward

Mods like Blue Planet, Vassago’s Dirge, and Wings of Dawn are truly pushing the envelope of what FSO is capable of. I could probably site Diaspora here as well as a host of other projects. People come here to HLP to play the newest and groundbreaking stuff we have to give them. Time and time again we see posts of new members talking about how awesome it is to see this old game they used to love being improved and how they can’t believe what we can do with it now. Think of everything we can do with FSO today on the latest nightly build. What can YOU do with it? What WILL you do with it?

When it comes down to it, we play FSO for fun. There are many elements that come into play with that. Story, Graphics, Gameplay, etc. Each have their use. With Retail compatibility, you have to strike Graphics completely. It simply can’t measure up to the beauty of the newer builds. Gameplay could probably be cut in half. There are probably some retail gimmicks and sexps that haven’t been exhausted yet, but in the end it’s a new story with the same old missions, just more of it. I know that can be fun, ST:R is a great example of it. But I believe it could have been better, if not truly exceptional.

If you truly want to push the envelope and make something worth mentioning in the same breath as some of HLP’s flagship mods, I truly believe that you have to join them in their philosophy of moving forward and not look back.

[General Battuta]

I agree with everything in this post, but I have to ask: does anyone do this aside from Goober?

[Fury]

FSPort, ST:R and what have you aren't really nothing more than straight conversion from FS1. Since retail FS2 is capable of anything that FS1 was, there was no need to drop retail compatibility. If you don't have missions that make use of FSO, there is very little reason to drop retail compatibility of mods that are FS1 conversions. The only real exception to this is ST:R, but if the design goal was to make it in the spirit of FS1, what do you expect? It is a sound design approach to add FSO capabilities through tbm files, like FSPort and ST:R does.

As long as it is done properly without debug errors. Fluid mediavps doesn't help, but there should be plans to make FSPort mediavps independent which solves that problem.

Now, the other mods. Does any one of them have retail compatibility anymore? With exception of the old ones like Derelict, Twilight and what have you. At least I don't know of any new(ish) mods that tries to keep retail compatibility with bloody teeth and nails. Hence I suspect this is directed at FSPort and should be addressed as such. The matter should be handled internally. But in the case of FSPort, I don't know what good it does.

If I am wrong, please name a mod other than aforementioned that is keeping retail compatibility. And I suspect that mods that aren't getting updated by anyone won't qualify, such as Derelict. If someone were to make total overhaul of Derelict, I don't see any reason to keep retail compatibility as long as the overhaul makes missions themselves use FSO features.

[headdie]

Thb i am struggling to understand what you are asking for?

- For mods the general rule is to build to the latest stable build, e.g. 3.6.12,

- If someone wants to play as retail all they have to do is use the retail exe so is not relating to FSO

- To be able to run the retail campaign the engine needs to be able to support retail code due to things like events, AI, etc changes in which would either badly unbalance missions or break them completely.

[SypheDMar]

Actually, I think this should be moved to the FRED thread just because I feel that lots of beginning FREDders would try to keep retail compatibility. Just a hunch.

[The E]

No. Making a retail-compatible mission is easy; just a matter of selecting retail-only sexps. However, what Mjn is talking about here is more an issue of modpack design. The retail limitations are much more painful there than on a pure FREDing level.

[General Battuta]

- To be able to run the retail campaign the engine needs to be able to support retail code due to things like events, AI, etc changes in which would either badly unbalance missions or break them completely.

He's not asking for any code or asset changes.

[mjn.mixael]

This is not directed at FSPort as that truly is an exception. There are mods aiming for retail compatibility but I am not at liberty to drag them in front of the community for a public debate. This is about of respect and knowing my place.

[General Battuta]

This is not directed at FSPort as that truly is an exception. There are mods aiming for retail compatibility but I am not at liberty to drag them in front of the community for a public debate. This is about of respect and knowing my place.

SCROLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

[mjn.mixael]

battuta, please read my opening thoughts...

[headdie]

At the end of the day it comes down to the preference of the mod creator/leader.  With the need for FSO to maintain compatibility with the retail campaign building a mod to retail constraints will always be an option, perhaps not the wisest, but an option all the same and not something a person can be made not to do.

I think most people here would recommend to use stable build compatibility as a project goal but it can't be forced.  If you are working with a project leader who is insisting on retail compatibility and it is causing you issues for your contributions all that can be done is to talk to the leader and explain the situation.  If retail is still insisted then do the best you can within those limits but perhaps create an advanced option so users who prefer to use FSO can take advantage of the fact, especially with your contributions being visual dependent i can understand that retail compatibility can hamper the quality of your output.

[General Battuta]

battuta, please read my opening thoughts...

i'll be good i'll be good

[mjn.mixael]

At the end of the day it comes down to the preference of the mod creator/leader.  With the need for FSO to maintain compatibility with the retail campaign building a mod to retail constraints will always be an option, perhaps not the wisest, but an option all the same and not something a person can be made not to do.

I think most people here would recommend to use stable build compatibility as a project goal but it can't be forced.  If you are working with a project leader who is insisting on retail compatibility and it is causing you issues for your contributions all that can be done is to talk to the leader and explain the situation.  If retail is still insisted then do the best you can within those limits but perhaps create an advanced option so users who prefer to use FSO can take advantage of the fact, especially with your contributions being visual dependent i can understand that retail compatibility can hamper the quality of your output.

The issue here isn't so much my personal contributions at all actually. More specifically, I see campaigns like Vassago's Dirge in the same light as movies like Star Wars. Where would the film industry be if we didn't continually push the envelope? And as such, I see sticking to retail compatibility in the same light as making a film today but only using film capabilities from the 50s.

More notably, I don't know how many people would care to watch a film made that way anymore. And this is where the bulk of my point lies. There are several mods that I very much want to see succeed, but I don't think that they can stand next to HLP's best while holding the retail compatibility flag.

[headdie]

Sorry, i miss understood your OP and i might still be on the wrong line here, if so i apologise again.

I suppose for some the enjoyment of mod making comes from challenging themselves.  In terms of output I suppose it is harder to put the polish in compared to 3.6.12 compatibility and the visuals wont look as good if it is played that way but it still comes down to personal preference of the person(s) in charge of creating the mod and the ability for a mod/campaign creator to do as they please if inadvisable is one of the core principles of the community (just don't be surprised if you get jumped on as a result lol).

[mjn.mixael]

It accounts for much make than just visuals. There are hosts of sexps you can't use if you want retail compatibility. The secret in Vassago's Dirge for example. But you are correct. Mod leaders can do as they please. That's why I simple ask that they simply consider my points in light of the future and not the past.

[Sushi]

Thb i am struggling to understand what you are asking for?

I don't get it either.

[Hades]

Actually, I agree MjnMixael. Trying to preserve retail compatibility just because you run Windows 98 is silly, especially since anyone who knows of the mod, let's say FSPort, will know of the SCP as well. Also, I think there's some stuff in the mediavps that can't be changed for retail compatibility, although I'm not sure on this.

[Fury]

* Fury headdesks

This is stupid. FSPort maintains retail compatibility because it is nothing but conversion of FS1. FS1 did not have any FSO features, neither does FSPort. FSPort-mediavps is equivalent to FSU's mediavps. If a mod relies on something in fsport-mediavps, it is no longer retail compatible. If it doesn't, then it remains retail compatible while getting all the goodies delivered by fsport-mediavps.

Only when missions and gameplay utilized FSO features is it necessary to drop retail compatibility. But when those features do not change gameplay in any way, like mediavps, a mod can remain compatible with retail and still get all eyecandy from (fsport-)mediavps. Mods like Blue Planet cannot be retail compatible for the simple fact that their gameplay relies on features provided by FSO.

It would be hell lot of easier if FSPort wouldn't separate retail and mediavps assets, but its their decision and there is no reason why they cannot have both as long as they are dedicated on supporting both. FSPort has gotten ****loads of flak for having sub-par track record with mediavps and FSO compatibility, that is a separate issue altogether.

[Zacam]

MediaVPs must preserve the Retail -feel- in so far as mission balance is concerned. If we changed out sexps for SCP variants, I doubt anybody would notice unless it broke the missions behaviour. And I prefer that the missions in the MediaVPs retain all  the original data entry in the Retail missions, but for SCP specific features, we don't ";;FSO" tag them to hide them from the Retail exec. That is what playing with "no mods" is for, or at a minimum, with MV_Root (± MV_Effects).

Though, due the model complexities and the image formats now supported, there would be no realistic way that the MediaVPs could be made to run on the Retail exec. -Some- Enhancements could be provided, but they would be severely limited in scope.

And besides, the FSU/MediaVPs are purposed with utilizing SCP Enhancements when and where we can to the best that we can. Barring anything that would completely cause for a mission refactoring (though there is some debate as to how to "fix" some "broken" Retail missions)

Edit: And I fully support Fury's (ninja) post sentiments.

[Nuke]

retail compatibility is something modders shouldn't be concerned about. everything about retail compatibility has always been about making the engine compatible with the retail data. not making mod data compatible with the retail engine. its lunacy to do that just on the grounds of bugfixes available in the newer executables, and the mod system. retail did not inform you of certain bugs in your tables. it also did not have any mod system to speak of, every retail mod involved vps in your root dir or files in your data dir, neither practice is acceptable for mod installation under the current engine. i cant really come up with a valid reason to make a mod that can run on retail. it would seriously cripple what you can do with the engine. install too many of those to the same fs dir and it will turn it into a convoluted mess in no time.

my advice here is to leave reverse compatibility to coders, and mod as close to the cutting edge as you can (just watch out for those experimental features that end up being so broke they get dropped).