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http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=77920.0
^In that thread, many speculated on what the UEF's strategy should be from here on out.
On the other side of things...if you were Steele (or some other GTVA military person), how do you think the war should go from a GTVA strategic standpoint? What would you do to win the war for them?
-One of the things I would do would be to try to get Vasudan military (warships) participation active in the war.
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I'm not so sure about the Vasudans.
First off, they are a bit of a wildcard. They have their own mindset and have a few things in common with the UEF. There is always the possibility that they might sympatise a bit too much with them, if they enter the conflict. On top of that it puts them in a better position to find out the truth about the supposed betrayal by the UEF, and if that happens, the GTVA will have a really bad crisis on their hand.
Furthermore it sends the signal that the Terrans can't defeat the UEF on their own, which puts the whole "Only we can protect our species from the Shivans" thing in question. If they can't even defeat an enemy they called unfit to survive in the universe on their own, how are they supposed to save mankind from the destroyers?
If I was in the GTVA high command, I'd try to crush them with all the tactical manouvering that happened in WiH 1, but without the planetary bombing and assasinations. I'd want to show the whole universe that we can win because we are better and stronger and don't need dirty tricks to win. I'd also be far more carefull in my conduct towards the Vasudans, to show them they can trust us.
In other words I'd try to reign in Steele some. Leave him a free hand for tactical and strategic decisions, but make sure he doesn't have the authority to gamble with the Vasudans like he did.
What would also help, if possible, is making the people of the captured parts of Sol see things the GTVAs way. If they can convert them, they can be used to weaken the UEFs remaining fighting spirit even further, or they can be used to strengthen resolve in the homeworlds. If those at home who are against the war hear from a converted enemy how the GTVA is right to conduct this war, it could sway those critics and rally fresh support from the GTVA citizens. Of course it also carries the risk of letting an enemy agent through, so they have to be extra carefull.
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As a team member (testing role atm, though I haven't really reprised that one yet...too busy not being at school. :P I /will/ get onto it though, boys!), there's not a lot I can say, but I'll give my general opinion as a bare-bones kind of deal without getting too into specifics. Be advised though, I actually haven't properly touched Freespace in close to a year, with BP being the same. I'm just going off what I remember from my biased GTVA4EVA days and if something's changed or I've forgotten something, feel free to correct me.
- In what we've seen, the GTVA certainly slides towards a 'conventional warfare' approach to things, but rarely in history has a side defending its home territory bowed to brute force. I know this is simplified, but we're seeing this in the Middle East. Though the Iraqi regime prior to the invasion was toppled, there exists an insurgency that's going to take some time to be quelled, if at all. Bottom line being that people don't like being invaded, and they ****in' hate being occupied. As ya' do. The only successful solution to any conflict between two forces of the nature of the GTVA and the UEF, who harbour differing ideologies (some would say opposing), is a diplomatic one, whether both sides realise it or not. The alternative to this, is annihilation.
- The fact that this war is including an ever growing insurgency is a factor to be watched. The UEF has the means to play the dirty game back on the other side of the portal.
- From the tactical point of view, on a per engagement basis, the combat doctrines differ rather significantly, as we've seen from the released material on the BP site. The GTVA requires a bit of a tactical rethink regarding countering a force well versed in combined arms approach. This change must be effected from both sides of the GTVA's tactical pyramid, in terms of the aircraft employed and the tactics used.
There are a few ways to counter a combined arms approach used by the UEF, and the GTVA has a number of options, should it be willing to retool as an entire force to fight the UEF. The presence of the Shivans, however, present the GTVA's greatest flaw. The GTVA cannot retool itself in much the same way as the forces of both the UK and the US are currently doing to specialize more-so in the COIN operations of the modern day, because the primary objective of the GTVA's military arm is to defeat the Shivans.
As far as we've seen, fighting the Shivans and fighting the UEF aren't that compatible in terms of tactical doctrine, and it'll be interesting to see how the GTVA adapts to this. I've cooled down a bit with my loyal GTVA-ness since my early days of commenting on this issue and I'm far more willing to consider both sides in a more objective manner, but I still do enjoy discussing this, albeit now for different reasons. Typing this has really whet my appetite for BP, actually, and thus I'm going to reprise my testing role right about now.
Brb updating SVN. :P
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Strategy? MESON BOMBS EVERWHAR! Break their sissy 'buntu spirits!
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It is my sincere belief that ever since the ill-fated first encounter, the GTVA should have surrendered and begged for aid. :) Maybe it's unfair to use the benefit of hindsight, but I suspect it would have been easier to dedicate their military to keeping Sol and GTVA citizens separated than to subdue the UEF. With their great propaganda machine, they could even fake the whole war as an excuse to keep everyone away from Sol.
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Yeah right. In BP continuity, the GTVA has used the carrot of an eventual return to Sol to keep its population happy while they went through a major economic crisis. Opening the gate, and then starting to shoot anyone attempting to pass through is not politically acceptable.
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They've been doing it for the past 18 months. They haven't collapsed yet.
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The GTVA also owns everything from Pluto up to the asteroid belt. There are plenty of GTVA citizens in Sol by this point, including everyone in the former Jovian Rim Concordat.
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Technically, from the GTVA point of view, all civilians in Sol are GTVA citizens under the oppression of the UEF and waiting for liberation.
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There are plenty of GTVA citizens in Sol by this point, including everyone in the former Jovian Rim Concordat.
Wat. The GTVA isn't letting those people leave Sol, and they're not letting civilians enter Sol.
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They've been doing it for the past 18 months. They haven't collapsed yet.
Yes, but they have also been able to point to the ongoing conflict and say "We're now engaged in a campaign to liberate Earth from the theocracy that is oppressing it." Telling people that they can't travel there right now is different from keeping it completely quarantined, and telling people that they've sent their best units and commanders over there to resolve the situation quickly will get people to quiet down some.
The GTVA also owns everything from Pluto up to the asteroid belt. There are plenty of GTVA citizens in Sol by this point, including everyone in the former Jovian Rim Concordat.
Those do not count, since they haven't emigrated to Sol via the jump node. This is about the several billion people in the GTVA who were told for 18 years that contact with Earth will be reestablished, and that that will revitalize the GTVA as a whole. Right now, the GTVA says that before that can happen, the crazy UEF leadership has to be removed.
My point was that Qent's suggestion to keep both populations quarantined from each other simply does not work. For several reasons, not the least of which being that the UEF, in its single system, has the same number of people living in it as the GTVA in total. Policing such a large population is impossible. Keeping the people in the occupation force that will eventually have to be rotated back out quiet about what they've seen on Earth or Mars or JRC is impossible.
There is no way for the GTVA to win this conflict without changing itself to accommodate some of the Ubuntu policies.
There is no way for the GTVA to accomplish their main objective (securing the UEF industrial base) without leaving most of the forces that make that industrial base work in place.
There is no way for the GTVA to stop people from trying to visit Earth, if not outright emigrate there short of shooting everyone who tries.
In short, if the GTVA wins this conflict, it will have to face some rather radical changes or go under.
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I thought it might be easier to keep UEF civilians in Sol than to keep GTVA civilians out of it, since they seemed pretty content; so the only policing they would have to do is of the GTVA crew who got far enough into Sol to find out about stuff like SOC Karunas, or that Steele is a fictional person, or whatever they used to keep up the illusion while they figure out how to merge the UEF and GTVA without both collapsing.
But I don't think any of that is compatible with the invasion plan from AoA anyway.
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To be honest, I don't think the Tevs strategy SHOULD change. They're winning.
Keep in mind, that we all know that Byrne is up to something. Steele doesn't. Bearing in mind what the GTVA knows, they're winning. Handily. They just ate the Wargods for Breakfast, Jupiter is in their hands, and the blitz seriously damage UEF war fighting capacity in the long run.
IF However, the SOC figures out that Byrne is working on some kind of auto-win (who knows what it is, but we have to assume he thinks it will help the UEF survive), then my solution is to jump a large fleet in. Particularly more logistics ships. more Logistics ships can support more destroyers. A raynor and a couple more titans, go for the throat. Blitz round 2. Losses would be hideous, but if Byrne as a super weapon cooking up, the GTVA needs to win ASAP. It would also critically weaken outer sectors, but again, the risk of losing Sol is to great. Might be difficult to find crews loyal enough to fight earth though..? I imagine officers with misgivings about the war are being kept well and truly away from the front.
Keep in mind that I'm a Tev fanboy.
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As I mentioned earlier, the Shivans are a big factor in the Terrans not already winning this thing. In fact, I'd say it's the single biggest factor. The GTVA can't commit a radically greater number of ships to the Sol theater because of the holes that opens up in its systems - which at any time need to be able to hold the line against a Second Incursion style invasion. Hell, given the increase between first and second incursions, they've probably factored in what needs to be there based on that rate of change for the Third incursion. From what we've seen in Part 1, the GTVA aren't willing to move from that.
NGTM-1R once made the point in passing whilst opening his testing comments that the GTVA could 'win the war in a day', but can't because of the presence of the Shivans. As far as I'm concerned, he's absolutely right (in military terms).
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Snarky strategy would to be clone Steele for mass Tev destruction.
Tevs and Steele are already curb stomping the remaining forces of the Federation. Idealy, keep the pressure up until either the government or populace snaps.
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As I mentioned earlier, the Shivans are a big factor in the Terrans not already winning this thing. In fact, I'd say it's the single biggest factor. The GTVA can't commit a radically greater number of ships to the Sol theater because of the holes that opens up in its systems - which at any time need to be able to hold the line against a Second Incursion style invasion. Hell, given the increase between first and second incursions, they've probably factored in what needs to be there based on that rate of change for the Third incursion. From what we've seen in Part 1, the GTVA aren't willing to move from that.
NGTM-1R once made the point in passing whilst opening his testing comments that the GTVA could 'win the war in a day', but can't because of the presence of the Shivans. As far as I'm concerned, he's absolutely right (in military terms).
Pretty much all that needs to be said. If the GTVA could fully commit to the Sol Theatre, it'd be a Curb-Stomp Battle in Tropes parlance.
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Actually it isn't all that needs to be said, but rather something that doesn't matter (for this thread).
The thread is about what the GTVA should do, so something they can't afford to do isn't really a matter for any valid strategy the GTVA might choose.
And such massive fleet movement would also have serious repercussions for the GTVA. Just sending everyone to fight against Earth is a big risk. The crew of the spearhead (14th battlegroup) was specifically and meticulously chosen and look at what happened. Of course they did go through a lot on the parallel universe, but I think you get my point.
Also if the population notices the absence of most of the military, they'll probably reacty very badly.
There is also the matter of logistics and the bottleneck at the node.
In short pulling their whole fleet, or even half their fleet for that matter, into Sol isn't a realistic option for the GTVA.
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Hence why I said "If they could". However, as it stands, what the GTVA is doing is working. They are winning by a country mile. The GTVA doesn't need to do anything to win, the UEF, however, does.
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The GTVA can't commit a radically greater number of ships to the Sol theater because of the holes that opens up in its systems - which at any time need to be able to hold the line against a Second Incursion style invasion.
It just occurred to me that unless they have enough ships in every system to stop 80 juggernauts, then however many they have is quite arbitrary. So what qualifies as having enough ships to hold the line against another incursion, if it's not enough to stop 80 juggernauts?
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Last time I checked, the Second Shivan Incursion didn't begin with 80 juggernaughts, but with a mere couple of rakshasa and a few wings of fighters. For a good while the GTVA didn't fight anything larger than the first Ravana. The GTVA probably bets on that delay to be able to either hold the line or evacuate the systems until reinforcements arrive. 2-3 corvettes per system is probably enough, with a destroyer at, at most, one inter-system jump away.
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Not having all your forces lined up behind a single bottleneck (the Sol-Delta Serpentis portal) also helps in getting your fleet to the hotspot in time to do some good.
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All I was saying is that if they become aware of Byrne's up and coming project would they be justified in risking a Shivan incursion in order to go for the throat? The ships would be away for maybe 5 weeks total. I'm not saying it would be optimal, but they may find themselves between a rock and hardplace. The GTVA simply CANNOT lose the war in Sol. Or the GTVA will collapse since the motivation for the populace to stay loyal just went up in smoke
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Really wild guesswork: They Tevs have most likely a whole fleet without a proper home system, 'cause it went straight to hell.
Maybe, just maybe, they could commit these homeless bunch of ships, when the time is right for an all out attack.
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I... don't really think they let a whole fleet sit idle for 18 years just because the system to which they were assigned was lost. They're tied up too.
Actually, which fleet was the Carthage from, originally?
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Guess it is not known which fleet the Carthage belonged to.
Furthermore, the 3rd fleet would be in rather bad shape after the incursion...right now I guess the third will linger in a system next to Capella, hell bent on revenge against the Shivans...
I would love to see the good old Aquitaine as a CE destroyer like the Carthage, maybe with additional turrets like shown in that ani from the retail campaign.
Well, I guess every single one of us has already pitted several Tev ships against that of the UEF, so, the Tevs would need several big assets to finish the UEF off, as well as loads of Ares armed to the tooth with trebs and the stuff.
And all of us know how many trebs it need to take out even one launcher of a Solaris.
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My guess would be that, what little was left of the 3rd fleet, was used to fill some of the gaps the Shivans and NTF opened up in other fleets. Though with the massive losses, 3rd fleet alone won't be enough to completely fill up all other fleets back to what they used to be.
All I was saying is that if they become aware of Byrne's up and coming project would they be justified in risking a Shivan incursion in order to go for the throat? The ships would be away for maybe 5 weeks total. I'm not saying it would be optimal, but they may find themselves between a rock and hardplace. The GTVA simply CANNOT lose the war in Sol. Or the GTVA will collapse since the motivation for the populace to stay loyal just went up in smoke.
The problem is, if the entire fleet is gone for five weeks, they will propably have massive riots pretty much on every planet.
In my opinion, making sure the general population feels protected from the Shivans at all times is even more important than winning in Sol. If they lose the Sol system there will be major malcontent, but at least there would be plenty of people blaming the UEF for it. Maybe those people will enable the GTVA to keep it together.
If they just pull every ship into Sol, people probably won't care why they were abondened by the GTVA. In this case I doubt there is anything that can be done aginst the economic and political collapse.
But I don't think it will ever be necessary for the GTVA to get such massive reinforcements into Sol anyway. Byrne believes the UEF can't win this was with force, so I highly doubt the secret project is a superweapon or supership or anything that would scare the GTVA so badly as to abonden their vilig against the Shivans.
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Guess it is not known which fleet the Carthage belonged to.
Actually, it is known (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Famous_Persons_in_Blue_Planet#Anita_Lopez), if you read Admiral Lopez' wiki entry.
Furthermore, the 3rd fleet would be in rather bad shape after the incursion...right now I guess the third will linger in a system next to Capella, hell bent on revenge against the Shivans...
It has been 18 years since the Capella incident. Do note that in that time, there was a major reorganization of the terran fleet structure, which turned Fleets from combat units into purely administrative ones. The largest combat formation fielded in BP is the Battlegroup, a formation centered around one or two Destroyers supported by Corvettes, Cruisers, and logistics vessels. This structure, which was copied from the Vasudan Navy, is much more flexible, and better suited for the tasks the GTVA has.
I would love to see the good old Aquitaine as a CE destroyer like the Carthage, maybe with additional turrets like shown in that ani from the retail campaign.
Not very likely, given that the ships converted to Combat Eval duty are usually older ones that are nearing the end of their useful service life.
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Indeed. Keep in mind that the Carthage is at least 20 years older than the Aquitaine.
If anything, you'd be more likely to see the Aquitaine as part of the main GTVA battlegroups ala the Hood, Requiem, and Meridian.
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If you do the math, the Carthage is close to fifty years old by the time of BP. She is like the GTVA's equivalent of the USS Enterprise (CVN-65, not NCC 1701).
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In short pulling their whole fleet, or even half their fleet for that matter, into Sol isn't a realistic option for the GTVA.
Simply to be effective a warship must be capable of independent operations for a couple of weeks at the least, probably closer to a month. It would be entirely possible to surge the whole fleet into the system and then have most of it leave again in a week. It simply wouldn't be wise.
On the original subject:
The GTVA has to do two things. The first is eliminate the UEF as a fighting force. The second is to deplete or capture their stocks of supplies. A successful after frame requires uncontested control of the Sol spacelanes so that problem areas can be isolated and the interdependent network of colonies forced to submit to GTVA control or be starved into submission or otherwise deprived of needed resources.
This in turn means the GTVA needs to eliminate all combat spacecraft by destruction, depleting their supplies, or capturing them. We are not looking at a Middle East situation here. Spaceships are big and hard to keep operating, and it's already been established that the UEF has designed them as short-duration high-intensity combatants.
The UEF fleet will be fought to hurt it, rather than kill it, to place further stress on the logistics system. Logistics targets will be destroyed wherever practical. Once the UEF's space forces are out of beans, bullets, and black oil, there will be a mopping up period where they are attacked directly and either destroyed or captured.
After that, with the high ground lost forever, the UEF will inevitably surrender.
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In short pulling their whole fleet, or even half their fleet for that matter, into Sol isn't a realistic option for the GTVA.
Simply to be effective a warship must be capable of independent operations for a couple of weeks at the least, probably closer to a month. It would be entirely possible to surge the whole fleet into the system and then have most of it leave again in a week. It simply wouldn't be wise.
With realistic option I didn't mean wether it's possible. I meant that the GTVA high command would never do it because it's so unwise, as you put it.
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So...then what about the Phoenicia?
When I play the retail campaign she jumps out with 3% almost every time^^
So...what is the strategy of the GTVA?
They have send Steeles rather modern battlegruop, and I think I read something about that there are currently around four ships of the Titan and Raynor class each.
The Temeraire and the Orestes are supposed to be far away from Sol and the missing two of each class are most likely centered around Capella.
The Tevs would be better of sending in diomedes class corvettes with special forces fighters and the stuff.
A large assault against Byrnes project or any other UEF facility would be a phyric victory.
So, why not sending stealthys who could do the job or a jump in a wing of Ares pumping TAG Cs...
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The problem with that is that they would have to find the site where that secret project is being worked on first. Star systems are big places, hiding a few installations is pretty easy. Also, this assumes that it's based somewhere that can be reached. If it is stationed at Daedalus Base (Which is the big antimatter factory in close solar orbit), infiltrating it is very, very hard, destroying it practically impossible, and ultimately not wanted.
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And we're pretty sure the Tev have already thought about it and have sent SOC forces with stealth fighters in Sol. Remember what happened to the Elder in Deals in Shadows.
Those SOC are ready to strike whenever and wherever it is worth risking their cover to do so. Steele doesn't waste useful cards, especially when they're well hidden (remember the Imperieuse).
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I have a question, is that name "Anita Lopez" volition's original? or bp's forge?
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With realistic option I didn't mean wether it's possible. I meant that the GTVA high command would never do it because it's so unwise, as you put it.
But it does demonstrate the GTVA's logistics problem is flexible. There's a degree of slack inherent. If at some point the GTVA has need of another battlegroup or five for short term offensive action, or to smother a developing UEF counterthrust, the forces can be committed long enough to accomplish the task and then sent back to their normal postings.
If at any point the UEF starts to win or sets up a defense available GTVA forces can't crack, then the GTVA could commit to a short-term deployment of a large portion of available fleet assets to break them. From the GTVA's point of view, there's no way out and no win condition for the UEF. They can afford to take the strangulation strategy because the ability to crush their enemies with a hammerblow is still waiting up their sleeve.
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I have a question, is that name "Anita Lopez" volition's original? or bp's forge?
Anita Lopez is a BP creation.
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Ok then, that name is horrendous guys.
For me, a Latin-Spanish speaker... it's like a joke name, not sure how that plays for any other kind of Spanish.
And sorry for derailing the subject.
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Ok then, that name is horrendous guys.
For me, a Latin-Spanish speaker... it's like a joke name, not sure how that plays for any other kind of Spanish.
And sorry for derailing the subject.
Really? How?
Guess it is not known which fleet the Carthage belonged to.
Actually, it is known (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Famous_Persons_in_Blue_Planet#Anita_Lopez), if you read Admiral Lopez' wiki entry.
I was actually asking about its pre-Capella assignment.
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We know the Carthage was on standby in Capella when the first Rakshasa destroyed the GTC Vigilant at the GD node. It was most likely part of Capella's Third Fleet.
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Daedalus Base
I require more info :nod:
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Daedalus Base
I require more info :nod:
Hm, untill now I guess we did not have a name for that huge antimatter farm of the UEF in solar orbit...
But if this base is fated to end like it's namesake...I want to see the vig boom in a vid like sunglare^^
Edit: Wait...I think I mix this up with Ikarus...
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I can't remember hearing a solitary bugget about a Solar Antimatter farm.
Was it a tech-room blab?
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Techroom entries for all the UEF bombs and capship torpedoes. In short, Mercury has huge anti-matter factories that have been running for decades, and hence the UEF has masses of unused anti-matter for their boomite.
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I require more info :nod:
Daedalus Base is a station in solar orbit that is producing the majority of the antimatter used in UEF weaponry. It's a giant particle accelerator, heavily shielded against solar heat while at the same time using some of that energy to power itself. Capturing it intact is a major goal for the GTVA, however this task is nearly impossible due to the tightly restricted access and its well-secured location. The problem for any invader is that if your jump calculations are even a little off, you will find yourself outside Daedalus' shadow, which is immediately followed by catastrophic hull failures as the Sun burns away the Armor. And even if you do get the jump right, you're still facing a LOT of torpedo launchers primed and targeted at you.
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With realistic option I didn't mean wether it's possible. I meant that the GTVA high command would never do it because it's so unwise, as you put it.
But it does demonstrate the GTVA's logistics problem is flexible. There's a degree of slack inherent. If at some point the GTVA has need of another battlegroup or five for short term offensive action, or to smother a developing UEF counterthrust, the forces can be committed long enough to accomplish the task and then sent back to their normal postings.
If at any point the UEF starts to win or sets up a defense available GTVA forces can't crack, then the GTVA could commit to a short-term deployment of a large portion of available fleet assets to break them. From the GTVA's point of view, there's no way out and no win condition for the UEF. They can afford to take the strangulation strategy because the ability to crush their enemies with a hammerblow is still waiting up their sleeve.
While I agree with you, that they can send a few more ships or even battlegroups, they can't afford to send too many ships. Granted, I didn't think about the "stamina" of the GTVA ships before, but the other problems still remain.
The need to keep a strong enough force to counter a Shivan attack, the need to make the people feel safe, the need to keep the fleet mobile and ready instead of putting them all behind a single bottleneck.
And there is the matter of fighting morale and loyality. The current Sol forces were carefully selected. The more you send in, the bigger the risk of getting something like what happened with the 14th BG again.
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Daedalus Base is a station in solar orbit that is producing the majority of the antimatter used in UEF weaponry. It's a giant particle accelerator, heavily shielded against solar heat while at the same time using some of that energy to power itself. Capturing it intact is a major goal for the GTVA, however this task is nearly impossible due to the tightly restricted access and its well-secured location. The problem for any invader is that if your jump calculations are even a little off, you will find yourself outside Daedalus' shadow, which is immediately followed by catastrophic hull failures as the Sun burns away the Armor. And even if you do get the jump right, you're still facing a LOT of torpedo launchers primed and targeted at you.
This is the mission godrays were made for.
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That reminds me so much of that one missin in Homeworld 1.
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While I agree with you, that they can send a few more ships or even battlegroups, they can't afford to send too many ships. Granted, I didn't think about the "stamina" of the GTVA ships before, but the other problems still remain.
Oh, I won't pretend it's not a balancing act, but it does set forth clearly that the GTVA has options beyond what's currently in Sol and is likely to exercise them if things go badly. There are risks to it, but there is also a point where the risk of losing the fight for Sol is more of a problem than a hypothetical Shivan attack.
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Last time I checked, the Second Shivan Incursion didn't begin with 80 juggernaughts, but with a mere couple of rakshasa and a few wings of fighters. For a good while the GTVA didn't fight anything larger than the first Ravana. The GTVA probably bets on that delay to be able to either hold the line or evacuate the systems until reinforcements arrive. 2-3 corvettes per system is probably enough, with a destroyer at, at most, one inter-system jump away.
Laporte mentions in Post Meridian that the Tevs have two dozen Hecates. That's enough to put a destroyer in every known GTVA system save three, even without the help of the Orion/Titan/Raynor classes or the entire Vasudan armada.
As for the GTVA's strategy, I think Steele has a better grasp on the situation that even we do. If the Imperiuse has been tucked away in the Kuiper Belt since Darkest Hour--and it's reasonable to assume it has been, since you're up against its fighter wings in the very next mission--then I have to wonder why he kept it hidden, rather than shock-jumping the Eris or Toutatis during one of their sorties to buy time for the Wargods. The only thing I can come up with is that Steele is fully aware of Byrne's UESD Nemesis secret project, and that he wanted the Imperiuse to be a secret trump card, and only exposed it because he had no other option to save the Carthage.
I would say push while the UEF is still reeling. The sooner 2nd Fleet Mars and 3rd Fleet Jupiter are broken, the sooner the GTVA can actually focus on Earth. Assuming, of course, it doesn't push Laporte over the edge...
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The Imperieus was badly damaged (which made the UEF believeit would be pulled back into GTVA space) and without the repair capabilities of Delta Serpentis it probably wasn't finished, when the Toutatis made it's interventions.
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Last time I checked, the Second Shivan Incursion didn't begin with 80 juggernaughts, but with a mere couple of rakshasa and a few wings of fighters. For a good while the GTVA didn't fight anything larger than the first Ravana. The GTVA probably bets on that delay to be able to either hold the line or evacuate the systems until reinforcements arrive. 2-3 corvettes per system is probably enough, with a destroyer at, at most, one inter-system jump away.
Especially since the New Generation 'vettes are made for shockjumping and one-shotting anything up to a Demon/Ravana.
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Aboard GTD Atreus
"You want me to what?"
"I don't want you to do anything. I'm giving you a direct order to 'do what'. But I want you to understand why I'm giving that order."
"Sir, I am accustomed to receiving orders from you that make a minimum of sense. I am not accustomed to those orders putting my crews - "
"Let me make something clear to you. You are one of the finest officers I have ever had the pleasure to command. You make your ships perform in ways that I probably could not manage at my finest."
"Sir, I appreciate that, but - "
"I am not finished. If I give you a direct order to fly your ships into a solar flare, you will obey that order. You will obey it whether I give you a seventy-page strategic directive explaining our urgent need for a fleet of ghost ships or a simple six-word coded imperative. You will obey the order with alacrity and without question, and you will do so with enthusiasm and skill. If you cannot meet these standards then you are not the woman I need in command of my point battle group."
"Sir."
"We are not like the enemy. Orders are not optional in this fleet. There's too much on the line for us."
"Sir."
"Do you want some coffee, Anita?"
"Please, sir."
"Have you read Contingency MORPHEUS?"
"I don't have the clearance, sir."
"A piece of advice? Pray to whatever force you believe in that it stays that way. It's a nightmare you don't get to wake up from."
I came to believe that Steele ordered the "Carthage Clan" to put it's lives on the line, so the UEF would send assets after them.
Maybe he even hoped that it would be the Toutatis herself and the Imperieus lied in wait untill the Feds rose to his bait, what they did in form of the Wargods.
Since the Solaris-ships are not deployed that easily, the Wargods...well...
Steele took his queen out of the game to capture...let's say...three bishops?
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Ha, wasn't even a Queen. That'd be the Imperiouse or Serkr Group, methinks. The Carthage would be some other power piece, yes, but not the Queen.
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You're forgetting that Serkr was engaged with the big T while Delande Est was happening.
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Then, it is lost. Or heavily damaged.
Neither is shown in the ending movie.
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Then, it is lost. Or heavily damaged.
Neither is shown in the ending movie.
Part of Serkr is shown with the Imperiuse in the final cutscene.
I also doubt the BP team would kill one of the players' nemesis (Serkr) off screen.
On a sidenote, if Daedalus base is in close solar orbit how come they didn't receive the Indus' distress beacon? or did they just radio the Fedayeen and let the indus wait without telling them? I knew the UEF were full of cold bastards, TEV4LYFE
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Not Serkr, the Toutatis.
As for what the GTVA should do, what about continuing Elder assassination missions?
At worst, they'll despair and give up.
At best, they'll rage, forget tactics and charge... right into every beam weapon in Sol.
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You're forgetting that Serkr was engaged with the big T while Delande Est was happening.
Not forgetting. I'm just saying that Carthage was hardly Steele's queen piece in theater.
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On a sidenote, if Daedalus base is in close solar orbit how come they didn't receive the Indus' distress beacon? or did they just radio the Fedayeen and let the indus wait without telling them? I knew the UEF were full of cold bastards, TEV4LYFE
Suns are big places :P
Big, noisy places at that. The Fedayeen have a few advantages that helped them find the Indus that noone else has.
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Highly classified, that we'll find out in WiH2, right?
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On a sidenote, if Daedalus base is in close solar orbit how come they didn't receive the Indus' distress beacon? or did they just radio the Fedayeen and let the indus wait without telling them? I knew the UEF were full of cold bastards, TEV4LYFE
Suns are big places :P
Big, noisy places at that. The Fedayeen have a few advantages that helped them find the Indus that noone else has.
Buttttt I like to think of the UEF as evil ;)
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Nobody will prevent you to hate the good guys, as long as you do it for defendable reasons.
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Nobody will prevent you to hate the good guys, as long as you do it for defendable reasons.
O_o
EDIT:
I think I / you / we / are / is missing something here.
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Oh look, the sarcasm. It flew completely over your head.
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Nobody will prevent you to hate the good guys, as long as you do it for defendable reasons.
O_o
EDIT:
I think I / you / we / are / is missing something here.
!!Sarcasm and oversimplification warning! Please don't take the following text literally or even seriously!!
There are only good guys in BP. Noone is evil! The GTVA tries to save Humanity, the UEF tries to protect their way of life, the Gefs try to save the planets, the Vishnans try to preserve the balance and the Shivans punish the destroyers, so the coming generations get a chance at live.
On a sidenote, if Daedalus base is in close solar orbit how come they didn't receive the Indus' distress beacon? or did they just radio the Fedayeen and let the indus wait without telling them? I knew the UEF were full of cold bastards, TEV4LYFE
They could have ended up on the directly opposite side of the sun. There is no way you can hear a distress call "through" the sun. Also Daedalus was apperently made as a factory for antimatter, not as a listening or spying post.
There is of course the possibility that they did get the distress call and the Fedayeen were simply faster in getting there or they were ordered not to intervene, because a rescue ship was already sent.
Or they simply didn't have any ship there that was capable of helping in the first place. A freighter full of explosives isn't exactly something I'd want anywhere near such a hot and iradiated place like unprotected, low sun orbit.
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I didn't say they should scramble a rescue I just thought it would be cruel of them to get that transmission, call up the Fedayeen and then not even radio the indus to say 'hey pal, help is on the way'
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Ha, wasn't even a Queen. That'd be the Imperiouse or Serkr Group, methinks. The Carthage would be some other power piece, yes, but not the Queen.
I actually meant the Imperieuse when I talked about the Queen.
Pretending the Queen is out of the game and promote the Carthage for the time being, it is the perfect bait, 'cause, as we know, the UEF wanted desperatly to deal a heavy blow to the TEVs...Damn shame Steele lured them into his trap.
Considering the Deadalus base...the Tevs are able to jump meson bombs, while they won't send a meson bomb to said base and demand them to stand down, what about a realy huge EMP?
We know the Tevs got EMP missiles, but what about a meson bomb sized EMP warhead, which would simply disable the whole defensive systems, so they can jump in and destroy them?
And does that mean that the UEF has Mjolnir like torpedo platforms?
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Ha, wasn't even a Queen. That'd be the Imperiouse or Serkr Group, methinks. The Carthage would be some other power piece, yes, but not the Queen.
I actually meant the Imperieuse when I talked about the Queen.
Pretending the Queen is out of the game and promote the Carthage for the time being, it is the perfect bait, 'cause, as we know, the UEF wanted desperatly to deal a heavy blow to the TEVs...Damn shame Steele lured them into his trap.
Considering the Deadalus base...the Tevs are able to jump meson bombs, while they won't send a meson bomb to said base and demand them to stand down, what about a realy huge EMP?
We know the Tevs got EMP missiles, but what about a meson bomb sized EMP warhead, which would simply disable the whole defensive systems, so they can jump in and destroy them?
And does that mean that the UEF has Mjolnir like torpedo platforms?
Wouldn't an EMP risk damaging the heat shields? the Tevs want that plant badly
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Ha, wasn't even a Queen. That'd be the Imperiouse or Serkr Group, methinks. The Carthage would be some other power piece, yes, but not the Queen.
I actually meant the Imperieuse when I talked about the Queen.
Pretending the Queen is out of the game and promote the Carthage for the time being, it is the perfect bait, 'cause, as we know, the UEF wanted desperatly to deal a heavy blow to the TEVs...Damn shame Steele lured them into his trap.
Considering the Deadalus base...the Tevs are able to jump meson bombs, while they won't send a meson bomb to said base and demand them to stand down, what about a realy huge EMP?
We know the Tevs got EMP missiles, but what about a meson bomb sized EMP warhead, which would simply disable the whole defensive systems, so they can jump in and destroy them?
And does that mean that the UEF has Mjolnir like torpedo platforms?
Wouldn't an EMP risk damaging the heat shields? the Tevs want that plant badly
You got a point...I thought, don't ask my why, the heat sield was something like a huge umbrella...but this wouldn't work...so a EMP would kill the whole station...damn thos Feds, they're smart^^
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Wait, how do we know it's not some big metal umbrella? I was really hoping for a battle in the literal shadow of this thing what with the new graphical effects and all.
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At this point, you don't know.
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I imagine it to be inspired by the film Sunshine.
Which is a good thing.
Also.............why can't Tev recon probes / observation/Awacs/Recon flights be able to narrow down the location of Daedalus?
The Fadayeen Frigate was able to approach the Indus without Roasting, is Daedalus a LOT closer?
Also request Daedalus split :D
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Note that Masyaf was undamaged, and a Narayana, and not all that long on station. As for narrowing down locations, let me introduce you to a novel concept in FreeSpace called scale. Suns are huge. Suns are noisy. Hiding something close to one is easy. Unless you happen to have very capable observatories in place that can monitor the Sun very closely for some time without burning out, your chances of catching a glimpse of a very small station in its orbit are very very slim.
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Why not use exoplanet finding techniques to get a good guess of where the station is? I'm sure the GTVA has more advanced instruments and more refined techniques to do something like that than we have now.
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Actually, they probably wouldn't. Remember, the main means of finding new planets in FS is to go through a subspace node and look what's on the other end. Detecting exoplanets is mainly of academic interest, if it actually still exists.
In addition, exoplanet finding techniques are made to find objects that are several thousand kilometers in circumference travelling on orbits that are roughly equivalent to orbits of terrestrial planets, finding something that is much smaller than a planet that is travelling on an orbit that is inside Mercury's is way harder.
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Snipes can doooo eeeet!!
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Snipes is deeeeeeeead!
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Only because a ship is named after him?
Maybe he is the head of SOC or something^^
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Well....... If we (Tevs) can locate random hidden cargo depots and the like. I'd hope wecan apply some practical SOC experience (hopefully there are some of our agents already amongst the UEF) to finding the massive MASSIVE MASSIVE heat-proof dutch cap in space :yes:
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Dekker: Remember what I said about scale? You just demonstrated that you have absolutely no ****ing clue about it.
Locating cargo depots is easy, because all you have to look for is for subspace exits. The depots we've seen so far have all been in rather empty areas of space, away from big radiation sources like a sun. By putting something so near to a star, you can pretty much guarantee that any signal emanating from your position will be scrambled to hell. Yes, Daedalus is massive compared to anything else humans have put into space. But compared to the Sun, it is still less than nothing. Yes, it has an energy output. But compared to the Sun, it is negligible, and lost in the noise.
So, Dekker, please remember that we're playing by semi-realistic rules in BP, not the GTVA-Wankfest rules you want to have.
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Nah, SOC is too busy murdering civilians leaders to worry about practical military targets.
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As of now I thought the murder of the elder was ordered and carried out by Steeles men, Serkr like guys in stealthies...
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I have been confirmed a while ago on IRC by a BP team member that the Pegasi in Deals in Shadows were SOC pilots. I'm pretty sure that a man the importance of Steele can request SOC support for such sensitive situations.
Ahem. Back to topic.
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:0
Handbags out?
Well excuuuuuuuse me ;)
*hug and peck on the cheek*
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:0
Handbags out?
Well excuuuuuuuse me ;)
*hug and peck on the cheek*
*Detects a Dekker leaving Trollspace on sensors*
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Ha, wasn't even a Queen. That'd be the Imperiouse or Serkr Group, methinks. The Carthage would be some other power piece, yes, but not the Queen.
I actually meant the Imperieuse when I talked about the Queen.
Pretending the Queen is out of the game and promote the Carthage for the time being, it is the perfect bait, 'cause, as we know, the UEF wanted desperatly to deal a heavy blow to the TEVs...Damn shame Steele lured them into his trap.
Considering the Deadalus base...the Tevs are able to jump meson bombs, while they won't send a meson bomb to said base and demand them to stand down, what about a realy huge EMP?
We know the Tevs got EMP missiles, but what about a meson bomb sized EMP warhead, which would simply disable the whole defensive systems, so they can jump in and destroy them?
And does that mean that the UEF has Mjolnir like torpedo platforms?
Wouldn't an EMP risk damaging the heat shields? the Tevs want that plant badly
not to mention shutting off the containment for the antimatter....
boom.
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I didn't say they should scramble a rescue I just thought it would be cruel of them to get that transmission, call up the Fedayeen and then not even radio the indus to say 'hey pal, help is on the way'
Oh yes, lets send a transmission to a dying ship to let them know we're coming to get them when we know the enemy can intercept such messages... :rolleyes:
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Nah, SOC is too busy murdering civilians leaders to worry about practical military targets.
Civilian leaders with a highly infectious and dangerous phylosophy, that can't be allowed to survive the war.
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I didn't say they should scramble a rescue I just thought it would be cruel of them to get that transmission, call up the Fedayeen and then not even radio the indus to say 'hey pal, help is on the way'
Oh yes, lets send a transmission to a dying ship to let them know we're coming to get them when we know the enemy can intercept such messages... :rolleyes:
The same way the enemy can detect the omnidirectional 'OMFG HELP US WE'RE DYING' transmission. The Indus just escaped a major ambush. There is bounty on the pilots heads. You don't think steele would want them alive? Comon now, what would've happened if the Masyaf (sp?) jumped in, launched its shuttles and then a corvette pack exited subspace guns at the ready? one transmission to the indus to shut them up would be smarter - by your OWN logic of the risk of GTVA interception
Didn't we just get done discussing the fact that suns are noisy places with lots of radiation? The odds of the tevs intercepting that transmission are slim to none.
Nah, SOC is too busy murdering civilians leaders to worry about practical military targets.
I wonder what the Fedayeen does? Their tech entry is pretty shady.
Also which ship is named after snipes? I mustve missed it, can someone let me know? :) thanks
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I didn't say they should scramble a rescue I just thought it would be cruel of them to get that transmission, call up the Fedayeen and then not even radio the indus to say 'hey pal, help is on the way'
For 99% of the UEF, Fedayeen are nothing more than a rumour. Makes it unlikely for anyone to just "call them up" :p
Also which ship is named after snipes? I mustve missed it, can someone let me know? :) thanks
A Deimos corvette in the Artemis Station intro has the ship name and nameplate GTCv Snipes. However since the ship is barely seen from far away in the cutscene and I don't think its nameplate is visible at all due to LODs, the canonicity of this is debatable (and may have already been debated, someone from the BP team might have said "if it's in the files, it's canon" at some point)
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Ah ok thanks. Even if it is Snipes, doesn't mean hes dead. Wasn't Christopher Snipes his codename?
NEW CONSPIRACY THEORY: STEELE IS SNIPES
Probably not though, I'm just to lazy at this time of night to go read Steele's tech room files.
And if Daedelus base is so friggen beastly and secure, not to mention important, I'm going to assume that the odds of someone high up in the station's command structure knowing of the Fedayeen's existence is measurably higher then your average UEF station. Personal opinion though.
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Oh, and I once asked on IRC how strong the defenses of the Mercury antimatter factory were, and the answer was along the lines of "what do you think the Masyaf was defending when they received the Indus distress call".
Since "listening is [their]... speciality", I don't think anyone else than the Masyaf around Daedalus ever received the distress call against the sun's noise to begin with.
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A bounty is only useful if you're alive to spend it. The Tevs going in to get the Indus would most likely have been assessed as there being insufficient reward vs the risk involved. It's known as a cost/benefit analysis.
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Considering SOC, the secret project and the question if they've agent infiltrating the Feds.
They most likely have, 'cause there was one aboard the elders transport, so how deep have they infiltrated the Feds?
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They most likely have, 'cause there was one aboard the elders transport.
I forgot about that. Bloody good point.
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Or maybe just really poor security, because they didn't think the GTVA would sink so low. Or most likely a UEF turncoat, rather than a GTVA infiltrator.
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I'dsay both are as good as each other.
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I'm not so sure about the Vasudans.
First off, they are a bit of a wildcard. They have their own mindset and have a few things in common with the UEF. There is always the possibility that they might sympatise a bit too much with them, if they enter the conflict. On top of that it puts them in a better position to find out the truth about the supposed betrayal by the UEF, and if that happens, the GTVA will have a really bad crisis on their hand.
Furthermore it sends the signal that the Terrans can't defeat the UEF on their own, which puts the whole "Only we can protect our species from the Shivans" thing in question. If they can't even defeat an enemy they called unfit to survive in the universe on their own, how are they supposed to save mankind from the destroyers?
Another aspect concerning GTVA strategy: Norbert made a good point here.
How should the Vasudans be engaged by the GTVA Terrans? Should the Vasudans be kept at a relative distance from the conflict so they don't find out about some of the stuff Steele did? Or is there some way to get more Vasudan assistance in this war to bring it to a close?
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Strap 'em to the outside of the hull of GTVA ships and use them as armour. :cool:
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Strap 'em to the outside of the hull of GTVA ships and use them as armour. :cool:
<3
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Ok then, that name is horrendous guys.
For me, a Latin-Spanish speaker... it's like a joke name, not sure how that plays for any other kind of Spanish.
And sorry for derailing the subject.
The name works perfectly well in English, which is the language that the character in question speaks.
Besides which, this story is set over three centuries in our future. I'm pretty sure that many of our names would have been utter nonsense in the late seventeenth century.
I'm not so sure about the Vasudans.
First off, they are a bit of a wildcard. They have their own mindset and have a few things in common with the UEF. There is always the possibility that they might sympatise a bit too much with them, if they enter the conflict. On top of that it puts them in a better position to find out the truth about the supposed betrayal by the UEF, and if that happens, the GTVA will have a really bad crisis on their hand.
Furthermore it sends the signal that the Terrans can't defeat the UEF on their own, which puts the whole "Only we can protect our species from the Shivans" thing in question. If they can't even defeat an enemy they called unfit to survive in the universe on their own, how are they supposed to save mankind from the destroyers?
Another aspect concerning GTVA strategy: Norbert made a good point here.
How should the Vasudans be engaged by the GTVA Terrans? Should the Vasudans be kept at a relative distance from the conflict so they don't find out about some of the stuff Steele did? Or is there some way to get more Vasudan assistance in this war to bring it to a close?
The GTVA Terrans would be much better served to bring more of their own ships into Sol and have the Vasudans pick up the slack in Shivan deterrence than to bring an equivalent number of Vasudan ships into the war directly. The Vasudans wouldn't like filling in for the diverted Terran fleets, but they'd like going to war even less. Plus, as mentioned before, there are reasons for the Vasudans to sympathize with the UEF. If that doesn't happen, the UEF's propagandists would have a field day with the GTVA bringing in aliens to brutalize their fellow humans.
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On a lighter note:
I'm relatively new to the forums here, but I did read someone joking years ago the Vasudans liked fish or something. Maybe offer to build Khonsu II an aquarium in exchange for the help of a few Hatshepsuts in Sol? ;)
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That must be one monstrously big aquarium...
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To play devil's advocate for what Steele did (not agreeing with what he did, just trying to understand Steele's justification):
Doesn't the Geneva Convention allow for the execution of spies/those convicted of espionage? Steele might say what the Elder was doing to an extent (trying to break up the GTVA). If the Elder was trying to conduct secret negotiations with the Vasudans, is it that surprising that Steele would try to stop the Elder from making it?
Or to put it another way: what should Steele/GTVA have done when they found out the UEF was trying to break up the GTVA via secret talks? Should they have just tried to capture the Elder instead?
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It would have helped them regain some of the political highground they lost when they started nuking civilians.
How I think the radio transmision would havr gone while it's being streamed to the rest of the GTVA:
"Sure we reduced a large number of women an children to their base atomic particles, but look! We're keeping this old guy alive, we aren't the bad gu-SOMEONE DUCT TAPE THAT OLD BASTARD DOWN NOW! I DON'T CARE IF HE NEEDS HIS PILLS, DO IT!"
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It would have helped them regain some of the political highground they lost when they started nuking civilians.
Or rather, attacking military targets that were surrounded by civilians. Behold, the Grey Area?
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It would have helped them regain some of the political highground they lost when they started nuking civilians.
Or rather, attacking military targets that were surrounded by civilians. Behold, the Grey Area?
Military targets, that if destroyed and caused the UEF to capitulate, would have meant that those civilian casualties would have been less than those incurred in the long run.
So, indeed - Behold, the Grey Area.
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It would have helped them regain some of the political highground they lost when they started nuking civilians.
Or rather, attacking military targets that were surrounded by civilians. Behold, the Grey Area?
Military targets, that if destroyed and caused the UEF to capitulate, would have meant that those civilian casualties would have been less than those incurred in the long run.
So, indeed - Behold, the Grey Area.
Thus ending a war theoretically much more quickly that could have dragged on for years had he not; possibly saving many lives.
Steele is a consequentialist hero.
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To play devil's advocate for what Steele did (not agreeing with what he did, just trying to understand Steele's justification):
Doesn't the Geneva Convention allow for the execution of spies/those convicted of espionage? Steele might say what the Elder was doing to an extent (trying to break up the GTVA). If the Elder was trying to conduct secret negotiations with the Vasudans, is it that surprising that Steele would try to stop the Elder from making it?
Or to put it another way: what should Steele/GTVA have done when they found out the UEF was trying to break up the GTVA via secret talks? Should they have just tried to capture the Elder instead?
First off, taking the Elder captive was out of the question. Steele tried (and apperently succeded) in making it look as if the UEF was trying to manipulate the Vasudans with the help of the Gefs. He made the Vasudans believe the assasination was just another plot by the Elders and that the video recordings were just forgeries.
If he then sends out some kind of demand to the UEF, that they have to fullfill, to get their Elder back, it would ruin that deception and probably cause a major political crisis between the Terrans and Vasudans.
As for the bombing of Luna, that is one thing we can't blame on Steele. That attack was the last order that Admiral Severanti gave in Sol (probably to try and save what was left of his career). If they really wanted to, the GTVA could probably blame the whole attack on him and say it was never officially endorsed.
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To play devil's advocate for what Steele did (not agreeing with what he did, just trying to understand Steele's justification):
Doesn't the Geneva Convention allow for the execution of spies/those convicted of espionage? Steele might say what the Elder was doing to an extent (trying to break up the GTVA). If the Elder was trying to conduct secret negotiations with the Vasudans, is it that surprising that Steele would try to stop the Elder from making it?
Or to put it another way: what should Steele/GTVA have done when they found out the UEF was trying to break up the GTVA via secret talks? Should they have just tried to capture the Elder instead?
First off, taking the Elder captive was out of the question. Steele tried (and apperently succeded) in making it look as if the UEF was trying to manipulate the Vasudans with the help of the Gefs. He made the Vasudans believe the assasination was just another plot by the Elders and that the video recordings were just forgeries.
If he then sends out some kind of demand to the UEF, that they have to fullfill, to get their Elder back, it would ruin that deception and probably cause a major political crisis between the Terrans and Vasudans.
As for the bombing of Luna, that is one thing we can't blame on Steele. That attack was the last order that Admiral Severanti gave in Sol (probably to try and save what was left of his career). If they really wanted to, the GTVA could probably blame the whole attack on him and say it was never officially endorsed.
Well, Severanti had done a pretty good job or turning himself into a butt monkey for that to happen. Not too mention nearly scrapping his destroyer and losing most of his escort forces in the process as well.
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If only the UEF had Holley as a pilot....
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She would've gotten herself killed, ultimately affecting nothing. Cue The E's argument of scale: UEF pilots die in droves every day, and still the war goes on.
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A block 4 Karuna in berserk mode might be just enough to turn the tide. On the other hand, most UEF weapons are very likely incompatible with berserk mode because of OPness issues. :(
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She would've gotten herself killed, ultimately affecting nothing. Cue The E's argument of scale: UEF pilots die in droves every day, and still the war goes on.
Yeah, but she uses Tacos as WMDs and doesn't afraid of anything.
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A block 4 Karuna in berserk mode might be just enough to turn the tide. On the other hand, most UEF weapons are very likely incompatible with berserk mode because of OPness issues. :(
Yeah, but she uses Tacos as WMDs and doesn't afraid of anything.
I'm sure Steele has contingencies for both events.
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Steele is the first and second beta tester.
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Steele is Gendo :p
[tangent]
Dawn = Misato.
[/tangent]
Laporte = Rei,
Laportes GF = Asuka.
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Steele is Gendo :p
[tangent]
Dawn = Misato.
[/tangent]
Laporte = Rei,
Laportes GF = Asuka.
:yes2: :nod: :yes:
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I'm sure Steele has contingencies for both events.
Not only that, he has contingencies for UEF having contingencies for his contingencies. :)
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Just for fun, I was thinking about ways the war could end and just for fun came up with this range (these are assuming no GTVA civil war or Shivan appearance):
1-Massive UEF victory (GTVA totally kicked out of Sol, with the UEF maybe having a beachhead in Delta Serpentis and GTVA has to pay massive reparations and whatnot)
2-Standard UEF victory (status quo ante bellum, maybe GTVA has to pay some reparations)
3-Status quo (the war ends as is...GTVA gets 'something' in Sol since they hold up to Jupiter currently)
4-Pyric GTVA victory (GTVA forces a surrender barely but faces a devastating quagmire)
5-Heavy GTVA victory (UEF surrenders after being beaten convincingly with relatively little insurgent/terrorist operations)
Is that a good gamut of options? (#5 admittedly sounds like wishful thinking but I couldn't think of anything else for the "best case scenario" for the GTVA)
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You forgot the one where Laporte gains control over the entire Terran population with her highly popular series of lesbian pornos and erotic writings. Due to the manner of victory when the shivan Sathani came, the terrans just ejected from their ships and punched through them with their super strong right arms. :P
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:eek2:
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You forgot the one where Laporte gains control over the entire Terran population with her highly popular series of lesbian pornos and erotic writings. Due to the manner of victory when the shivan Sathani came, the terrans just ejected from their ships and punched through them with their super strong right arms. :P
That really depends on whether her partner makes it to Part 2. :shaking:
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You forgot the one where Laporte gains control over the entire Terran population with her highly popular series of lesbian pornos and erotic writings. Due to the manner of victory when the shivan Sathani came, the terrans just ejected from their ships and punched through them with their super strong right arms. :P
Making campaign, brb
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Well, I was referring to endings by conventional military means, not ones involving psychic, emotional space lesbians. ;)
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Well, I was referring to endings by conventional military means, not ones involving psychic, emotional space lesbians. ;)
That's unconventional?! It's settled, once I become overlord of the universe, this shall be the only way all wars shall be fought...... With lesbians! And oil! And LESBIANS!
(Did I mentional the lesbians?)
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Oookaayyy...
While I'm not necessarily opposed to talking about lesbians in this thread, I kind of meant this thread to figure out ways that the GTVA could win. The lesbians in your scenario help the UEF. :p
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Oookaayyy...
While I'm not necessarily opposed to talking about lesbians in this thread, I kind of meant this thread to figure out ways that the GTVA could win. The lesbians in your scenario help the UEF. :p
Which (I believe) would ultimately help the GTVA in the end, if only in the aesthetics of their ships.
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Yes! Hence my strategy of immediate, unconditional surrender.
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http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=76500.0
This is the thread that I sort of got the inspiration for this thread from. I wanted to figure out what options the GTVA has.
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lesbians aside...
I think Steele would be wise to use Fabian tactics and just wear down the UEF.
The UEF has about 6 months worth of supplies to keep its ships going. If Steele were to back off on major offencives and focus on smaller sorties that didn't put any important assets at risk but just slowly wore them down the war would be won in 6 months.
also i could see the Mars colony defecting to the GTVA 'cause the only thing Byrne and the elders are worried about is keepin' Earth, safe stuff the rest of Sol
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Surrendering maybe, but not defecting. I don't think that's too likely either.
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The UEF has about 6 months worth of supplies to keep its ships going. If Steele were to back off on major offencives and focus on smaller sorties that didn't put any important assets at risk but just slowly wore them down the war would be won in 6 months.
This works in terms of principles if you reverse your logic.
If a side has only enough supplies that if the rate of decay is x, they will will be expended in six months, you defeat them in less time by increasing the rate that their supplies decay to x>. By mounting larger offensives against this side that cause greater losses than the current rate, the strain on supplies becomes such that the rate of decay becomes x>. This is as opposed to reducing this rate by mounting less often sorties. The key here is that stuff has to die.
The UEF can avoid this by using a Fabian strategy that minimizes the potential decay of their supplies (i.e. the loss of fighters, warships, and logistics vessels along the MSR) to ensure that the rate of decay = x.
To defeat the UEF, all the GTVA must do is maintain their current operational tempo for 6 more months. Whether this is possible, is another question entirely.
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I see your point about more intensive sorties but i still think that quantity of attacks over quality, so to speak, is the best way to go.
and when you say that stuff must die I think that a frigate constantly being attacked and therefore constantly having to be repaired would consume far more supplyes and equipment then no frigate at all. I know the ultimate objective is to destroy it but in this instance when you want supplies consumed as fast as possible making sure you don't completly destroy it is a great strategy.
oh and go Tev's
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I see your point about more intensive sorties but i still think that quantity of attacks over quality, so to speak, is the best way to go.
and when you say that stuff must die I think that a frigate constantly being attacked and therefore constantly having to be repaired would consume far more supplyes and equipment then no frigate at all. I know the ultimate objective is to destroy it but in this instance when you want supplies consumed as fast as possible making sure you don't completly destroy it is a great strategy.
I don't know about you, but a dead frigate, even one that isn't taking up supplies, is still a frigate that you never have to worry about again, and one less piece on the board that can intercept and **** up your moves. That's always desirable.
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I see your point about more intensive sorties but i still think that quantity of attacks over quality, so to speak, is the best way to go.
and when you say that stuff must die I think that a frigate constantly being attacked and therefore constantly having to be repaired would consume far more supplyes and equipment then no frigate at all. I know the ultimate objective is to destroy it but in this instance when you want supplies consumed as fast as possible making sure you don't completly destroy it is a great strategy.
oh and go Tev's
This is great if we take a very narrow view of the affair, a simple 'How does the GTVA maintain its operational tempo for 6 more months?' statement, but we have to look at the campaign we're undertaking here, and how this piece of the puzzle fits into it. And that's not meant to be a condescending introduction, but merely a fact, that the supply issue is only one part of the campaign.
Now, the campaign has a strategic objective: the capture of a planet, let's say. Now in this, the GTVA must commit a number of Offensive Operations: OFFOPS to achieve the strategic objectives. These consist of things like the denial of a tactical or strategic asset, or the acquisition of an entrance or facility. Opposing this, is the UEF's ability to commit its own OFFOPS and DEFOPS. The two most relevant factors that facilitate the execution of these operations are Fleet Integrity, and Supply.
And so looking at the relationship of the operations, fleet integrity and supply tells us that whilst the integrity of the fleet falls, the supply is more evenly distributed amongst the remaining vessels. This is a bad thing when we look at the war as the simple statement I begun with because the rate at which supply decays falls, but interpreting all of these factors tells us that a decline in the integrity of the fleets means a decline in the UEF's ability to wage successful operations (increased probability of an operational failure).
But, a ship's contents of beans, blankets and bullets also represents a slice of the overall supply in itself. By destroying a vessel, the GTVA not only hampers a fleet's integrity, but also the overall state of supply.
Thus, the most favourable outcome from GTVA OFFOPS is the destruction of UEF warships. Even better than this, are transport vessels.
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I don't know much at all about Naval warships, but I don't think that losing ships is more cost effective than not losing ships. There were American battle ships first laid in world war 2 which were used in the first Iraq war. Ships can be converted and reconverted much more easily than gathering the natural resources and providing the factory time to forge a brand new hull. Worse comes to worse, a logistics manager would make the call and decomission the ship for scrap metal and reassign her crew. Counting on the tevs being bad at math does not seem like a good strategy.
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If you destroy all of the enemy ships, then whatever supplies they have left over are useless, since there won't be ships for those supplies to service.
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I'm pretty much in agreement with the last few posts if I read them correctly.
Its bad for the UEF if they start losing their supplies. But the ultimate objective in a war is to destroy the enemies ability to fight. Whether that means blowing up their infrastructure, eating away their supplies faster than they can be replenished, or blowing up their ships.
Though its true that fewer warships means that per capita the fleet is better supplied, they still lost some of their ability to fight therefore it is still bad for them, and good for the Tevs.
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Going by the logic of the last few posts, would it not be best to destroy a large percentage of ships so that they can't afford to decommission any, then employ the resource draining tactic of constant 'bug bite' attacks so that they know that not only are there fewer ships being being resupplied, but if they find their location they can strike the resources in transit to the ship?
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I think the GTVA just strikes whereever the UEF leaves a gap in their defences, not particularly caring wether the UEF runs out of ammo or ships first, as long as they win.
With the kind of tactics and strategies used in WiH, neither side can choose their targets freely, without risking a devastating counterattack.
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Mostly because the GTVA is too paranoid/too cheap to deploy any more destroyers than they have already. (probably the second)
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No, they're really that paranoid about another Shivan incursion.
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GTVA can't deploy too many destroyers mainly for logistic reasons. I don't know how many Anemois they have, but by the looks of it, not nearly enough to pour the kind of forces they'd need to finish the war without weakening the rest of their territory.
Given the overall policy of the GTVA aside from the Sol theater, ie defending a known and controlled territory, I guess Anemois aren't exactly on the priority list of destroyer-grade hulls to produce. It looks like those things aren't exactly cheap either (as you would expect from a destroyer-sized vessel filled with expensive spare parts). If you assume that less than 1/4th of the Anemoi is used for spare parts, you still have 100 millions m^3 to fill. Just saying.
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Possibly.
I just think a smaller scale war right in the middle of their systems would be more crippling during a shivan invasion than a few weeks with weakened defenses while the UEF are curb stomped. Assuming they are capable of the deployment, the GTA would have to be a bit insane to hold back. Which is possible, they just seem slightly too competent for that.
[lol]
or they keep the UEF around so that they can test our their shiny new guns
[/lol]
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Between the drain on ressources, the possible backlash in public opinion and the casuality rates, I think we can rule that out.
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Going by the logic of the last few posts, would it not be best to destroy a large percentage of ships so that they can't afford to decommission any, then employ the resource draining tactic of constant 'bug bite' attacks so that they know that not only are there fewer ships being being resupplied, but if they find their location they can strike the resources in transit to the ship?
Well I don't see why a side on the offensive cannot do both. The primary objective of OFFOPS is to destroy the enemy's 'centre of gravity', and drawing on the relationship I described in my earlier post in the thread, by affecting both factors of fleet integrity and fleet supply they strike at the very heart of the UEF's centre of gravity (source of its ability to execute operations).
GTVA OFFOPS have the strategic objective of defeating this CoG by attacking the supply that give the physical assets strength whilst simultaneously damaging these physical assets. Thus the erosion of the CoG in conjunction with the suppression of any strength that the CoG is able to affect means that the UEF will be defeated much faster as these two factors in conjunction with each other provide a lower multiplier to the probability for operational success for the UEF than just supplies alone.
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Steele VS Byrne.
Rock Paper Scissors.
One round.
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Steele VS Byrne.
Rock Paper Scissors.
One round.
Fix'd
Rock - Paper - Scissors Roulette: Pico style
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This game joo mean? (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/310598)
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Rock Paper Scissors Lizzard Spock
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As for the bombing of Luna, that is one thing we can't blame on Steele. That attack was the last order that Admiral Severanti gave in Sol (probably to try and save what was left of his career). If they really wanted to, the GTVA could probably blame the whole attack on him and say it was never officially endorsed.
Consider that Steele may have known:
If I take aggressive action I make Severanti look bad.
If Severanti looks bad he will take aggressive action to try to salvage himself in the eyes of GTVA politicians.
If Severanti takes aggressive action he'll probably raid Luna.
If Severanti raids Luna he'll absorb the brunt of the PR fallout for nuking civilians.
I get Luna nuked, Severanti removed, and I dodge the PR blow.
Win win win.
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Thats more like a fractal tessellation of wins.
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win everything and than campaign 3 blue planet the invations part 1+2+3
if you like it the name of blueplanet 3
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**** it, let's just turn it into Star Wars.
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You wanted it, you got it:
(http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/14010259.jpg)
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Star wars campaign? I'd dig it.
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Star Wars and Blue Planet. One has only black and white, the other has only grey. One has crappy prequels the other great prequels (if you see FS1, STR and FS2 as the BP prequel trilogy :P).
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Swap the prequels and see how long Anakin lasts in a starfighter without R2 to do all the hard work. :drevil:
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To kind of sum up waht some in this thread have said so far, is this a decent summary of what people think the GTVA should do to try and win?
(in no particular order)
1-No more political assassinations
2-Don't charge in headlong looking to take out a Solaris
3-Work on taking out smaller UEF ships and supplies
4-Commit one more destroyer or two to Sol; Shivans may never come back but this is an important conflict where they could be used now
5-Don't try to force Vasudans into anything, maybe just ask for more logistical support
6-To avoid enraging the UEF population as much as possible, minimize the attacking of civilian targets unless they're vital to the UEF war effort somehow
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1- I'm pretty sure the Tev part of the GTVA is still in one piece thanks to assassinations and propaganda. Between the constant threat of the Shivans, friends dying against other Terrans in Sol, the economy at an every-time low, and Zods next door with a flourishing economy, the civilian Tev population is a powder keg ready to blow at any time.
2- Let's be honest : although the Tevs should of course try to avoid unnecessarily losses, they are not, contrary to the UEF, on the verge of logistical collapse, and, like Simms or I don't remember who said, they "can bleed corvettes left and right". Steele has shown with Darkest Hour that he is ready and willing to sacrifice a few ships to achieve important goals. If he gets an opening to wipe a Solaris out, he'll take it.
3- Yup. Like said before, the UEF is on the verge of logistical collapse. Anything that can aggravate that situation is welcome for the Tevs.
4- As stated several times in that thread or somewhere else, they can't just dispatch another destroyer to Sol. There is a logistical reason, because a destroyer battlegroup can't just pop in and get busy without supplies, ammo, fuel and whatnot, but if that was the only reason, I'm sure they could have found another Anemoi to take care of that. The real reason is : because Shivans can return any time, any place without warning, they need to ensure a sufficient military presence in their territory. Not only because of the threat alone, but to reassure the population ; after all, the GTVA's political strategy has always been to build a strong armada to defend their citizens.
They also can't afford to send a negative message by showing they can't handle a puny, crumbling fleet of pacifist and need to send several thousands more soldiers into the fray. Four destroyers in Sol is already a pretty large number, it's 1/6 of their fleet, and they're their best elements.
5- Steele has shown to be just as good in term of PR than he is on the battlefield, first by "letting" Severanti make his huge Luna mistake and get removed from command, and then by convincing the Zods to lend logistical support for a war they were originally trying to stay as clear from as possible. If he can pull the good strings to convince the Zods to lend more support without straining the relations between the two species, he will.
Another point being that the Zod admiral of the Shepseskaf was very quick and eager to "fall for it" and believe word-for-word what Steele spoon-fed him. I don't think all Zods share the opinion of the Emperor about staying away from the war. That Zod admiral might be of quite a belligerent nature, and try to find good occasions to beam some Feds.
6- That is true. The GTVA can't cover everything with propaganda, and they need to avoid worsening their image any further. Not to mention that officially, the GTVA considers all Terrans in Sol to be GTVA citizens under the oppression of the UEF, which means that killing civilians equals killing GTVA citizens.
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You forgot economic victory through the sales of Laporte's movie, Lesbian Space Warriors: Fireworks on the Flightdeck.
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We're trying to have a serious conversation here. Please get out.
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Disregaurding the UEFs secret weapon, and anything else that's going on - if the GTVA continued on its current course changing absolutely nothing, they'd be looking at victory in weeks, months maybe.
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Continuing on issue 4, it actually probably depends on what Byrne's secret project is. If it's some sort of super destroyer (UESD), then they may be forced to send in more ships to Sol if they want to maintain their gains up to this point.
On the other hand, it also depends on what the Vasudans do in the next part. If the Vasudans do send in more warships then the GTVA Terrans won't have to as much.
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It won't be any super-destroyer. The BP team has specifically avoided such things.
Sending more ships to Sol would be a great way for the GTVA to lose - they're biggest problem is political tension. Imagine you lived in the US, and it was at war, with say. . . Europe. Our economy at this point sucks, it's hard for a lot of people to afford basic things. At this point the US has 42 supercarriers and. . . lets say 300 destroyers. . . all poised to stop an all out attack from the Martians. . . but we're fighting Europe because they have what the government calls a "totalitarian government."
This is all well and good more or less, except that the war in Europe has lasted quite a while - and lots of people aren't coming home, and lots of ships have been damaged. Everyone is rather nervous that the Martians will come at any second and wipe everyone out, so no one wants to see any more American forces committed to the battle. When there's news of a destroyer being sent off to the Mediterranean, it's not such a big deal; there are lots of those, but what happens when the government announces it's sending more super-carriers?
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what happens when the government announces it's sending more super-carriers?
Absolutely nothing, if recent non-hypothetical wars are anything to go by.
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Well the one thing you fellas all should've noticed is that in these circumstances, you don't 'win'. You can destroy their force's centre of gravity, but the only solution there ever is to conventional warfare between such sides as these is a diplomatic, political one. All that needs to be done here is for one side to force the conditions that facilitate such a solution.
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I dunno man, if you blow up all of their ships they pretty much cant do ****.
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but the only solution there ever is to conventional warfare between such sides as these is a diplomatic, political one.
I guess in the spirit of this thread that would be Sol accepting GTVA sovereignty?
Or another possibility could be an arrangement somewhat similar to today's China-Hong Kong relationship (Sol gets 'special administrative region' status)
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Wouldn't happen. The very point of the war is for the Tevs to get their hand on Sol's industrial and logistical power, which is roughly equivalent to the Terran half of the GTVA as a whole (probably a bit less now that several shipyards and logistical bases have been nuked, but still). Plus, they've been promising their citizens they'll be able to go to Earth and reunite their families, first for after the activation of the portal, and then for after the end of the war.
They'll need and they'll want a solid military presence in Sol. Politically, and economically, they can't afford to let a single bit of independence to Sol. Officially, Sol is already a GTVA territory under the occupation of the enemy (they justify it by saying Sol was a GTA territory and the GTVA considers itself the legitimate successor of the GTA, and is supposed to get all the former GTA territories per the BETAC, but of course what they really care about is the PR side and the economical and industrial power).
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what happens when the government announces it's sending more super-carriers?
Absolutely nothing, if recent non-hypothetical wars are anything to go by.
And was there any technologically and numerically superiour enemy that constantly threatens to invade the USA during those actual wars? Sending warships away from the defense is no problem for the USA, because they aren't under threat by hostile military forces, but rather by terrorists, which you can't really intercept with warships.
Mars on the other hand was talking about a scenario where the USA was threatened by a hostile military (the martians), which didn't happen in reality since WW2.
But if you're so stuck on non-hypothetical settings for those hypothetical scenarios, imagine the USA sending two carriers, who up untill then were tasked with protecting the pacific coast, to invade Argentina during WW2.
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We're trying to have a serious conversation here. Please get out.
GOODNIGHT!
[attachment deleted by a ninja]
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Wouldn't happen. The very point of the war is for the Tevs to get their hand on Sol's industrial and logistical power, which is roughly equivalent to the Terran half of the GTVA as a whole (probably a bit less now that several shipyards and logistical bases have been nuked, but still). Plus, they've been promising their citizens they'll be able to go to Earth and reunite their families, first for after the activation of the portal, and then for after the end of the war.
They'll need and they'll want a solid military presence in Sol. Politically, and economically, they can't afford to let a single bit of independence to Sol. Officially, Sol is already a GTVA territory under the occupation of the enemy (they justify it by saying Sol was a GTA territory and the GTVA considers itself the legitimate successor of the GTA, and is supposed to get all the former GTA territories per the BETAC, but of course what they really care about is the PR side and the economical and industrial power).
Ohhhh, you better have a look at that again dude.
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Well, that's certainly a big part of the realpolitik reasoning for the war, isn't it?
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There is of course the "boo UEF are evil manipulators and brainwashers that are keeping all our former GTA citizens under their rule boo" part they have used in their propaganda, but the real objective of the GTVA from the very start (aka since they started building the Sol portal), aside from giving some hope to the population, was to get back all the industrial and logistical infrastructure that was lost in Sol when the jump node was severed.
And given the current state of the Tev economy after Capella, the construction of the Sol portal and 18 months of war, those critical ressources are all the more needed.
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Oh yes, that is true, I shall concede. I was looking at it from a POV regarding the Shivans and how the UEF fit into the GTVA's philosophy, but yes, you're right - mai bad.
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I don't think it's the only real objective, but it's certainly useful, and it even dovetails with their broader mission of preparing for a third Shivan incursion at all costs.
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what happens when the government announces it's sending more super-carriers?
Absolutely nothing, if recent non-hypothetical wars are anything to go by.
Mars on the other hand was talking about a scenario where the USA was threatened by a hostile military (the martians), which didn't happen in reality since WW2.
But if you're so stuck on non-hypothetical settings for those hypothetical scenarios, imagine the USA sending two carriers, who up untill then were tasked with protecting the pacific coast, to invade Argentina during WW2.
So the question you're asking is what would have happened in WW2 if we had openly adopted a policy of leaving Japan for latter while we devoted the bulk of our strength to defeating a country that possessed a green-water navy that lacked the range to pose any real threat to our own territory?
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Wait... I thought the whole point of the war was that the GTVA was scared that Ubuntu would turn the entirety of humanity into hippie pacifists that would get slaughtered by the Shivans, and that the industry was just a bonus. But I could be wrong; its been a while since I've read the fluff... =p
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There are several reasons why the war is happening.
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That was a factor too, forgot to list it. Although the "hippie pacifist" part is certainly a little exaggerated.
What is sure is that the Ubuntu belief system, and the UEF government system, while working like a charm in the confined borders of Sol, is inadapted to rule, economically, the much vaster territories of the GTVA. And, on the military front, the UEF, while not "pacifist" by any meaningful extent (you don't build three Solarises and superior fleet bombers for policing actions), isn't ready and/or willing, from the GTVA point of view, to make the sacrifices required to ensures the survival of humanity under a constant Shivan threat.
The ultimate goal of the GTVA is defending themselves against the next Shivan incursion. Had the UEF been committed to this objective in a comparable manner to the GTVA, a pacific solution might have been considered. Since it was not deemed the case, the GTVA is back to square one : conquering Sol to get their hands on the enormous industrial and logistical value of the system, in order to consolidate themselves in their original goal.
EDIT:
When the Sol portal was first opened, probes launched and data from the UEF public communications received, the Tevs had analysts working days and nights to figure out what was the best course of action to follow, from political, military and economic points of view. Keep in mind that their solution was originally to seize control of Sol in a single, masterly-organized manoeuvre with the 14th battlegroup, not to engage in a long, costly, system-scale war. I am pretty sure that, had the GTVA known the situation was going to escalate the way it did, they would have had to consider other options. However, after the AoA events, it was too late to come back on that decision.
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So the question you're asking is what would have happened in WW2 if we had openly adopted a policy of leaving Japan for latter while we devoted the bulk of our strength to defeating a country that possessed a green-water navy that lacked the range to pose any real threat to our own territory?
It wasn't really a question I asked. It was meant as a rethorical question to clarify, why I think you can't equate the current real political situation, with the metaphor Mars gave, or the UEF-GTVA situation.
Though I like the way you put it, since that also applys to the War in Heaven, to a high degree. While I wouldn't count the UEF fleets as "green-water navy", with their high maintanance and many ammunition-based weapons they can't possibly mount an effective invasion of GTVA space, even if they ever manage to drive the invaders out of Sol. So the only threats the UEF pose to the GTVA are psycological, economical and political in nature or constructed reasons like the UEF undermining the Human races ability to resist the Shivans (not sure if we can count that under psycological).
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My question was also rhetorical -- the strategy I described (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe_first) was exactly the one we did employ in WWII. I don't think real-world analogies are entirely perfect here, but the one Mars put forward is guilty of begging the question. He describes a hypothetical situation on modern Earth that is as close as possible to the one in WiH, presupposes that our opinion would be identical to the one harbored by the GTVA's population during WiH, and uses this to justify the opinion harbored by the GTVA's population during WiH. Since he's making an assumption about how people in the United States would react to a set of conditions, I think it's fair to provide counter-arguments that cite how Americans have reacted to similar conditions in the past. The situations aren't identical, but they're close enough to form starting points for analysis. If we're supposed to ignore historical context, then what's the point of Mars bringing modern Earth into this in the first place?
I think calling the UEF a green-water navy is, if anything, generous. They're capable of putting up a good fight in their home system, but there's debate as to whether any of their capital ships -- even their Solarises -- have interystem jump capability.
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but there's debate as to whether any of their capital ships -- even their Solarises -- have interystem jump capability.
There really isn't. Because they do.
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but there's debate as to whether any of their capital ships -- even their Solarises -- have interystem jump capability.
There really isn't. Because they do.
I thought that they did, and I've argued as much in the past. I didn't realize it had been confirmed, so thank you.
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I don't think it has been confirmed -- I don't want to turn this into Star Wars here but anything we say in the forums is secondary to what actually appears in the campaigns, tech entries, and fluff material on the website.
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Inter-system Solares, huh? Beta Aq here I come! Prepare your anus, GTVA, Laporte's bringing the RAEG!
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I am in fact guilty of that in the metaphor - my point, however, wasn't one of "of course the GTVA feels this way or that way" it was one of "it is perfectly possible that the population is in severe unrest and the dispatch of another capital ship will spark the powder keg"
EDIT:
I get the impression that Solaris destroyers still aren't as long endurance as Titans and Raynors?
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Of course not. They probably are able to carry enough supplies to operate longer than your average Karuna, but like all UEF ships, they requires more logistic drain than any Tev ship of comparable size, Capella-era or newgen. Just look at the amount of Apocalypses and Gattler rounds a Solaris spews in a few minutes of combat.
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Well, I suspect flak cannons aren't particularly efficient.
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Ammo is one thing. Fuel is another, and maintenance/spare parts yet another. Tev ships are most likely less demanding in all those three areas.
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Well, I suspect flak cannons aren't particularly efficient.
Fortunately, they aren't mounted on either the Titan or the Raynor. Pulse cannons and beams probably don't need much ammo, if any. Their torpedoes, while powerful, are only tertiary weapons (and might as well not be there, considering UEF point defenses). GTVA ships are very diverse in their weaponry.
On a somewhat related note, can the Supernova be used as an SSM? Being 5 times as powerful as the Eos, it could be quite effective.
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Well, I suspect flak cannons aren't particularly efficient.
Fortunately, they aren't mounted on either the Titan or the Raynor. Pulse cannons and beams probably don't need much ammo, if any. Their torpedoes, while powerful, are only tertiary weapons (and might as well not be there, considering UEF point defenses). GTVA ships are very diverse in their weaponry.
On a somewhat related note, can the Supernova be used as an SSM? Being 5 times as powerful as the Eos, it could be quite effective.
in BP canon, beams and IIRC pulse/blobs are all plasma. which means you're expending a ****LOAD of plasma "ammunition" every time you fire a beam. considerably less for blobs/pulses, but still physically expelling mass.
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Yes, but the "ammunition" for plasma would be gas, which later get's super-heated. And gasses can be compressed. Missiles and bullets can't. So while the GTVA still uses ammunition in a way, theirs would take up far less room per shot than the UEF weapons I think.
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The GTVA could even in theory carry ammo as fuel and fuel as ammo, depending on what they're using, and you can compress gas to liquid or even solid. Metallic hydrogen storage. All the ammo/fuel you'll ever need.
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Yes, but the "ammunition" for plasma would be gas, which later get's super-heated. And gasses can be compressed. Missiles and bullets can't. So while the GTVA still uses ammunition in a way, theirs would take up far less room per shot than the UEF weapons I think.
I'd agree, but with the frequency that flak gets fired out they must still have a large amount of conventional firepower on board. Plus, I believe in the mission with the Pesdjet there is a communique that says the Deimos took a shot to it's ammo storage right when it blows up, so they've got a least enough to cause a big explosion if hit in the right place.
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A flak has nothing near the fire-rate of UEF gattlers. And you seem to seriously underestimate the size of UEF missiles. Most apocalypse are the size of a fighter, with the Narayana's being bigger than most bombers!
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let's not forget how ****ing big the ships themselves are. there's a LOT of room for storage in there.
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I'd of thought most of that room would be crew quaters since ships the size of a Karuna are supposed to house 3,000 people.
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They aren't luxury liners, they're military vessels. If you're not an officer you're packed in like sardines.
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I'd of thought most of that room would be crew quaters since ships the size of a Karuna are supposed to house 3,000 people.
They're also over a kilometer long. For comparison, a Nimitz-class aircraft carrier is 330m long (about the size of a Karuna's rotator) and has a complement of just over 6,000.
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along with an airwing of 75 or so and all the ordinance and fuel to go along with it.
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An Orion has 10,000 people on board, and they could all fit inside a couple turrets IIRC.
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And Even then they still have.. :cool: plenty of FreeSpace! :yes:
Or maybe people in that time don't sleep in beds but in small, claustrophobic capsules which induce REM sleep a dozen times more efficient than any Swedish mattrass on a king-sized bed could ever achieve. Can even stack those in a cargo bay once you sleep and in case of emergency shoot them through tubes so you wake up right at your station. :P But that's far-fetched even for me!
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No, seriously. How do all those people inside a Nimitz fit? Has the US Navy been secretly making TARDIS ships?
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Uhm, half of them are on shift when the other half sleeps I imagine.
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Yeah, they're hotbunking.
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no, everyone has their own bunk and locker. the officers even have staterooms. carriers are just ****ing BIG. which means FS ships are obscenely huge.
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Yeah, they're hotbunking.
Only the submariners have to hotbunk in the USN these days, and even then it's not the full crew. (IIRC something like 30 or 40 percent of the crew on a Los Angeles has to, I'd have to look it up to be sure.)
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Oh, you're right, my bad^^
And considering the size comparison pictures...30.000 people aboard the Colossus seems a little bit...undercrewed^^
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Not, if you consider how much of the ship is made up of nothing but girders :P
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Not, if you consider how much of the ship is made up of nothing but girders :P
The true weapon behind the colossus was the flying debris of Girders upon destruction!
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And there I thought she was so big, to make the "baseball-bat manouver" more devastating.
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2- Let's be honest : although the Tevs should of course try to avoid unnecessarily losses, they are not, contrary to the UEF, on the verge of logistical collapse, and, like Simms or I don't remember who said, they "can bleed corvettes left and right". Steele has shown with Darkest Hour that he is ready and willing to sacrifice a few ships to achieve important goals. If he gets an opening to wipe a Solaris out, he'll take it.
You kind of already said this, but I was saying that the Solarises aren't the only important military target for the GTVA and that taking out smaller ships can be important too.
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Yeah, as far as warship assets are concerned, if I were a Tev commander, I'd probably prioritize a Narayana over a Solaris.
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Solaris's might just be easier to catch, at this point.
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The ultimate goal of the GTVA is defending themselves against the next Shivan incursion. Had the UEF been committed to this objective in a comparable manner to the GTVA, a pacific solution might have been considered.
What do you mean by "a pacific solution"?
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If the UEF have had a militaristic policy similar to the GTVA, and had the Ubuntu ideology not been deemed a threat to the survival of humanity, the GTVA most likely would have started negotiations on a pacific reintegration of Sol into the GTVA, integration of the UEF's fleet into the GTVA navy, a share of Sol's industrial power, and negotiations on a solution to the economical crisis the GTVA is facing.
The Elders are negotiators. They'd have come to an arrangement.
As a bonus, civilians can go back and forth to their home system, families are reunited, the GTVA can go back to prepare for their unavoidable doom, and all is well.
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So, summing up your entire post: as long as situations had been diametrically opposite what they actually were when the portal was re-opened, blah blah blah could have happened.
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So, summing up your entire post: as long as situations had been diametrically opposite what they actually were when the portal was re-opened, blah blah blah could have happened.
It's important to emphasize how much of a pack of sissy losers the UEF is.
Tev4Lyfe
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Wouldn't happen. The very point of the war is for the Tevs to get their hand on Sol's industrial and logistical power, which is roughly equivalent to the Terran half of the GTVA as a whole (probably a bit less now that several shipyards and logistical bases have been nuked, but still). Plus, they've been promising their citizens they'll be able to go to Earth and reunite their families, first for after the activation of the portal, and then for after the end of the war.
They'll need and they'll want a solid military presence in Sol. Politically, and economically, they can't afford to let a single bit of independence to Sol. Officially, Sol is already a GTVA territory under the occupation of the enemy (they justify it by saying Sol was a GTA territory and the GTVA considers itself the legitimate successor of the GTA, and is supposed to get all the former GTA territories per the BETAC, but of course what they really care about is the PR side and the economical and industrial power).
War aims can change though can't they?
In real life, the US demanded total unconditional surrender from Japan in WW2, but the surrender ended up being more 'conditional' in reality didn't it? If casualties continue to mount, the GTVA may be more willing to only get 80% or so of what they want.
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It's important to emphasize how much of a pack of sissy losers the UEF is.
Tev4Lyfe
Now now, let's tone down the playground talk a bit. We want to bring the UEF supporters over to our side right (or at least convince BP makers that a GTVA win wouldn't be bad right? ;)
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War aims can change though can't they?
In real life, the US demanded total unconditional surrender from Japan in WW2, but the surrender ended up being more 'conditional' in reality didn't it? If casualties continue to mount, the GTVA may be more willing to only get 80% or so of what they want.
They want to make sure the Ubuntu ideology doesn't spread into the GTVA. Either they prevent it, or they don't, there can't be a middle ground. They can't let 20% of the ideology spread.
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If that is the case, then surely the only way to prevent cultural contamination is to commit genocide on the inhabitants of Sol. Idealogy can't be halted with laws, only by destroying all traces of it.
Without the complete removal of every person with knowlege of the Ubunto idealogy, it will spread.
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It's important to emphasize how much of a pack of sissy losers the UEF is.
Tev4Lyfe
Now now, let's tone down the playground talk a bit. We want to bring the UEF supporters over to our side right (or at least convince BP makers that a GTVA win wouldn't be bad right? ;)
Everything is written out to the end of BP3, very little convincing can be done
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I know! Broadcast videos from the Second Incursion. Everywhere. Show the UEF population: "THIS is what's out there, and you live in a pacifist state. We can protect you better than your Council of Elders. Just look at how easily we're beating you. You really think you can take on the Shivans?"
Actually, they're probably already doing that.
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It's important to emphasize how much of a pack of sissy losers the UEF is.
Tev4Lyfe
Now now, let's tone down the playground talk a bit. We want to bring the UEF supporters over to our side right (or at least convince BP makers that a GTVA win wouldn't be bad right? ;)
Everything is written out to the end of BP3, very little convincing can be done
I know, I was just kind of kidding around.
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I know! Broadcast videos from the Second Incursion. Everywhere. Show the UEF population: "THIS is what's out there, and you live in a pacifist state. We can protect you better than your Council of Elders. Just look at how easily we're beating you. You really think you can take on the Shivans?"
Actually, they're probably already doing that.
As I recall, the GTVA got their asses handed to them during the Second Shivan Incursion.
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As I recall, the GTVA got their asses handed to them during the Second Shivan Incursion.
They did. They're also beating the UEF handily. So how would the UEF do?
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As I recall, the GTVA got their asses handed to them during the Second Shivan Incursion.
They did. They're also beating the UEF handily. So how would the UEF do?
I suspect they'd do just fine so long as nobody builds the Shivans a handy bridge to get into their system.
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I suspect they'd do just fine so long as nobody builds the Shivans a handy bridge to get into their system.
Who's to say the Shivans couldn't have done it themselves? Haven't they shown the ability to use nodes that no one else could before?
I can't recall, but wasn't there a really unstable jump node from Sol to Deneb?
But yes, chances are that if the GTVA hadn't come back to Sol, the UEF wouldn't be threatened by the Shivans. But that's irrelevant, because they did come back. The UEF's been forced back into the galactic community, and now they have to contend with the Shivan threat like everyone else. And they're just not ready to do that.
note: If I appear to sound patronising, that really isn't my intention
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If memory serves there were two phasing jump nodes to Sol that were cut off as well.
As I recall, the GTVA got their asses handed to them during the Second Shivan Incursion.
They did. They're also beating the UEF handily. So how would the UEF do?
In fairness, the Lucifer is the toughest enemy Sol ever had to face, and a Narayana thrashes it like nothing in the Tev arsenal.
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Er, what? If the Narayana's in HRed range, the Lucifer butchers it so fast it's not funny. Even if the Narayana's out of range, a Lucifer will still live long enough to get close and kill it, just because those two side LReds can't be hit by railguns while it's closing, and it has a freakish 800 000 hitpoints. And all this assumes railguns and Apocalypses could even get through the shields (I lean towards no for the railguns, but yes for the torpedoes).
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It's not certain what effect UEF weapons would have had on its shield, if any.
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Er, what? If the Narayana's in HRed range, the Lucifer butchers it so fast it's not funny. Even if the Narayana's out of range, a Lucifer will still live long enough to get close and kill it, just because those two side LReds can't be hit by railguns while it's closing, and it has a freakish 800 000 hitpoints. And all this assumes railguns and Apocalypses could even get through the shields (I lean towards no for the railguns, but yes for the torpedoes).
Well, Narayana usually don't attack alone.
And they will never attack such a big target like Lucy alone. For example, Calder sent a pair of Narayanas to destroy the Atreus.
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Er, what? If the Narayana's in HRed range, the Lucifer butchers it so fast it's not funny. Even if the Narayana's out of range, a Lucifer will still live long enough to get close and kill it, just because those two side LReds can't be hit by railguns while it's closing, and it has a freakish 800 000 hitpoints. And all this assumes railguns and Apocalypses could even get through the shields (I lean towards no for the railguns, but yes for the torpedoes).
The Lucy also has a speed of only 15m/s. At maximum range, a Narayana has seven minutes to disable the HReds and another five before the LReds can be brought to bear. Try it out in FRED; the poor Shivans get pecked to death.
Of course, it's a moot point since the Narayana didn't get its artillery upgrade until the GTVA invasion and the Lucy would undoubtedly jump away and repair like it did against the Orestes, and battles in BP are decided by plot armor and not specs, but it makes a decent demonstration of why the GTVA hasn't been able to capture Sol for 18+ months.
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The Shivans are also much better than they actually appear in BP. (The Shivan ships appear to operate at less than half of their true capabilities or something or other)
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Also, neither the Tevs nor the Shivans would be stupid enough to just try to close 12 km "on foot". The Shivans would just send waves of bombers or warships to flank the Nara, the Tevs would just send a pop-up Trebuchet strike to bring down its guns and missile launchers.
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And some Tev ships have sprint drives as well; were I Serkr or the Atreus / whatever other units have the device, and my unit was on the offensive, and I were suddenly threatened by a Nara, it would perhaps be wisest to jump not away, but into close range. Naras are completely dependent on their range advantage vs. modern Tev combatants.
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Have you ever seen any FS ship make a jump of just a few kilometers (in official or BP missions that is)?
While that doesn't prove that Serkr can't do such a thing, it does make it rather unlikely. They could jump far away and then jump back in, though that would mean they lost their "backup jump-charge" and are stuck in the area untill they can recharge again, so even if they can do it, it would be very risky and thus reserved for major emergencies or the final battle.
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The Lucy also has a speed of only 15m/s. At maximum range, a Narayana has seven minutes to disable the HReds and another five before the LReds can be brought to bear. Try it out in FRED; the poor Shivans get pecked to death.
I did. The HReds get disabled by the time the two are 9 - 8km apart, then the Narayana gets a few minutes whittling away at those 800 000 hp. 5000m later, Lucifer gets there, and the Narayana dies. Tried it with both ships starting 14km apart, with BP2-Colonel AI. Lucifer typically wins with 10 - 20% health remaining. Lost a couple times too. If I actually give the Narayana an attack order, which means it's also closing at 25m/s, Lucifer wins with 50-40% or so. It even got an HRed shot off once.
Still, it's too close for the best destroyer the Shivans have. Shivans need a beam range and point defense upgrade. Even the TerSlashBlue has longer range than the LRed.
If the UEF had to take down a Lucifer, they'd have a much easier time if they just sent a Durga squadron to do the job. For all its anti-capital firepower, its point defenses are abysmal.
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Of course, it's a moot point since the Narayana didn't get its artillery upgrade until the GTVA invasion and the Lucy would undoubtedly jump away and repair like it did against the Orestes, and battles in BP are decided by plot armor and not specs.
That's not really true. Where ship stats are modified FRED-side it's done to better reflect the unit's capabilities. If you've ever played a naval simulator like JFC or Harpoon, you know that a lot of the attributes that define big warships' capabilities just aren't modeled in FreeSpace. The attributes in question here aren't exactly the same as those in Harpoon, but they still need to be brought out of the fluff and into the gameplay space. So: look not to the table files for answers, but for how the ship actually performs in missions.
For example, slapping a Narayana and a Lucifer into FRED and letting them pewpew doesn't really capture the abilities both sides can bring to the fight.
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Also, neither the Tevs nor the Shivans would be stupid enough to just try to close 12 km "on foot". The Shivans would just send waves of bombers or warships to flank the Nara, the Tevs would just send a pop-up Trebuchet strike to bring down its guns and missile launchers.
In fairness, the Shivans sent the first Sathanas after the Colossus completely stripped of its anti-capital armament. The Shivans are pretty horrible strategists, but when you have as many juggernauts as they do, you can get away with that sort of thing.I suspect they'd do just fine so long as nobody builds the Shivans a handy bridge to get into their system.
Who's to say the Shivans couldn't have done it themselves? Haven't they shown the ability to use nodes that no one else could before?
There's a decent chance they could, but this ability also completely nullifies the only remotely effective strategy the GTVA has demonstrated in fighting the Shivans.
I can't recall, but wasn't there a really unstable jump node from Sol to Deneb?
Maybe. The FS1 nodemap shows Sol having three jumpnodes, and there's never been a canonical explanation for the discrepancy. Highly unstable jumpnodes are a common fan rationalization for Volition's animators not taking to anyone else on the team, and BO might have gone with that one. Not sure, though.
But yes, chances are that if the GTVA hadn't come back to Sol, the UEF wouldn't be threatened by the Shivans. But that's irrelevant, because they did come back. The UEF's been forced back into the galactic community, and now they have to contend with the Shivan threat like everyone else. And they're just not ready to do that.
Their best defensive option is to send some large explosives through the node, which it's a safe bet the GTVA will stand in the way of. Any claim that they're somehow making the UEF's citizens safer is going to fall pretty flat...and that's before you even consider that they're actively destroying the UEF's defensive capability.
note: If I appear to sound patronising, that really isn't my intention
Don't worry, you're not.
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"We can defend you better than you can defend yourself. That's why we are blowing up all your ships even if it costs us some of our own ships to do so."
Unless destroyed ships can come back in ghost-form to haunt the Shivans into submission, that is hardly a good argument to make UEF citizens sympathize with the GTVA...
Maybe if it was a cold war, or advertising for the upcoming election the argument would make sense, but with all the war, destruction and attrition going on, that argument lost all it's value.
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Except that the combined industrial might of the GTVA and UEF would replace the lost warships in a matter of just a couple years? You're vastly selling short the capabilities of the combined manufacturing outputs of the two polities.
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Except the GTVA wrecked the UEF's industrial might into oblivion, and it will take them years to repair. And that's before they start replenishing the losses.
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But they're also targeting the manufacturing centers now as well, which is the main reason the UEFs war prospects took such a nosedive when Steele got in charge. The blitz, Luna, the Saab (?) shipyards and the Bretonia station being targeted by the Deimos before Delenda Est all suggest manufacturing centers are now prime targets.
I'm also interested in how exactly the GTVA thinks Ubuntu culture will be destroyed simply by removing the leaders. If it's as central to the belief system of Earth as the Chrysalis chapter hinted at it's not like they could be easily persuaded to give it up, especially by the people persecuting them. It's not like Sol is some fringe colony with a small population either, even if they lose the war the GTVA's plans for Sol will probably be riddled with social revolts.
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But they're also targeting the manufacturing centers now as well, which is the main reason the UEFs war prospects took such a nosedive when Steele got in charge. The blitz, Luna, the Saab (?) shipyards and the Bretonia station being targeted by the Deimos before Delenda Est all suggest manufacturing centers are now prime targets.
I'm also interested in how exactly the GTVA thinks Ubuntu culture will be destroyed simply by removing the leaders. If it's as central to the belief system of Earth as the Chrysalis chapter hinted at it's not like they could be easily persuaded to give it up, especially by the people persecuting them. It's not like Sol is some fringe colony with a small population either, even if they lose the war the GTVA's plans for Sol will probably be riddled with social revolts.
Agreed on all points. I suspect we haven't heard the GTVA's real reason for going to war, and that the ones we've heard so far were ways for the Security Council to justify it to the citizenry without creating a security crisis, causing a panic, and/or appearing to be completely insane. Remember this from "Ken"?
Secretary-General Toqueville: "Did we do the right thing? We couldn't let them go forward with it, not once we knew. We will not be tools. But...was it right?"
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Except that the combined industrial might of the GTVA and UEF would replace the lost warships in a matter of just a couple years? You're vastly selling short the capabilities of the combined manufacturing outputs of the two polities.
With the constant and ever present threat of a Shivan incursion haging over the two races, a couple of years can become a very long time. Especially if the first two appearances of the Shvans during times of war shows a pattern, rather than an incredible chaining of coincidences.
I believe those two things are part of the reason why the GTVA is willing to sacrifice so much of Sols infrastructure to make sure the war is ended quickly (along with the socio-political and economic considerations of course).
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Strategically, where should the GTVA attack more? Should it try more Blitzes on Earth, or focus on Martian assets and try to knock it out of the war like Jupiter?
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I thought only beam weapons could pierce the Lucifer's shields? Wasn't the rational for the BP Lucifer not having shields was that they had shut them down to pump more power through the frontal beams since the GTVA main weapon was beams, rendering the shields useless?
Put the Lucy up against UEF units and it just turns its shields on and its laughing. Scratch one Nary, and anything else the UEF cares to throw at it.
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We don't know. We only know that FS1 era weapons couldn't penetrate the Lucy shields, but since then both the UEF and GTVA have made great leaps in weapon technology.
It is possible that anti-matter or meson based weapons are able to penetrate the shield, but since there were no "official" missions or comments to proofe either way, there is just no way to tell.
We don't even know for sure wether the old Terran green beams and Vasudan yellow beams would have worked, since we only saw the meson-based blue beams of the 14th battlegroup pierce the Lucifers shields.
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Has anyone from the BP team said anything about the BPverse Lucifer in that regard?
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in my own personal canon, i regard the lucifer's shields as REALLY poorly implemented plot armor and nothing more. i.e., the lucifer has no shields. or the FS1 one is the only one that did.
just in case anyone cares what goes on inside my head.
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But the Lucy you fight in AoA IS the FS1 Lucy.
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I really don't think the Lucy's beams were powered up in AoA. The next beam down from HRed is LRed and it seems odd that the superdestroyer which destroyed two, three, maybe more civilizations would have no greater firepower than a common Ravana or Demon.
I also seriously doubt that Sol, after 50 years with a population greater than the entire GTVA combined and the technology to perfectly manage them all, hasn't developed an answer to the Lucifer's shields--even if that answer is simply more warheads than the Lucifer's shields can take. An elegant solution, to be sure.
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Continuing on my question I recently posted here, it might not be unwise to hit Earth again. That could draw some defenses away from Mars.
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Unless they want that to hit Mars hard, while the martian defenders are hurrying to defend Earth. It all depends on how many ships they need to provoke such an attack and how many others still remain to carry out the attack on Mars.
Oh and also wether the Martians take the bait and send enough ship towards Earth to seriously compromise their own defense and how quickly they can return to Mars, after they get wind of the GTVAs plan.
I really don't think the Lucy's beams were powered up in AoA. The next beam down from HRed is LRed and it seems odd that the superdestroyer which destroyed two, three, maybe more civilizations would have no greater firepower than a common Ravana or Demon.
I also seriously doubt that Sol, after 50 years with a population greater than the entire GTVA combined and the technology to perfectly manage them all, hasn't developed an answer to the Lucifer's shields--even if that answer is simply more warheads than the Lucifer's shields can take. An elegant solution, to be sure.
I did a little experiment in FRED once and found out that the HRed need about as many salvos and time to kill an Orion, as the superlaser needed in FS1, suggesting roughly the same damageoutput. On the other hand the GTVA did improve their armor technology in those 32 years, so maybe the Lucy had to strengthen their beams to compensate. Also the FS1 Lucifer didn't have side-mounted beams, or at least never used them while it's shields were on (ie every time is was ingame, except the last mission.... where no capship was present).
Either way the worst problem with the Lucifer was never her immense firepower, that is something that can be overcome. The real problem was her invulnerbility to anything the GTA and PVE could bring onto the field of battle. Even without the shield, she still packs a ridiculous amount of HP for a ship it's size.
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Unless they want that to hit Mars hard, while the martian defenders are hurrying to defend Earth. It all depends on how many ships they need to provoke such an attack and how many others still remain to carry out the attack on Mars.
Oh and also wether the Martians take the bait and send enough ship towards Earth to seriously compromise their own defense and how quickly they can return to Mars, after they get wind of the GTVAs plan.
So if you were Admiral Steele (or some member of the Security Council), where would you recommend attacks be focused? Or would you divide attention between Earth and Mars?
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IIRC the Karunas and Narayanas are supposed to have jump turnover times of ~15 minutes, though that is from a barely canon source. Tev ships considerably better.
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IIRC the Karunas and Narayanas are supposed to have jump turnover times of ~15 minutes, though that is from a barely canon source. Tev ships considerably better.
They don't. Tev capital ships also need about 15 minutes to finish a recharge cycle (for example the Carthage in Delenda Est), and sprint jump drives are simply a dual jump drive, each drive needing to recharge just like any other. It can be speculated that nu-gen Tev ships can recycle their drives faster than Capella-era ships, but that speculation isn't confirmed by any released content.
Steele got the Atreus to engage jump after jump in a much faster fashion during the Blitz by throwing more juice into his dual drive, but he nearly blew his own ship's guts to oblivion by doing so.
It is to be noted that the smaller the ship is, the faster its drive(s) can recharge (as pointed during the Duke pursuit in AoA).
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It is to be noted that the smaller the ship is, the faster its drive(s) can recharge (as pointed during the Duke pursuit in AoA).
That actually supports GTVA ships having a shorter recharge cycle. The Carthage's cycle is about as long as that of a Karuna, despite the Carthage being a much larger ship.
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(for example the Carthage in Delenda Est)
The Carthage is, frankly, ancient, and also as an OpEval ship would be rigged for safety over other concerns in a way that they couldn't completely avoid even in a combat situation. It is not likely to be a representative sample.
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I very much doubt they put in a sprint drive, without also switching out the old jumpdrive with a new one. That is if the sprint drive actually is a seperate drive, rather than the sprint and main jump drives coming in a single package in the first place.
And I think an OpEval ship isn't rigged for security, but for customization. They are there to learn as much as possible about the drive, so they should have a lot of room for adjustments, including settings that will be locked up (or hard-coded if you will) for the mass-produced varients, to find out the optimal settings.
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The Carthage is set up to test unproven technologies. They will build in plenty of safety nets to protect the ship and its critical systems in the event something doesn't actually work the way it's supposed to. As the subspace drive is a necessity to return the ship quickly to a dock where it can be attended to in case of accident, it will be one of those systems.
And, again, the Carthage is not merely old enough to vote in WiH, it's old enough to have children who could also vote. Battuta has commented that by the time we encounter it in Delenda Est the Carthage is nearing the end of its useful lifespan even as a ship to evaluate new technologies on.
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Steele got the Atreus to engage jump after jump in a much faster fashion during the Blitz by throwing more juice into his dual drive, but he nearly blew his own ship's guts to oblivion by doing so.
And this is stated by Feds. As far as we know he could as well have the best drive of the whole GTVA.
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Steele got the Atreus to engage jump after jump in a much faster fashion during the Blitz by throwing more juice into his dual drive, but he nearly blew his own ship's guts to oblivion by doing so.
And this is stated by Feds. As far as we know he could as well have the best drive of the whole GTVA.
It's a blast furnace powered by shoveling screaming care bears inside and powering the ship on rainbows. That should be sufficiently evil for the UEF to hate him more.
Also, do Deimos Corvettes have backup drives? Or are intersystem drives on a seperate charge from Intra? I was playing through FS2 again yesterday, and on the second SOC mission, (The hijacking of the Sunder mission) I noticed the NTCv Sevrin jumps in, and like 30 seconds later jumps out.
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And, again, the Carthage is not merely old enough to vote in WiH, it's old enough to have children who could also vote. Battuta has commented that by the time we encounter it in Delenda Est the Carthage is nearing the end of its useful lifespan even as a ship to evaluate new technologies on.
Which is a damn shame, because it's a cool ship.
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I suppose that as a Great War veteran, the Carthage could be refitted as a diplomatic vessel or something.
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No, it should be decommissioned and turned into a museum, and then this big attack happens....oh, wait.
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No, it should be decommissioned and turned into a museum, and then this big attack happens....oh, wait.
Admiral Adama Lopez
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IIRC, the Carthage was built during the Reconstruction Era, and as such never was a "Great War veteran". I can't remember if/where that was confirmed in the BP continuity though.
EDIT: (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GTD_Carthage_%28BP%29)
The GTD Carthage is one of the oldest capital ships still in service with the Alliance fleet. Launched towards the end of the Great War, she has participated in most major campaigns fought by the GTVA, and her accumulated combat record is unparalleled.
My mistake. Can't tell how late it was launched and whether it saw any action at all though.
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FS2 doesn't say anything about it, but its description in the techroom says it was launched near the end of the Great War.
The GTD Carthage is one of the oldest capital ships still in service with the Alliance fleet. Launched towards the end of the Great War, she has participated in most major campaigns fought by the GTVA, and her accumulated combat record is unparalleled. After she was nearly destroyed during the nebula campaign, she was refitted as a Combat Evaluation Unit Destroyer, to field-test new armor, propulsion and ECM designs. Exact details are unavailable, but we do know that her anti-fighter armament has been substantially upgraded to allow her to survive in today's fighter-centric combat environment. We have also found indications that she has been fitted with a prototype version of the sprint drive, which essentially consists of a second subspace drive motivator. Her Hull plating, in combination with her extensive redesign, have increased her combat survivability by several orders of magnitude. While the ship has been in active duty for the better part of 50 years, ONI estimates that destroying her or achieving a mission kill will take a lot of careful planning and a lot of firepower.
The Carthage and her escort fleet have been under the command of Admiral Anita Lopez for 15 years, and while her command is primarily composed of old ship designs, all the rough edges have long since been worn away, and her Battlegroup is consistently found in the top 10 Percent of the GTVA's Fleet Performance evaluations.
EDIT: ninja edit'ed
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Steele got the Atreus to engage jump after jump in a much faster fashion during the Blitz by throwing more juice into his dual drive, but he nearly blew his own ship's guts to oblivion by doing so.
And this is stated by Feds. As far as we know he could as well have the best drive of the whole GTVA.
It's a blast furnace powered by shoveling screaming care bears inside and powering the ship on rainbows. That should be sufficiently evil for the UEF to hate him more.
Also, do Deimos Corvettes have backup drives? Or are intersystem drives on a seperate charge from Intra? I was playing through FS2 again yesterday, and on the second SOC mission, (The hijacking of the Sunder mission) I noticed the NTCv Sevrin jumps in, and like 30 seconds later jumps out.
Considering how inconsistant FS2 is within itself, when it comes to how long a ship need to prepare for jumps and from where they can jump, I wouldn't put too much stock into that.
For BP it's a pretty safe bet to say the Deimos' don't have sprint drives, considering that not even all of the next-gen ships seem to have them (see the two Diomedes that get blasted apart for sure). I think the Tevs will first refit their new ships, before they even consider refitting the Deimos'.
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Sometimes it can be more expensive to upgrade a ship than to build a new one.
For example, someone once said the GTVA should upgrade the Deimos corvettes to have blue beams. Then someone else replied it would be less effort to just build new Chimeras or Bellerophons.
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Which is just one more argument, why it's extremely unlikely that the Deimos will get sprint drives at all, much less have them already.
Though we can't completely equate the blue beams and the sprint drives. With the blue beams we know that they need meson reactors and improved powergrids to work, compared to green beams. Of the sprint drives' requirements we know pretty much nothing.
Do they need more space? Can they work with the same power supply as a single drive, by just charging up one and then the other, or do they need more power? Do they need specialized computers and/or crew to keep them working savely? Do they need more maintanance?
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We do know that sprint jump drive technology was made possible by advanced made in miniaturization of jump drives, so it's safe to assume that each separate drive of the dual sprint drive is smaller than a standard drive.
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But are the two together still bigger than an old single drive?
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The authors actually explicitly said that they want to leave the specifics of subspace travel for both sides blurry for now; it's one of the most flexible things they have to work with, so it makes sense ( the other is probably "just exactly how much damage can a ____ take" )
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The more resolution the rules get the shorter the clock until the inevitable continuity gaffe. :nervous:
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The more resolution the rules get the shorter the clock until the inevitable continuity gaffe. :nervous:
Never let them see your internal story assumptions. That way you can break them and nobody will know. :nervous:
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Given that Calder was able to play "subspace chess" with the Tevs for eighteen months before Steele arrived to storm Jupiter, I think we have to acknowledge that UEF subspace technology is at least comparable to that of the GTVA. Actually, I'm not sure it's even a difference in subspace tech--the Tevs just have superior meson reactors, whereas most traffic in Sol isn't even equipped with drives and uses the gate network.
Regarding the NTF Deimos and its jumps: the captain was operating on the belief that the convoy had been scrapped by a GTVA assault force with new a new fighter class and probably prioritized escaping with whatever passive scan data over the lifespan of his Zod reactor.
Sometimes it can be more expensive to upgrade a ship than to build a new one.
For example, someone once said the GTVA should upgrade the Deimos corvettes to have blue beams. Then someone else replied it would be less effort to just build new Chimeras or Bellerophons.
Don't know if it's BP-canon, but the shape and debris of the Chimera/Bellerophon/Titan suggest that blue beams require drastically different subsystems than FS2-era beams; it might not even be possible to fit them onto older ships.
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I think there are indications that there is a line of subspace development and that the Tevs are ahead. Subspace missile strikes are one good example, another is shock jumps.
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Subspace missile strikes are one good example, another is shock jumps.
Shock jump is a tactic, not a technological advancement. It's all about jumping at the right place and unleash hell on your target in a few seconds. Ships like Chimera, Beller and Titan excel at this tactic because of the overwhelming forward firepower they can deploy on a single target, but any ship can do a shock jump. You can consider the Indus did a shock jump on the Valerie in Darkest Hour, for example.
Don't know if it's BP-canon, but the shape and debris of the Chimera/Bellerophon/Titan suggest that blue beams require drastically different subsystems than FS2-era beams; it might not even be possible to fit them onto older ships.
Like said in several threads, it's pretty much strongly implied that blue beams require the newer Meson reactors to power them. Capella-era ships use Fusion reactors, and changing the main power source of a ship means changing everything, ranging from the engines which most likely need to be adapted to the energy source, to the energy transfer devices of the power grid, to the internal disposition of decks to fit the new reactor. You're better at building a ship designed for it from the ground up rather than forcingly trying to plug it into an older hull.
Not to mention that if Deimoses are still produced and in service, it's because they're cheap yet powerful and versatile. Putting something as expensive as a meson reactor and blue beams would ruin the purpose.
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I agree that the GTVA has an edge with the subspace drives in the ships (and missiles), but on the other hand the UEF managed to build their gate network. So I wouldn't say that the GTVA has more advanced subspace technology in general, but just a different specialization.
Remember that the gate network also has stragetic value, which was an advantage the UEF had over the GTVA, untill the Tevs managed to capture Artemis station and thus gain controll over part of the network.
It might have been the very reason that the UEF was able to compete with the Tevs in the "subspace chess", because it equaled out the Tevs advanced drives.
I wonder if the GTVA has any plans on esteblishing similar gate networks in their own systems, once the war is over and they can spare the ressources. Apart from being of strategic value in the defense against the Shivans, it would also help the economy and we all know that Terran economy desperately need help.
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Building a gate network is economically viable only when you start stripping most of your newly-produced ships of any form of subspace drive, because that's what's expensive. That means it requires a new generation of civilian ships to be built before it becomes profitable. Secondly, no drives also mean no inter-system jumps, something the UEF didn't have to worry about but that can quickly become very problematic in the GTVA, where most of the trading isn't exactly intra-systems. Plus, if the GTVA has to evacuate a system due to a Shivan invasion, they'll want as many jump-capable ships as possible in the vicinity. Removing drives in favour of a gate network would be shooting your own foot.
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Shock jump is a tactic, not a technological advancement.
I know this.
It's all about jumping at the right place and unleash hell on your target in a few seconds.
Which somehow the Tev ships do every time, and UEF ships randomly jump into the middle of pockets of anticapital fire. Tev ships then proceed to jump out within a minute or two. Ships like Chimera, Beller and Titan excel at this tactic because of the overwhelming forward firepower they can deploy on a single target, but any ship can do a shock jump. You can consider the Indus did a shock jump on the Valerie in Darkest Hour, for example.
They can jump in, but they never seem able to jump out very quickly. Delande Est for example, or The mission that is the takedown of the GTD Meridian.
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Building a gate network is economically viable only when you start stripping most of your newly-produced ships of any form of subspace drive, because that's what's expensive. That means it requires a new generation of civilian ships to be built before it becomes profitable. Secondly, no drives also mean no inter-system jumps, something the UEF didn't have to worry about but that can quickly become very problematic in the GTVA, where most of the trading isn't exactly intra-systems. Plus, if the GTVA has to evacuate a system due to a Shivan invasion, they'll want as many jump-capable ships as possible in the vicinity. Removing drives in favour of a gate network would be shooting your own foot.
I was more thinking about reduced travel time and fuel consumption. If the civilian ships lack the ability to make intra-system jumps (which is a reasonable assumtion I think), a gate connection between the jumpnodes and the planets would help the economy. And as a military tool, it allows you to get to a palce, without having to use your jumpdrives charge, thus keeping one more card up your sleeve, in addition to helping to conceal your fleet movements.
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Oh yeah, about jump gates, randomly, they are a great asset for both the GTVA and the UEF because neither of them want to destroy them for economical and tactical reasons. In case of a Shivan invasion, you can be sure that jump gates would be among the first targets, nullifying the point.
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Yes, and that's also why the Shivans blew up the Knossos portals.... oh wait....
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Yeah, right, because the Shivans totally need our intra-system gates to navigate in our systems. Oh wait.
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They might not need them, but they might still find them usefull enough to keep.
And sorry about the acidity of my last comment, that went a bit too far, looking back.
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The main benefit of gates is saving on costs and fuel consumption. I doubt Shivans have an economy to really make it matter.
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But they also have the benefit of traveling through subspace, without using your subspace engines, which means you arrive at the other side of the portal with fully charged drives and can jump away almost immediately (crash jump anyway), if you happen to jump yourself into a bad situation.
They also prevent the enemy from knowing what will come out of the portal, since they'll only know something is coming, wether it's a drone or a Sathanas (theoretically anyway, since I'm pretty sure a Sath doesn't fit through).
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True that, but Shivans have never retreated or jumped to escap afaik. Still, just cos it can be blown up by Shivans doesn't mean it won't be built. If we used that logic then there'd be no fleet. ;)
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Building a gate network is economically viable only when you start stripping most of your newly-produced ships of any form of subspace drive, because that's what's expensive. That means it requires a new generation of civilian ships to be built before it becomes profitable. Secondly, no drives also mean no inter-system jumps, something the UEF didn't have to worry about but that can quickly become very problematic in the GTVA, where most of the trading isn't exactly intra-systems. Plus, if the GTVA has to evacuate a system due to a Shivan invasion, they'll want as many jump-capable ships as possible in the vicinity. Removing drives in favour of a gate network would be shooting your own foot.
I was more thinking about reduced travel time and fuel consumption. If the civilian ships lack the ability to make intra-system jumps (which is a reasonable assumtion I think), a gate connection between the jumpnodes and the planets would help the economy. And as a military tool, it allows you to get to a palce, without having to use your jumpdrives charge, thus keeping one more card up your sleeve, in addition to helping to conceal your fleet movements.
I doubt even a significant portion of tev civilian vessels lack inter system drives. The entire Tev economy is built on a multi system model. Some civilian trade ship is NOT profitable without an inter system drive. Spending money on these inner system gates seems silly. Spending money on INTER system gates to shorten trade lines...? Stabalize some nodes might be nice. or if we could even link to gates (totally ballparking, but could they research enough to built their own conduits?). That seems like a better investment
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They should look into an alternate form of FTL travel rather than subspace, make their own ETAK device, wait for shivans, ????, PROFIT!!!!
But in all seriousness, I think that intrasystem gates would actually do good for the GTVAs economy. Less need for jumpdrive enabled ships would make some ships cheaper, meaning more people could travel more easily to other planets/stations and increase galactic tourism. And when it comes to intersystem travel, outdated millitary carriers or civilian ones could ferry driveless ships.
I know that the GTVA is essentially a military state, but I am English and refuse to believe that they would prevent people from going on holiday to a sunny planet and walking into shops wearing nothing but a pair of Speedo trunks, pair of sandals, and wasting money on trinkets.
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They should look into an alternate form of FTL travel rather than subspace, make their own ETAK device, wait for shivans, ????, PROFIT!!!!
But in all seriousness, I think that intrasystem gates would actually do good for the GTVAs economy. Less need for jumpdrive enabled ships would make some ships cheaper, meaning more people could travel more easily to other planets/stations and increase galactic tourism. And when it comes to intersystem travel, outdated millitary carriers or civilian ones could ferry driveless ships.
I know that the GTVA is essentially a military state, but I am English and refuse to believe that they would prevent people from going on holiday to a sunny planet and walking into shops wearing nothing but a pair of Speedo trunks, pair of sandals, and wasting money on trinkets.
Is there a market for driveless intra system travel? keep in mind that Sol has the Jovian's, the Martians and Earth itself. Three almost separate nations in one system, makes for good intra system trade. The population of Sol is roughly the equal to the terran half of the GTVA, which is spread across several systems. I still think the amount of investment required to construct a gate network in every system, or even every major system is just no where near the money it would save. population density isn't there. You don't build 8 lane highways in towns of 20,000 people.
The point about needing all available lift capacity should the shivans return is well taken as well.
"Sir they blew up Vega!"
"We got everyone out right?"
"Negative sir, most ships didn't have drives"
"Well ****."
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"Sir they blew up Vega!"
"We got everyone out right?"
"Negative sir, most ships didn't have drives"
"Well ****."
Touché.
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let's be clear on something. gates wouldn't save fuel overall. just for the traveling ship. power is still required to open a node, and something will have to fuel gate to generate said power. conservation of energy folks. thermodynamics is a *****.
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An intrasystem network wouldn't help much against Shivans. They blow up a gate, and suddenly any ship with no drives in the area would be left stranded with no hope whatsoever of leaving. Coupled with the fact ships will still need intersystem drives to get to real safety, and what's the point? Intersystem gates which could bypass nodes are another story. Assuming those are even possible.
Like Drogoth said, they make sense in a hugely industrialised system like Sol, but since the GTVA isn't concentrated in one system, they don't really have much use.
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let's be clear on something. gates wouldn't save fuel overall. just for the traveling ship. power is still required to open a node, and something will have to fuel gate to generate said power. conservation of energy folks. thermodynamics is a *****.
Arguable. Ships passing through a gate don't have to carry their own fuel, which translates to lower mass and thus a lower cost per jump.
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ok, potentially slightly more efficient. but we're not talking gasoline and coal here, these are super-advanced fusion and meson reactors. consider that nuclear powered (fission) ships today run for ~30 years with a few hundred kg of fuel.
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Consider that the amounts of energy required to open a portal in the fabric of space and time are a little bit higher than the amounts required to push a boat across water.
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Not to mention lifesupport, heating the ship (both of which are far easier done on a planets surface) and artificial gravity.
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As it turns out, heating isn't much of a problem in space--there's very little for heat to be transferred to. If anything ships probably need significant amounts of coolant to keep the excess heat from reactors and beams from toasting the crew.
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Indeed, in our internal rules for capship behavior heat is a serious consideration.
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On a combatant yes, but I thought we were talking about civilian ships here.
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On a combatant yes, but I thought we were talking about civilian ships here.
Anything running a reactor is going to have more waste heat then it knows what to do with.
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Unless they managed to crack cold fusion and I have no idea how a meson reactor is supposed to work, or how much heat it produces.
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Unless they managed to crack cold fusion and I have no idea how a meson reactor is supposed to work,
Energetically,
or how much heat it produces.
so therefore, probably a lot.
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The problem is that any heat a spacecraft produces has nowhere to go. Conduction doesn't work in a vacuum and convection doesn't work without gravity, so the only things naturally cooling a spaceborne object are the solar wind and the object's own thermal radiation. It's quite likely that the Legion is still hot to the touch fifty years after the Lucifer put a hole in it.
(Granted, an thermostat is still needed to keep internal temperatures from swinging between extremes.)
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There's always the physically dubious Sundiver approach wherein we use beams as heat sinks ;7
(almost entirely sure this is thermodynamic bull****)
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It's perfectly feasible to transfer the ship's waste heat to something (like your beam plasma) and get rid of that. The only problem is flinging your superheated plasma at enemies will probably produce more heat than you're getting rid of.
In any case, it's quite well known that spacecraft in science-fiction use phlebotinum heat sinks that are so effective that keeping the ship warm is a bigger problem than keeping it cold.
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Unless they managed to crack cold fusion and I have no idea how a meson reactor is supposed to work, or how much heat it produces.
the 'cold' in cold fusion means the ionic temperature the reaction taking place at doesn't have to be that of the sun. the laws of thermodynamics still state that you will generate waste heat in the energy conversion cycle.
unless in the FS verse they have some kind of super cool direct energy extraction type of thing.
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The problem is that any heat a spacecraft produces has nowhere to go. Conduction doesn't work in a vacuum and convection doesn't work without gravity, so the only things naturally cooling a spaceborne object are the solar wind and the object's own thermal radiation. It's quite likely that the Legion is still hot to the touch fifty years after the Lucifer put a hole in it.
(Granted, an thermostat is still needed to keep internal temperatures from swinging between extremes.)
The solar wind is heat source, not a sink. It's the stream of highly energetic charged particles that continually stream off the Sun, and is much hotter than the outer hull of a ship (like one million K or so). Of course, just because it's hot doesn't mean it actually would cause any measurable heating compared to the Sun's electromagnetic output, since it's extremely diffuse and thus much more of an ionizing radiation danger.
The Legion is also likely very cold, depending on how far away it is from the star it's orbiting (Deneb, was it?). 50 years is more than enough time for all the waste heat from the reactor to be radiated away, and the thermal energy from the beam wouldn't be too much in comparison (yes, I know how much damage it did; quite a lot of that energy went into punching the hole and destroying the ship, not heating it).
You are however correct in that a ship's reactor is going to be simply vomiting up waste heat, and keeping the ship cool when in normal operation (or when it's just in the Sun) is much more of a problem than keeping it warm.
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I'd highly recommend this site (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/) to anyone interested in a relatively magic-free discussion of the realities of spaceship design and operations. Click "show topic list" in the upper righthand corner and start digging.
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WIth the news in the other thread that Solarises now have improved mass drivers...does/should this have any effect on the GTVA's strategy for winning the war?
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I think it's primarily a tactical consideration, to be honest. It doesn't put more ships in more places.
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WIth the news in the other thread that Solarises now have improved mass drivers...
The Toutatis. Not Solarises plural.
Nothing says the two other didn't follow the same treatment, but nothing says they did either.
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Very little. The mass drivers might give the Toutatis extra flexibility in a couple rather narrow cases, but unless its torpedoes got an upgrade, it only has a fraction of the Narayana's long-range firepower. Deploying it in a long-range role would be a waste of a powerful asset.
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So just jump in a Narayana or two beside it and let them all bombard away from within the Toutatis' cozy Torpedo/Flak blanket. It's not like Calder's so stupid as to try to take back Artemis Station on his own.
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That's half of what's left of 3rd fleet right there. It'd have to literally be taking down the Atreus or some other equally important asset to warrant such a concentration of firepower.
What's 3rd fleet's role now anyway? Do they protect the belt or are they on standby to counter Tev raids?
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Closer to option number 2. They collaborate very closely with 2nd Fleet to slow the Tev advance as much as they can. They're not really on "standby", they actively participate to fleet operations. After all, half the Wargods were 3rd fleet, and we know the Toutatis was engaged in offensive operations at least twice, during Aristeia and during Delenda Est.
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I wonder what Steeles doing right after DE.
We know that almost every Fed asset of second and third fleet was engaged with the Tevs.
Thanks to Mat, we know that the big T is in drydock...
The Feds could be reeling from this blow, but has Steele the options to go for the throat?
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The Tevs are probably licking their wounds from the all-out diversionary attack that occured during Delenda Est. Furthermore, they were still in the process of repairing/rearming/resuplying since the Blitz of Darkest Hour. And the Imperieuse, after hiding for so long without proper support, is probably in a more-or-less critical state of disrepair and could probably use that trip to Delta Serpentis she was supposed to do to begin with.
Steele knows the feds are on their last legs, but he wants to finish the war as quickly as possible, so the GTVA can focus on the real threat out there. He'll go for the throat all right, but he'll need a bit more of preparation yet for that.
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Yeah DE effectively neutered the Carthage and its battlegroup as a fighting force. Steele will need to take a defensive posture, at least temporarily. Maybe enough time for Le Fedayeen to strike?
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I highly doubt, that every Tev asset was engaged, the big ones for sure, but Steele will have something avaiable to counter any move by the Feds, I mean, he laid the trap the Feds so willingly sprung.
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I wonder what Steeles doing right after DE.
Probably smirking as he looks out his window at the stars and sips some space-scotch. :pimp:
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I wonder what Steeles doing right after DE.
Probably smirking as he looks out his window at the stars and sips some space-scotch. :pimp:
Quite probably while doing a monologue about philosophy.
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Look out, we've got a bad-ass here.
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In terms of who wins, is it possible that a final settlement could be reached like that which happened in the Inferno campaign (IE Earth keeps de jure independence but the GTVA gets to maintain a heavy presence in system)?
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No. Unbuntu as an ideal cannot be allowed (by the Security Council) to propagate to GTVA space. Period. That means the complete and total dismantling of the Ubuntu (and therefore current Sol) government.
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how exactly do you dismantle an ideology short of exterminating everyone who subscribes to it?
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how exactly do you dismantle an ideology short of exterminating everyone who subscribes to it?
This is a really quick and clumsy example, but the US had de-Nazification and de-Baathification programs in Germany and Iraq respectively. Japan also underwent a major ideological restructuring post-war.
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how exactly do you dismantle an ideology short of exterminating everyone who subscribes to it?
Intense reindoctrination, the likes you don't see outside North Korea.
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how exactly do you dismantle an ideology short of exterminating everyone who subscribes to it?
Finding the ideologues and locking them up is a good start. Exploit public resentment over the war and its loss to help discredit them along the way. Bring in new people who will help to represent your interests.
It's been done before with reasonable effectiveness.
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Why dont they just threaten orbital nuking...? Its way easier.... Just have a raynor in orbit, and BAMM! Earth's at your feet.... :D
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Really cool black uniforms help with this sort of thing, too.
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Get Axem's descendants to make a JAD with Ubuntu as the satirical base.
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Why dont they just threaten orbital nuking...? Its way easier.... Just have a raynor in orbit, and BAMM! Earth's at your feet.... :D
Remember the part about trying to change the ideology of Sols citizens? Do you think "do as we say or we'll nuke you" is very likely to help in painting the Ubuntu as the bad and the GTVA as the good guys?
"We are the good guys and if you can't see that, we'll kill you all" isn't really a very convincing argument...
Apart from that, jumping a destroyer into earth orbit, having it hold there and not having it blown to bits is a bit hard to do for the GTVA.
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Why dont they just threaten orbital nuking...? Its way easier.... Just have a raynor in orbit, and BAMM! Earth's at your feet.... :D
That was actually the original plan, but you'll recall a bunch of people defected and let the cat out of the bag that the GTVA can't actually afford to bombard Earth, because they want the industry intact. Such a threat will not be taken seriously.
So far. There might be a Godzilla Threshold in effect; the longer the war lasts the more likely lolShivans becomes and the more incentive there is to seek a quick decision regardless of previous strategic concerns.
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Why dont they just threaten orbital nuking...? Its way easier.... Just have a raynor in orbit, and BAMM! Earth's at your feet.... :D
Remember the part about trying to change the ideology of Sols citizens? Do you think "do as we say or we'll nuke you" is very likely to help in painting the Ubuntu as the bad and the GTVA as the good guys?
"We are the good guys and if you can't see that, we'll kill you all" isn't really a very convincing argument...
Apart from that, jumping a destroyer into earth orbit, having it hold there and not having it blown to bits is a bit hard to do for the GTVA.
A myrmiddon stuffed with tempests would get the job done easily enough.
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BP canon missiles are simply absurdly powerful, not LOL-Omega-Tempest is apocalyptic powerful
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If I remember right Fury's have a 3 Kiloton warhead and that's pre-Great War!
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Why dont they just threaten orbital nuking...? Its way easier.... Just have a raynor in orbit, and BAMM! Earth's at your feet.... :D
Remember the part about trying to change the ideology of Sols citizens? Do you think "do as we say or we'll nuke you" is very likely to help in painting the Ubuntu as the bad and the GTVA as the good guys?
"We are the good guys and if you can't see that, we'll kill you all" isn't really a very convincing argument...
Apart from that, jumping a destroyer into earth orbit, having it hold there and not having it blown to bits is a bit hard to do for the GTVA.
What would you have the GTVA do then?
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Only attacking military targets would be my main advice. The less they attack civilians the more chances they have to convince Sols civilians of the rightness of their cause after the war.
And I for one make a point of never making threats I'm not willing to see through, so I would only threaten to bomb a target if I'm really willing to do it.
Besides, the GTVA doesn't need any drastic actions anymore. The UEF military is close to exhaustion and supply collapse. The only worry that remains is the secret project. Besides if the GTVA manages to make the UEF military give up, or become unable to fight, while still remaining alive it would much better illustrate the whole "we can protect you better than you can yourself" point the GTVA's been making at the beginning of the war, which will sway at least some people over to the GTVA side I'd imagine.
The threat of bombardment might have worked well the way it was originally planned, right after the 14th came into Sol, but now that the UEF is prepared for it, it would be an unnecessary and reckless risk of capitalships and most likely wouldn't work anymore anyway.
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Did you notice that almost all the strategy/tactics/pizza buying thread on this board boils down to one single thing.....
*puts on sunglasses*
THA SERKRET PROJECT..
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I'm not sure, but it might have something to do with it being important enough for the Elders and half the remaining fleet to put all their hopes into it... just maybe.
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The GTVA almost certainly has more cards up its sleeve than we know. They didn't just go to war over the "public" reasons, such as the danger of Ubuntu pacifism or the existence of the Fedayeen. Sol poses a greater potential threat than is truly known IMHO. GTVI knows about Vishnans, they know about Nagari and they know that the UEF knows about all this too.
Even for the militaristic GTVA, a peaceful reunion with Sol shouldn't have been out of the question. They are not stupid. They decided to draw up battle-plans with the very first battlegroup they sent through the gate without any other considerations. There is something in Sol that poses a huge threat: ideology, the Serkret project...a certain Nagari-sensitive individual perhaps?
We know Nagari is something to do with tangible communication with Shivans and Vishnans from certain "sensitive" Terran and Vasudans. It's hinted in the fiction that the Council of Elders have visions and speak to alien minds. What if the secret project is Sol's own version of ETAK? What if the GTVA knows way more about the Shivans' motives from their capture of Boschs device and knows about their ultimate motives? I'm just putting my thoughts on air here, but I think the GTVA is trying to protect the Feds from themselves.
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The GTVA almost certainly has more cards up its sleeve than we know. They didn't just go to war over the "public" reasons, such as the danger of Ubuntu pacifism or the existence of the Fedayeen. Sol poses a greater potential threat than is truly known IMHO. GTVI knows about Vishnans, they know about Nagari and they know that the UEF knows about all this too.
Even for the militaristic GTVA, a peaceful reunion with Sol shouldn't have been out of the question. They are not stupid. They decided to draw up battle-plans with the very first battlegroup they sent through the gate without any other considerations. There is something in Sol that poses a huge threat: ideology, the Serkret project...a certain Nagari-sensitive individual perhaps?
We know Nagari is something to do with tangible communication with Shivans and Vishnans from certain "sensitive" Terran and Vasudans. It's hinted in the fiction that the Council of Elders have visions and speak to alien minds. What if the secret project is Sol's own version of ETAK? What if the GTVA knows way more about the Shivans' motives from their capture of Boschs device and knows about their ultimate motives? I'm just putting my thoughts on air here, but I think the GTVA is trying to protect the Feds from themselves.
Very much agreed. I've held for a while that the GTVA has much better reasons for going to war than the ones that they've chosen to make public. If the GTVA suspects that the UEF is working on an analogue to ETAK and might be able to play the "Summon Shivans" card any day now, the Security Council's refusal to redeploy additional forces from their own systems for even a few weeks makes a lot more sense.
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But if they knew the UEF had a magical "call the Shivans" for help button that they could press (but wasn't operational yet), wouldn't the GTVA send in a lot more to stop that plan from becoming operational?
And if the UEF did do that, public support in the GTVA would swing drastically against Sol.
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Don't think it's quite as simple as "summon the Shivans". Will post later. :)
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If the GTVA suspected the UEF to try to communicate with the Shivans, then they'd have no reason to keep that secret. It's a better justification for the war than all the current official reasons combined.
Everyone in the GTVA fears the Shivans a great deal and the argument that they are trying to stop the UEF from making a terrible mistake that would destroy them and possibly take the GTVA down with them, would ring very well with the Shivan-paranoid GTVA population. Support for the invasion would be massive.
And if that really was the reason behind the war, they'd never have fought with the gloves on in the first place (or whatever you want to call Severantis way). The Shivans are far too dangerous to care about collateral damage.
Now if the GTVA only got aware of the secret project right before they put Steele in charge, that would make more sense, because that would explain why suddenly keeping collateral damage to a minimum is no longer important.
But I don't think even that would work for a simple reason: Vasudans.
If the GTVA thought the UEF was going to contact the Shivans, the Vasudans wouldn't sit by and watch.
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Since we are talking about the UEF and the Shivans, anyone notice that secret message on the Narayana?
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Say what?
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If the GTVA suspected the UEF to try to communicate with the Shivans, then they'd have no reason to keep that secret. It's a better justification for the war than all the current official reasons combined.
Everyone in the GTVA fears the Shivans a great deal and the argument that they are trying to stop the UEF from making a terrible mistake that would destroy them and possibly take the GTVA down with them, would ring very well with the Shivan-paranoid GTVA population. Support for the invasion would be massive.
And if that really was the reason behind the war, they'd never have fought with the gloves on in the first place (or whatever you want to call Severantis way). The Shivans are far too dangerous to care about collateral damage.
Now if the GTVA only got aware of the secret project right before they put Steele in charge, that would make more sense, because that would explain why suddenly keeping collateral damage to a minimum is no longer important.
But I don't think even that would work for a simple reason: Vasudans.
If the GTVA thought the UEF was going to contact the Shivans, the Vasudans wouldn't sit by and watch.
It doesn't just have to be the Shivans you know, Nagari allows for communication with Vishnans too. Khonsu is reluctant to put anything in Sol as he wants to keep the Vasudan military ready for what he believes is the real threat.
I'm convinced at least that the GTVA went to war for more than just the public reasons and it may or may not have something to do with Byrne's project, which itself may or may not be something similar to ETAK (though I believe it is). It's entirely possible that on a very high level both sides are aware of what the other is doing to some extent and that they have very different opinions on whether or not this is dangerous to the species' continued survival. The Terran assembly may well fear that if the Vasudans find out the full story they may take the side of the UEF. The Vasudans may in fact already know, distrust between the two races may mean they are both withholding vital information from one another.
According to the fiction, Vasudan members of the security council were never consulted before the invasion of Sol and the council may have known about Byrne's project before the 14th went in. The GTVA *thinks* that this project poses a threat to them, which would justify an invasion, but it may not necessarily pose a threat to the human race, at least not yet. If it did they would have charged in with their full armada to put a stop to it.
It could be a case that the longer the project remains in development the greater the threat it poses. There may be a threshold where its development simply can't be stopped, like Iran's nuclear ambitions.
I don't want to rely too much on techroom entries, but reading through them there are a lot of simliarities in the way the Council of Elders and Khonsu's administration work: they both combine hard science with metaphysics and mysticism and they both have members who claim they speak to alien minds. The 'great apocalyspe' which Khonsu is preparing his race to fight may be the same cause the UEF is preparing for and for whatever reason the Terran assembly doesn't agree.
Or it's all bull****. :cool:
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I don't want to rely too much on techroom entries, but reading through them there are a lot of simliarities in the way the Council of Elders and Khonsu's administration work: they both combine hard science with metaphysics and mysticism and they both have members who claim they speak to alien minds. The 'great apocalyspe' which Khonsu is preparing his race to fight may be the same cause the UEF is preparing for and for whatever reason the Terran assembly doesn't agree.
It is very much implied and even stated clearly several times that the Vasudans and the UEF have a lot in common.
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Yeah, that's true right enough. The odd one out is the Terran half of the GTVA. It's all guesswork anyway, I don't want to make a concerted effort to decode the fiction for risk of ruining the story (as if that can even happen). ;)
One thing I don't think has ever really been touched on is the existence and nature of the alternate universe the 14th visited in BP1. The Vishnans were very keen on not seeing the last bastion of humanity - the Sanctuary - annihilated, despite the fact that the human race still exists in 'our' universe. Why was it so important to get those last humans home safely? Why did the Shivans want them destroyed? Is the existence of Ubuntu somehow relevant for the Vishnans? I wonder what the real difference between the two universes is, asides from the absence of Terrans and Vasudans. The alternate universe never had ETAK, no deliberate communication from humans to Shivans. That stands out to me.
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According to the fiction, Vasudan members of the security council were never consulted before the invasion of Sol and the council may have known about Byrne's project before the 14th went in. The GTVA *thinks* that this project poses a threat to them, which would justify an invasion, but it may not necessarily pose a threat to the human race, at least not yet. If it did they would have charged in with their full armada to put a stop to it.
Would it have been any better had the planned invasion to Sol been revealed to the Vasudan SC members? As the old saying goes: "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission."
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One thing I don't think has ever really been touched on is the existence and nature of the alternate universe the 14th visited in BP1. The Vishnans were very keen on not seeing the last bastion of humanity - the Sanctuary - annihilated, despite the fact that the human race still exists in 'our' universe. Why was it so important to get those last humans home safely? Why did the Shivans want them destroyed? Is the existence of Ubuntu somehow relevant for the Vishnans? I wonder what the real difference between the two universes is, asides from the absence of Terrans and Vasudans. The alternate universe never had ETAK, no deliberate communication from humans to Shivans. That stands out to me.
I don't think the Vishnans cared for the Sanctuary one bit, or they'd have helped them before. I think the Vishnans wanted to make sure the 14th got back to their own reality, but changed in a way that screwed over the initial invasion. Since they let the Sancutary tag along, I highly doubt the Vishnans given reason of restoring the balance between the universes (for that the 14th would have had to return without the Sanctuary).
I also think the Vishnans are responsible for the Sanctuary being found by the Shivans:
First the 14th corsses to the other universe, then the Duke goes nuts and in their madness goes directly toward the Sanctuary. Then the Duke breaks down exactly where and when a scout wing of the big S happens to patrol the area. And just a moment before the GTVAs emisaries arrive at the Sanctuary, she happens to be discovered and attacked by the Shivans, enabling said emisaries to save the Sanctuary just in time.
That must have been the miltiverses biggest chain of extremely unlikely coincidences ever, or someone or something orchestrated the whole thing.
After that the Vishnans seem to sink into the background again, untill the moment where secret manipulations don't cut it anymore and they are finally forced to openly show their hand in order to save their unknowing pawns from the Shivans.
While I was always sceptical about the Vishnans, I never actually disliked them... untill I fnished the above piece of text...
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Sounds like the "mysterious being/force" truly responsible for the time tunnels in Chrono Trigger has set sail for the stars.
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I've always thought the Sanctuary was a necessary part of disrupting the 14th. Simply seeing Earth destroyed would not be enough necessarily and could even act to harden their resolve by demonstrating the dangers of the Shivans and the necessity of bringing Earth and its industrial capacity under GTVA control. Saving the Sanctuary, however, will put them in a very different frame of mind.
Similarly, the miscommunication at the node where the junior admiral does the stupid thing (in a very un-admiral-like move) and the Renjian starts shooting rather than surrendering to the assembled task force, thereby creating the preconditions for the war, also left me highly suspicious.
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The GTVA wants war because it is an excellent way of keeping their population distracted from what's going on at home. There could be a major event going on within the terran half of GTVA space and the general public won't know about it because their attention is drawn towards Sol instead.
Under that line of thinking, even the destruction of a Destroyer would not turn public opinion against the war. The GTVA would just cover up the fact that it happened and send in a replacement.
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Similarly, the miscommunication at the node where the junior admiral does the stupid thing (in a very un-admiral-like move) and the Renjian starts shooting rather than surrendering to the assembled task force, thereby creating the preconditions for the war, also left me highly suspicious.
The former is a Shivaphobic even by GTVA standards who had just escaped from a systemwide battle between Shivan and alien juggernauts and superjuggernauts, suddenly handed control of a battered fleet and ordered to proceed as planned, and thus panicked and fell back on his training to follow the timetable, declaring the already-overdue war. The latter believed the GTVA ships to have weapons comparable to his own and thus ordered an immediate engagement thinking he could hold them off until 3FJ reinforcements could arrive.
Extreme times, extreme circumstances.
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Since we are talking about the UEF and the Shivans, anyone notice that secret message on the Narayana?
Try looking at the Narayana in FRED (read: clipping through the model). You'll find a message regardin shivans and such + one admiral of the GTVA or something.
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I've always thought the Sanctuary was a necessary part of disrupting the 14th. Simply seeing Earth destroyed would not be enough necessarily and could even act to harden their resolve by demonstrating the dangers of the Shivans and the necessity of bringing Earth and its industrial capacity under GTVA control. Saving the Sanctuary, however, will put them in a very different frame of mind.
That's exactly what I was getting at. For me it seemed as if the Vishnans didn't care for the Sanctuary as a ship full of the last survivors of a species. For them it seemed to be a tool, or a figure on the board if you will, to manipulate the 14th BG into becoming what they wanted them to be.
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Since we are talking about the UEF and the Shivans, anyone notice that secret message on the Narayana?
I don't have FRED at work.
Inbox meh plox.
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(http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/8532/nrynauv.png) (http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/8532/nrynauv.png)
(http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/8530/nrynauv2.png) (http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/8530/nrynauv2.png)
(http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/8598/nrynauv3.png) (http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/8598/nrynauv3.png)
(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9219/nrynauv4.png) (http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9219/nrynauv4.png)
(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6389/nrynauv5.png) (http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6389/nrynauv5.png)
I think I got it all. Am still unsure about in which order those are supposed to be read.
Seems to be written from the GTVA point of view. Might be an extract from a tech entry or a fiction viewer of WiH2.
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Holy ****. :eek2:
Also, l like how Batman is classic literature in the 2300s.
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I think 2 probably follows 3, explaining why the Shivans limit their own tech.
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You guys are sly. Remind me never to play Defcon (or any rts) with you without teams being locked .
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That's the strangest easter egg ever. It could've made more sense if it was written, say, in the Atreus' fighterbay.
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Impossible. Raynor is tileraped, as is all the stratcomm's Tev fleet pack. Can't hide something in the UVMap with tileraped ships.
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Was that text in the original Nara or the retexture?
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Retexture of course. For the same tilerape-related reason as above.
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Impossible. Raynor is tileraped, as is all the stratcomm's Tev fleet pack. Can't hide something in the UVMap with tileraped ships.
After my recent effort completely redesigning the Diomedes (which is only missing LODs and debris ATM. All Uvmapped and textured), I enjoyed it so much I'm now strongly considering HTL-ing the rest of the Stratcomm fleet (well, the ships used in BP. no redesign, just higher poly models and UVmapped textures). Promises might not be worth much, but I am looking at doing it after exams. I'm also not sure about the policy on HTLing someone else's ships. Don't want to step on any toes.
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Please do it, I'm confident the original modeler would be flattered. The Raynor itself is already a high-poly version of an earlier iteration.
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I don't think it's written from the Tevs perspective. The only thing that implies that would be the 'colleague and respected friend, Admiral Chiwetel Steele' bit. That could easily be biting sarcasm... or maybe the Elders and the Security Council are playing a deeper game then we know.
Every single other bit implies that actually attempting to engage the shivans is futile by the logic of the author. That is NOT the Tev's strategy. They seek security through military means. The UEF, and a particular admiral in general, favor pacific deployments and whatever their secret project is. This sounds like the UEF backing up their own perspective on why they CAN survive against the Shivans, purely by refusing the fight them. If the Tev's plan was to plant a big cargo container filled with Meson bombs near every jump node, and just blow them up when the Shivans appeared, then maybe I could see this being from them.
But in BP, the Tevs are planning for a military response to the 'inevitable third incursion'. It's why they want earth's industrial capacity... make more warships.
If the conclusions held in the Nary easter egg were indeed from the Tev perspective, then either a) their intel types are totally ignored or b) The security council is retarded.
I think its a UEF perspective... i.e. why its on the Nary, rather then say, hidden in the Carthage's fighter bay for example.
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Remember that - as in the real world - all the governments and militaries in the BPverse contain competing schools of thought, with different interpretations of available intelligence, different policies they'd like to pursue, and different doctrines to advocate.
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The UEF never encountered Maras, either.
And the reason it isn't on a Tev ship is because all their capital ships are tilemapped ATM.
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After my recent effort completely redesigning the Diomedes (which is only missing LODs and debris ATM. All Uvmapped and textured), I enjoyed it so much I'm now strongly considering HTL-ing the rest of the Stratcomm fleet (well, the ships used in BP. no redesign, just higher poly models and UVmapped textures). Promises might not be worth much, but I am looking at doing it after exams. I'm also not sure about the policy on HTLing someone else's ships. Don't want to step on any toes.
Can you show as a WIP? Perhaps in another thread?
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Every single other bit implies that actually attempting to engage the shivans is futile by the logic of the author. That is NOT the Tev's strategy. They seek security through military means.
Security, not victory. The Tevs know that winning is impossible and are just entrenching themselves in hopes of weathering the next incursion without any stars blowing up.
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The UEF never encountered Maras, either.
And the reason it isn't on a Tev ship is because all their capital ships are tilemapped ATM.
A high level Admiral defected, he may have had access to data on the Mara. Can't rule out that they have it.
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But in BP, the Tevs are planning for a military response to the 'inevitable third incursion'. It's why they want earth's industrial capacity... make more warships.
If you think that "military response" is to go on the offensive and crush the Shivans, then you are wrong. Their whole strategy of countering the Shivan IS blowing up the nodes with meson bombs. The reason why they want to maintain such a big fleet isn't to defeat the Shivans, it's to buy time.
Even with all their advancements the GTVA made, they still couldn't hold off the Sathanas fleet, even if the Shivans don't bring anything new to the battle and the GTVA knows that. But as FS2 showed enough force can push the Shivans back temporarily. Not defeated or held of indefinately, but pushed back far and long enough to cut off their access route, before important terretory is lost.
The UEF never encountered Maras, either.
And the reason it isn't on a Tev ship is because all their capital ships are tilemapped ATM.
A high level Admiral defected, he may have had access to data on the Mara. Can't rule out that they have it.
So you're saying Admiral Bei spray painted that message onto the insides of the Nara? :P
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So you're saying Admiral Bei spray painted that message onto the insides of the Nara? :P
Serkret project! Serkret project!
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No i was saying its an easter egg that MAY be written from the PERSPECTIVE of the UEF.
I was opposed by saying the UEF had no info on the Mara.
To which I responded they may very well actually have that data.
But hey, maybe Bei has a passion fr large scale calligraphy :P
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To clarify my previous comment about Admiral Bei, in Glados' words: "That was a joke... haha... fat chance!"
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To clarify my previous comment about Admiral Bei, in Glados' words: "That was a joke... haha... fat chance!"
And to continue (courtesy GLaDOS): "Anyway, this Bei is great, its so delicious and moist"
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That's called cannibalism, actually. It's frowned upon in most cultures. :pimp:
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Well it's an AI
talking singing about eating an extra-terrestrial human so debatable perhaps. ;)
Nice name btw. :cool: Nothing like tea and crumpets with your supernova.
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People here have argued that the GTVA won't send another destroyer to Sol (I think one more would be a good idea but that's not particularly what I'm arguing for here); how about something 'halfway'? I.e., rotate out one of the Hecates and send in a better destroyer (Raynor or Titan)? That would still be an improvement I think.
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Hm, I guess the point was allready discussed.
How many Raynor and Titans were build?
Three each?
the Orestes and Temeraire won't be send to Sol after this whole mutinity thing, and the other two(wasn't one named Electra?) are properbly stationed around Capella.
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If new Raynors are introduced either in P2 or BP3, I hope they'll keep the current naming scheme of naming them after members of the house of Atreus. So Menelaus, Agamemnon, Thyestes, Electra, etc. Kinda like both Titans have been named after late 17th century British ships of the line.
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Well it's an AI talking singing about eating an extra-terrestrial human so debatable perhaps. ;)
Well, the Fed economy is controlled by incredibly precise simulations...
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People here have argued that the GTVA won't send another destroyer to Sol (I think one more would be a good idea but that's not particularly what I'm arguing for here); how about something 'halfway'? I.e., rotate out one of the Hecates and send in a better destroyer (Raynor or Titan)? That would still be an improvement I think.
As NGTM1R has noted repeatedly, the GTVA does have the ability to surge additional ships into the system via the node, possibly for an extended period of time. If and when they see fit to do so again is still up in the air.
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There is no question wether the GTVA can send another destroyer into Sol. The real question is wether the benefits of such an action outweight the costs and/or risks of doing it.
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Well they need destroyers to patrol 'trouble' systems (probably the former NTF ones like Polaris and Sirius) and ships for reactionary forces in case of Shivans. Those are probably the 'war ready' ships, ones that are fully supplied with ammo, fighters and such. Whatever is left is probably waiting on rotation or mothballed awaiting reactivation (in case of Shivs). Regardless, any ship that gets the call will probably have to be fitted with theatre specific gear and kitted out before being deployed, all of which must cost a bomb. The only case where a ship could be sent straight out is if the conflict is low level, which this sure ain't. :cool: Hell even peacekeeping forces in real life militaries get extensive training and specific gear before going out and none of that is cheap or quick to do.
It's all well and good saying "we haz 24 destys harr harr harr" but in reality probably no more than a third to a half would ever be actively deployed at an absolute maximum and even then not all of those would be sent to the same system (bottlenecking of supplies and such). If you ask me 5 destroyers is already a little excessive, not just because it's more than enough to get the job done, but because supplying all of those must be hell.
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Hm, and I really thought that the GTVA has every desty ready and armed for combat.
If what you say is true, then it could be too late to prep your capships for battle if the shiv pop out of thin air.
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If you ask me 5 destroyers is already a little excessive.
The current number of destroyers seems to be just about right, actually. During Delenda Est, every major GTVA asset was needed to keep UEF forces tied down. One less GTVA destroyer in-system would have likely meant a sizeable UEF force free to come to the Wargods' aid.
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If you ask me 5 destroyers is already a little excessive.
The current number of destroyers seems to be just about right, actually. During Delenda Est, every major GTVA asset was needed to keep UEF forces tied down. One less GTVA destroyer in-system would have likely meant a sizeable UEF force free to come to the Wargods' aid.
Funny to discuss that aspect which was obiously written to be " just about right" :)
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Hm, and I really thought that the GTVA has every desty ready and armed for combat.
If what you say is true, then it could be too late to prep your capships for battle if the shiv pop out of thin air.
Yeah, I kind of assumed that the Tevs are so paranoid of another Shivan incursion that they have at least one active-duty destroyer/carrier in every system just to hold the line against the Shivans until fast response teams and strategic battlegroups can arrive.
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Hm, and I really thought that the GTVA has every desty ready and armed for combat.
If what you say is true, then it could be too late to prep your capships for battle if the shiv pop out of thin air.
Yeah, I kind of assumed that the Tevs are so paranoid of another Shivan incursion that they have at least one active-duty destroyer/carrier in every system just to hold the line against the Shivans until fast response teams and strategic battlegroups can arrive.
Just basing what we know on how real life navies work (or at least *most* real life navies). The 'war ready' ships will be the ones currently active which is probably as you say: at least one in each system plus reactionary forces. The GTVA economy isn't so stellar (no pun intended) so it's likely not all 24 are currently active ('active' being on patrol or reaction standby), but almost all are probably capable of being deployed at some point. It's just common sense that you don't have your entire military active unless it is during a total war, which isn't the case yet, at least for the Tevs. Plus rotation means it is impossible to have more than 50-70% of your forces deployed unless it's a dire last stand or some other catastrophic situation. <--Scratch that, not thinking with ships. Personnel will be rotated regularly, but ships probably stay out longer until supplies or repair is needed, just as in WiH.
This is what I mean in a nutshell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_strike_group#Active_Carrier_Strike_Groups
Half of the USN is ready to go, the rest is on standby or peacetime ops.
It all depends on how much the defence budget allows. In the UK no more than half the army can ever be deployed because it is too criplingly expensive to do so (even before the recession).
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The current number of destroyers seems to be just about right, actually.
The question is, is 5 destroyers enough to win and not just hold the line?
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Judging by how well the GTVA's doing, I'd say it's enough to win.
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http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=80495.0
Would be nice if the GTVA could get these new Diomedes. :D
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http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=80495.0
Would be nice if the GTVA could get these new Diomedes. :D
That's what it was made for, why wouldn't they?
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Sorry, I didn't realize it was going to be an official part of the BP universe; I thought it was a just for fun remodeling.
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Isn't all this stuff around here just for fun? :)
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No! This is serious ****! The GTVA must conquer the homeworld! Long live the colonies! /Jihadmode
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No, the GTVA and the UEF must be enslaved and placed under slave shields for their own good. Long live the Ur-Quan Hierarchy.
And don't you dare summon the Kohr-Ah.
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Get Yaiceca to teach those puny Jerrans who they're supposed to worship.
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Laporte Lesbian Space Porn Mind Control.
That is all.
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Laporte Lesbian Space Porn Mind Control.
That is all.
(http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-frogout.gif)
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Laporte Lesbian Space Porn Mind Control.
That is all.
We are the Ur-Quan Kohr-Ah. Your presence here is premature. We fight the Kzer-Za for supremacy of Doctrine and possession of the Sa-Matra. When the battle is won, our task is simple: We cleanse. You are the filth.
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Anyways...... :p
Put yourself in Admiral Steele's shoes for this topic question: GTVI has mentioned the UEF is working on some 'secret project' but that's really all you know; what do you do?
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Finding out what this secret project actually is. Considering that the 1st Fleet is playing sitting duck to protect it, the project must be something of high value and could even turn the tides of this war.
I wonder if Steele already knows what the secret project is.
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It is quite obvious that the Serkret Project is a stupidity ray of tremendous scale, designed to allow the vile UEF forces to make our pilots and admiral's IQs drop by -345 and indoctrinate them into following Ubuntu, and to make them hate crumpets and Earl Grey Tea.
We Shivans must destroy this abomination before it can be used against us: Imagine, a future where we HATE crumpets and tea because the UEF used this SPAAAACE WMD upon us. It is a horrific future to think of, is it not?
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It is quite obvious that the Serkret Project is a stupidity ray of tremendous scale, designed to allow the vile UEF forces to make our pilots and admiral's IQs drop by -345 and indoctrinate them into following Ubuntu, and to make them hate crumpets and Earl Grey Tea.
We Shivans must destroy this abomination before it can be used against us: Imagine, a future where we HATE crumpets and tea because the UEF used this SPAAAACE WMD upon us. It is a horrific future to think of, is it not?
Earl Grey and crumpets are the iconic foodstuff of England, which is on Earth, which is consequently within UEF territory. Thus rather than make everyone hate tea and crumpets, it stands to reason that the ray would make everyone develop an uncontrollable addiction to them, which would result in a galactic wide shortage and allow for the UEF to hold their mighty tea and crumpet production and the fact that only the UEF can produce enough for all terrans over the GTVAs head.
*UEF uses the real ETAC (Earl-grey Tea And Crumpet) device.
*GTVA almost collapses due to insufficient T&C production levels.
*UEF demonstrates ability to keep up with supply and demand.
*GTVA becomes becomes the UEF's *****
*?????????
*PROFIT!!!
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Or:
*UEF uses the real ETAC (Earl-grey Tea And Crumpet) device.
*GTVA almost collapses due to insufficient T&C production levels.
*UEF demonstrates ability to keep up with supply and demand.
*Security Council redoubles war effort, telling their citizens that they are doing this to capture the tea and crumpets intact.
*GTVA military blows up tea and crumpets instead.
*GTVA citizenry rises up in rebellion, eats Security Council.
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Or:
GTVA accepts that coffee is superior to T&C, and invade Sol to free UEF citizens from Ubuntu T&C tyranny. Invade with with swarms of cheap, disposable GTF Starbucks and GTB Tim Hortons, which land on every street corner and airlock, strangling UEF T&C distribution.
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How would the GTD McDonalds be used? ;)
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Or:
*Bosch returns as the vanguard of a Shivan armada domesticated by alcoholism from Bosch beer
*Shivans looking for partay accidently open new Sol node
*Drunk-driven Saths wreck UEF fleet
*NTF galvanised by return of Bosch, take over universe
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Ha, wasn't even a Queen. That'd be the Imperiouse or Serkr Group, methinks. The Carthage would be some other power piece, yes, but not the Queen.
I actually meant the Imperieuse when I talked about the Queen.
Pretending the Queen is out of the game and promote the Carthage for the time being, it is the perfect bait, 'cause, as we know, the UEF wanted desperatly to deal a heavy blow to the TEVs...Damn shame Steele lured them into his trap.
Considering the Deadalus base...the Tevs are able to jump meson bombs, while they won't send a meson bomb to said base and demand them to stand down, what about a realy huge EMP?
We know the Tevs got EMP missiles, but what about a meson bomb sized EMP warhead, which would simply disable the whole defensive systems, so they can jump in and destroy them?
And does that mean that the UEF has Mjolnir like torpedo platforms?
Queen? Not even the Imperieuse is a queen. It's a rook.
The queen would be the Atreus. With that experimental sprint drive and whatever other modifications/experimental tech Steele decided to use, she's got both the mobility, range, and power of a queen on a chess board.
The Carthage is more like a bishop, or a knight. Serker is most definitely a knight.
What was lost at the battle in Delenda Est?
For the GTVA, it was a destroyer's fighter wings, and major (but repairable) damage to all but the Carthage. Strategically, the existence of a fully-repaired Imperieuse in Sol (that was believed to be in DS under repair and resupply) became known to the UEF, too. But only barely, really, as hardly anyone on the Indus seems to have survived to tell the tale.
For the UEF, it was the complete loss of the War Gods, an elite task force made up of four frigates, two cruisers, several fighter wings, and several of the best pilots and captains in the UEF. They also took some logistical damage when baiting the Carthage at the beginning. The Indus MIGHT be capable of repair, but doing so would take months; the damage sustained is massive and extensive, and much of its crew and command staff are dead or in need of serious and constant medical treatment for months.
In other words, the UEF took a gigantic military and morale loss. The GTVA took a temporary military setback, but a massive morale victory. Only a destroyer's worth of fighter wings was lost--though the Carthage's carrier capacity is probably the lowest in the GTVA for a destroyer.
As soon as the Carthage's battle group is repaired, the GTVA should launch a three-pronged assault on three vital UEF assets. The UEF commits a big chunk of their forces to save each of them, or they lose whichever one they don't try to save. Hopefully, a Solaris will show up to at least one of them.
Wherever a Solaris--or its equivalent--shows up, two of the other GTVA battle groups, held back in reserve, jump in and ambush it. One dead Solaris--or a ton of UEF frigates. Expect Serker to act in a similar fashion on a smaller scale.
Once that's accomplished, assuming it's possible or opportune, the GTVA battle groups will jump out. Pegasi fighters will monitor the UEF's situation throughout; if they see an opportunity for Serker (or even the Atreus, if possible) to take out a frigate or two, they'll send word.
Losses on the UEF's side will be utterly devastating. The GTVA will have an AWACS with each battle group, so their beams will always be on target. TAG missiles will also be used, as a backup. With the GTVA's sufficient AAA and fighter cover, only the Narayana class's gauss cannons will present a significant threat outside of the GTVA's effective range. However, they can't do nearly enough damage in time, as they'd lose those vital UEF assets by the time it started working. And, you know, those battle groups the GTVA has in reserve.
The GTVA has no doubt already positioned several Mjoilner sentry guns at the jump node, and will likely still have several ships there for defense. Any UEF attempt to destroy the Knossos gate on the other side will require serious strategic planning ahead of time, and will require enough ships to withstand heavy losses. Not an option in their present state under the situation. Plus, any such action, if successful, would ensure total defeat when the GTVA's Sol fleet accept heavy losses and go for the throat. If such an action is unsuccessful, then the GTVA gets "scared" and deploys another battle group (or two) to Sol. Well, NOW it's game over.
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The Carthage in the context of Delenda Est is more like the King. Big, slow, and not particularly useful, but likely to lose the war for you if it gets taken.
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I'd also like to point out that it is very possible to actually destroy every single ship in Delenda Est leading up to the Carthage if you take out their engines. Being a scattering of debris in space doesn't really qualify as "repairable damage".
Not saying the Wargods won or anything, just that how it happened on your playthrough does not necessarily reflect how somebody else saw it.
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Yeah but I was under the impression that the BP canon ending was that all GTVA ships (maybe with the exception of the Antenor and Norfolk) escaped with repairable damage. You can destroy the Meridian in Post Meridian... but I do remember being told that the canon ending was that it escaped.
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You can destroy the Meridian in Post Meridian... but I do remember being told that the canon ending was that it escaped.
Wrong. The Meridian engines are guardianned and the destroyer gets guardianned and jumps when his health gets low enough. I know the mission by heart since I made the multiplayer version of it. Two versions in fact.
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You can't destroy the Meridian in Post Meridian, though there is a debriefing stage for it.
The unfortunate fact is that there is no way for us to carry over vars from R1 to R2, so even if you managed to disable a bunch of Carthage escorts, we can't account for that in R2.
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The unfortunate fact is that there is no way for us to carry over vars from R1 to R2
Get coders on it nao !
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They got spanked big-time so I think its safe to assume they are still in for repair and out of the picture after the war ends. "Final weeks of the war" probably wasn't for show.
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"Final weeks of the war" probably wasn't for show.
I read on the BP website that 'final weeks of the war' refers to the first part of WIH. So I wonder how much time the second part will cover?
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I would assume maybe two weeks tops. What excites ME about R2 is that the war looks like its going to drag on for quite a while but its somehow almost over.
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It can't drag on for a while. UEF logistics are wrecked and they have at most a couple of months worth of supplies, and that's the most optimistic estimations. Knowing Steele, he'll apply as much pressure as humanly possible to reduce that potential lifespan even further.
Either the UEF find a way to drive the Tevs out of Sol NOW, or they'll just face logistical collapse. Either way, we're looking at the end of the war right here.
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Vishnan battlefleet, GO!!!
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Shivan rush, kekekekeke.
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Shivan rush, kekekekeke.
BP is too hipster to do that.
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BP is hardly hipster. It's, actually, probably the most mainstream campaign out there: everyone played it !
WCS is hipster - making mods for HLP is too mainstream.
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Shivan rush, kekekekeke.
BP is too hipster to do that.
We might do it ironically.
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We might do it ironically.
I admit, I can see you guys doing something like "we called the Shivans" "you idiots now we all die" "no we can talk to them" "HI WE DON'T CARE WHAT YOU SAY DIE NOW AND GIVE US YOUR LUNCHES"
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We might do it ironically.
I admit, I can see you guys doing something like "we called the Shivans" "you idiots now we all die" "no we can talk to them" "HI WE DON'T CARE WHAT YOU SAY DIE NOW AND GIVE US YOUR LUNCHES"
That won't happen, the UEF will just bribe them with Laporte's space lesbian porn. Then, with the Shivan fleet as their vanguard, they will show the GTVA the might of Holy Terra!
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That won't happen, the UEF will just bribe them with Laporte's space lesbian porn. Then, with the Shivan fleet as their vanguard, they will show the GTVA the might of Holy Terra!
(http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-frogout.gif)
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Yeah, can we try to stay at least relatively on topic and serious please?
The "Laporte lesbian porn!!!" stuff may have been funny the first few times it was posted...
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I kinda expect the "shivan rush" to be something like "Mr Snuggles" was for WiH1.
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To be completely serious I can barely wait to see the conclusion of the conflict and the reasons behind why whatever ends it, happens.
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To be completely serious I can barely wait to see the conclusion of the conflict and the reasons behind why whatever ends it, happens.
Yeah, the war between the UEF and GTVA is about to end one way or another pretty freaking soon. (well, in terms of in-game continuity. damn i hate waiting...)
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We could've had it done by now if work had proceeded at the same pace it did on R1.
If it appears that we've hit a fatal morass with no prospect of recovery, we will write the story up as a series of fiction pieces and release those over the course of a month or two.
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(Kind of unrelated to subject at hand, apologies in advance)
I always wondered about the logistics behind using subspace missiles in the Sol theater. They have the potential to be extremely useful, and I'm not quite sure why they aren't used more often. A couple of well placed SSM strike can do a considerable amount of damage to an unprepared Karuna or Narayana, possibly forcing the ship out of the conflict for several days or forcing it to operate in less than optimal capacity.
Actual delivery is not much of an issue (to my knowledge). An AWACS or an Aurora jumping in at long range probably has time to vector in at least one or two strikes before being forced out of the engagement zone. Also, the Pegasus. The GTVA have demonstrated the capability of keeping several pegasii hidden in UEF Space for extended periods (in "One perfect moment", granted the operation was planned out far in advance). A pair of these loaded out with TAG-Cs have the potential to wreak havoc on UEF supply lines or patrolling warships before anyone really knows what is happening. In this case the only way I can see this tactic failing is if the UEF's subspace detectors are sensitive enough to pick up two fighters designed to minimize their subspace profile.
I kind of assumed that SSMs have about the same logistical drain as modern Tomahawks. They are expensive, but considering the amount of money and supplies that are being devoted to Sol, this seems to be somewhat of a non issue (Although the loss of the Agincourt may change this). An SSM strike probably costs less than fielding a squadron of Artemis bombers with escort to the same effect. And if an SSM strike is unsuccessful, it is far less of a loss than that of experienced pilots and equipment.
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They are super duper uber expensive. That is pretty much the balancing factor. Bear in mind that each missile needs its own ridiculously specialized subspace drive, plus you need to shoot them out of the Atreus or Imperieuse.
There is good reason they didn't show up in the campaign much. In the future, of course, SSMs may play a larger role in combat; the GTVA is extremely keen on them as a system defense option.
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Are there two versions of the Eos, then? One that the Atreus / Imperiuse use for SSMs and another for tactical engagements?
Edit: In the future, of course, SSMs may play a larger role in combat; the GTVA is extremely keen on them as a system defense option.
:eek2:
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Yes, the SSM Eos is not identical to the standard Eos.
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There is good reason they didn't show up in the campaign much. In the future, of course, SSMs may play a larger role in combat; the GTVA is extremely keen on them as a system defense option.
I remember suggesting that if the GTVA had any surface-to-orbit missile batteries they'd probably first in line for SSM conversion once upon a time.
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On another tangent, I've always been kind of curious about.
If this can't be answered for story reasons I understand, but if it can:
Was the capture of the Agincourt all part of the plan (Steele's plan to moustrap the UEF strike on the Carthage) from the beginning? Or did he create the plan afterwards?
Was the agent actively working for Steele and misleading the UEF? Or was Steele feeding misinformation to the agent?
The only reason I ask this is because the Agincourt plan was predicated on the absence of the Imperiuse... and if you think about it, when the toutatis jumps in to wreck the hood, the Imperiouse and a couple of well places strike corvettes could've jumped in and wrecked the **** out of the Toutatis. Maybe not outright killed it.. but a flank jump with all that forward firepower would've done some major damage.
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There is good reason they didn't show up in the campaign much. In the future, of course, SSMs may play a larger role in combat; the GTVA is extremely keen on them as a system defense option.
I remember suggesting that if the GTVA had any surface-to-orbit missile batteries they'd probably first in line for SSM conversion once upon a time.
Unless the planets gravity prevents launches from the surface. Do we have any information of wether surface/atmospheric jumps are possible in BP? All we know for sure is that they are possible from the Moon's surface. Maybe we'll see dedicated SSM launching platforms in high orbit.
The only reason I ask this is because the Agincourt plan was predicated on the absence of the Imperiuse... and if you think about it, when the toutatis jumps in to wreck the hood, the Imperiouse and a couple of well places strike corvettes could've jumped in and wrecked the **** out of the Toutatis. Maybe not outright killed it.. but a flank jump with all that forward firepower would've done some major damage.
The situation in the battle against the Hood had too many unknowns and was simply too dangerous to risk the Imp in. Remember the UEF had the GTVAs beams jammed (maybe even for the first time ever?). Jumping in the Imp would have left her without her main armament and unless it got a sprint drive, she would have ended up a sitting duck and easily destroyed by the Toutatis. The same goes for any strike corvettes, except perhaps Diomedes, since their slashers were unaffected by the jamming, but they already lost the Medea and the Valerie at that point, so they probably didn't have another Dio available.
It's also possible that the Imp simply wasn't battle-ready at the time (or simply didn't have their jumpdrives charged up). Remember it got mauled earlier in the war so badly that the UEF assumed they'd been pulled back to Delta Serpentis for repairs.
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Unless the planets gravity prevents launches from the surface. Do we have any information of wether surface/atmospheric jumps are possible in BP? All we know for sure is that they are possible from the Moon's surface. Maybe we'll see dedicated SSM launching platforms in high orbit.
I wasn't suggesting they jump from the surface (and being surface-to-orbit missiles originally they don't have to), simply that they'd be a logical first refit or development once you got the SSM concept to work. You can have missiles the size of fighters or bigger and launching them from a ground base one stage to space, one stage to target, is just easier than hauling them up to space during which they are vulnerable and can't be used and doing one stage to target. It also offers the possibility of some concealment from first strikes.
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Remember it got mauled earlier in the war so badly that the UEF assumed they'd been pulled back to Delta Serpentis for repairs.
On that last point: I don't think the UEF actually touched the Imperieuse, it is simply said that it retreated to Delta Serptentis to resupply.
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Are there two versions of the Eos, then? One that the Atreus / Imperiuse use for SSMs and another for tactical engagements?
Yes, missile launchers on Tev destroyers are specifically said to be able to launch different kind of missiles. ("One of a number of munitions that can be launched from the Raynor's multiple missile batteries, the Eos is a long-range weapon..." quote : Eos tech room description).
Was the capture of the Agincourt all part of the plan (Steele's plan to moustrap the UEF strike on the Carthage) from the beginning? Or did he create the plan afterwards?
Opinions diverge on that point, but my personal opinion is that the Agincourt's capture was NOT part of Steele's plan. However, he DID have contingencies in place for this or a similar kind of event, in this case, asking for Vasudan support, which leads to free supplies that can't be actively targeted by the UEF for diplomatic reasons, so don't need heavy escort like his own supply chains. Which means Steele is actually in a better position strategically AFTER the Agincourt capture than he was BEFORE.
tl;dr : Steele didn't plan it, but he masterfully used it to strengthen his position.
Was the agent actively working for Steele and misleading the UEF? Or was Steele feeding misinformation to the agent?
The mole was, or at least is strongly hinted to be, former Rear Admiral Thea Carey, former commanding officer of the GTD Temeraire during AoA (see Conversations from War in Heaven (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70645.0), the "Bergher-Tanikawa Suites" part). She gets arrested, probably after they found out she was the one leaking the intel on the Agincourt's jump schedules ("You gave them the ****ing jump schedules, you traitorous piece of ****. There were ten thousand people in that -") (which is one of the main reasons for my opinion above), and Steele then faked her identity as a mole to feed the UEF misinformation about the Carthage.
The only reason I ask this is because the Agincourt plan was predicated on the absence of the Imperiuse... and if you think about it, when the toutatis jumps in to wreck the hood, the Imperiouse and a couple of well places strike corvettes could've jumped in and wrecked the **** out of the Toutatis. Maybe not outright killed it.. but a flank jump with all that forward firepower would've done some major damage.
Well, Steele probably thought it was better to keep the Imperieuse for a better opportunity strike where it hurts. Sure, loosing the Big T would have been a huge victory for the GTVA, but arguably striking the master blow to the Wargods was a much, much stronger blow to UEF morale. Besides, heavy jamming in the Aristeia combat zone from both sides probably means Steele didn't had an accurate or reliable intel to send the Imperieuse in. Did he even know the Toutatis was there ? How could he know the UEF didn't have a couple of Narayanas or something ready to wreak the first destroyer that would show its blue nose into the fray ?
Not to mention that Steele might already have decided by that point that it was actually better on the strategic point to loose the Agincourt, and gain Zod support, than unveiling his master card.
On that last point: I don't think the UEF actually touched the Imperieuse, it is simply said that it retreated to Delta Serptentis to resupply.
The Imperieuse led Darkest Hour's blitz ("Galactic Terran forces of the GTD Imperieuse battlegroup have overwhelmed our defences at several key positions." quote : DH briefing, "The GTD Imperieuse's squadrons blitzed the entire Sol Sector in a single, massive coordinated strike. " quote : DH debriefing).
"The Imperieuse has withdrawn to Delta Serpentis to restock its squadrons." quote : DH debrief.
"The GTD Imperieuse has withdrawn to Delta Serpentis to replenish its squadrons after spearheading the Blitz against Earth." quote : The Plunder brief.
"The Hood is still undergoing repairs from the thrashing we gave it, and our source says the Imperieuse is still in Delta Serpentis resupplying from the Blitz." quote : DE brief.
So yes, nothing says anywhere the Imp took a significant beating. Since the Imp didn't have access to a drydock during her time in hiding, if she was wrecked, she wouldn't seem intact at DE. She could have taken a few shots they managed to repair in-field during all that time though.
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The question of exactly whether the Agincourt capture was part of Steele's plan can probably be answered by careful examination of 'Conversations from War in Heaven'.
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Well, it says the conversations are chronologically ordered and non-simultaneous. So...
"Aboard GTD Imperieuse" = pre-blitz?
"Aboard UEFg Yangtze" = probably before Laporte gets transferred
"Bergher-Tanikawa Suites, Duchenne, New Berge, Hulldown Continent, Beta Aquilae" = after the capture of the Agincourt
"Aboard GTC Arcane" = between that and the assassination plot
"Aboard GTD Atreus" = pre-delenda est?
So "contingencies for the contingencies" was after the capture of the Agincourt as well. :doubt:
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On the other side of things...if you were Steele (or some other GTVA military person), how do you think the war should go from a GTVA strategic standpoint? What would you do to win the war for them?
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Surrender.
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Okay seriously, assuming i'm not allowed to sue for peace or defect, i would probably have the Atreus go Solaris hunting, perhaps with Serkr team in support if they can jump as quick as the Atreus seems to in Darkest Hour; they might be able to get in, cause some proper damage (maybe even destroy the target) and pull out before the UEF can properly respond or the Solaris' torpedoes can hit.
[rant] What i certainlty wouldn't be doing is bombing civilians and blowing up medical transports!!! *waves fist at imagined Steele* [/rant]
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The only thing Steele has to do to win the war is wait. The UEF military is in such a logistical disarray after 18 months of warfare and the Earth Blitz that it is sure to collapse in months or weeks. Steele just has to maintain enough pressure to make sure they don't recover. By the end of WiH, the war's fate is already decided.
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The only thing Steele has to do to win the war is wait. The UEF military is in such a logistical disarray after 18 months of warfare and the Earth Blitz that it is sure to collapse in months or weeks. Steele just has to maintain enough pressure to make sure they don't recover. By the end of WiH, the war's fate is already decided.
Of course, there's also increased political pressure to draw the war to a rapid conclusion. The real threat to the GTVA comes not from the UEF military but from its own political and social powder kegs.
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There's also the "Secret Project" of Byrne.
From the GTVA's perspective: if it turns out to be really dangerous, they might want to bring in another destroyer.
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it's been rather strongly hinted that the secret project is not something that will be affected by bringing more military assets to bear against it.
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it's been rather strongly hinted that the secret project is not something that will be affected by bringing more military assets to bear against it.
Unless it's completely noncorporeal, this is somewhat doubtful. And I don't think the UEF are THAT good.
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I don't think they've hinted that the secret project is necessarily an instant win button for the UEF either.
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The war doesn't have to end with a UEF victory for the UEF to survive. The "Project" could be anything that would stop the war, force the Tev to retreat, make the Tevs loose popular support, force everyone to focus on something else, whatever. Probably something nobody here that isn't in the BP team has thought of.
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Admittedly , Steele may not have as much time as he would like, but from a military perspective if I were him I'd concentrate on hit and run attacks against transports/logistics and whatnot. Solarises aren't the only valuable military target out there (of course if the opportunity presents itself you take it out).
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Seekrit Project notwithstanding, it's in the GTVA's best interest to grind the UEF to a logistical collapse. The GTVA will be in a much better position against the Shivans if they can take the UEF's warships intact after the UEF runs out of fuel and ammunition than if they have to blow up the remaining UEF fleet.
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That's not as huge of an advantage as you might think. UEF vessels are by design very short-legged and logisitics intensive. They can afford to be, they have what is presumably the single largest industrial and logistics base in Terran or Vasudan space. The GTVA's TEI doctrine on dealing with Shivans is not well suited to having lots of expensive, high performance, short-legged vessels clogging up the orders of battle and logistical pipelines.
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That's not as huge of an advantage as you might think. UEF vessels are by design very short-legged and logisitics intensive. They can afford to be, they have what is presumably the single largest industrial and logistics base in Terran or Vasudan space. The GTVA's TEI doctrine on dealing with Shivans is not well suited to having lots of expensive, high performance, short-legged vessels clogging up the orders of battle and logistical pipelines.
While true, there are certainly specific technologies that the UEF uses (the beam jammers) which would be of immense value. Their bombers would also be welcome additions. Taking as much of their military intact as possible broadens the chances of getting the tech needed.
Also simply having all the hardware available to police Earth and protect it is valuable since that will be the GTVA's largest industrial base in Terran or Vasudan space.
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I strongly doubt UEF beam jamming would work against Shivan targeting systems. And apart from the Lapith, I think UEF bombers are a little too unwieldy to be really viable. There's a reason the GTVA considers heavy bombers like the Ursa a dead end. The Uriel might have a role, but I think the GTVA would be better off designing their own version to extend range and endurance (though the Nyx might already qualify. Doesn't have the Archer, but has more missile capacity and is more maneuverable).
Slammers and Paveways, on the other hand...
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That's not as huge of an advantage as you might think. UEF vessels are by design very short-legged and logisitics intensive. They can afford to be, they have what is presumably the single largest industrial and logistics base in Terran or Vasudan space. The GTVA's TEI doctrine on dealing with Shivans is not well suited to having lots of expensive, high performance, short-legged vessels clogging up the orders of battle and logistical pipelines.
Support from GTVA logistics ships could probably mitigate this to some extent. Worst case, using UEF designs to guard Sol and other highly developed systems with the infrastructure to support them would free up the ships that would normally perform those duties for offensive operations.
Also, Narayanas with AWACS support for precision jumps are the closest thing anyone has to an effective anti-Sathanas weapon by a pretty wide margin.
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I thought the best way to kill Sathanes was to flank them with Chimera and Bellerophon spam directed by Aurora fighters. I doubt the GTVA can use Solarises and Narayanas to their maximum potential without building a lot more solar antimatter farms to get the antimatter for all their Apocalypse torpedoes.
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Antimatter isn't an issue. The UEF already has enormous stockpiles of antimatter from decades of harvesting.
If the Tevs manage to capture most of the UEF fleet intact and ready to serve, I doubt they'll just throw it away. It's just too many ships to scrap and replace. Once the shipbuilding facilities and industrial power get into the hands of the Tevs and get retrofitted for Tev use, I do expect enough new designs to be rolled out quickly enough to make captured UEF ships obsolete some years after the fact.
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A particular question along those lines:
What would the GTVA do if they win the war and manage to take a Solaris; what would they do with that?
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Probably use it, as it is or make some very small upgrades/changes.
Refitting a ship intended for torpedo and gattler spam with meson reactors, beam emitters and a powernet to support all would be such a massive change that it comes down to taking the ship completely apart and rebuilding it into something that is most likely going to be a hackjob working only half the time.
The ressources and time are much better used in building a new ship from the ground up.
And the Solarises are just a bit too usefull intact to let them rot away (figurativly speaking) im some junkyard or spacedock.
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Heavy carrier. It's got more fighter capacity than the Hecate (maybe more than the Titan), and can certainly defend itself better, though I expect it expends its magazines fairly quickly. Retrofitting it with meson reactors and anything bigger than AAAs probably isn't worth the trouble, though. Would work fine as it is as a staging point for fighter and bomber attacks.
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They would probably just leave the ship in storage for study. Having a warship like this is a logistical nightmare, even to the UEF (huge ammunition expenditure if actually used in combat, and more fighter squadrons means more supplies need to be diverted to the ship). I got the impression that the Solaris followed the philosophy of the rest of the UEF: Costly, high performance for a short period. It excels at defending single system with secured supply chains, but I can't imagine it handling an offensive campaign without having a disproportionate logistical drain. Granted, the GTVA might use it as a core system defender, but having to take a ship with completely different system architecture and attempting to integrate it into the fleet would probably be more trouble than its worth. Not to mention that the ship's main armament is antimatter based, which would be very difficult for the GTVA to constantly replace (at least until they gain total infrastructural control of the UEF).
E: Typos.
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I get the feeling that a Solaris would end up a testbed for long-range missile tech. I almost said it would make a good artillery ship if upgraded with SSMs but the GTVA would probably want something more TEI-compliant to actually field, if it isn't part of the Raynor's strategic profile already.
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They might copypaste some green beams onto it like they did with the Orions to cut down on needed logistics but only if they were desperate. Otherwise I'd guess it woulnd't be used because as others have mentioned it is a real supply hog which isn't very useful for the GTVA since they have much higher endurance warships already.
At least, I'd assume its a supply hog since it was built by the UEF and uses mostly weaponry that involves shooting big chunks of metal and antimatter at the enemy instead of melting them with beams of plasma.
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I strongly doubt UEF beam jamming would work against Shivan targeting systems.
It's not a targeting issue. Beams are magnetically bottled plasma streams; they disrupt the bottle and so the beams are ineffective. (Or so the team says.)
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Yeah, but this doesn't seem to work 100% of the time (at least in the case of the slash beams on the corvettes in TBI, which are harder to jam, they were able to fight through) and the GTVA has demonstrated the ability to punch through with the right hardware - for example if the target is well-TAGged.
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Wait... wasn't the UEF jamming messing with the target calculation rather than the magnetic bottle itself?
If they could destabilize the magnetic bottle, it would mean the beam would still be on target, but would lose coherence much sooner or "leak" out of the sides resulting in the shots still being on target, but doing less damage.
But UEF jamming makes the beams go wide, though whatever object happans to be in the beams new (unintended) path is still hit by the full strength of the weapon.
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Look, if we could have curved beams, we probably would have used them.
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Squiggly beamz would look 8 kinds of epic.
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Hmm, if the jammers disrupted the magnetic bottle, the whole TAGged thing doesn't make much sense... I always thought it was messing with the fire control/targeting technobabble of the beams...
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Hmm, if the jammers disrupted the magnetic bottle, the whole TAGged thing doesn't make much sense... I always thought it was messing with the fire control/targeting technobabble of the beams...
No, it makes sense. The jamming technology disrupts the attacker's ability to draw a magnetic bottle all the way from emitter to target. A TAG beacon gives sufficient information to compensate for the disruption and punch through. It is messing with fire control and targeting, just not a form of fire control and targeting that could be overcome by boresight aiming.
If it were 'just' aiming being screwed with, the beams could be dumbfired straight ahead.
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It's not a targeting issue. Beams are magnetically bottled plasma streams; they disrupt the bottle and so the beams are ineffective. (Or so the team says.)
Serkr Team fired just fine in Aristeia.
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No, they tried to fire once or twice, then realized that their beams were pulled off-target, and tried to do what they could with pulse cannons.
Also note that beam jamming only affects large direct-fire beams; AAA beams and slashers are unaffected.
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But the beams fired, so the jamming was clearly a targeting/fire control issue, not something that actively prevents beams from firing. Therefore, there's little to suggest that it would affect Shivan beam effectiveness.
I like the explanation Battuta provided.
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Shivan beams are already hardly perfect in aim. Any disruption helps, since a single missed BFRed can mean the difference between escaping a battle and exploding into tiny pieces.
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If the GTVA could capture some of them intact, Karunas or Narayanas might be good for blockade duties (though they'd still require increased logistics).
Or would the GTVA likely scrap most of those (assuming a GTVA win)?
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Also note that beam jamming only affects large direct-fire beams; AAA beams and slashers are unaffected.
Presumably these weapons could also be affected if targeted with the right methodology, though the difficulty is doubtless pretty variable.
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If the GTVA could capture some of them intact, Karunas or Narayanas might be good for blockade duties (though they'd still require increased logistics).
Or would the GTVA likely scrap most of those (assuming a GTVA win)?
I'd think the GTVA would keep the surviving UEF ships in sol until their end of service, while UEF shipyard would be retrofitted to produce TEI ship hulls and weapons.
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I still don't understand why the GTVA won't keep UEF tech in service, at least as second line of defense.
They have the logistic ships which are able to keep a battlegroup running, they could do the same with UEF ships, which can harras the shivs with long range fire and as soon as a subspace window opens, they fire their drives and are gone, all the UEF ships need is a logistic backup and perhaps better drives.
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I think you're confusing "UEF ships" with "UEF tech". Of course they'll keep a bunch of UEF tech and use it to enhance their capabilities.
UEF ships, on the other hand, are hideous resource hogs even when they do have secure logistics lines, damn expensive to make in the first place, and damn expensive to repair/maintain.
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Add to that that Tev crews aren't trained to operate UEF ships. They'll probably use them at first, but they'll be on top of the scrapyard waiting list once Sol shipyards start rolling out massive amounts of brand new and shiney Tev warships.
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Could definitely see Khatvangas being equipped on Tev warships.
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There is of course a chance that some UEF crews are taken into GTVA service as a show of goodwill and first step toward healing the rift. Those would be the natural selection for any UEF ship kept in service (of course mixed in with GTVA crews, of course each ship would need to have more GTVA than UEF personel just to be save).
That would certainly mitigate the issue of lacking experience, in part because the UEF people already know how to operate the ships and in part because the GTVA crew can learn directly from them, thus speeding up the learning process.
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That sounds expensive, annoying, and short-term.
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That sounds expensive, annoying, and short-term.
But worth it, for that short term. I think you're undervaluing the cultural/diplomatic/political benefits, here.
Plus, on the off chance of a Shivan incursion, its unique capabilities/loadout may prove to be particularly useful in some niche/role. They could even be relatively powerful ships that are expendable in ways that others aren't. Like the GTD Bastion in FS2, or the P-40's at Pearl Harbor (obsolete, but still very capable of defense/interception in sufficient numbers, while you phase them out for newer fighters).
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One way or the other, the GTVA needs to integrate the UEF citizens into their own population and way of thinking.
They can't just let them be as they are forever, or the Ubuntu ideology will sooner or later spread to GTVA terretory (of which the high council is scared big time). Neither can they just take all children away from their parents and indoctrinate them at a young age (apart from the moral side of things, there are also just too many families in Sol for that to be a realistic option).
The GTVA needs to show everyone that they did those horrible deed because it was the only way to preserve Humanity out in a hostile universe and any other way would have only led into the abyss.
I don't believe that this is the truth, or that the high council necessarily thinks so either, but it's certainly what they need to get across to the citizens, if they ever want to knit the two halfs of mankind back together.
Allowing a limited number of former UEF citizens to serve in the GTVA military and thus help preserving mankind, to me, seems a good way to do exactly that. Even a very small number of ex-UEF crew could turn out to be a very powerfull symbol (or propaganda tool, if you will) for the new unity, if handled right.
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I don't think that fence can ever be mended. Short of some kind of sci-fi brainwashing device, you'll never convince a former enemy "we were doing it for your own good" when you don't even believe that yourself. The admiral that was supposed to lead the strike and half of the force under him defected. What does that say to the UEF about the GTVA's justification? The best they can hope for now is the same as what happened with the Vasudans. A truce of necessity, that can slowly grow back to a strong alliance.
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The 14th went through hell and saw things that would have shaken anyone's faith. You didn't see anyone defecting when the Temeraire jumped to Mars in the alternate universe as planned.
I don't think integration is that much of a problem. Ubuntu is a philosophy of understanding and the common man will probably accept the GTVA's position much more readily than the Elders once the they blew up a freaking star! propaganda starts flowing.
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A truce of necessity, that can slowly grow back to a strong alliance.
Which still makes a show of goodwill (or rather many) as necessary as for a true mending.
If only half the former enemy faction wants you dead and gone, rather than all of them, it's far easier to make a lasting truce.
And I wasn't taking about the short term anyway. If the rift will ever be healed completely, it will take more than a century I guess (probably more like 3+). People have a long memory for injustice and with the increase in Human livespan in the BP setting, comes the increase in how long a grudge can survive.
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There is of course a chance that some UEF crews are taken into GTVA service as a show of goodwill and first step toward healing the rift. Those would be the natural selection for any UEF ship kept in service (of course mixed in with GTVA crews, of course each ship would need to have more GTVA than UEF personel just to be save).
That would certainly mitigate the issue of lacking experience, in part because the UEF people already know how to operate the ships and in part because the GTVA crew can learn directly from them, thus speeding up the learning process.
I think there's also economics to consider. I assume, in a GTVA victory, that the GTVA would take control of a lot of Sol's military...thereby putting a lot of Sol people out of work. Letting some former UEF military people serve in the GTVA military would partially alleviate unemployment problems. I would guess there would be those who would rather potentially fight the Shivans alongside their former enemy rather than have their family starve.
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The GTVA wants integration (and the destruction of Ubuntu, as much as can be completed) not outright occupation. I highly doubt they would disbar all active or reserve military personnel from serving, and doubt even more that the subject population is even large enough to be a blip. If we go with a ballpark five thousand figure for crewman per frigate, double it for destroyers, and half it for cruisers, That'd be approximately 400,000 crewmen. In the Sol system of the late 2300s, that's more than likely a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the system-wide population. Hell, that's a fraction of a percent of just the Earth now. I have a hard time believing that the active shipboard personnel of the UEF is much over one million at the largest, and that's even pushing it (merchant marine excluded). If every single one of those crewman were barred from further service, and assuming a workforce of approximately half the population (for today, which is also probably low), the increase in global unemployment would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.02%. In Sol of the future, it would be even less than that.
This all assumes that the GTVA wouldn't lay off shipyard workers, installation workers, and the like, because I have a hard time imagining a more stupid thing for them to do.
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This isn't a judgment of your analysis one way or another, but bear in mind that only a tiny fraction of the military is active duty, deployed, and actually shipboard.
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This isn't a judgment of your analysis one way or another, but bear in mind that only a tiny fraction of the military is active duty, deployed, and actually shipboard.
The ground troops would probably be pretty numerous for instance.
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The GTVA wants integration (and the destruction of Ubuntu, as much as can be completed) not outright occupation. I highly doubt they would disbar all active or reserve military personnel from serving, and doubt even more that the subject population is even large enough to be a blip. If we go with a ballpark five thousand figure for crewman per frigate, double it for destroyers, and half it for cruisers, That'd be approximately 400,000 crewmen. In the Sol system of the late 2300s, that's more than likely a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the system-wide population. Hell, that's a fraction of a percent of just the Earth now. I have a hard time believing that the active shipboard personnel of the UEF is much over one million at the largest, and that's even pushing it (merchant marine excluded). If every single one of those crewman were barred from further service, and assuming a workforce of approximately half the population (for today, which is also probably low), the increase in global unemployment would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.02%. In Sol of the future, it would be even less than that.
This all assumes that the GTVA wouldn't lay off shipyard workers, installation workers, and the like, because I have a hard time imagining a more stupid thing for them to do.
I estimated 1.1 million UEF crew, not including space stations and the like.
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So, the GTVA has these two big issues it's worried about:
1. Economy
2. Shivans / UEF ideology will make us weak
Well, this doesn't seem so hard!
1. UEF Kadmos get. The GTVA must have something they could give the UEF in exchange.
2. Declare a cease fire immediately. Seriously, did they miss the whole "great destroyers" memo?
Waiiiiiiiit... ****, they did miss the memo.
FS1 Alpha 1: got the memo (second half of FS1 Endgame cutscene), but he's in Sol. Possibly became one of the first Fedayeen.
Bosch: didn't get the memo (at least not until the Shivans boarded the Iceni), and any insight he got at that point wouldn't have made it back to the GTVA.
Bei Jr. and Sr.: got the memo (Universal Truth), but defected to the UEF.
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Shouldnt Bei Jr's report have been in the Orestes' data banks?
Also I always kind of just assumed Alpha 1 was spouting some theories.
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In BP the FS1 Alpha1 was nagari sensetive, so it wasn't not just some wild theory...
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Shouldnt Bei Jr's report have been in the Orestes' data banks?
I was referring specifically to the dialog between "Shiva" and "Vishnu"
Also, what crizza said.
That said, I don't entirely care for BP [re]interpreting the Ancients cutscenes as "audiovisual hallucinations" ... I preferred to think those were snippets from the Ancients' records, and that the fact that they were shown before the Ancients reveal was just for storytelling / so that they could have some cinematics between missions.
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Part of the fun of the FreeSpace canon is the room for multiple interpretations. BP took them one way, no reason they couldn't go another in another story.
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Seriously, did they miss the whole "great destroyers" memo?
There is a difference between not getting the momo and not believing it.
I think there is sufficient doubt about the source of the memo (both in terms of truthfullness and motive) to make the message itself dubious enough to not just swollow it as fact without further prove.
The behaviour of the Shivans at the end of the second incursion (blowing up Capella instead of pushing on to eraticate the GTVA) hints at far more going on than just "destroying the destroyers".
And in my opinion it's also not exactly serving the balance between the two mirror universes to allow the Sanctuary to acompany the 14th battlegroup back to their own universe.
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The ground troops would probably be pretty numerous for instance.
Doing what? The UEF doesn't have much need for an army. I don't doubt they have one, but suggesting it's larger than their navy when it doesn't have a clearly defined role or need for it like the navy does seems shakey.
The support structure for the UEF's space forces almost certainly outnumbers ship crew by several times, though.
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Even if the UEF space forces encompassed nearly 20 million shipboard and support personnel, laying every single one of them off (which would be idiotic on literally a system wide level) would still only be a fraction of a percent of the system population. Hell, that's barely more than a quarter of a percent of today's population.
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And keeping all the former UEF military people unemployed and depressed would be bad for another reason: they'd be the ones who would most likely to be capable of leading some sort of insurrection in Sol.
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On the other hand, if they are out of the fleet, their options for sabotage are a lot more limited than on board of the military ships and stations. Allthough one could argue that the GTVA might rather have them, where they can keep an eye on them.
Split them apart into small groups, spread around the fleet under discreet surveillance, rather than allowing them to go to ground and form large resistance cells, hidden well in their own hometerretory.
A delicate balancing act without an obvious right or wrong way awaits the GTVA one way or the other, if they manage to take controll of Sol.
... I just had a rather outlandish though. Very unlikely but mabe worth a discussion.
What about letting the Vasudans police the Sol system after the war, to avoid anti GTA activism? You know... keeping the factions that killed each other seperated for the time being and letting the neutral faction act as a buffer.
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Trust the zods?
BLASPHEMY!
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Or they could just wipe out the entire UEF space based military even if they try to surrender. Nobody would know better if the whole military is dead. There, problem solved.
Its not like there is any practical value in leaving the UEF military alive. They are effectively angry people with military training.
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there's no practical value in NOT committing mass murder??? :wtf: :nono:
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They're the people in the UEF most accustomed to taking orders and most practiced in policing exoplanetary traffic. Those are both useful attributes.
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Or they could just wipe out the entire UEF space based military even if they try to surrender. Nobody would know better if the whole military is dead. There, problem solved.
If you really want to make the whole Solar System ungovernable when the inevitable leak occurs in two weeks.
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Uh, everybody with a single relative in the military would know. It would leak faster than any other secret in history.
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I mean, just as a logistical effort, killing that many people is hard. It takes a lot of people. One of 'em's going to talk. Somebody's going to get away. There will be problems real fast.
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... I just had a rather outlandish though. Very unlikely but mabe worth a discussion.
What about letting the Vasudans police the Sol system after the war, to avoid anti GTA activism? You know... keeping the factions that killed each other seperated for the time being and letting the neutral faction act as a buffer.
Sounds like a good idea. If I was in the GTVA, I would not be opposed to bringing in some Vasudans to help police Sol. However, as of right now I'd say the Vasudans are slightly less than neutral.
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Seriously, did they miss the whole "great destroyers" memo?
There is a difference between not getting the momo and not believing it.
I think there is sufficient doubt about the source of the memo (both in terms of truthfullness and motive) to make the message itself dubious enough to not just swollow it as fact without further prove.
Yeah yeah, unreliable narrator. Did you not read the rest of my post?
There are 3 people who it's established "got the memo": FS1 Alpha, Bei Jr., and Bei Sr., and of those three people (unless I'm mis-remembering the last two missions of AoA), none of them relayed it to the GTVA.
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Uh, everybody with a single relative in the military would know. It would leak faster than any other secret in history.
Say they're working on a project. A secret one, perhaps.
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Every single relative would telepathically know that their relatives died while trying to surrender instead of dying fighting.
I'll admit it would look weird if not even one ship survived and it was a kinda dumb idea, but people would have to guess as opposed to somehow KNOWING.
They're the people in the UEF most accustomed to taking orders and most practiced in policing exoplanetary traffic. Those are both useful attributes.
Why would they be given equipment to police the system? Its not like they would just suddenly happily work for the GTVA.
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... I just had a rather outlandish though. Very unlikely but mabe worth a discussion.
What about letting the Vasudans police the Sol system after the war, to avoid anti GTA activism? You know... keeping the factions that killed each other seperated for the time being and letting the neutral faction act as a buffer.
Sounds like a good idea. If I was in the GTVA, I would not be opposed to bringing in some Vasudans to help police Sol. However, as of right now I'd say the Vasudans are slightly less than neutral.
Sure they are no long completely neutral, but as of yet, they didn't kill a single UEF citizen (military or civilian). In my opinion the death of civilians (Luna bombing, Earth blitz, destruction of any freighter and transport that tried to flee rather than surrender) are going to be far more of a problem than the invasion and fight of military against military, when it comes to maintaining the peace.
I imagine it's hard to trust someone to police the system when it's possible that the person pulled the trigger that launched a nuclear weapon at one or your cities.
I highly doubt that Steele, who won them the war, will be punished (unless the truth about his gamble with the Vasudans comes out), but I can't help to wonder what fate the GTVA has in store for Severanti...
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Is it possible Severanti might have an "accident"?
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I highly doubt that Steele, who won them the war, will be punished (unless the truth about his gamble with the Vasudans comes out), but I can't help to wonder what fate the GTVA has in store for Severanti...
Admiral Cyrus Severanti, Commanding Officer of the GTVA 13th Battlegroup, was the first Theater Commander in Sol. Originally deployed to Sol as backup for Admiral Bei's 14th BG, Admiral Severanti found himself in a difficult situation. With the most powerful ships in the fleet unavailable, and with considerable confusion on all levels of his command structure, he nonetheless pursued the mandate given to him by the GTVA Security Council with skill and determination.
Unfortunately, his slow, methodical, by-the-book approach was countered at every turn by Admiral Calder and the Jovian Rim Fleet, who used Admiral Calders' understanding of the GTVA psyche and the system-wide subspace surveillance net to always stay ahead of the Alliance fleet. After 18 months of uphill battles, Severanti was finally in a position to mount a major assault against 3rd Fleet positions, only to have his thunder stolen by the Security Council's decision to deploy the 15th Battlegroup under Admiral Steele in support of the 13th.
Severanti's subsequent actions, taken rashly in an effort to reassert his authority in Sol, lead straight to his flagship being ambushed by a UEF Frigate division, and he had to withdraw to Delta Serpentis to effect the necessary repairs, where he was reassigned to the GTVA Space War College to head the Advanced Tactics Course.
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Give the UEF new ships to police the system, install a kill switch for reactor shutdown and in case they decide to fight again, let them die in a ship without lifesupport...
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Give the UEF new ships to police the system, install a kill switch for reactor shutdown and in case they decide to fight again, let them die in a ship without lifesupport...
Assumes terminal stupidity among UEF forces, and a total takeover of all Sol-based ship manufacturing capability.
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and a total takeover of all Sol-based ship manufacturing capability.
They would be fools not to.
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Why would they be given equipment to police the system? Its not like they would just suddenly happily work for the GTVA.
Actually, if you read your history, many of them probably would.
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I highly doubt that Steele, who won them the war, will be punished (unless the truth about his gamble with the Vasudans comes out), but I can't help to wonder what fate the GTVA has in store for Severanti...
Admiral Cyrus Severanti, Commanding Officer of the GTVA 13th Battlegroup, was the first Theater Commander in Sol. Originally deployed to Sol as backup for Admiral Bei's 14th BG, Admiral Severanti found himself in a difficult situation. With the most powerful ships in the fleet unavailable, and with considerable confusion on all levels of his command structure, he nonetheless pursued the mandate given to him by the GTVA Security Council with skill and determination.
Unfortunately, his slow, methodical, by-the-book approach was countered at every turn by Admiral Calder and the Jovian Rim Fleet, who used Admiral Calders' understanding of the GTVA psyche and the system-wide subspace surveillance net to always stay ahead of the Alliance fleet. After 18 months of uphill battles, Severanti was finally in a position to mount a major assault against 3rd Fleet positions, only to have his thunder stolen by the Security Council's decision to deploy the 15th Battlegroup under Admiral Steele in support of the 13th.
Severanti's subsequent actions, taken rashly in an effort to reassert his authority in Sol, lead straight to his flagship being ambushed by a UEF Frigate division, and he had to withdraw to Delta Serpentis to effect the necessary repairs, where he was reassigned to the GTVA Space War College to head the Advanced Tactics Course.
Yes I know that and he'll remain there for the rest of the war. But what happens after the war? Might the GTVA be willing to "sacrifice" him in the shape of a war crime tribunal as a first step toward reconciliation?
With the UEF and Ubuntu philosophy he won't face the death sentence, but probably would spend a decade or several in a prison, if convicted (or spend a few years there and then be quietly transfered over to GTVA space, once the incident faded enough from peoples minds to risk it).
It would be a bit low for the GTVA High Command, but these days I wouldn't put it beyond them.
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They can't afford to sacrifice Steele just for satisfying the UEF population. Steele is an excellent admiral and a genius stratege. They need him at the head of the Atreus for the next Shivan Incursion.
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They can't afford to sacrifice Steele just for satisfying the UEF population. Steele is an excellent admiral and a genius stratege. They need him at the head of the Atreus for the next Shivan Incursion.
Uh. The quote is about Sevranti. And I doubt they'd sacrifice him either, since even if he had full operational control. Somebody could have reined him in if he was too out of line.
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Yes I know that and he'll remain there for the rest of the war. But what happens after the war? Might the GTVA be willing to "sacrifice" him in the shape of a war crime tribunal as a first step toward reconciliation?
With the UEF and Ubuntu philosophy he won't face the death sentence, but probably would spend a decade or several in a prison, if convicted (or spend a few years there and then be quietly transfered over to GTVA space, once the incident faded enough from peoples minds to risk it).
No, I don't think so. At this point, the only admiral the UEF might harbor resentments against is Steele. It's more probable that Severanti will be either encouraged to leave service or get a cushy retirement post. Lest we forget, despite his blunder in Sol, Severanti is still a highly competent commander, and the GTVA is not in the habit of throwing valuable assets away without good cause.
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Severanti is the man that did all the job for Steele. The Atreus' battlegroup would have sustained much heavier losses taking Jovian Space if Severanti hadn't spent his 18 months nuking the UEF's subspace communication and surveillance network, as well as eliminating the militias and harassing 3rd fleet's supply lines, all of this with ridiculously low losses for the Tevs.
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They can't afford to sacrifice Steele just for satisfying the UEF population. Steele is an excellent admiral and a genius stratege. They need him at the head of the Atreus for the next Shivan Incursion.
I thought that Steele was a poor strategist against the Shivans, as per the stuff hidden on the Narayana.
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He is still an excellent commander and can do stuff with his Atreus no other admiral would even think about attempting. The Tevs need him.
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Is it possible Severanti might have an "accident"?
Don't let the UEF propaganda go to your head.. the Tevs aren't a space age banana republic. They aren't monsters in the habit of 'accidenting' away their Admirals.
Also I'm in agreement that the UEF wouldn't really care either way if Severanti is punished. Notice how in the campaign, Steele is the UEF's boogeyman. Not the Tevs as a whole, not the Atreus, or the Security Council. Steele. Steele is the vessel and personification of every negative sentiment that a defeated UEF might carry. And the Security Council won't throw him to the dogs for the reasons people have already listed.
Which puts the GTVA back to square one. Any rift will take a long time to heal, there are no quick fixes I don't think.
OR
The Shivans will arrive and the UEF and the GTVA will band together much as the PVN and GTA did.
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Why would they be given equipment to police the system? Its not like they would just suddenly happily work for the GTVA.
Actually, if you read your history, many of them probably would.
If not happily, then at least content to receive a paycheck.
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Why would they be given equipment to police the system? Its not like they would just suddenly happily work for the GTVA.
Actually, if you read your history, many of them probably would.
If not happily, then at least content to receive a paycheck.
Wow weird. Well I'll buy the paycheck thing.
What about the history thing though? Iv read lots of history but haven't heard much about the enemy armed forces actually going to the other side.
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They can't afford to sacrifice Steele just for satisfying the UEF population. Steele is an excellent admiral and a genius stratege. They need him at the head of the Atreus for the next Shivan Incursion.
I thought that Steele was a poor strategist against the Shivans, as per the stuff hidden on the Narayana.
Sure his anti-UEF tactics wouldn't work against the Shivans, but it's a pretty save bet that Steele knows that too and thus wouldn't use them against the Shivans.
I'd even argue that Steele is more likely to be effective against the Shivans than other GTVA Admirals. All GTVA personel is specifically trained to combat Shivans. Steele was able to use his mind to adapt to fighting the UEF, even though that is extremely different from fighting the foe he was trained against. That shows adaptability. And with the Shivan's tendency to conjure up something new out of the blue, an adaptable Admiral is far better suited to combat them than a by-the-book kind of soldier.
As much as I dislike him (for reasons discussed in other places ad neuseum), I do (more or less grudginly) acknowledge his skill and effectiveness.
And I wouldn't put too much stock on something spraypainted on the inside of a UEF ship :P
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Why would they be given equipment to police the system? Its not like they would just suddenly happily work for the GTVA.
Actually, if you read your history, many of them probably would.
If not happily, then at least content to receive a paycheck.
Wow weird. Well I'll buy the paycheck thing.
What about the history thing though? Iv read lots of history but haven't heard much about the enemy armed forces actually going to the other side.
West Germany joined NATO not that long after the end of WW2.
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Why would they be given equipment to police the system? Its not like they would just suddenly happily work for the GTVA.
Actually, if you read your history, many of them probably would.
Just out of curiosity, which incidents in history were you referring to?
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Why would they be given equipment to police the system? Its not like they would just suddenly happily work for the GTVA.
Actually, if you read your history, many of them probably would.
If not happily, then at least content to receive a paycheck.
Wow weird. Well I'll buy the paycheck thing.
What about the history thing though? Iv read lots of history but haven't heard much about the enemy armed forces actually going to the other side.
West Germany joined NATO not that long after the end of WW2.
Why would they be given equipment to police the system? Its not like they would just suddenly happily work for the GTVA.
Actually, if you read your history, many of them probably would.
Just out of curiosity, which incidents in history were you referring to?
I`m having trouble reconciling these two posts against eachother CT27?
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I thought of one example, just wondering if he had any others?
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JSDF/Imperial Japan. Russian and Eastern European troops who manned the Atlantic Wall for the Germans. (Hell, at Utah Beach the US Army captured a pair of Koreans who must have been captured by the Japanese, conscripted, captured by the Russians, conscripted, then captured by the Germans and conscripted. The US at least sent them home, though they probably got conscripted by somebody again during the Korean War.)
Probably could dig up a lot of people around the Middle Ages in Europe.
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I remembered also the example of the US and Japan. Extremely bitter and hated enemies during WW2 but now close allies/friends today (and we still have bases there today).
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With the two nukes that makes for a really good example. One would think wiping out two towns with such terrible weapons would leave the people hate the USA for the next millenium.
On the other hand, the situation between the USA and Japan is different from the GTVA-UEF situation in two key points:
- America didn't take over the Japanese terretory.
- America didn't try to eradicate the japanese way of live and replace it with their own (well... not actively or at gunpoint anyway).
The GTVA tries to destroy the UEFs way of live and replace it with their own and they want to annex Sol. Those two are even the official reasons for why the GTVA went to war in the first place.
Of course the GTVA says that Ubuntu is making Humankind too weak to defend against the Shivans and thus we have to protect them from themselfs, rather than just saying "we want to destroy Ubuntu", but the bottomline is pretty much the same.
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On the other hand, the situation between the USA and Japan is different from the GTVA-UEF situation in two key points:
- America didn't take over the Japanese terretory.
- America didn't try to eradicate the japanese way of live and replace it with their own (well... not actively or at gunpoint anyway).
Some pretty nasty stuff happened during the occupation. Japan became an ally of the United States because it was economically and defensively critical to do so, not because there wasn't significant public resentment towards the United States.
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i'm not sure how much this plays into it, but there's also the point that japan was the initial aggressor. THEY were the ones trying to do the territory grab, and got beat back from it. the opposite of the GTVA-UEF situation.
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Another example might be the US and UK. Hostile with each other for quite a while, but close friends today.
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Come to think of it, the Fadayyen not might be working on a superweapon at all. Too obvious of a plot point, and doesn't fit such a shadowy organization. (GTI Hades aside, but the GTI had a huge head start on the construction of their superweapon) In fact, some of the dialogue from the mission 'The Plunder' suggests that the UEF aren't
stupid enough willing to put all their eggs into one basket like that.
All those resources are probably going towards something more subtle. Only thing I can think of that would require warships to continuously disappear and the resources of an entire logistics ship would be some sort of systemwide construction project somehow related to the Vishnans and/or Shivans. Such an undertaking would certainly require warships to fend off the inevitable raids, and the resources of a logistics ship.
This is going to tie in horribly with the Solis Lacus camps, isn't it?
It might be worth a playthrough with the mindset that things might be happening behind the scenes, and that the main character is an unreliable narrator. It's quite possible that Steele isn't the only grand chessmaster around.
Oh, and I am starting to think that the Fadayyen might be the Sol portion of what was once the GTI.
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They are building a subspace portal to call in the Shivans... because they figure if they can't have the Sol system, no one can.
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Fedayeen aren't GTI, they're a separate organization set up by the Ubuntu party. The GTA in Sol collapsed after the destruction of the node.
I wouldn't be surprised if they were doing some sort of creepy Nagari experiments on POWs, but they'd probably be assigned to secret camps, not one that standard Fleet pilots would bring up in conversation like Solis Lacus... 'sides which, Solis Lacus is on Mars.
I doubt the assets consumed by the Secret Project are being used to fend off Shivans in Sol. I do suspect that those assets are being used to fend off the GTVA in a hidden, perhaps darker side of the war we've yet to see.
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My guess on the secret project: I think the Fedayeen are working on a way to remove ship-invulnerable, ship-guardian, ship-guardian-threshold, and ship-subsys-guardian-threshold from the game engine. If they don't do that, Byrne could be building the Icanus and the UEF still wouldn't have a chance.
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Maybe they are attempting to replicate the Sathanas' subspace field and supernova the sun.
(While we're on crazy theories)
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Or maybe they are mashing up all the ships into a giant mega-ship...Guess we'll never know (until R2 comes out, that is)... :cool:
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Or they are building a big cannon that shoots little bullets filled with culture, like the Advent in Sins of a Solar Empire have. And then they shoot the Ubuntu ideology at the unsuspecting GTVA terretories.
The GTVA still wins in Sol, but when they come back home, instead of a victory parade they only find their whole terretory converted to Ubuntu! :p
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Or they are building a big cannon that shoots little bullets filled with culture, like the Advent in Sins of a Solar Empire have. And then they shoot the Ubuntu ideology at the unsuspecting GTVA terretories.
The GTVA still wins in Sol, but when they come back home, instead of a victory parade they only find their whole terretory converted to Ubuntu! :p
So, then...Sol would turn into an expansionistic militarist regime and then the rest of the GTVA would become more peaceful? What you're saying is BP is then a prequel to Inferno? :D
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Or they are building a big cannon that shoots little bullets filled with culture, like the Advent in Sins of a Solar Empire have. And then they shoot the Ubuntu ideology at the unsuspecting GTVA terretories.
The GTVA still wins in Sol, but when they come back home, instead of a victory parade they only find their whole terretory converted to Ubuntu! :p
So, then...Sol would turn into an expansionistic militarist regime and then the rest of the GTVA would become more peaceful? What you're saying is BP is then a prequel to Inferno? :D
It did start out as an Inferno fanfic... :drevil:
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Kinda
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/me is now known as INFR1: Anniversary
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Fedayeen aren't GTI, they're a separate organization set up by the Ubuntu party. The GTA in Sol collapsed after the destruction of the node.
How do we know that the Fedayeen were set up by the Ubuntu party, per se? I doubt that the GTI's black ops network would just vanish just because their government goes under. Rather then expending a great deal of resources to set up a new intelligence agency, Ubuntu might of just decided to make use of an existing spy network.
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The Fedayeen became A Thing after meetings between Ubuntu Party leaders, FS1 Alpha 1, and the Vasudan survivors of the attack on the Lucifer. That said, many Ubuntu party founders were graduates of the GTI's Human Futures Project think tank.
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It's pretty likely that GTI agents ended up in the Fedayeen just because they had the required skillset and convictions, just like many former GTA officiers ended up in the UEF navy.
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Maybe the Secret Project is some sort of energy projection device that will use the Sol node as a starting point, then project outwards from one node to another- causing the universe to blow up in one of three colours chosen by the protagonist. :p
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OK, I'm calling it, secret project = full on double ETAK rainbow, all the way across the dimension, and in BP3 you figure out what it means. The greedy GTVA tries to take over the (Sol) theater, but they can't stop the Rainbow Connection and it comes through the roof, with casualties in the billions.
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Another analogy I thought of since we've been talking about historical examples/analogies somewhat recently:
The Native Americans were conquered and treated fairly harshly by the US over the years. However, even then there were Native Americans who fought bravely for the US in WW1 and WW2.
I'm not saying it's a perfect analogy or that in a GTVA-victory scenario that relations will be rosy. But I'd be willing to guess that some former UEF people would be willing to serve in the GTVA military and not always be plotting rebellion.
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I don't get this rainbow stuff, thinking maybe it's a reference to katamari? (which I haven't played and know virtually nothing about) Or what?
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I don't get this rainbow stuff, thinking maybe it's a reference to katamari? (which I haven't played and know virtually nothing about) Or what?
No it's muppets
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I don't get this rainbow stuff, thinking maybe it's a reference to katamari? (which I haven't played and know virtually nothing about) Or what?
You have not heard Kermit the Frog sing enough.
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Has there been any indication that Steele/GTVI knows anything about Byrne working on a 'secret project'?
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There are a few hints that there are more reasons for the GTVA going to war than just the ones we've been given. I expect it has something to do with the project.
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Do we know if the Secret Project was already in progress before the war started, or if it was only started because of the war?
If it's the latter, that certainly rules it out as a reason for the war.
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There are a few hints that there are more reasons for the GTVA going to war than just the ones we've been given. I expect it has something to do with the project.
The GTVI knows always more than they let on. Remember that they know about the Fedayeen while nearly the entirety of the UEF population thinks it's just conspiracy bull****.
I'm pretty sure they know about the existence of the Project. Whether they know what this project is actually about is anyone's guess though.
Do we know if the Secret Project was already in progress before the war started, or if it was only started because of the war?
If it's the latter, that certainly rules it out as a reason for the war.
Good question. I don't remember anything stated about that point. I'll need to re-dig BP2's briefings and fiction.
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The GTVI knows always more than they let on. Remember that they know about the Fedayeen while nearly the entirety of the UEF population thinks it's just conspiracy bull****.
Considering that the Feyadeen would be the direct opponents of GTVI's efforts to infiltrate the UEF, that's...not as surprising as it sounds. It'd be sort of like the CIA not knowing about the Second Chief Directorate of the KGB, and indicative of a serious failure that just isn't likely to happen given BP's generally treating all sides as capable and not stupid.
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Hypothetical:
If you were Steele and had a chance to take out Calder and his destroyer or Netreba and his destroyer, which would you choose?
(I left Byrne out of this hypothetical question because he's not as much of a front line admiral as the other two it seems).
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Hypothetical:
If you were Steele and had a chance to take out Calder and his destroyer or Netreba and his destroyer, which would you choose?
(I left Byrne out of this hypothetical question because he's not as much of a front line admiral as the other two it seems).
Probably Netreba. From bp fiction, Calder doesn't have much of a fleet left after Artemis, so netreba probably has more of an actual role, plus, he's always seemed more of a administrative, behind the scenes type guy that is actually indispensable. Though Steele does rely on psychological effect a lot, so calder might be a better choice for him.
Which of the destroyers got the new mass drivers?
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Probably Netreba. Calder would go down fighting every step of the way. Netreba might decide his crew is more valuable than spite and surrender when he realises he's beaten. In addition, 2FM has more ships remaining than 3JRF does, so its decapitation has a bigger effect. Might also provoke Calder into making a mistake, though that seems unlikely.
EDIT: BlasterNT: the Toutatis is the one that gets upgunned. Probably during a stay in dock after DE.
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Calder. The man is a good admiral, significantly more experienced than either of his counterparts, and has a vested interest in making Steele personally hurt. Remove a thorn before it becomes more of an issue.
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3rd is significantly short of ships, most of its combat power has already been expended. It does not appear an attractive target.
On the other hand, if you kill 2nd's entire command structure by knocking out the destroyer complete with Admiral and staff, there is a very real danger that Calder (as he commands a ship equipped to do so and presumably has the staff as well) will be given the duties for both Mars' fleet and what's left of his own fleet.
Before you conduct a decapitation strike, always make sure that you will not inadvertently give command to a better person.
EDIT: I think in the end my answer would be neither. I would probably elect to damage both ships or destroy significant portions of their escorts, and escape cleanly. At this point it's unlikely the UEF will be able to repair a significantly damaged Solaris, and with the command structure of the Rim fleet being essentially dead weight and the unpredictable results of decapping Mars' fleet, neither presents a a valuable enough target to justify their individual destruction when I can instead sow chaos by attacking two of the three UEF command ships and further cripple UEF logistics with a backlog of repair and resupply needs.
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Before you conduct a decapitation strike, always make sure that you will not inadvertently give command to a better person.
Sounds like the "mistake" the UEF made in Post Meridian...
At this point it's unlikely the UEF will be able to repair a significantly damaged Solaris
The full retrofit conducted on the Toutatis after the damage it took during the events of DE proves otherwise. The UEF may be on the brink of logistical collapse, they still have enough to prioritize their major assets. They just can't afford to do the same for the dozens of frigates and cruisers around.
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Before you conduct a decapitation strike, always make sure that you will not inadvertently give command to a better person.
Sounds like the "mistake" the UEF made in Post Meridian...
Not quite.
The reason for the Meridian attack was to drive it's task force away, so they can't continue to bombard the Moon. Retaliation would also have been part of it.
Besides I doubt the GTVA would have left him in charge even if he didn't order that attack. Remember that he was in charge of an 18 month stalemate and then Steele charged in, took Jupiter and wiped out most of the third fleet.
By the point of post meridian, Severanti already lost his post as overall commander of the Sol theatre, and was just desperately trying to show that he could have done better, if he had had the same freedoms as Steele.
But due to a lack of time for planning, lack of skill or lack of available assets (or a combination of those) that attempt backfired and instead of saving his career, got him relegated to a deskjob.
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Definitely Calder. Netreba is probably a more valuable asset to the UEF, but as far as anyone on the GTVA knows, the war is all but won. When the Council of Elders sends out the order to surrender, I can see Calder doing something that will get a lot of people killed on both sides.
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The full retrofit conducted on the Toutatis after the damage it took during the events of DE proves otherwise. The UEF may be on the brink of logistical collapse, they still have enough to prioritize their major assets. They just can't afford to do the same for the dozens of frigates and cruisers around.
It proves nothing. It suggests otherwise.
It also suggests they don't know how to prioritize at all; a full refit for a destroyer consumes more resources than major repairs for about a dozen frigates. That's more reason to damage the ship if they do this kind of thing.
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Calder.
Netreba has a kind of McClellan feel to him. He would be a great peace time admiral but is a little too cautious (or lacking in experience/chutzpa) to be anything more than adequate in wartime. Keeping him in command can only be a good thing.
Additionally, if Calder is taken out, along with his Solaris, the rest of 3rd fleet would no longer be as free to conduct strike operations against GTVA targets, relegating them to defensive operations and removing a major thorn from the side of the GTVA.
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I got the impression that Netreba is a good admiral who doesn't get a lot of credit to his name because he chooses to support both First and Third Fleet rather than just doing his own thing like the other admirals. Without him the rift between Calder and Byrne would probably be too great to mount an effective defense and the GTVA would be able to divide and conquer.
Calder has definitely got more death flags though.
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I got the impression that Netreba is a good admiral who doesn't get a lot of credit to his name because he chooses to support both First and Third Fleet rather than just doing his own thing like the other admirals. Without him the rift between Calder and Byrne would probably be too great to mount an effective defense and the GTVA would be able to divide and conquer.
Calder has definitely got more death flags though.
There is that. The spirit of Ubuntu is strong with Netreba.
Calder is the warhawk who is always attacking the mighty GTVA. I suppose the idea is that if he is gone the Feds will just give up or something. Although he is the one who keeps sending frigates out to die so maybe he is a double agent ;7
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I got the impression that Netreba is a good admiral who doesn't get a lot of credit to his name because he chooses to support both First and Third Fleet rather than just doing his own thing like the other admirals. Without him the rift between Calder and Byrne would probably be too great to mount an effective defense and the GTVA would be able to divide and conquer.
Calder has definitely got more death flags though.
There is that. The spirit of Ubuntu is strong with Netreba.
Calder is the warhawk who is always attacking the mighty GTVA. I suppose the idea is that if he is gone the Feds will just give up or something. Although he is the one who keeps sending frigates out to die so maybe he is a double agent ;7
Maybe there was something to the GTVA's theory that old GTA citizens would yearn for their old government :P
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If the GTVA wins and gets access to UEF tech, is it possible they could learn to use beam jamming against Shivans?
I imagine the Shivans would eventually find ways around it as the GTVA did, but even a temporary use could be greatly helpful I'd imagine.
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Sathanas Control: Heh heh we are guna fry those humans good, fire away gunnery!
Sathanas Control: Gunnery?
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they should be able to do it without the UEF's help or tech base. the UEF did it relatively quickly, without even having beam tech themselves. they had access to lucifer data and the couple of ships that defected, that's it. plus, the fact that the GTVA learned to override beam jamming suggests they already figured out how it works and should be able to reproduce it.
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Keep in mind the Jovian research of the electromagnetic phenomena betwen Jupiter and Io. They didn't figure it out "just" because of the Lucifer or the defecting ships from the 14th Battlegroup.
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Judging by some of the comments in the 'someone needs to die' thread, it would appear that Steele's strategy for dealing with Solarises (or is the plural Solari?) shouldn't be to attack them head on but rather something like isolating them?
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It would be tough. Solarises carry a good amount of strikecraft so he'd need to strip his target's screen away first. Then he'd need to trap it somewhere and have a Charybdis there to jam its torpedo locks while remaining out of Gattler range, and probably have an Aeolus or Hyperion guarding the Charybdis to deter any remaining strikecraft. Doable, but at least as tough as getting the Wargods trapped in a gravity well so the Imperieuse could jump in.
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Expensive or not, as a defence platform in systems with more or less secured supply lines, a Solaris destroyer is defenitely worth its money. I made a little test mission a while ago in which a Solaris and a Demon are engaged, and the Solaris just KICKS ASS! :pimp:
The GTVA managed to supply the Colossus, why not a hand full of those sweeties? Equipped with more powerful torpedoes (Supernova) it could be even more deadly.
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Unless they did some changes in the last update, that currently doesn't work.
For some reason the GTVAs "direct fire" torpedoes doesn't seem to be able to cope with being fired out the sides and curving towards the target.
I also tried putting Apocalypse torps into fusion mortar slots, which resulted in them never firing.
Anyway, it isn't really necessary to put GTVA torps on the Solaris. Just filling them with the Narayanas variant of the Apo would be enough to up the destructive power (and range) of a Solaris by quite a nice margin.
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So what should Steele's next move be?
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Put his feet up, smoke a cigar and have a big glass of Capellan scotch? At this point Second and Third Fleets are trashed and the UEF Navy is facing logistical collapse in a matter of months. They need a damn miracle to have a chance against Steele's forces at this point.
Of course, the UEF lost this war the moment the Elders declared they'd be defensive and not offensive. As far as I know Third Fleet were the only ones doing any significant combat actions in the 18 months prior to Artemis Station so the GTVA was essentially able to defeat them in detail since they were unengaged by any other significant UEF forces.
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Leaning back and doing nothing would be the worst thing Steele can do.
The UEF faces logistical collapse in a few month, if the GTVA keeps the preassure up, like they did during WiH. Not keeping the preassure up will at least lengthen the war unnecessarily and in the worst case allow the UEF to recover sufficiently to put up an effective defense, maybe even offense.
And that's not even considering that the UEF was playing for time during the whole war, because they put so much faith into their secret project.
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Just because I said Steele should have a scotch and cigar as his next move after Neptune doesn't mean he should stop fighting the war. :P I thought it was implied that after enjoying himself he'd go back to fighting the war and making UEF task groups (is that the right word?) cry "Uncle!".
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The impending logistical collapse is a very useful tool for keeping Steele's political masters sweet because that is a we will win a couple of weeks after this point. Militarily keeping the pressure up is the better bet, firstly to hasten the logistical collapse, secondly it blunts any desperate counter attacks, thirdly increases the likelihood of the UEF making a mistake which can be exploited for a checkmate in 1 scenario.
TBH I wonder if leaving the Solaris destroyers intact might be a good idea if possible, while weaponry wise they are of questionable use, with a few weeks orientation a GTVA loyal crew can probably take over their operation and be used for security operations in Sol allowing the GTVA to concentrate on rebuilding and repairing the GTVA forces in system and replacing the Solaris destroyers when the opportunity arises.
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If the war keeps going this way the chances of any of the Solaris destroyers surviving the war without massive damage from capital-grade plasma beams is doubtful. They're powerful, but if Steele can lure off the Eris's fighter cover there's a chance Serkr will get an opportunity to try and paint a Solaris on their hulls.
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Since Serkr Team is doing relatively well so far, maybe send in more Chimeras/Bellerophons to make a second Serkr Team?
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I doubt that will happen. The Pilum, Hydra, and Marcus Glaive all have some upgrades to point defense if I recall correctly which takes time in a shipyard, and more than one of a special, select group running around is bad for storytelling. There could be more hunter-killer teams deployed to Sol, but there will be only one Serkr Team, especially since Serkr has been utilized as a persistent obstacle for the protagonists to overcome.
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The Serkr corvettes have experimental armor and really good crews. And sprint drives aren't standard equipment. Weapons-wise, though, the only difference is that the Chimeras replace 4 TT2s (forward and bottom middles, to be specific) with Heavy Flak cannons.
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Well, experimental armor, elite crews, and upgrades to defenses are all good reasons why there won't be more Serkrs in-system. Then again, Steele really only needs one since they've proven themselves to be very good at what they do. Their usefulness as a morale weapon is also not to be underestimated since knowing an elite team of hunter-killers is out there waiting to pounce on vulnerable frigates is sure to have the blood of any UEF captain assigned to a solo mission running cold.
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Maybe if the shut up and let Steele handle this, they wouldn't be in such deep **** :lol:
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Keep in mind the Jovian research of the electromagnetic phenomena betwen Jupiter and Io. They didn't figure it out "just" because of the Lucifer or the defecting ships from the 14th Battlegroup.
This. The Oculus is so effective at beam jamming because its normal capabilities is geared toward dealing with extremely high levels of magnetism; as a military application, it's more than just software, it's a unique level of hardware AND the expertise and scientific understanding that comes along with the package.
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To the thread's main topic:
1) Pick off as many ships as possible (though they should probably Sanctus-class at least); use highly disproportionate force to do it, and be unpredictable.
Regularly have Pegasus and Aurora fighters do recon and 'vectoring' for potential shock jumps. Even if it's right outside places like a Kumari.
Lure out a frigate or Sanctus with large numbers of minor, but significant, strikes; always make it seem as if it's a small engagement and that a relatively small force commitment can save the situation. And then, on a good number of these occasions, actually let them succeed. So when you get the right opportunity and a Karuna or a few Sanctus cruisers comes in, you can feasibly vector in a shock-jump with Serkr Team (or just the Atreus herself; her capability and reputation for impossibly rapid subspace jumps would make even Calder hesitant to bring in the cavalry right away, giving the Atreus the time to escape without too much trouble).
Every time there's a minor engagement, send in a ludicrously disproportionate force to take out the UEF assets present. Given Byrne's passivity, the general friction between Byrne, Netreba, and Calder, Calder's famous aggression and the autonomy between 1st and 2nd/3rd Fleets, they'll be much less responsive to offensively committing a massive force deployment, especially after the events of Delenda Est. For ships with sprint drives, the window of opportunity to counterstrike would be quite limited to begin with.
2) In major engagements, have a wing or two of Ares fighters be dedicated to warhead intercept and point defense against UEF gunships, bombers, and (depending on the circumstances) Kents. With Maxims in the two-gun slot and Balors or Kaysers in the four-gun slot, they can pick off an impressive number of torpedoes and send a lot of Trebuchets to targets. Even if they're dodged, they've left the heavy strike craft vulnerable and averted their attacks for the duration of the missile salvo. They have very powerful reactors, strong shields and armor, and enough speed and maneuverability to effectively supplement/escort a capital ship. And, of course, at ranges within 5 km, they can use their Trebs to snipe turrets of value (like the Torpedo launchers, mass drivers, etc.). Use Herc-II's as a substitute if necessary.
3) Supernova SSM's. PLOX.
4) Split up Serkr Team when not targetting pairs of Karunas or a Narayana; each of the corvettes is paired with either a Hyperion or a Deimos and Aeolus. The threat being that, while not quite being able to one-shot Karunas (unless it's a Bellerophon and Deimos/Aeolus), they can definitely do it in two, and any attempt at a counterstrike would also face the threat of a subsequent shock-jump by the other two portions of Serkr Team. This is just an idea, no idea if it would work in practice, but still. Fun to think about.
5) Try to keep Byrne on the passive defense, and exploit/fuel the friction between Byrne and Netreba/Calder. Unless you get a golden opportunity, don't destroy the Toutatis or too many 3rd Fleet assets, in order to continue and exploit the lack of unity between the UEF fleets.
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1) Pick off as many ships as possible (though they should probably Sanctus-class at least); use highly disproportionate force to do it, and be unpredictable.
Regularly have Pegasus and Aurora fighters do recon and 'vectoring' for potential shock jumps. Even if it's right outside places like a Kumari.
Lure out a frigate or Sanctus with large numbers of minor, but significant, strikes; always make it seem as if it's a small engagement and that a relatively small force commitment can save the situation. And then, on a good number of these occasions, actually let them succeed. So when you get the right opportunity and a Karuna or a few Sanctus cruisers comes in, you can feasibly vector in a shock-jump with Serkr Team (or just the Atreus herself; her capability and reputation for impossibly rapid subspace jumps would make even Calder hesitant to bring in the cavalry right away, giving the Atreus the time to escape without too much trouble).
this is exactly the sort of long-term attrition war the GTVA means to avoid. it's completely counter to the overall objective of strengthening against shivan invasion. they need to absorb sol quickly and as intact as possible, not bleed it dry.
Every time there's a minor engagement, send in a ludicrously disproportionate force to take out the UEF assets present. Given Byrne's passivity, the general friction between Byrne, Netreba, and Calder, Calder's famous aggression and the autonomy between 1st and 2nd/3rd Fleets, they'll be much less responsive to offensively committing a massive force deployment, especially after the events of Delenda Est. For ships with sprint drives, the window of opportunity to counterstrike would be quite limited to begin with.
that plays into the UEF's hands. committing an unwarranted massive force for relatively little gain WILL open whatever those forces were guarding to counterattack.
2) In major engagements, have a wing or two of Ares fighters be dedicated to warhead intercept and point defense against UEF gunships, bombers, and (depending on the circumstances) Kents. With Maxims in the two-gun slot and Balors or Kaysers in the four-gun slot, they can pick off an impressive number of torpedoes and send a lot of Trebuchets to targets. Even if they're dodged, they've left the heavy strike craft vulnerable and averted their attacks for the duration of the missile salvo. They have very powerful reactors, strong shields and armor, and enough speed and maneuverability to effectively supplement/escort a capital ship. And, of course, at ranges within 5 km, they can use their Trebs to snipe turrets of value (like the Torpedo launchers, mass drivers, etc.). Use Herc-II's as a substitute if necessary.
this is completely ignoring the UEF's own fighters. having lumbering heavy assault fighters sitting around just for defense is an uhlan/kent pilot's wet dream. they would be obliterated, just as easily as you say they would obliterate the UEF gunships and bombers. they are called HEAVY ASSAULT for a reason.
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this is exactly the sort of long-term attrition war the GTVA means to avoid. it's completely counter to the overall objective of strengthening against shivan invasion. they need to absorb sol quickly and as intact as possible, not bleed it dry.
...which is why this strategy focuses on eliminating key UEF warships as quickly as possible to hasten victory--one that comes about as much through political and morale pressure as it does military. It's also not attrition war. Hard to call 'take advantage of enemy indecisiveness and disunity by frequently deploying massive forces to take out small chunks of assets'. It's basically what Steele did to take the Jovian Rim in WiH's opening cutscene. He just went straight in with an entire battlegroup at once and took advantage of the fact that the UEF never sorties the kind of huge forces required to take that on.
that plays into the UEF's hands. committing an unwarranted massive force for relatively little gain WILL open whatever those forces were guarding to counterattack.
...that's what the GTVA's been doing the ENTIRE TIME. Seriously, remember Calder's rant at Byrne? Or the Suffron captain's rant to Brie in mission 1? Aristeia was a huge deal because the UEF actually used its assets (well, half of them, anyway) in a coordinated and offensive manner--and when everything but the Carthage was tied up in the battle, 1st Fleet did...nothing. At best, they served as a ludicrously disproportionate deterrant against an attack against Earth by the Carthage (which would leave Artemis Station wide open...which was the whole point of the Carthage being there in the first place).
The UEF has demonstrated, across the board, how little they commit to counterstrikes, and how hesitant they are to do it at all. Their best showing was in Darkest Hour, which was in the context of a blitz on Earth where the UEF could be defeated then and there--and it was Calder who ordered it.
Also remember: this isn't some big, planned out operation we're talking about--most of the time, nothing would happen, and the UEF reinforcements would force the small GTVA force to retreat. But, say, one time out of ten, when the UEF sends out a frigate to protect against a raid of a Deimos and an Aeolus on a shipment of fighters, the Atreus herself jumps in and obliterates it straight away. A Charybdis might be there to jam all long-range comms and warn of (and coordinate) subspace jumps. If Darkest Hour is any indication, any UEF counterattack would have to be done within a couple minutes. The counterattack force would have to be sufficient to take on the Atreus, a Deimos, an Aeolus, and maybe a Charybdis AWACS and the supporting craft. Given the UEF's hesitance, disunity, and dwindling fleet, it's be pretty damn hard to get that force together fast enough. And then, the odds of doing enough damage or disabling the Atreus before it jumps out are slim.
this is completely ignoring the UEF's own fighters. having lumbering heavy assault fighters sitting around just for defense is an uhlan/kent pilot's wet dream. they would be obliterated, just as easily as you say they would obliterate the UEF gunships and bombers. they are called HEAVY ASSAULT for a reason.
...no, not really. I've actually tested this out, both indirectly and directly. The Ares fighters stay close to their designated capital ship--like, say, the Hood or Carthage. The capship's point defenses allow the Ares to avoid a dogfight, and in the event of missiles, they can either dodge, tank, or take cover behind their capship. And since Trebs outrange Grimlers anyway, it wouldn't be an easy thing to try. And you'd be surprised--as maneuverable as an Uhlan or Kent is, an Ares' low maneuverability is not nearly as much a weakness when it's got three Heavy Flak turrets covering its back, along with 1-3 fellow wingmen that can spew 6 Balors each. When the enemy maneuvers to deal with the flak, you get an opening to let loose with your own guns, forcing either further evasive maneuvers, disengagement, or going all-out offensive in the hopes of taking down a highly durable fighter (let alone surviving the ordeal).
This gets even more daunting when there's a wing of Perseus (or even Atalanta!) fighters in the way--far from impossible, I know, but at best it takes a good deal of time and effort to accomplish, not to mention a level of skill, experience, and methodology that the UEF is starting to really run short on in its fighter corps. And god help you if the capship in question is a Chimera. Or if there's a Cretheus nearby as well.
And, perhaps, the Ares might be carrying Tornadoes in one of their banks--dodging one volley is not too much of a pain, but what happens if he follows it up with two more volleys, all while AAAf's and pulse turrets/flak are blasting away at you?
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Man y'all sound like the GTVA Admiralty
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...that's what the GTVA's been doing the ENTIRE TIME.
No, it's really not. The first 18 months of the war were characterized by a hilariously low intensity of conflict. Having engagements where there were even three or four corvettes or frigates taking part were rare, and a ludicrously disproportionate force was absolutely unheard of during anything not named the "Battle of Neptune".
Steele operates different, true, but it's still not to the level you seem to think it is. If there were ever any real, truly ludicrously disproportionate strike against a UEF asset (aside from perhaps the Blitz, and even that's highly questionable), whatever UEF asset it was would simply cease to exist. However, and here's why it hasn't happened, so would any GTVA assets committed. As soon as UEF command learned that there was something like a large concentration of corvettes or a destroyer that actually committed to the field, there would be three or four FrigRons in the area in a matter of minutes.
The GTVA can't afford those kinds of losses, even if they're inflicting similar.
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'Hilariously low intensity' for warships larger than modern aircraft carriers hurling around bizarro-world yields, mind.
The opening stages of the war are full of the kind of battles that were fun to play in base FreeSpace 2: a couple wings of fighters, a warship or two or three. Nice for multiplayer! Which is not to say there were not larger engagements (there definitely were), but it's a great place to say 'I want to have a mission where a small group of ships goes and fights another small group of ships over a clear objective', which, again, was the mission design philosophy Volition liked to stick to.
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...that's what the GTVA's been doing the ENTIRE TIME.
No, it's really not. The first 18 months of the war were characterized by a hilariously low intensity of conflict. Having engagements where there were even three or four corvettes or frigates taking part were rare, and a ludicrously disproportionate force was absolutely unheard of during anything not named the "Battle of Neptune".
Okay, allow me to reclassify: that's what the GTVA has been doing throughout WiH P1. From Artemis Station to Delenda Est, high-intensity warfare utilizing disproportionate force has been heavily shifting the balance of the war towards the GTVA's favor.
Still, a few examples about moderately sized engagements before WiH:
1) The Reunion. 14th BG obliterates the UEFg Renjian.
2) Calder sends four frigates as a follow-up, but holds back the Toutatis. One frigate gets destroyed (by 14th BG), others retreat.
3) First Battle of Neptune. Hecate destroyer, multiple Deimos-class corvettes, two UEF frigates, four UEF corvettes/Sanctus's, and possibly more in the way of smaller ships (such as Tev cruisers).
4) Second Battle of Neptune.
5) Ambush of the GTD Requiem.
6) At least a few significant engagements involving Narayana heavy frigates driving off Tev ships through artillery fire.
So while your point is largely correct, there were a fair number of larger engagements in the 18 months between AoA and WiHp1.
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Steele operates different, true, but it's still not to the level you seem to think it is. If there were ever any real, truly ludicrously disproportionate strike against a UEF asset (aside from perhaps the Blitz, and even that's highly questionable), whatever UEF asset it was would simply cease to exist. However, and here's why it hasn't happened, so would any GTVA assets committed. As soon as UEF command learned that there was something like a large concentration of corvettes or a destroyer that actually committed to the field, there would be three or four FrigRons in the area in a matter of minutes.
The GTVA can't afford those kinds of losses, even if they're inflicting similar.
Byrne reiterates how the Tevs can afford destroyer-level casualties. Considering how the Tevs have two dozen Hecates (if Noemi's comment is accurate), it's not entirely unreasonable.
And the dynamic you outlined just doesn't add up, unless I'm misunderstanding. The GTVA can't just do an all-out assault on Mars or Earth because they'd be facing the whole UEF force at once--Byrne's fleet would be in full gear, Netreba and Calder would be all over the action, and the fleet bombers and Durgas would get right into the thick of things. The Tevs can't stand against that, which is why the UEF is so heavily crippled by its lack of cohesion--Byrne's fleet rarely does anything that isn't purely defensive, Netreba is caught between two starkly different philosophies and pressures from Calder and Byrne, and the Solaris won't do anything except defend Earth. Steele's blitz of Artemis Station and the Jovian Rim took advantage of the fact that the UEF wouldn't scramble their assets to save the Rim.
The Blitz was an interesting event, but it makes sense in context--Steele targeted infrastructure and rear-line targets; the very things the UEF had been lulled into thinking were off the table as far as the war went. It put the pressure on the UEF, afterwards, to act decisively to avoid defeat. This lead to the official split between Byrne and Netreba/Calder, allowing Steele to focus on the elements of the 2nd and 3rd Fleets that were on offense. He succeeded spectacularly in his destruction of the Wargods, and now the UEF's total fleet is reaching a level where the Tevs alone have parity. If more assets from the 2nd and 3rd fleets can be picked off (further taking advantage of Byrne's passivity), eventually even the UEF as a whole will be outnumbered.
Of course, if the Vasudans get actively involved, things get dire. Vasudan ships have good beams, mainly due to the fact that their emitters aren't gigantic and as fragile as a Hermes. And within 2km, the dozen-ish Fusion Mortars of the Shepsakaf become quite threatening.
Anyway, the UEF does not act cohesively unless its heart is under attack. So unless you attack Earth, Mars, or Luna, don't expect the First Fleet to do much--Steele took advantage of this many times throughout WiHp1. And as far as counterattacks go, 'a few minutes' is too long. By then, Serkr Team is already gone. The Atreus will be giving you its tail-lights. And do you really think that 1st and 2nd Fleets could organize a large enough counterstrike force to take on the Atreus, Serkr Team, and a few supporting ships in order to avenge the loss of one or two frigates, all in the span of a couple minutes? After Delenda Est, they'll constantly be worrying about something like that being another trap. And knowing Steele, it actually WILL BE, each time, because he has contingencies for the contingencies. And he likes 'dem sprint drives. A lot.
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I'm not going to go through and pick that post apart piece by piece, and the beginning of it is actually fairly well structured, but you miss one important part.
The Second Battle of Neptune was a snoozer. The 16th BG jumped in expecting a fight to take the planet, and instead found it almost totally undefended. For whatever its strategic ramifications, it was not a large capital ship fight. There are a grand total of four canon and explored large engagements before War in Heaven, and three of them happen within days of the 14th arriving in Sol. Only one that you have listed happens after Admiral Severanti adopts the policy of low-level conflict.
Additionally, Narayanas did not exist as artillery frigates until fairly recently. As one of the project members for BP:Tev, I would also adore it if you could point me toward any of those incidents you're talking about.
And, if you would, allow me to clarify what I meant in the latter half of my post.
The GTVA can't afford those losses from a public relations standpoint. They have to be winning the war, not fighting the war, for the support from home to keep coming. If it dries up, so do they. Trading ship for ship in brutal, ship-heavy slugfests is exactly what the GTVA cannot afford.
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And, if you would, allow me to clarify what I meant in the latter half of my post.
The GTVA can't afford those losses from a public relations standpoint. They have to be winning the war, not fighting the war, for the support from home to keep coming. If it dries up, so do they. Trading ship for ship in brutal, ship-heavy slugfests is exactly what the GTVA cannot afford.
Or couldn't afford for 18 months. At which point, the war had gone for far too long and they were ready to loose more ships in order to finish the war more quickly. Which is when Steele comes into the fray.
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Well, that ties in with the reason they couldn't lose many ships. When Steele came in, it's obvious to any outside observer, and probably made even more plainly obvious to your average GTVA citizen, that Steele is winning, and winning handily. Momentum confers with itself advantages beyond the tactical.
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Steele should wear down the Martians they are, AFAIK, the least affected fleet from casualty reports we see in game, maybe a martian blitz?
While at that, have the Vazods attack earth and pin down Bryne, have Atreus jump on top of Solaris' escape point to deliver the coup de grace.
Once that is done, start purging all the Gaian Effort infidels and dissidents.
After that, Steele should have a victory party on Canada, they named a fort in his honor after all.
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I for one am kind of surprised that steele hasn't been sending in the Atreus and Serkr, seeing that they all have sprint drives, on coordinated shock jumps to try to knock one of the solaris destroyers out of the war. Even if you felt kind with your armor scripting, I think having all those tev ships emerge from hyperspace, beam once, and then jump back out asap would likely at least demand that even a solaris destroyer spend a few months in dry dock getting the holes patched. I guess the counter would be to have all of the Narayanas of a fleet parked around the solaris, but then jumping in and hitting whichever frigate of the screen you feel like on a daily basis would be pretty demoralizing.
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I for one am kind of surprised that steele hasn't been sending in the Atreus and Serkr, seeing that they all have sprint drives, on coordinated shock jumps to try to knock one of the solaris destroyers out of the war. Even if you felt kind with your armor scripting, I think having all those tev ships emerge from hyperspace, beam once, and then jump back out asap would likely at least demand that even a solaris destroyer spend a few months in dry dock getting the holes patched. I guess the counter would be to have all of the Narayanas of a fleet parked around the solaris, but then jumping in and hitting whichever frigate of the screen you feel like on a daily basis would be pretty demoralizing.
The issue with that is that the Solari destroyers have pretty much sat at the centre of their escort group at their respective home bases through out most of the war meaning taking one out a monumentally risky operation. To kill a Solaris with a good chance off victory you would need to lure it away from it's home base somehow, at least then you are only dealing with the federal fleet and not planetary defences as well.
It is the kind of operation Steele would jump at on but only if he thought he stood a realistic chance at coming out on top numbers wise and remember you are talking about putting a TEI generation destroyer + his best HK group on the line all at the same time in an operation which while useful is not currently essential to the war effort.
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They wouldn't be at risk though, they would just jump in, fire one volley, and jump out is what he is saying.
e: Which would work quite nicely considering serkr could easily vaporize a karuna in one volley.
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I'm not going to go through and pick that post apart piece by piece, and the beginning of it is actually fairly well structured, but you miss one important part.
The Second Battle of Neptune was a snoozer. The 16th BG jumped in expecting a fight to take the planet, and instead found it almost totally undefended. For whatever its strategic ramifications, it was not a large capital ship fight. There are a grand total of four canon and explored large engagements before War in Heaven, and three of them happen within days of the 14th arriving in Sol. Only one that you have listed happens after Admiral Severanti adopts the policy of low-level conflict.
So? Within days or not, they still happened and had a tremendous impact on the next 18+ months. Your point is overall good, though.
Okay, so the one you mentioned is...the ambush of the GTD Requiem, right? The Toutatis is implied to have been deployed at least once before the events of WiH--unless the tech entries for all of the Solaris-class destroyers (and the class itself) only canonically exist *after* the events of Delenda Est?
Additionally, Narayanas did not exist as artillery frigates until fairly recently. As one of the project members for BP:Tev, I would also adore it if you could point me toward any of those incidents you're talking about.
Eh? Then were they refitted to be artillery frigates just before WiH? Then when did they figure out that the Narayana class just couldn't work as the heavy, close-up brawler that it was originally intended to be? Was it just extrapolation? And if they were only used very recently, then why does their tech entry imply that they'd had major impacts on engagements through their artillery fire alone? And what were those Narayanas doing for the past 18 months, if they never fought in a battle or were under refits?
And, if you would, allow me to clarify what I meant in the latter half of my post.
The GTVA can't afford those losses from a public relations standpoint. They have to be winning the war, not fighting the war, for the support from home to keep coming. If it dries up, so do they. Trading ship for ship in brutal, ship-heavy slugfests is exactly what the GTVA cannot afford.
True, very true. The good news for the Tevs, thus, is that they benefit from being able to tackle the UEF 'piecemeal', and many of their ship designs are extremely well suited for shock-jumping a frigate before jumping back out in a few minutes. Except for a couple Diomedes (heh :/ ) and perhaps a Deimos or two in TBI, the Tevs have not sustained major losses whenever they've made a really aggressive or bold move. Severanti still escaped with the Meridian (and most, potentially all, of his escort ships) after he bombed the crap out of Luna. Serkr Team got off scot-free after obliterating a Narayana. The assaults on the Akula and Ranvir didn't result in a single ship lost, but both of the UEF frigates were destroyed. The blitz on Artemis Station killed 3 Sanctus' and 2 Karunas without a single loss, and the First Battle of Neptune killed 2 frigates, 4 Sanctus cruisers, and paved the way for taking Neptune, at the cost of a Deimos (and a lot of fighters--part of the lessons learned for both sides).
A lot of this is made possible by the UEF's continual failure to respond to threats with adequate or excessive force, especially where First Fleet is concerned. It's hard to treat the Solaris as a sword of Damocles if it's never been deployed and the guy in command of it has an extensive track record of under-committing his ships to anything but strict defensive maneuvers.
Then there was the ambush and destruction of the UEFg Rhineland, too.
By Sunglare, the UEF's 'outer half' has committed fully to decisive maneuvers twice, and the Tevs did not receive a beating. In fact, it's suggested that the UEF came out of that action more bloodied ('gave our artillery a sound thrashing' during Aristeia). While this makes the 2nd/3rd Fleets much more formidable and significant a force, it also gives Steele more opportunities to go all-out aggressive and shock-jump a Solaris or Narayana pair. If the Shepsekaf has joined the fray, things could get ugly very fast.
I for one am kind of surprised that steele hasn't been sending in the Atreus and Serkr, seeing that they all have sprint drives, on coordinated shock jumps to try to knock one of the solaris destroyers out of the war. Even if you felt kind with your armor scripting, I think having all those tev ships emerge from hyperspace, beam once, and then jump back out asap would likely at least demand that even a solaris destroyer spend a few months in dry dock getting the holes patched. I guess the counter would be to have all of the Narayanas of a fleet parked around the solaris, but then jumping in and hitting whichever frigate of the screen you feel like on a daily basis would be pretty demoralizing.
The issue with that is that the Solari destroyers have pretty much sat at the centre of their escort group at their respective home bases through out most of the war meaning taking one out a monumentally risky operation. To kill a Solaris with a good chance off victory you would need to lure it away from it's home base somehow, at least then you are only dealing with the federal fleet and not planetary defences as well.
It is the kind of operation Steele would jump at on but only if he thought he stood a realistic chance at coming out on top numbers wise and remember you are talking about putting a TEI generation destroyer + his best HK group on the line all at the same time in an operation which while useful is not currently essential to the war effort.
A Solaris has 180K hitpoints; I know meta-game factors changes up the dynamic a bit, but just using it as a baseline:
Serkr Team's single-salvo damage output is, using the standard Chimera and Bellerophon loadout, 60K + 60K + 77K - 1600 = 196,500 damage (roughly). Serkr Team has upgraded weapons. As it stands, Serkr Team alone could one-shot a Solaris. They also have sprint-drives, advanced armor, etc. With the incredible point defenses and coordination they have, it'd be a pretty daunting task to kill Serkr Team before they jump back out. The major caveat is that they'd likely need time/AWACS support to calculate the jumps/vectors beforehand, which would require the Solaris to be in the same area for long enough. A challenge, but not unheard of. In a major engagement, this already happens as part of the battle, so it may give a window of opportunity.
A Titan's damage output for its forward beams alone is 99K. Add in the two TerSlashBlue's and pulse turrets, and its capable of two-shotting a Solaris by itself, unless its beams are sniped quickly enough (or jammed quickly enough); definitely doable, yes, but what if you add in Serkr Team?
A Raynor's HBlue does about 41K from something like 9+ km away. It can fire every 30 seconds, I think, too. It also has a BBlue, 4 MBlue's, 2 TerSlashBlue's, and 2 SBlue's to use to fend off other threats until it can jump out again.
Say the Carthage and her battlegroup plays defense and holds the fort at Artemis. Let's say that the Eris is docked at a Kumari instillation orbiting Mars. Also at that station is a Narayana, a Karuna, and a couple Sanctus cruisers. Now, assuming the subspace transits are vectored, with about a minute warning:
Steele jumps in with the Imperieuse, Atreus, and Hydra. The Eris is oneshotted. The rest of the UEF ships turn to engage. They have about 30-35 seconds to do something before they are targets for an absurd amount of firepower. One of those two frigates is going to die no matter what, but either way, a UEF counterstrike force would need to feature a Solaris practically by default, along with a sizable frigate force. Gathering that force would take time, jumping there would take time, but most of all, how exactly would they manage to disable or destroy any of those Tev ships before they jumped out?
Now, in practice, it wouldn't be that easy. And the UEF is probably at least somewhat prepared for such a contingency, or something like it. But it conveys the idea: killing a Solaris itself is easy if you bring a ton of firepower--it's the aftermath that is the challenge, for both sides. Particularly problematic for the UEF is that their ships are bad at doing lots of damage quickly, especially against targets with good point defenses. When you've got 30 seconds to make something happen, that's a really big problem to deal with. Any reinforcements would also be encumbered by that same problem--they have little time to do the needed damage before the targets escape, or the targets can fire back with extreme firepower. Steele is known for his aggressiveness and love of (seemingly) unconventional tactics.
Thus, you have a huge Damocles' Sword that's hanging over the UEF's head all the time, and with every frigate they lose, the more threatening that sword becomes.
Angel Flares are really going to need to work well if they're going to change that dynamic alone.
With a number of AWACS ships and Auroras, you could park them 50km away from Rheza or the normal places of the Solaris and Eris, and have them jump back out before becoming endangered. Again and again. And on occasion, Serkr Team will shock-jump a Karuna and jump back out before taking too much damage from whatever retaliatory force comes up. Even in the meantime for that, they'd have enough firepower between them to oneshot a Solaris--you'd need some pretty damn good reinforcements to take on Serkr Team in the small timeframe you have.
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180k hitpoints for a Solaris is about as good a baseline as an Orion's HP are for the Carthage.
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And there is beam jamming...dun, dun, dun...
"Let's kill us a Solaris"
"Uh, Admiral, our beams aren't working..."
"Well then, we'll repeat this crazy strike jump thing several times a day...I'm pretty sure the UEF can't handle this..."
Sure...that's how it goes...sure...
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And there is beam jamming...dun, dun, dun...
"Let's kill us a Solaris"
"Uh, Admiral, our beams aren't working..."
"Well then, we'll repeat this crazy strike jump thing several times a day...I'm pretty sure the UEF can't handle this..."
Sure...that's how it goes...sure...
The UEF has oculus' on full readiness standby 24/7 across their entire fleet zone?
I call bull****
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And there is beam jamming...dun, dun, dun...
"Let's kill us a Solaris"
"Uh, Admiral, our beams aren't working..."
"Well then, we'll repeat this crazy strike jump thing several times a day...I'm pretty sure the UEF can't handle this..."
Sure...that's how it goes...sure...
The UEF has oculus' on full readiness standby 24/7 across their entire fleet zone?
I call bull****
The GTVA has full intelligence on the position and readiness of the UEF's Solaris strength 24/7 across their entire fleet zone?
I call bull****.
More seriously, I've noticed lately in a variety of threads that people seem to have fallen into a logical fallacy. "The GTVA/UEF should do <x> because <y>, and that will give them a huge advantage." What this line of thinking simply doesn't do is imagine the consequences of the actions beyond the immediate and beneficial, and also anything that might be preventing the actions at any given time.
"The GTVA should go for huge fleet engagements so they can actually destroy some UEF ships." They can't do that because public opinion would very, very, very quickly make actually acheiving any of their stated objectives completely impossible.
"The GTVA should shock-jump any undefended Karunas or Narayanas or even Solarises, and then jump away just as fast." They can't do that because operational intelligence like that isn't exactly hanging from the lowest branches of the trees at this stage in the war. If you know exactly where the enemy is, they are likely either A) too heavily defended to attack or B) attacking you already. There are precious few exceptions to this, and nearly all of those exceptions become major plot points and intelligence coups in War in Heaven. The Agincourt is a huge intelligence coup for the UEF. It's not that they didn't attack it before because it was too defended, they just didn't know where the blasted thing was. The Ranvir and Akula are both regrouping from the chaotic aftermath of Artemis, and their losses (and situations) are barely the least bit representative of the way the war has been fought up to that point.
The other major problem that's been popping up is "<x>'s table stats show that it can do <y> to <z>." Forget everything you know about the tables. They exist as a basic framework. They are not the final word, or even the first word. They're general guidelines that can be molded and fit to the mission's needs as they must. "A full secondary bank of Paveways into the Carthage's engines would leave it easily disabled for the rest of the Wargods." That statement is 100% factual, going by the table stats. However, if you try to do this in Pawns on a Board of Bone, you'll find that the Carthage's engine subsystem is guardianed.
In short: There is always a reason to why something that seems simple does not happen. "Obvious" truths are neither obvious nor truths in all cases.
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The GTVA do shock jump undefended Karunas and Narayanas, then jump away fast. You already talked about the Ranvir and Akula, but I would assume anything isolated frigate they had intel of would be on the hit list. After all, the fact that Serkr team likes paints dead frigates on their hulls enough to be well-known before they toast their latest Narayana.
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And there is beam jamming...dun, dun, dun...
"Let's kill us a Solaris"
"Uh, Admiral, our beams aren't working..."
"Well then, we'll repeat this crazy strike jump thing several times a day...I'm pretty sure the UEF can't handle this..."
Sure...that's how it goes...sure...
The UEF has oculus' on full readiness standby 24/7 across their entire fleet zone?
I call bull****
You don't need an Oculus for beam jamming. Especially when you're talking about something as big and important as a Solaris-class destroyer, which is perfectly able to take care of itself.
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Well, even if they did need an Oculus for beam jamming I'm pretty sure they'd keep one around their Solaris destroyers at all times.
Wouldn't just leave those things unattended.
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Didn't the guys in the Forces Deployed to the Sol Theatre determine that there is only one oculus left now?
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I don't think the number of Oculus that escaped the Artemis blitz was ever revealed. The UEF definitely doesn't have more than a handful of them, but I am pretty sure they have more than one.
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Hm yeah, re-read the thread and they didn't find any exact numbers.
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More importantly, what is the precise intel that the GTVA holds regarding the beam jamming?
The amount of canon over this is overwhelming to me (which is an euphemistic way of saying that I know **** about this), but if the GTVA is still scratching their heads on how the feat was done, let alone how many devices the UEF has capable of it, they must suppose a very high degree of risk in any attack operation on their behalf.
They know that the UEF does not have lots of these devices. Delenda Est is both proof they know it and confirmation to them that such devices are not (at least) easily deployable.
However, given the relentless passing of time, two things can be deduced:
1) GTVA must assume the UEF will try to build these devices as their best defense against Serk and their destroyers. Even without good production lines, the GTVA can assume that the UEF places these devices as top priority for their production lines;
2) UEF must assume the GTVA has gathered sufficient data and is working on a counter measure for the device.
What they do not know is how the other party's development in their own research / build up is working out if sufficient time goes by. However, if too much time goes by, both parties know that the UEF has sufficient devices to pose a threat, and that GTVA's research might as well have found a counter measure rendering such devices useless.
Many variants of this idea are possible. Perhaps it is true that no counter measure can be devised. However in that case, the UEF can only *guess* that this is the case. It cannot assume it. Perhaps it is true that a counter measure can be devised but counter-counter measures can be as well. In this latter case, it may be possible that the task of the GTVA is easier than the UEF, or it may be possible the exact opposite (far too much work for the GTVA to adapt to new measures from the UEF devices).
That situation reminds me the tactical situations in Star Trek TNG against the Borg, where the enterprise rotated their weapons "frequency" and the Borg tried to adapt to it in real time. These kind of tactics were either effective or innefective depending on the plot demands and not on their own merits, obviously.
So how WiH part 2 deals with this "tactical" plot point is what I am somewhat curious.
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And there is beam jamming...dun, dun, dun...
"Let's kill us a Solaris"
"Uh, Admiral, our beams aren't working..."
"Well then, we'll repeat this crazy strike jump thing several times a day...I'm pretty sure the UEF can't handle this..."
Sure...that's how it goes...sure...
The UEF has oculus' on full readiness standby 24/7 across their entire fleet zone?
I call bull****
The GTVA has full intelligence on the position and readiness of the UEF's Solaris strength 24/7 across their entire fleet zone?
I call bull****.
My point was neither that the GTVA would always have kick ass intel, or that this is obviously the GTVA's solution. My point was that an all out shock jump attack on a solaris isn't stopped by the presence of UEF EW Platforms. Its stopped for a variety of reasons which have been exhaustively covered.
Don't think that just because I'm a Tev Fanboy means I think that attack is so obviously the only way to go with no downside. I was simply responding to the logical fallacy that says that the UEF have their EW platforms on full readiness all the time. I don't doubt that they have an Oculus near each Solaris, or that a Solaris could jam beams itself but that raises a pair of points:
A) If a solaris was doing that itself, I expect its combat power would be severely degraded as much of its EW capacity is being exhausted on jamming beams. Degrades the power of the shock jump of course, but doesn't prevent massive bomber waves from exploiting the Solaris' temporary handicap and jamming a ton of helios' down it's engine tube.
B) No military organization can be at constant readiness 24/7. Contrary to the belief of civilians. Provided the Tevs could somehow get their hands on detailed intel, this operation would be incredibly risky.. but not impossible. It would take the solaris and oculus probably about 2 minutes to spin up to GQ. Maybe shorter for the oculus. Smaller ship, fewer people, and fewer functions to have ready. Still a time frame though. I expect the UEF keeps a portion of their defensive formations on GQ on some kind of rotation, but that would still leave about one half to two thirds (depending on the stringency of this rotation) of the UEF fleet in rest mode, which a shock jump could devastate. Odds are they could escape whatever UEF ships were ready before the ones they hit could spin up to full readiness or recover from the massive damage they've just been handed.
The same holds true for the UEF standing CSP. Likely also on rotation, and most of their reinforcements and operational support will have gone up in smoke if their home base (the solaris in question) has been reduced to dust.
The downside to this strategy is of course, one of the other two UEF Admirals is going to get wind of the attack before the Tevs can jump out. If they're fast they'll hit Artemis or Neptune which are now uncovered and vulnerable. Mutual destruction of major bases, and the retreating Tevs are now caught between hammer and anvil. Let's assume they attack the Eris. Even if they succeed, the rest of the Martian fleet is now definitely up to GQ, and a load of Durga's are closing in for the kill. They sprint jump out back to Artemis. Except Calder and Byrne (even he cant be thick headed enough to ignore this kind of strategic opportunity) are also there, ravaging tev defences and hitting the damaged and now demoralized return of the Martian attack. their drives are now definitely cold, they are facing two fully combat ready solaris' who are most definitely not the sitting duck that the Eris was. At best the majority of the Tev fleet retreats to either Neptune or the portal. The tevs lose Artemis and likely more then a few ships.
I know there are all kinds of problems with the scenario I have just outlined but the simple essence is that neither side can commit to an all-out-balls-deep attack for reasons that have been discussed into the ground.
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excellent posting on this page
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B) No military organization can be at constant readiness 24/7. Contrary to the belief of civilians. Provided the Tevs could somehow get their hands on detailed intel, this operation would be incredibly risky.. but not impossible. It would take the solaris and oculus probably about 2 minutes to spin up to GQ. Maybe shorter for the oculus. Smaller ship, fewer people, and fewer functions to have ready. Still a time frame though. I expect the UEF keeps a portion of their defensive formations on GQ on some kind of rotation, but that would still leave about one half to two thirds (depending on the stringency of this rotation) of the UEF fleet in rest mode, which a shock jump could devastate. Odds are they could escape whatever UEF ships were ready before the ones they hit could spin up to full readiness or recover from the massive damage they've just been handed.
That's true of modern militaries, but we don't know that it's necessarily true of the UEF and GTVA; their warships could very well carry enough excess crew and have enough automation and redundant systems that all combat stations are manned at all times. Obviously, there are significant drawbacks to investing those levels of resources in redundancy. However, spending two minutes to get ready for combat is simply not a tenable proposition when warship-on-warship engagements usually begin completely without warning and are often over within a matter of seconds. We can assume that any military will have taken measures to have their ships able to enter the fight on the timescale that battles take place on.
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Somehow I doubt about the automation, they have thousands just on a Karuna, and around 10k on a Solaris I expect, when reaching ships those sizes, you'd expect more than half the ship to be automated, (robotic sections controlled by AIs that are controlled by a "control"staff for example), yet given the size of your fighter and it's cabin compared to the ships, they feel small since most of a Karu's silhouette is faked by it's armor.
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But a modern military has two...shifts, so a carrier is combat ready 24h a day, so why not an Occolus?
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I think Battuta has adopted the "Hot-vs-Cold" method of reinforcing our speculation.
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But a modern military has two...shifts, so a carrier is combat ready 24h a day, so why not an Occolus?
A modern carrier has two watches so that it can continuously conduct day-to-day operations. During actual combat, everyone on both watches would have something to do.
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But a modern military has two...shifts, so a carrier is combat ready 24h a day, so why not an Occolus?
A modern carrier has two watches so that it can continuously conduct day-to-day operations. During actual combat, everyone on both watches would have something to do.
Exactly.
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Well, modern carriers are not under the threat of being annihilated within 2 minutes if they are not prepared to jump to subspace. You would think that these conditions ask for a change of ship management so as to avoid the obliteration of these ships.
Yes, the redundancy required is extremely costly, but a lot cheaper than actually losing your ships.
Having said all this, there are two important caveats.
1) It is quite probable the UEF was not ready to implement new protocols in personnel (and automation) management, given that the "shock" tactics of the GTVA were (somewhat) of a novelty to the UEF. Their ships were not ready before the war, and they might have not have yet adapted completely;
2) It is also possible that a cost analysis was made and a decision taken to the effect that this management is just too costly and would involve too many corrections both in hardware and in management. Given the reasons outlined by Drogoth, it is possible the UEF has concluded that the risk of further big shock tactics by the GTVA is minimized and thus the need for a major adaptation on their part to be ready "on the second" is just not on their priorities.
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I thought RL warships generally operate 3 shifts/day with a few exceptions everyone onboard expected to take on damage control type duties when not "on duty" so to speak
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I thought RL warships generally operate 3 shifts/day with a few exceptions everyone onboard expected to take on damage control type duties when not "on duty" so to speak
shift turnovers vary with the different watches, the condition of the ship, and even with who writes the watch bill that day. The most intense and critical, "stare at this panel and do nothing else" type of watches get 4-6 hour shifts, while people like the duty officer for a section will have a 24h watch in a "call me if something ****s up" role. those not "on watch" have their normal jobs to do. maintenance work, routine duties, training, management/admin type stuff for the officers, etc. to some degree, everyone on the ship is damage control, but on the bigger ones, there are specific damage control teams that are coordinated and dispatched rather than have everyone run amok doing the best they can.
aside from all of that, i was under the impression that while a carrier is deployed, the day-to-day operations ARE being "combat ready." they sortie constantly, not just when they have something to bomb. Various things i've read/watched gave me the impression that there's nearly always a CAP in the air, or at the very least manned fighters ready to launch sitting on the deck. if i ever get the chance to talk to a pilot/topside ops type person i'll have to ask about this.
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And then he gets executed for attempting to disseminate classified military doctrine.
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The vague and general readiness of a carrier's CAP isn't classified. "We always have guys in the air or ready to launch" isn't classified.
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Just kidding man :P :yes:
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Since the Earth Blitz was arguably a military success for the GTVA, should they try for a Martian Blitz?
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No. Unlike First Fleet, Second Fleet knows what they're doing. Orbital infrastructure probably also has a much greater defensive presence on all UEF planets after Steele's Blitz was so devastating, making it the sort of trick that works great once but is very hard to pull off a second time.
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That, and the Blitz was complete and total strategic and tactical surprise. It won't work a second time.
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Yeah, the UEF wasn't expecting Steele to launch an all-out assault on Earth's orbital infrastructure after 18 months of low-intensity conflict in the outer system. Up until WiH the war was proceeding at a comparative glacial pace with none of Steele's subspace speed chess.
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And even when Steele took over and increased the intensity and pace, he still left the vast majority of infrastructure intact. Only with the Blitz did that change.
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180k hitpoints for a Solaris is about as good a baseline as an Orion's HP are for the Carthage.
Fair enough, but unless its durability is something like doubled, the same kind of danger/threat still applies. It works as a threat because Steele has a reputation and track record for not playing by the old rules, for being very aggressive and creative, and for tons of rapid, precise subspace jumps (both with Serkr Team and the Atreus).
As for beam jamming, yes, it is certainly a viable counter. However, I wouldn't hold it up as a surefire counter--TAG missiles are still a major threat for beam jamming, as well as Tev AWACS support (of which they have plenty, not even including Auroras). And after DE, it's possible that the Tevs have got enough data/scans/experience with Oculus beam jamming that they have better performance against it. The UEF, obviously, also tries to improve its anti-beam capabilities, but the point still stands about the uncertainty.
And as for the Tevs having frequent, solid intel on the positions of major UEF fleet assets? I'd bet that they do to at least a significant extent--Solaris-class destroyers are rarely deployed, and vectoring the continual carrier actions back to their sources would be a big approach as well. It's at least somewhat likely that they usually loiter near vital, central UEF positions (like a Kumari).
Add in a number of Pegasus recon operations, AWACS, Auroras, spies, and assistance from the Gefs, and you've got a pretty decent case.
The real key for the "shock-jump a Solaris and kill it" scenario is that the UEF isn't (at least so far) well suited for quickly organizing a massive, asset-heavy counterstrike force against a dangerous threat. The best they've done so far is Calder's awesome use of his two remaining Narayanas to drive the Atreus off at Rheza Station. And even then, Steele escaped relatively quickly, despite having made a jump a couple minutes earlier. If Steele suddenly commits a massive force (Atreus, Serkr Team, a few AWACS, and maybe a Diomedes) to gank the Toutatis, the UEF would have to organize and commit a massive response force to either strike back at the gank team or the now-lightly defended Tev positions in the system. But between the Hood, Imperieuse, Shepsakaf, and over a dozen Deimos corvettes (along with at least half a dozen Aeolus/Hyperion cruisers), that's still a very risky proposition. And if Steele's destination for jumping back 'home' is a place that is counterattacked, well, now things are even riskier.
I'm not saying it would be anything short of incredibly difficult to pull off for Steele, but the threat is real enough to have a strategic impact in itself (especially in the future, when the UEF has perhaps lost more frigate assets, making it an even more credible and dangerous threat). And given the friction and clashing strategies of Byrne and Calder, it may be even more of a threat.
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You lost me on the first sentence of your post. Please compare an Orion's hitpoints with the Carthage's effective hit points.
Also I do not know why you don't understand the GTVA's total terror of UEF bomber assets.
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Fair enough, but unless its durability is something like doubled, the same kind of danger/threat still applies.
In one of the R2 missions, the Carthage has effectively over 4 Million hitpoints. That does not mean anything at all.
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Since people have dismissed the possibility of a second Blitz...
Steele should focus more on small tactical attacks (taking out a Karuna or Sanctus here and there, etc.) rather than large high-risk strategic moves?
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One would think that now that the UEF is headed toward logistical collapse with no chance of redemption, the wiser move would be to just let it happen and not take risks until it happens. However, between the social pressure increasing in the GTVA home systems, and Steele's ruthlessness, you can be sure he'll try something else to fasten things. After all, we all know he doesn't play by the book.
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I think as discussed before Steele will need to at a minimum keep picking at the UEF fleet to keep it from doing anything too ambitious/desperate though ultimately he will want as fast a victory as feasible so he will continue to strike at important targets looking to cemant that fact that we seem to be in the end game and force it to accelerate.
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Since people have dismissed the possibility of a second Blitz...
Steele should focus more on small tactical attacks (taking out a Karuna or Sanctus here and there, etc.) rather than large high-risk strategic moves?
He can't do another blitz in so far, that he can't do such a widely spread out attack again, without suffering massive losses. But that doesn't mean he has to completely stop targeting logistically important stations. He'll "just" have to commit enough forces to overcome the local defenders and the fast response teams and be out there before the second wave of reinforcements can destroy his attack force.
Maybe wreak a bit of havoc with the gateway to make it harder for the UEF to move what fuel and ammo they have left to the places where they are needed.
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thinking about it, he probably dosnt have to destroy a lot now. Send a sprint equiped strike to hit an instilation somewhere with instructions to jump out when serious opposition shows up, this hurts the UEF more in some ways because 1) not only have they spent resources including precious fuel responding to an attack with little hope of causing serious damage to GTVA forces and 2) the UEF will be forced to either repair the target costing resources and the fuel needed to ship them or abandon it, again costs fuel to move the survivors on top of that it serves a blow to moral.
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the logistical collapse only happens if the pace of the war more or less maintains. if the GTVA sits on its ass, the UEF can rebuild. obviously not to full capacity anytime soon, but probably enough to pull them out of the deep end.
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So keep up the pressure against smaller ships, but avoid risky gambits against Solari vessels?
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What about an attempt at capturing Mercury? Or is the risk of those antimatter stores being destroyed either by accident or by the UEF not acceptable?
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The farms are massively defended by First Fleet and it has been mentioned they also have their own copious arrays of Apocalypse launchers.
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What about an attempt at capturing Mercury? Or is the risk of those antimatter stores being destroyed either by accident or by the UEF not acceptable?
The antimatter farms are nowhere near Mercury. They are on an eccentric orbit somewhere inside Mercury's, and assaulting them is nearly impossible, since in order to do so, you need to have a fix on their orbital elements (which is tricky), you need to jump in at very precise coordinates (otherwise you risk coming out of subspace outside of the farm's heatshield envelope), and then you need to be there at the right time and place and squawking the right signature, otherwise you get a free sample of the farm's products right in your face. Or they turn their heat sinks into makeshift beam weapons on you.
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Fair enough, but unless its durability is something like doubled, the same kind of danger/threat still applies.
In one of the R2 missions, the Carthage has effectively over 4 Million hitpoints. That does not mean anything at all.
...what?
That's...interesting. I'm intrigued. And very, very confused.
I mean, four million hitpoints would be four times that of the Colossus. And four times that of a Sathanas, IIRC. That kind of durability is a game-changer--it means that GTVA destroyers could actually last more than a few seconds in front of a Sathanas, really opening up the target to flanking shock-jumps with Chimera/Bellerophon corvettes.
And....well, ****, if the Carthage can have four million hitpoints, what is the Atreus capable of?
Better yet, why did the Carthage even need assistance from the Imperieuse at all on Delenda Est? Heck, if it kept the battlegroup together and then focused everything on taking out the Oculus ASAP, nothing short of sniping all of the Carthage's beams would have worked.
So, I guess I'm wondering what the general rules are for that kind of durability; could the Carthage not achieve it after two rapid subspace jumps, due to power constraints? Is it more of an adaptational ability against UEF-specific weapons?
Also I do not know why you don't understand the GTVA's total terror of UEF bomber assets.
In general, sure, that's a huge factor. But with the Atreus, Serkr Team, AWACS support and perhaps even a bit of cruiser/corvette support, you'd need a huge bomber force to threaten the gank team in the time before they could jump out. And if the UEF's reserve of heavy bombers is actually as low as it is implied to be, then it would be a major commitment (even if very reasonable).
Really, with the range advantage and damage output advantage the Redeemer has over the Vajra (and the fact that a Durga can mount 12 of the former while Vajra bombers can only mount one of the latter), and the limited utility of torpedoes in their current form (a huge, slow, lumbering bomber waiting around for aspect lock after aspect lock at close range is just begging to get skewed with AAAf's and Trebuchets), the real strength of the UEF's bomber force seems to depend on how large its reserves of Durgas and growing supply of Lapiths are.
And if the Vajra's in-game performance and table data are not indicative of its real effectiveness, then why isn't it mounted as a warship weapon in place of, say, the Sanctus' mass drivers? Heck, doesn't a single Redeemer out-dps a Sanctus mass driver anyway, with about the same range (but a much larger volume of fire)?
I suppose the question is how powerful a non-interceptable anti-ship weapon capable of being mounted on a heavy bomber can be for it to not be superior to major armaments on larger warships. Range would seem to be the most practical of options (it's much more practical for a bomber to get within 1-2 kilometers of the target than for a corvette, for instance), but don't we already see the Redeemer and Vajra in action in Aristeia and Serkr's debut of gutting the Ranvir? Does that matter, though?
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See, now you've jumped to conclusions again. You once again mistake in-engine values for in-universe reality. This effective number of hitpoints is just a balancing tool for us so that we can make sure the mission plays out as we want it to; it does not not NOT mean that the Carthage is suddenly four times as tough as a Sathanas.
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See, now you've jumped to conclusions again. You once again mistake in-engine values for in-universe reality. This effective number of hitpoints is just a balancing tool for us so that we can make sure the mission plays out as we want it to; it does not not NOT mean that the Carthage is suddenly four times as tough as a Sathanas.
Okay, fair enough. I thought the in-engine values for canon FS1/2 were fair game, but I was mistaken.
I think I understand (finally, I know) the overall approach; in-story feats are the empirical standard, not hard stats beyond what is solidly confirmed by the story/exposition.
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Or they turn their heat sinks into makeshift beam weapons on you.
I so wanna see this in WiH2 :D
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See, now you've jumped to conclusions again. You once again mistake in-engine values for in-universe reality. This effective number of hitpoints is just a balancing tool for us so that we can make sure the mission plays out as we want it to; it does not not NOT mean that the Carthage is suddenly four times as tough as a Sathanas.
Okay, fair enough. I thought the in-engine values for canon FS1/2 were fair game, but I was mistaken.
I think I understand (finally, I know) the overall approach; in-story feats are the empirical standard, not hard stats beyond what is solidly confirmed by the story/exposition.
Thattaboy ;). That's exactly it.
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If an upgraded Orion can have that many EHP in Blue Planet surely you'd expect the Colossus or a Sathanas to have even more.
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*Alpha One shoots at the Carthage*
Alpha One: "Command, what the hell did you do to my Maxims? It's like I'm throwing jelly beans at this thing! I could have sworn that it said high hull damage in the manual! What's going on around here?!"
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Command: "Well, either someone is abusing armor table entries, or someone didn't check '$disable weapon damage scaling for player' in the ai_profile table" ^^
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I blame the AWACS ships.
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How will Steele put the new Cretheus light cruisers to use?
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How will Steele put the new Cretheus light cruisers to use?
Like a boss, that's how
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Use them to suddenly start tearing the **** out of UEF fighters I'd imagine, they would probably make things living hell in compound with the normal anti-fighter assets available.
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Use them to suddenly start tearing the **** out of UEF fighters I'd imagine, they would probably make things living hell in compound with the normal anti-fighter assets available.
Basically, deploy them to work alongside fighter squadrons or bomber squadrons where possible. Give them cover, escort, and fire support against the qualitatively superior UEF fighters, whom are becoming more and more inexperienced and poorly trained as the war continues. They could also serve as excellent point-defense backup for larger ships, in small skirmishes or large battles.
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In US Civil War terms:
Steele kind of seems like General Grant
Severanti-McClellan
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In US Civil War terms:
Steele kind of seems like General Grant
Severanti-McClellan
Huh. That's actually a pretty close parallel. I wonder if there's any possible parallel for Adm. Lopez in there (or Byrne, Netreba, or Calder).
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Huh. That's actually a pretty close parallel. I wonder if there's any possible parallel for Adm. Lopez in there (or Byrne, Netreba, or Calder).
If I had to make more U.S. Civil War parallels:
Lopez-Union General George Meade
Byrne-Confederate General Johnston
Calder-General Robert E. Lee
Netreba-General James Longstreet
I could explain my thoughts if you'd like.
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Huh. That's actually a pretty close parallel. I wonder if there's any possible parallel for Adm. Lopez in there (or Byrne, Netreba, or Calder).
If I had to make more U.S. Civil War parallels:
Lopez-Union General George Meade
Byrne-Confederate General Johnston
Calder-General Robert E. Lee
Netreba-General James Longstreet
I could explain my thoughts if you'd like.
Please do; I'm sorry to say that I've let my Civil War knowledge slip over the years. I definitely get the Stonewall pick, but the others leave me curious about the specific similarities.
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I never referred to General Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson.
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I never referred to General Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson.
Well, I guess I just reinforced my shortcoming even more :P
I'm puzzled as to how I confused the two...Johnston and Jackson aren't too similar of names. Huh.
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It's not a perfect analogy but I thought there were some comparisons:
Admiral Anita Lopez/U.S. General George Meade-Competent soldiers who could probably do a good job of being the overall military leader, but aren't gloryhounds
Admiral Byrne/Confederate General Joe Johnston-Military leaders who are defensively minded and disliked by some in the own militaries for not being aggressive enough
Admiral Calder/Confederate General Robert E. Lee-Very aggressive soldiers who want to take the fight to the enemy as much as possible and want to focus less on defensive campaigns
Admiral Netreba/Confederate General James Longstreet-Somewhere in the middle of the previous two
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Since it's been said the UEF will likely be more prepared for another large scale Blitz type attack, in that case then what should the next major strategic move for Steele be?
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As I've said before plenty of times, all Steele needs to do is just attrit the UEF war machine through limited strikes and not do another Blitz or Carthage. If he can just wear down the UEF fleet and make them run out of armor plating, cannon rounds, and replacement fighters he's won.
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That's assuming he doesn't feel any sort of time pressure.
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Sparda: That was Severanti's strategy. Steele wants to win as quickly as possible, because a lot of casualties in a few weeks time is better than even more over another years time.
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Or rather, a few casualties now are better than a civil war at home. Or being caught by a third Shivan Incursion pants down.
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A third Shivan Incursion could mean a GTVA peace treaty with the UEF
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Shortly before the UEF is murderized by the shivans.
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Yeah, peace doesn't matter much when everyone at peace is dead.
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Well they'd stand a better chance at surviving a Third shivan incursion if they stopped fighting each other
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Well they'd stand a better chance at surviving a Third shivan incursion if they stopped fighting each other
Yeah, like, right now...Not after another theoretical 18-months.
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The team have said that the war will come to a proper conclusion, without any cop-outs like a Shivan incursion.
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The team have said that the war will come to a proper conclusion, without any cop-outs like a Shivan incursion.
The title of the fifth act does somewhat give the hint that the Shivans will enter the stage at some point (perhaps after the conclusion of the tev-uef war).
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The team have said that the war will come to a proper conclusion, without any cop-outs like a Shivan incursion.
The title of the fifth act does somewhat give the hint that the Shivans will enter the stage at some point (perhaps after the conclusion of the tev-uef war).
Maybe not the Shivans; but in AoA the Vishnans did say "We will return when your people are ready" or something like that... :nervous:
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Yeah, ready to DIE! :shaking:
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Yeah, ready to DIE! :shaking:
any sort of
time pressure. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtrEN-YKLBM)
:nervous:
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Or rather, a few casualties now are better than a civil war at home. Or being caught by a third Shivan Incursion pants down.
So maybe try to sacrifice a few ships to take out a Solaris?
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I don't see him intentionally sacrificing ships to take down a Solaris. Gambling with a few corvettes or even an entire battlegroup, definitely, but certainly not sending them to an inevitable death and just marking them up on a chart as acceptable losses. Steele's a calculating chess player who won't make a sacrifice play without a contingency or two, not a butcher who will order men to go to their certain deaths in the hopes the enemy loses more in that attack than he does.
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Reminds me of Zapp Branaghan. :lol:
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Thank you for reminding me of those awesome posts back on Diaspora's board, priceless.
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I don't see him intentionally sacrificing ships to take down a Solaris. Gambling with a few corvettes or even an entire battlegroup, definitely, but certainly not sending them to an inevitable death and just marking them up on a chart as acceptable losses. Steele's a calculating chess player who won't make a sacrifice play without a contingency or two, not a butcher who will order men to go to their certain deaths in the hopes the enemy loses more in that attack than he does.
I didn't mean intentionally throwing them away carlessly (space Zerg rush). I meant he'd be willing to try a risky operation to take down a Solaris.
Or do you think it would serve a better strategic/tactical focus for Steele to not focus on Solari and that he should focus on the more numerous Karunas and Narayanas?
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More than anything else Steele needs an intact, fresh, trained fighter corps to prosecute a final attack on Earth. The alternative is still bloodbath.
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Yap. Because Durgas and Vajras. You need skilled pilots to fly escort for your capships or any kind of major assault against critical UEF targets is suicide.
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With the new part of WIH being released...
Any new thoughts on what the GTVA needs to do militarily?
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The question you asked me in PM was more interesting than that!
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Should I make a separate thread about that?
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Sure, I think that'd be a good idea - put a spoiler warning on it!
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Should that thread serve as the continuation of this thread and this thread die (i.e. it becomes a "GTVA strategy pt. 2" thread)?
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So since it sounds like Steel's up a bit of a creek, what should he do now?
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So since it sounds like Steel's up a bit of a creek, what should he do now?
Where are you getting that impression?
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From the campaign, it seemed like that Steele,
while under pressure from losing the Carthage, still has the momentum in the campaign. Afterall, Cassandra's projections haven't changed a day, Steele is still hitting Earth in a little more than a week. Plus he's being given a few extra destroyers for the final push, and the loss of the Carthage was blamed on his subordinate not following orders.
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If the last scene of the game was any indication, I don't think losing the Carthage was much of a setback. The real question becomes where is that Hecate battlegroup going? :nervous:
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The Carthage battlegroup was a hairsbreadth away from being completely combat ineffective. The air wing was gone and they had only two corvettes which were really fit for battle (and those got away). So what was lost, really? An old Orion, which would probably have been retired or mothballed after the war anyway.
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I killed the two Deimos^^
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You can capture 3 Deimoses, 4 gas miners full of gas and 2 AWACS in this mission if you play it with those goals in mind. Probably a lot of transports full of skilled Tev personnel too.
Aside from that, do not underestimate the loss of Neptune station. That's one less logistics staging point for Steele, which may become problematic very soon, especially given the amount of reinforcements he received after the loss of the Carthage. And, just as importantly, that's one more logistics point for the UEF, who is critically needing it.
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I killed the two Deimos^^
As did I.
I liked the little touch of having Laporte go "That's for Captain Genady!" when the ship he(she?) was fighting in Delenda Est blew up.
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Hmm, yes I failed to consider that you could disable their engines. Still, 2 Deimoses isn't much.
Matth: Neptune isn't much of a loss either. It could probably have been defended if Steele had decided he needed it. Still, the failure to destroy it was probably a bigger loss than the Carthage was.
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I didn't disable their engines, after disabling the Carthage I simply ordered my strikecraft to destroy them and they didn't manage to jump out.
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So since it sounds like Steel's up a bit of a creek, what should he do now?
Where are you getting that impression?
From reading spoilers/threads:
-lost the Carthage
-lost a logistics station
-UEF hasn't lost any of its destroyers
To use another expression, it looks like Steele's in a bit of a pickle now.
The question is: how should Steele/GTVA proceed from here?
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I don't think you're right that Steele's in a pickle, or in a weaker position than he was at the end of Act 2.
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You're all acting as if Steele didn't intend to absorb those losses, whereas if you actually read the briefing, you'll find that CASSANDRA's best prediction is that he fully accepted that he might get those losses, and that they wouldn't substantially affect his ORBAT.
Heck, if you look at the post-mission briefing, the battle actually strengthened Steele's position - He's basically now telling the Security Council what to do about the Sol Theatre, as the massive redeployment of Destroyer battlegroups to Sol shows. (I suspect this may be in error when the Shivans/Vishnans show up)
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Haven't reached that point in the game yet, although the number of destroyers must still be constrained by the node and logistics bottlenecks.
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I don't think you're right that Steele's in a pickle, or in a weaker position than he was at the end of Act 2.
I could have worded that better. I didn't really mean Steele's command authority was threatened; I was referring to the overall GTVA war effort...that seems to be in a pickle because of some of the points I made last post.
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Haven't reached that point in the game yet, although the number of destroyers must still be constrained by the node and logistics bottlenecks.
Act-3 spoilies below.
It will be, however Steele was already intending to lose the station, as things are he just lost an extra destroyer and some assets with it, while the UEF gained a logistics outpost, which wasn't intended. However, now he hasn't just gained in assets, but fresh ones from out of the theatre whom have likely benefited from the schooling of pilots taken off the line during the war. The Carthage wasn't even subspace-worthy enough for the node, yet instead Steele has received four times the class-weight of firepower and that's only looking at the Destroyers leading the groups.
With the currently projected plan, Steele doesn't need to operate for months, he's aiming for less than a fortnight before springing the big trap, now I can't say that I'm overly aware of how many days supply a vessel carries, but considering that a modern nuclear submarine tends to operate for ninety days, might we consider that the supplies aboard a starship could last a month? This isn't including the biggest likely constraint in a high-intensity situation which is ammunition however.
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I don't think you're right that Steele's in a pickle, or in a weaker position than he was at the end of Act 2.
I could have worded that better. I didn't really mean Steele's command authority was threatened; I was referring to the overall GTVA war effort...that seems to be in a pickle because of some of the points I made last post.
Again, though, I disagree. I think Steele's position is stronger than it was at the beginning of Act 3. Anyone who's played the Act can probably walk you through why.
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Like Al Da'wa put it, losing the Carthage and Lopez to Steele was just like losing a rook. On the other hand, Laporte was a pawn on the beginning on act 1, and just reached the end of the board at the end of act 3 and switched for a queen, at least for Calder.
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I don't think you're right that Steele's in a pickle, or in a weaker position than he was at the end of Act 2.
I could have worded that better. I didn't really mean Steele's command authority was threatened; I was referring to the overall GTVA war effort...that seems to be in a pickle because of some of the points I made last post.
Again, though, I disagree. I think Steele's position is stronger than it was at the beginning of Act 3. Anyone who's played the Act can probably walk you through why.
In terms of conventional warfare? Almost certainly. He's traded one destroyer group for two, and he's so close to concluding the war that he doesn't really have to worry about the logistical bottleneck brought about by the additional ships and the loss of Neptune.
However, I suspect that losing his source on the Council and his best shot at concrete information on Shambhala is going to be a much bigger loss than securing an extra destroyer was a victory.
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Hm...just a quick run on Google...I like the notion of Shambala being a protective zone...maybe that the vishnans can't maintain their connection to subspace or something crazy like that.
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Hm...just a quick run on Google...I like the notion of Shambala being a protective zone...maybe that the vishnans can't maintain their connection to subspace or something crazy like that.
Well, there is also this little gem about Shambhala in Buddhist teachings.
Shambhala is ruled over by Lord Maitreya. The Kalachakra prophesies that when the world declines into war and greed, and all is lost, the 25th Kalki king will emerge from Shambhala with a huge army to vanquish "Dark Forces" and usher in a worldwide Golden Age. Using calculations from the Kalachakra Tantra, scholars such as Alex Berzin put this date at 2424 AD.
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I don't think you're right that Steele's in a pickle, or in a weaker position than he was at the end of Act 2.
I could have worded that better. I didn't really mean Steele's command authority was threatened; I was referring to the overall GTVA war effort...that seems to be in a pickle because of some of the points I made last post.
Again, though, I disagree. I think Steele's position is stronger than it was at the beginning of Act 3. Anyone who's played the Act can probably walk you through why.
Should he try to retake Neptune before assaulting Earth?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalki Vishnan Apocalypse is a GO!
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Should he try to retake Neptune before assaulting Earth?
No. Steele won't gain anything by it, but he would run the risk of a major fleet battle in an unimportant location again, and he didn't want that earlier, so why would he risk it? He'll have to do something about Calder and his artillery when the attack on Earth comes, but I think the Tevs would be better off keeping ships ready to counter 3rd fleet's counterattack then to try and retake the planet.
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Frankly that whole situation basically freed up a large number of ships for the offensive on Earth. No need to watch over Neptune any more, and the Carthage's replacement was essentially four state of the art battelgroups (replacing one out of date mostly trashed one). If it didn't allow Calder to harass the node the whole thing would frankly be a terrible idea.
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I think the GTVA is well-positioned to beat the UEF military.
But how the hell do they defeat the Shivans or the coming human extinction event? Do they have a plan to deal with Shamballa? Basically, rearranging pieces on the military chess board is fine and well, but the TRUE players in this conflict are playing on a different board entirely. And we don't know enough about the GTVA's one piece on this different board (contingency morpheus) to say for sure if they have any influence at all there.
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Do they have a plan to deal with Shamballa?
If we go by Steele's dialog in Everything is Permitted, the GTVA doesn't have the faintest idea what Shambhala is, let alone a plan to counter it. That said, Steele's hypotheses as to what Shambhala might be were so outlandish that it's difficult to regard them as anything other than feigned ignorance for the benefit of anyone who might have been listening in. :p
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I think the GTVA is well-positioned to beat the UEF military.
Going by the forces stationed in SOL thread...
GTVA have 5 Destroyers - 2 state of the art (Raynor and Titan) and 3 Pre Capella (Hecate)
18 corvettes - 13 Deimos 2 Deomedies 1 Belleropheon 2 Chimera
11 cruisers
UEF have 3 Destroyers
11 Artillery frigates
10 Frigates (11 actually I saved the Serenity ;))
Unknown number of cruisers (probably) 35 plus
This does not look like a strong position for Steele to be launching an assault from, one general rule of war is is you are attacking a prepared enemy then you expect heavy losses. The GTVA are outnumbered in total craft and will be expected to assult fortified positions. Do we have any idea what perimeter defences the UEF have prepared around earth? Not including the fact that Fed artillery and fighter strength remains intact Steele has been unable to bring down a Solaris - these ships can mop the floor with any GTVA destroyer. The best Steele can hope for is that he can ambush one with assault groups of cap ships and hope that the artillery or bomber counter attacks don't tear his forces to shreds.
All in all I think what were looking at is a phyrric victory for the UEF - Steele withdraws with heavy losses to both sides but the Gtva send in another battle group to finish off the weakened Fed forces.
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You're forgetting the ships of the Phoenicia/Vengeance battlegroup. And the Agamemnon/Insuperable battlegroup, a Raynor/Titan pair, which is probably positioned right outside the node in Delta Serpentis, ready to intervene should that be necessary.
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The Phoenicia/Vengeance battlegroup were included in that tally.
The Agamemnon/Insuperable battlegroup would not be able to get throught the node and jump to Earth in time to affect the battle but would probably make up the core of the next battle group to finish of the UEF forces left after the battle.
So like I said phyrric victory for the UEF - Steele withdraws with heavy losses to both sides but the GTVA send in another battle group to finish off the weakened Fed forces.
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So therefore, a phyrric victory for the GTVA in the overall war for Sol is still not out of the question and could be the end result of the war?
I'd be okay with that...as long as the GTVA still wins. :D
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You don't expect Steele do assault Earth without the Agammenon battlegroup do you?
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The Phoenicia/Vengeance battlegroup were included in that tally.
It was? Seems to me you just added the destroyers.
The Agamemnon/Insuperable battlegroup would not be able to get throught the node and jump to Earth in time to affect the battle...
You base this on what? The Agamemnon/Insuperable could probably make the transit in less than a day. GTVA battlegroups are meant to be able to reposition on extremely short notice, and this one is already on alert.
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It was? Seems to me you just added the destroyers.
Before they arrived in system there were 3 GTVA destroyers 4 before the Carthage was lost
these ships make it 5 - as I said I got these figures from the forces deployed in sol thread.
The Agamemnon/Insuperable could probably make the transit in less than a day.
The strike would not last one day, Steele is looking for a lightning strike that will overwhelm the defenders - this means all in. If he was able to bring these reinforcements in for the first battle for Earth he would have.
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Not realy,
Steele is building up pressure for the assault, but maybe what you think is what Steele wants the UEF to think^^
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It was? Seems to me you just added the destroyers.
Before they arrived in system there were 3 GTVA destroyers 4 before the Carthage was lost
these ships make it 5 - as I said I got these figures from the forces deployed in sol thread.
You're missing the smaller ships attendant to the GTVA destroyers, however -- cruisers, corvettes, supply craft, not to mention fresh fresh pilots and munitions. For example, if the new battlegroup has any Anemoi logistics ships with it, the way Bei's 14th Battlegroup did, the UEF is in serious trouble. Nabbing that Anemoi in R1 was such a coup in part because of how few of those ships were in Sol. If Steele can bring in more, that gives him more leeway for large resource-intensive ops, while the UEF has no real way to respond. Each side's fleets can only afford to take so much damage before the fleet would become useless, but the new battlegroup increases the damage the GTVA can deal with; they can repair and restock via the Anemoi, and swap in fresh craft and men from the battlegroup itself.
Much as I prefer the UEF, things look even worse now than they did at the end of R1!
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Steele is looking for a lightning strike that will overwhelm the defenders - this means all in.
He'd end up caught up in a pincer between 1st Fleet in one side and all of 3rd Fleet and everything 2nd Fleet can throw without leaving Mars completely undefended in the other.
Losses would be catastrophic for both sides.
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Steele is looking for a lightning strike that will overwhelm the defenders - this means all in.
He'd end up caught up in a pincer between 1st Fleet in one side and all of 3rd Fleet and everything 2nd Fleet can throw without leaving Mars completely undefended in the other.
Losses would be catastrophic for both sides.
Third fleet is mauled, second fleet is damaged...
I guess the Agamemnon battlegruop has its own hunter/killer group and we all know, what Serkr was/is for a threat...
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Before they arrived in system there were 3 GTVA destroyers 4 before the Carthage was lost
these ships make it 5 - as I said I got these figures from the forces deployed in sol thread.
And apparently you missed Battuta's comment about how the list aeon48m made was incomplete because it was missing the Phoenicia/Vengeance battlegroup. You know, all the corvettes and cruisers that accompany the destroyers.
The strike would not last one day, Steele is looking for a lightning strike that will overwhelm the defenders - this means all in. If he was able to bring these reinforcements in for the first battle for Earth he would have.
And what exactly prevents him from, I don't know, bringing them through before launching the attack?
He didn't have those ships during the Blitz because the Security Council didn't think he needed them. The situation has changed.
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Third fleet is mauled, second fleet is damaged...
3rd Fleet is still capable of engaging in major operations alone, like the taking/destruction of the Carthage.
2nd Fleet, according to Noemi, is just 'bloodied'
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The 'Forces Stationed in Sol' thread is reasonably complete on the UEF side but nowhere near complete on the GTVA side. Lots of smaller warships aren't ever seen or mentioned (yet).
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Third fleet is mauled, second fleet is damaged...
3rd Fleet is still capable of engaging in major operations alone, like the taking/destruction of the Carthage.
2nd Fleet, according to Noemi, is just 'bloodied'
So since all three UEF fleets are at least somewhat of a going concern Jellyfish, which fleet should the GTVA focus on...or should they continue their drive towards Earth?
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The Forces Deployed in the Sol Theater thread is completely missing any new revelations in Act III, since I haven't been able to play it yet, and the entire thing is a fan-made guesswork on the GTVA side.
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General Battuta
First of all I'm loving you guy's work
The 'Forces Stationed in Sol' thread is reasonably complete on the UEF side
As I said in my first post there is no mention of what fortifications or perimeter defences exist around Earth. Do you plan to include any sentry guns - the equivalent of the GTVA's Mjolnir?
Also what fighter/ bomber forces will the UEF be able to deploy from planetside and/or orbital platforms?
(P.S Please do not answer this if it means spoilers for act 4. I don't want any suprises ruined :nervous:)
If the UEF have had time to properly fortify their positions then I believe this will turn the battle decisively in their favour
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And apparently you missed Battuta's comment about how the list aeon48m made was incomplete because it was missing the Phoenicia/Vengeance battlegroup. You know, all the corvettes and cruisers that accompany the destroyers.
Yes i did miss that, as you can probably guess I am new to this forum :sigh: However at the ending cinematic we do not see any new advanced corvettes or cruisers just a couple of Deimos corvettes accompanying 2 Hecates
same with
For example, if the new battlegroup has any Anemoi logistics ships with it
we didn't see any at the end so why assume that they are going to be there? - these are rare and expensive pieces of equipment and Steele needed the help of the vods to replace the one he lost before
And what exactly prevents him from, I don't know, bringing them through before launching the attack?
Calder controls Neptune giving him the opportunity to harass the node. As long as the Fedayeen intelligence network can predict GTVA planning given it is entirely reasonable to assume that signaling these ship to transit will alert the UEF to the attack losing his (believed) element of supprise as well as allowing Calder to intercept these ship as they come out of subspace
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So since all three UEF fleets are at least somewhat of a going concern Jellyfish, which fleet should the GTVA focus on...or should they continue their drive towards Earth?
Everything about act 3 says that Steele is driving towards Earth
his not caring about losing Neptune, bringing in additional ships that he cannot support for more than a couple of weeks, the desperation to stop the secret project
That is why I think he is going to lose the battle - he is attacking before the UEF fleets can be reduced in threat. The artillery is still in place, the destroyers are unscathed and the fighter/bomber core is intact. Every theatre in which the UEF have superiority
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True, but just by sheer weight in numbers and cannon fodder. I don't think the UEF can hold out against multiple Destroyer-class vessels with escorts and fighters. Assuming it is a full out attack. Everything is expendable.
They would definate f**k the GTVA over though, but just by sheer weight in numbers, I don't think they can hold out. But it all depends, the Fedayeen have shown the ability to neutralise anything they wish with pretty much no assests. Removing a few key items from the attack and the UEF will wipe the GTVA hard.
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Keep in mind the UEF still under catastrophic logistic collapse. They may still have a lot of ships, but whether they can still operate at optimal capacity is debatable.
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Most of us think Steele isn't stupid. But driving right for Earth seems to be unadvisable based on this thread.
Are there any reasons why Steele should make a beeline for Earth rather than focusing on the three UEF fleets (at least for a little while longer)? Is there any wisdom to that?
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Just on the military point of view ? He'd be better off just harassing them and waiting for complete logistical collapse.
But however, the sekret project, contingency morpheus, wanting to finish it quickly to be ready to face a potential third incursion, and to calm down the Tev pop, are all potentially major incentives to push the fight forward, even if it implies losses that could have been avoided otherwise.
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Shambhalla, MORPHEUS, and a restless population back home are a perfect storm of circumstances that force Steele to deploy forces for a battle he may not want to fight yet. No doubt Steele wants more time to harry and wear down the UEF fleets before he goes in for the killing blow, but there's a lot of stuff working against that.
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I'm not saying this is what he wants, but hasn't it been said Steele has contingencies for contingencies? Like I said, Steel would probably prefer otherwise but I think he's politically smart enough to guess that circumstances may arise requiring him to try and end the war quicker
He probably has two folders to pull out in regard to his attack on Earth:
Plan A-His preferred option (whatever that may be)
Plan B-A somewhat rushed attack on Earth (that he planned)
I would imagine though that he'd demand extra ships if he was forced to attack Earth sooner than he wanted.
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Which I think is the exact purpose of the Agamemnon/Insuperable battlegroup. The BG is probably going to transit the node just before Steele's strike, then wait there with recharged drives until Steele needs to deploy ships from them as his reserve.
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What I think the GTVA's strategy should be:
* Trust in Steele's skills for now to take Earth and end the war, but monitor his progress from a neutral Vasudan vessel.
* If/when Steele seems to fail or face defeat, communicate with Sol asking for a truce, on the condition they allow the Atreus to limp back home, thus not wasting one of a few Raynors.
* Be strict in setting the conditions for the truce: demanding a GTVA embassy on Earth, the Carthage is returned intact. All data and research on captured beam weaponry are discontinued. Demand that all stealth technology is returned. Demand insight in any recovered technological data from the Lucifer.
* Remind Sol that the GTVA can still strike, but with losses and remind Sol that it cannot maintain a new war.
* Demand a media presence which can communicate with Sol's people to instigate propaganda programs.
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I thought truces had to go both ways, and that sounds like the demands from the winner of a conflict to the loser.
Only way they could compensate is if the GTVA gave the UEF full control of Sol Gate and perhaps even Delta Serpentis.
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I thought truces had to go both ways, and that sounds like the demands from the winner of a conflict to the loser.
Only way they could compensate is if the GTVA gave the UEF full control of Sol Gate and perhaps even Delta Serpentis.
But not if the UEF knows they will lose if they do not agree to an unfair treaty. Once they have tasted peace, they don't want to tire further in war. It allows for rebuilding, drawing new plans, learning to know their enemy better. And since the Vishnans fell quiet, the Elders may hope that embracing peace, any peace may result in the Vishnans talking again. The UEF is being choken and while cramped, they regain some breathing space. It also opens doors for elements of the Fedayeen to strike in GTVA sectors, casting blame on angry GTVA citizens, maybe sparking civil war or hoping that the Vasudans will weight in to make conditions better over time.
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So Sara, you think the GTVA should offer the UEF the same kind of peace that the GTVA offered the Earth Alliance in the "Inferno" campaign?
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But not if the UEF knows they will lose if they do not agree to an unfair treaty.
"Unfair treaty" is just a flourished term for "conditional surrender".
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But only a blunt axe would actually call it conditional surrender, which is bad propaganda and makes the Solarians angry. While if you wrap it up as a treaty (however bad it may actually be for one side), you can atleast try and write it off through propaganda as something positive. Mix that with a new puppet council that cites the necessity of joining up. It's like writing history and saying "we conquered that country" or "we uplifted that country". It's still shaky, GTVA needs to win this war if it can or change entirely.
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So Sara, you think the GTVA should offer the UEF the same kind of peace that the GTVA offered the Earth Alliance in the "Inferno" campaign?
Except the EA started that war, was much more powerful than the UEF, and had far less restraints. The GTVA was right with their demands against them.
Offering the same terms to the UEF is overkill.
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If only the Tev's had a few recovered Shivan ships to hoax an invasion. I wonder how that'd go.
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If only the Tev's had a few recovered Shivan ships to hoax an invasion. I wonder how that'd go.
Ahahah, trollin' Sol ftw!
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Then blow them up, safe the day, snicker behind your fist and tell them "told you so, now lynch your Elders and join us". :P
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That would involve them replicating Shivan beam visuals........
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... and the BEAMSOUNDZ ... in SPACE! :D
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So Sara, you think the GTVA should offer the UEF the same kind of peace that the GTVA offered the Earth Alliance in the "Inferno" campaign?
Except the EA started that war, was much more powerful than the UEF, and had far less restraints. The GTVA was right with their demands against them.
Offering the same terms to the UEF is overkill.
The only specific terms I remember were:
-GTVA gets to keep an observer force in Sol
-GTVA gets to keep control of both sides of the Sol Gate
That doesn't seem all that harsh.
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I concur, thats pretty good terms all considered. Not terms that the GTVA would be able to settle for with their current objectives, but pretty lax.
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I think the GTVA is way beyond such conditions. Not to mention that for most of that they would not even had to start a war.
They want to purge Vishnan Influence. And as it seems this is reason No.1 for the invasion. After all the effort, i doubt the GTVA is going to settle for anything less. Not to mention that they STILL have more ships in reserve.
I am pretty sure that if the GTVA has to, it WILL call in everything and the kitchen sink to crush the UEF. The UEF was struggeling to deal with 4 destroyers and just recently where able to nullifiy one of them. Now we have 2 more confirmed on the way, with more unconfirmed. And this is still not all they got.
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Well the Meridian was the first destroyer dealt with, but that took 18 months and a GTVA risk that didn't pay off. Even that wasn't destroyed in canon, simply neutralized and forced to retreat.
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Wrong. The Requiem was first mauled over in the first months of the war (first battle of Neptune).
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Wrong. The Requiem was first mauled over in the first months of the war (first battle of Neptune).
But not destroyed - and only lost a Deimos escort, while the Federation lost and rebuilt 7 frigates in the same timespan.
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Wrong. The Requiem was first mauled over in the first months of the war (first battle of Neptune).
Ouch. Fatality.
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Wrong. The Requiem was first mauled over in the first months of the war (first battle of Neptune).
But not destroyed - and only lost a Deimos escort, while the Federation lost and rebuilt 7 frigates in the same timespan.
I was under the impression that it was the Meridian that assaulted Neptune, not the Requiem? And that the 3rd Fleet ambushed the Requiem in a separate engagement?
The First Battle of Neptune resulted in the loss of two frigates and four Sanctus cruisers for the UEF, one Deimos and lots of strike craft for the Tevs. A massive close-assault by gunships forced the Meridian to retreat, which is where they lost a Deimos escort.
Third fleet is mauled, second fleet is damaged...
3rd Fleet is still capable of engaging in major operations alone, like the taking/destruction of the Carthage.
2nd Fleet, according to Noemi, is just 'bloodied'
Bloodied was now Noemi described it early in Tenebra, IIRC, which was before Second Fleet lost at least one frigate and more strike craft, along with whatever Phobos Station was.
3rd Fleet isn't even a battlegroup at this point, though it can still do a lot of damage if used in the right place and the right time. At this point they're down to the Toutatis and its strike wings, two Narayanas, possibly a Karuna, one Sanctus, and maybe one Oculus (it might have been 2nd Fleet's Oculus). Quite formidable, yes, but by itself no match for a Tev battlegroup. At this point, if the Toutatis can be tied down by a next-gen destroyer or hunter-killer team, then a Hecate and a couple/few Deimos corvettes could easily overwhelm the remainder.
2nd Fleet is down to, what, the Eris, a few Narayanas, and a few Karunas (on top of however many cruisers and few Oculi it has left)? While quite formidable, it's also going to be facing a numerically superior force with beam cannons and tons of strike craft. It's also lost almost all of its best pilots, and Uriel gunships are scarce. Certainly not a forgone conclusion, but not exactly good odds either. The Tevs also have a lot more AWACS ships than the UEF does, especially when you factor in Aruroras.
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In general, I think the Tevs are better off with a strategy of gradually taking down the UEF fleet frigate by frigate, rather than waging a single massive battle. A war of attrition favors them, and as the numerical and technological superiority continues to shift in their favor, the pace of whittling down the UEF fleets increases. By taking advantage of Byrne's conservatism, they can commit an overwhelming force to destroy a frigate or two in 2nd and 3rd Fleets. Using a highly mobile force like Serkr, Steele could avoid escalation by making retaliation still very risky.
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The first battle of Neptune did not result in the Requiem being pushed out of theater. The Requiem was pushed out of theater on an unrelated engagement several months into the war. Salty is correct in his reasoning, though I think the UEF losses were four frigates, not two.
The Requiem's withdrawal plans to be featured in BP:Tev, and in that respect is entirely removed from First Neptune.
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'Check your six. They can't get in if you don't let them.'
Paraphrased, but mayhaps our Magnificent Bastard has been touched by an angel. :drevil:
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The Requiem's withdrawal plans to be featured in BP:Tev, and in that respect is entirely removed from First Neptune.
That project is still ongoing? I thought it became waporware. Lack of news and all that...
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I concur, thats pretty good terms all considered. Not terms that the GTVA would be able to settle for with their current objectives, but pretty lax.
This is somewhat off topic, but what were the terms the GTVA forced on the Earth Alliance in Inferno? Since we're talking about possible strategies for the GTVA (military and political) maybe there can be some nuggets of wisdom/ideas in there.
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This is somewhat off topic, but what were the terms the GTVA forced on the Earth Alliance in Inferno? Since we're talking about possible strategies for the GTVA (military and political) maybe there can be some nuggets of wisdom/ideas in there.
'Numerous concessions, including uncontested control of the Sol Gate and a permanent GTVA force in system'
That's all it says about that.
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In general, I think the Tevs are better off with a strategy of gradually taking down the UEF fleet frigate by frigate, rather than waging a single massive battle. A war of attrition favors them, and as the numerical and technological superiority continues to shift in their favor, the pace of whittling down the UEF fleets increases. By taking advantage of Byrne's conservatism, they can commit an overwhelming force to destroy a frigate or two in 2nd and 3rd Fleets. Using a highly mobile force like Serkr, Steele could avoid escalation by making retaliation still very risky.
To you and others here:
Should Steele try to make the case that taking out the Solari destroyers would be the best way to have Earth more open for attack? Or would focusing more on "low key" military targets like the frigates be the better military choice?
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War of attrition. If those frigates and destroyers can't perform, they're worth little. Not to mention paranoid, tired, overworked crews.
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Should Steele try to make the case that taking out the Solari destroyers would be the best way to have Earth more open for attack? Or would focusing more on "low key" military targets like the frigates be the better military choice?
The Solari destroyers are more than weapons. They are also centers of command.
You can kill the ants all you like. Take the queen, though, and the hive dies.
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That metaphor sorta works, in that the end result is similar. It would probably be more along the lines of pulling all of the vital organs out of an animal though. They can sorta function for a very brief time if they suddenly have no organs, however they are hosed without all of the functionality they provide.
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Should Steele try to make the case that taking out the Solari destroyers would be the best way to have Earth more open for attack? Or would focusing more on "low key" military targets like the frigates be the better military choice?
The Solari destroyers are more than weapons. They are also centers of command.
You can kill the ants all you like. Take the queen, though, and the hive dies.
Except that they're treated as not at all expendable, so they're put at minimal risk and given lots of protection. Taking one out would be extremely difficult unless you were willing to start a major battle again. Taking out frigates is vastly easier, and each frigate lost leaves each Solaris much more vulnerable and less potent.
Frigates also can't be replaced, especially not at this point in the war. Each one lost is a major blow to the UEF, but they have to be deployed so widely that they're always at risk. The strategic threat of a Solaris actually committing to combat is nowhere near that of, say, Serkr shock-jumping you with enough firepower to obliterate most destroyers in one salvo...and then leaving before you can even hit them back very hard. Steele fears the UEF's bombers the most, and rightfully so--they can be deployed rather flexibly, and a single Durga can often do more damage to a given corvette than a Karuna.
Taking out the frigates means depriving the Solarises and bombers their much-needed support and buffer, drastically reducing their threat potential and figurative durability.
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To settle this grammar debate once and for all:
I have seen both used quite a bit on these forums...is the correct word "Solari" or "Solarises"?
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Solaris destroyers
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It's Solaris Destoryers, not Solari. Same reason we don't say Shivan Sathani and use Sathanas Juggernauts instead.
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Sathanases. Solarises. Deimoses. Sanctuses. Hobbitses.
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Since the GTVA has now "lost" a destroyer, anyone think the UEF will by the end of WIH?
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Given an alpha picture that circled the forums a while ago, I'd say at least one will. Bryne's.
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Given an alpha picture that circled the forums a while ago, I'd say at least one will. Bryne's.
what
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The alpha has so little to do with...anything that I can't imagine getting any useful information from it even if it were completely public.
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Given an alpha picture that circled the forums a while ago, I'd say at least one will. Bryne's.
Why would you guess his destroyer?
Wouldn't it be more likely that if a UEF destroyer gets destroyed by the end of WIH it would be one of the other two admirals'?
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I would guess Calder's or Netreba's destroyer would be more likely to get destroyed since their fleets are more damaged.
With all the reinforcements coming in at the end of Act 3, I'm not out of line in thinking at least one UEF destroyer will be taken out am I?
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Lets do some guesswork.
What do we have:
THe Atreus, Serkr, the Imperieuse, these five assets alone pack a mean punch, if the Agamemnon(another Raynor) and the Insuperable(Titan) are part of the same battlegroup organisation established in BP, they will bring their own hunter/killer group(remember, the 14th had one too).
I don't know how official this is, but Batutta mentioned something about the Phoenicia being something like the Carthage, the two Hecates will most likely have at least 5 or 6 Deimos-class corvettes(the Carthage had five, the Hood/Meridian 6).
So, this excludes the strikecraft.
Tenebra said something about Steele needing a whole bunch of good pilots flying escort, and guess what, the Tevs have this area most likely covvered too, remember the conversation about the Tevs pulling their aces back to train more aces?
Steele knows the danger the UEF bomber corps poses, so he'll make sure his critical assets are covered.
It would be rather sick, but using shock and awe, this sick bastard has enough assets to hunt every single Solaris down, one at a time.
The Imperieuse plays deterrent for the Eris, the Atreus and Serkr assault the Toutatis, while the other sharks wait for the mistake...
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Are the Phoenicia and the rest already in Sol by the end of Tenebra? I'm sure Calder would've given them as hard a time as he could while they traversed the node.
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He'd have a hard time giving them a hard time, given that the node's still fortified.
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THe Phoenicia and Vengance are supposed to be the two Hecates in the ending sequence.
And as Mat said, the node is fortified and the Agamemnon and her battlegroup are not be taken by suprise.
Given that point: Shouldn't AWACs be able to detect something coming out of subspace like a stealth fighter?
"Oh, there was a subspace rupture, but we detect no ship." - "Nah, nevermind, just a spontanus subspace opening."
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Given that point: Shouldn't AWACs be able to detect something coming out of subspace like a stealth fighter?
"Oh, there was a subspace rupture, but we detect no ship." - "Nah, nevermind, just a spontanus subspace opening."
They probably do detect the subspace jump and they also probably know that they are dealing with stealth assets...But where did the fighter go after jumping in is anyone's guess.
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IIRC, the Meredian and Hood were forced out of Sol due to damage in part 1. Was it said how long before they could come back?
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THe Phoenicia and Vengance are supposed to be the two Hecates in the ending sequence.
And as Mat said, the node is fortified and the Agamemnon and her battlegroup are not be taken by suprise.
Given that point: Shouldn't AWACs be able to detect something coming out of subspace like a stealth fighter?
"Oh, there was a subspace rupture, but we detect no ship." - "Nah, nevermind, just a spontanus subspace opening."
Fortified yes, but I'm sure the Feds could squeeze in a raid here and there, even if they end up being mere feints it would help to keep the Tevs on their toes and slow them down just that little bit more. The more assets they have defending and the less they have hammering the Fed's infrastructure the better.
I thought the Hood was still in-system. AFAIK it didn't lose its air wing like the Carthage did, it should be still be a fully effective carrier.
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The Hood's fine. It countered the Eris during Delenda Est.
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Finding out a way to end the Paveway threat would seem wise for the GTVA. That is one hell of a force multiplier. Slammers are good too, but if Paveways were used like Trebuchet strikes... crikey.
Hmmm... now that I think about it, are Paveways even in a mission where you can't argue that enemy point defense screens aren't compromised by a Karuna or some other ECM capable ship? Well played BP team, well played.
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The Hood's fine. It countered the Eris during Delenda Est.
Uh what ? Last time I watched Icarus, the Eris was engaged with Serkr.
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The Hood's fine. It countered the Eris during Delenda Est.
Uh what ? Last time I watched Icarus, the Eris was engaged with Serkr. + Hood?
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Dude, there isn't even a single GTD Hecate reference in the mission file...
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Who guarded Artemis Station?
Maybe thats where the Hoods was or at the node?
But we can agree the ship is still operational.
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Well one of the Tev destroyers must have provided fighter cover for Serkr so it was probably the Hood seeing as the others were all engaged. Not that it really matters anyway of course.
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Fortified yes, but I'm sure the Feds could squeeze in a raid here and there, even if they end up being mere feints it would help to keep the Tevs on their toes and slow them down just that little bit more. The more assets they have defending and the less they have hammering the Fed's infrastructure the better.
Remember that pre-R1 video which included a Vexor-class destroyer engaging two Deimos-class corvettes at a jump node? The Vexor might have been replaced by the Solaris in the meantime, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Maybe we see some greater offensive against the node in Act IV or V.
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The moment the Feds attack the node, Steele will most likely shock jump them.
The Capella-era assets can hold Artemis and so on, while the Atreus, Serkr and the Imperieuse are free to do their dirty work.
Not to mention the Tevs jumping whole squadrons through the node.
Just imagine several dozen of Ares or Herc2s jumping in and unleashing a Treb/maxim strike :nod:
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The Hood's fine. It countered the Eris during Delenda Est.
Uh what ? Last time I watched Icarus, the Eris was engaged with Serkr.
Pawns on a Board of Bone's briefing says the Hood would be countered by the Eris at Neptune. I'd give you the exact quote, but I'm on the wrong computer ATM.
EDIT: Nvm. Delenda Est briefing states that the Hood was under repairs at the time, but not that it had left Sol. No guarantee it was at Neptune, but it's definitely still in Sol, given that it appears in Sunglare.
Who guarded Artemis Station?
Maybe thats where the Hoods was or at the node?
But we can agree the ship is still operational.
Atreus was at Artemis Station, engaged by the Toutatis.
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Finding out a way to end the Paveway threat would seem wise for the GTVA. That is one hell of a force multiplier. Slammers are good too, but if Paveways were used like Trebuchet strikes... crikey.
Hmmm... now that I think about it, are Paveways even in a mission where you can't argue that enemy point defense screens aren't compromised by a Karuna or some other ECM capable ship? Well played BP team, well played.
The Plunder, for one. You hit the Siren's main beams with Paveways well before it even gets within 7 clicks of either Karuna. And the Karunas were focusing all of their ECM on blanket long-range comms jamming.
Even if that were an issue, you've still got the Grimmler (works fairly well in this role) and the Archer.
The Paveway's bigger weakness is how slow it is--it takes so long to reach its target and is rather lacking in maneuverability, so it can miss even in normal usage (and it can be evaded by capships that rotate to 'hide' the sensitive turret/subsystem). Also, Trebuchet outranges the Paveway considerably, so it's not all free shots.
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I thought the Shrike was more frightening than the Paveway...
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I swear only by the Grimler. Completely replaced Slammer, Paveway and Shrike in my book.
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The moment the Feds attack the node, Steele will most likely shock jump them.
The Capella-era assets can hold Artemis and so on, while the Atreus, Serkr and the Imperieuse are free to do their dirty work.
Not to mention the Tevs jumping whole squadrons through the node.
Just imagine several dozen of Ares or Herc2s jumping in and unleashing a Treb/maxim strike :nod:
Shock-jumping is no detterent to fighters and bombers. Tev defences are all geared towards anti-cap, a few raids on the node would help to keep the pressure on and put them on the backfoot. So long as they aren't hitting Fed stations then the Feds can at least consolidate what's left of their shattered infrastructure.
I'm sure it'd be too costly to keep 100% AWACS coverage on the node 24/7, stealth fighters could make a bit of difference.
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That strategy is flawed as was mine with shock jumping.
Keeping the pressure up is fine, but given that in every mission of Tenebra there was an AWACs, well, they failed to detect the Stealthfighters, but every raid on the node will cost them strikecraft and the UEF can't afford that.
But I guess we'll see the fortification of the node in one of the next acts and we all saw how heavily Neptune was defended.
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Based on the ending of Act 3, the Fedayeen may no longer be a reliable UEF asset, since they seem suspicious of the Vishnan influenced council now. They certainly didn't hand over Laporte, claiming she died. Laporte is too filled with rage to do anything but fight tevs in this war, which is why she's based on the Toutatis now. The Fedayeen is a bit more logical. If they decide to regard the Vishnans as a threat, they may find the Tevs are more amendable to whatever plan they have in the works.
What are they going to do when the council asks for Laporte's body?
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Tell them they flushed her body out of an airlock?
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Im sure FS2+ era tech..allows cloning? :nervous: :warp:
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I'm sure FS2 + Era tech allows people to be able to tell when a body is cloned and when it's not, especially considering they will likely be doing an autopsy haha
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Not sure why they would want her body in the first place...
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Not sure why they would want her body in the first place...
As proof.
However, that would require them to actually suspect the fedayeen lying to them in the first place, and dying during the nagari op is rather believable.
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She's a super nagari sensitive individual, who they now know is influenced by something that isn't the force they are in contact with, and is possibly opposed to it. Might they want to discern who/what/why? And if they are told Laporte is dead, the only source they might have for that data is by preforming an autopsy. Maybe there is a clue somewhere in her brain.
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Im sure FS2+ era tech..allows cloning? :nervous: :warp:
In the dreamscape one of the agents tells you that the Greenfly "visitor" is cloned (among other things) so at least the Gaian Effort use cloning. That means the Fedayeen can most likely get their hands on that technology too, if they see the need for it.... assuming they don't have it already.
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No, Greenfly Cell uses cloning. We don't know about the other cells. Kostadin Cell probably doesn't use cloning, for example.
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How long would it take to clone a Noémie of the right age though ? I don't think Greenfly can speed up subject's growth, it sounds like it's just genome tampering.
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Wasn't there something about bioengineering too?
Maybe they create suüper pilots :nono:
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That Greenfly girl did have hand-picked alleles, so no doubt genome alteration is far more advanced in BP than right now, since there's no way we could currently even think of doing that to something as complex as a human.
There is a possibility of some sort of accelerated growth, but that's probably going to result in an useless vegetable at best. Of course, if you need a fast clone to convince the Elders someone really did die, well, there you go.
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As long as the Shivans/Vishnans don't show up elsewhere, it was probably the right idea to send in more destroyers.
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As long as the Shivans/Vishnans don't show up elsewhere, it was probably the right idea to send in more destroyers.
But, you can't be that sure that they won't turn up unexpectedly too...
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Use the Gef idea on a larger scale. Send hundreds of asteroids on a collusion course with Earth. The UEF can't stop them all.
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Use the Gef idea on a larger scale. Send hundreds of asteroids on a collusion course with Earth. The UEF can't stop them all.
Apart from the fact, the Tevs want Earth intact, this would be a massive genocide...
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...and your point is?
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...and your point is?
Wheres the point if the GTVA bombs earth with asteroids?
"We captured earth, but it's no a barren rock with ash clouds"
Great.
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Also, not to mention that propelling asteroids towards Earth through subspace would be apocalyptically inefficient...If the GTVA did want a barren rock with ash clouds in place of their Blue Planet, orbital bombardment would be much more efficient.
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no
they would be fighting people willing to die regardless of the cost because you decided to go and genocidal asshole for no particularly good reason at all
and although they might win, the extermination fleet will be decimated and they will have no industry
but seriously I really hope any of you don't actually believe that's a good idea
i used to hate the UEF somewhat because people in this part of the forum kept saying stuff that confuses me when I was playing, and I basically went "where the hell did this happen?!" and after a while found out that people's perception of the UEF was vastly different to what they were like in the gaem. I despise people's perception of them still however as some people here have really bad perceptions of them in the sense of believing them completely 100% percent perfect and that ububbytu is the path to freedome forever and if you don't think the same you're wrong stuff.
needless to say though I seriously hope you guys don't actually believe that's a good idea
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no
they would be fighting people willing to die regardless of the cost because you decided to go and genocidal asshole for no particularly good reason at all
and although they might win, the extermination fleet will be decimated and they will have no industry
but seriously I really hope any of you don't actually believe that's a good idea
i used to hate the UEF somewhat because people in this part of the forum kept saying stuff that confuses me when I was playing, and I basically went "where the hell did this happen?!" and after a while found out that people's perception of the UEF was vastly different to what they were like in the gaem. I despise people's perception of them still however as some people here have really bad perceptions of them in the sense of believing them completely 100% percent perfect and that ububbytu is the path to freedome forever and if you don't think the same you're wrong stuff.
needless to say though I seriously hope you guys don't actually believe that's a good idea
Umm....No one is actually saying all those things seriously BritishShivans! Its all in good fun!
And also, stop with the "you're wrong stuff" thing please? Although I'm guessing that no one believes that Ubuntu is the path to freedom and is "100%". But, still, people can have opinions different to yours, you know. And that doesn't make them the "wrong stuff".
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As long as the Shivans/Vishnans don't show up elsewhere, it was probably the right idea to send in more destroyers.
But, you can't be that sure that they won't turn up unexpectedly too...
That's why it was a gamble. IF the Shivans/Vishnans don't show up elsewhere or in Sol, then it was a good tactical move.
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And also, stop with the "you're wrong stuff" thing please? Although I'm guessing that no one believes that Ubuntu is the path to freedom and is "100%". But, still, people can have opinions different to yours, you know. And that doesn't make them the "wrong stuff".
i'm not saying that you're wrong
i'm saying that blwoing up earth would be an absolutely horrible thing to do and i really hope you don't actually think it would be nice if that happened
but thankfully it appears that it doesn't
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Whether it would be nice or not is entirely irrelevant to the matter at hand. The GTVA can't blow up Earth because it would be a political suicide. That's all there is to it.
The GTVA does not consider tactical options about whether they're "nice" or not. If blowing Earth up was a sound option, I'm sure they'd do it. But it isn't.
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Hm...just a quick run on Google...I like the notion of Shambala being a protective zone...maybe that the vishnans can't maintain their connection to subspace or something crazy like that.
Well, there is also this little gem about Shambhala in Buddhist teachings.
Shambhala is ruled over by Lord Maitreya. The Kalachakra prophesies that when the world declines into war and greed, and all is lost, the 25th Kalki king will emerge from Shambhala with a huge army to vanquish "Dark Forces" and usher in a worldwide Golden Age. Using calculations from the Kalachakra Tantra, scholars such as Alex Berzin put this date at 2424 AD.
Holy **** that's huge.
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One thing the GTVA (Steele more specifically in this case I suppose) could do to help win the war would be to reveal to the Vasudans that the UEF/Fedayeen is working with Hammer Of Light agents. Khonsu probably wouldn't like that.
This is, of course, assuming GTVI/SOC ever find out about this.
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This is, of course, assuming GTVI/SOC ever find out about this.
That has me thinking - why would SOC need to actually find out about it? Steele just needs to say that they are. There is no one that will question that.
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I thought Steele already knew about it, wasn't there a line in a command briefing (or was it the Dreamscape?) saying that SOC was purging the HoL agents from the Terran fleet (I say Terran because I don't know if this would affect the Vasudan vessels in Sol or not...)
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Yeah, Steele certainly knows about the HoL.
And I thought BP fiction labeled the HoL as some kind of...esoteric sect after the first war, not being a whole underground organisation.
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I thought Steele already knew about it, wasn't there a line in a command briefing (or was it the Dreamscape?) saying that SOC was purging the HoL agents from the Terran fleet (I say Terran because I don't know if this would affect the Vasudan vessels in Sol or not...)
he might not know that they are HOL, just that they are vasudan spies. he's had UEF sympathizers in his own ranks, it would come of no surprise that there would be some in the vasudans' as well. and likely in far larger numbers considering the vasudan society has much in common with the UEF, and the vasudans in general opposed returning to sol.
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And I thought BP fiction labeled the HoL as some kind of...esoteric sect after the first war, not being a whole underground organisation.
Well the whole point of an underground organization is that not any pilot that reads his tech room gets to learn about them :p
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The GTVA does not consider tactical options about whether they're "nice" or not.
Nice is a tactical consideration when you're fighting a war where you don't intend to annihilate your enemy and have to live with them afterwards.
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And I thought BP fiction labeled the HoL as some kind of...esoteric sect after the first war, not being a whole underground organisation.
Well the whole point of an underground organization is that not any pilot that reads his tech room gets to learn about them :p
Fair enough, would be interesting to learn a shadow war going on in the vasudan Medjay.
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This is, of course, assuming GTVI/SOC ever find out about this.
That has me thinking - why would SOC need to actually find out about it? Steele just needs to say that they are. There is no one that will question that.
Could he say: "Vasudan HOL spies are working for the UEF. They're the ones who helped to prevent the ordered self-destruction of Neptune HQ and allowed it to fall into UEF hands"?
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This is, of course, assuming GTVI/SOC ever find out about this.
That has me thinking - why would SOC need to actually find out about it? Steele just needs to say that they are. There is no one that will question that.
Could he say: "Vasudan HOL spies are working for the UEF. They're the ones who helped to prevent the ordered self-destruction of Neptune HQ and allowed it to fall into UEF hands"?
Better yet. If the UEF show the guncam from the assassination of the elder in Act 2, Steele says it was HoL agents flying Terran vessels trying to frame him and create a GTVA civil war.
Maybe they even DID do that, and manipulated some GEF's to do what they wanted - including the Ambush on the Psedjet. I'm sure this has been discussed to death prior to Act three, but I still don't think the ambush of the psedjet makes a lot of sense from Steele's perspective.
What would have happened if the Indus didn't show up? The GEF's would have captured or destroyed the Psedjet, or the Arethusa would have driven them off.
A) What's he planning to do with it? It certainly can never be seen in his hands again - the Vasudans would smell a rat. Would he just give it to them? Why give up a brand new logistics ships to a band of pirates you can just supply yourself anyays?
B) Destroy it? So what? Khonsu finds out that a gang of pirates destroyed one of his ships. It wasn't the UEF, it's unlikely to motivate the Imperium entering the war on the Tev's side. In fact, if anything, he would likely be pissed that Steele didn't properly protect the Psedjet.
C) The Arethusa arrives in time, drives off the GEF's saves the Psedjet. No UEF arrival. What does that gain Steele? A bunch of his mercenaries attack his ally's ship and a bunch of his soldiers drive off the mercenaries he is paying? Again, being attacked by bandits who the AT WAR with the UEF is unlikely to convince Khonsu that the Buntus are the bad guys here.
I can see the motive for the assassination though. That being said, I just don't see the motive or logic for the attack on the psedjet, and never really have. Now that we know about the HoL, how do we know they didn't organize that attack in order to make the UEF look GOOD? In fact, the only group that benefits from a GEF raid on the Psedjet IS the UEF. I smell a Fedayeen/HoL rat - especially since we know Captain Apries was an HoL agent.
Now to the assassination:
A) (Most likely in my opinion): Steele organized it in order to prevent an alliance or peace, this in response to the Psedjet incident, which I still don't think he planned.
B) The HoL/Fedayeen organized it in order to make it LOOK like Steele was trying to assassinate an elder in an attempt to break up the GTVA by implying that Steele has betrayed the Vasudans. It wouldn't be hard to believe that the Fedayeen has some captured Tev Hardware, and they've used GEF mercenaries as well. This kind of operation is right up their alley.
I still think A is more likely, but as a fluid response to the Psedjet incident, rather then a second step to a plan that included the Psedjet. I still don't think Steele had ANYTHING to gain from the psedjet incident. It doesn't make any sense.
Edit--
I guess what I'm saying is there may be more truth to Steele telling the Vasudan Admiral in Sol that there is a plot (to break up the alliance between the Tevs and Zods) than we maybe originally assumed.
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I can see one good reason for the GEF attack on the Presejet.
It's to make the Vasudans realize that even if the UEF doesn't attack them, there are still threads that they need to defend themsefls from in Sol. As a result they send their own warships to provide protection for their logistic vessel, which makes the already unlikely UEF attacks on it even more unlikely and frees up Steele's own ships for other operations.
Also if he manages to fully drag the Vasudans into the war, they already have attackships in place and can immediately participate, rather than having to wait for reinforcements.
If that was his plan, it's possible the GEFs messed up the jamming, allowing the distress call to get out and the UEF was never supposed to interfere in the first place.
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I can see one good reason for the GEF attack on the Presejet.
It's to make the Vasudans realize that even if the UEF doesn't attack them, there are still threads that they need to defend themsefls from in Sol. As a result they send their own warships to provide protection for their logistic vessel, which makes the already unlikely UEF attacks on it even more unlikely and frees up Steele's own ships for other operations.
Also if he manages to fully drag the Vasudans into the war, they already have attackships in place and can immediately participate, rather than having to wait for reinforcements.
If that was his plan, it's possible the GEFs messed up the jamming, allowing the distress call to get out and the UEF was never supposed to interfere in the first place.
Why not just kill it yourself and say the UEF did it? It's not like the Vasudans have other assets in system to investigate the wreckage before it dissipates. SOC jamming and hardware would also be a lot more reliable then the GEFs.
Besides. The GEF's weren't running a destroy op. They were running a capture op. They didn't account for the toughness of Zod marines, nor the arrival of the Indus so they left the nuke behind in the airlock.
A capture op makes no sense (from a Steele orchestrating perspective), since they can't just hand it over to steele like I mentioned above, and why would he want them to have a logistics ship? As mentioned he can supply them fine. And if it was to set up some fancy 'we'll attack the GEF's to get your ship back for you Khonsu' - I somehow don't think Steele's gef mercenaries would take too kindly to getting attacked by Steele.
Edit-
The more I think about it, the more it seems incredibly convenient that the ship carrying Laporte was scrambled to assist a ship that happened to be captained by an HoL spy.
The Fedayeen obviously was keeping an eye on Laporte, (Masayaf, Sunglare). The BP team doesn't do convenience based story telling (or at least thus far they haven't). What was Captain Apries plan for sending that data to Laporte? Hope he ran across her at random? I sense deliberate planning.
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did it say somewhere in act 3 that the HoL were the ones who leaked the psedjet jump schedule (instead of steele as was assumed in act 2), or am i making that up?
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Why would the HoL leak the Presejets jump schedule to the GEF? The UEF only turned up because they caught the distress call, if I'm not mistaken.
I can see one good reason for the GEF attack on the Presejet.
It's to make the Vasudans realize that even if the UEF doesn't attack them, there are still threads that they need to defend themsefls from in Sol. As a result they send their own warships to provide protection for their logistic vessel, which makes the already unlikely UEF attacks on it even more unlikely and frees up Steele's own ships for other operations.
Also if he manages to fully drag the Vasudans into the war, they already have attackships in place and can immediately participate, rather than having to wait for reinforcements.
If that was his plan, it's possible the GEFs messed up the jamming, allowing the distress call to get out and the UEF was never supposed to interfere in the first place.
Why not just kill it yourself and say the UEF did it? It's not like the Vasudans have other assets in system to investigate the wreckage before it dissipates. SOC jamming and hardware would also be a lot more reliable then the GEFs.
Besides. The GEF's weren't running a destroy op. They were running a capture op. They didn't account for the toughness of Zod marines, nor the arrival of the Indus so they left the nuke behind in the airlock.
A capture op makes no sense (from a Steele orchestrating perspective), since they can't just hand it over to steele like I mentioned above, and why would he want them to have a logistics ship? As mentioned he can supply them fine. And if it was to set up some fancy 'we'll attack the GEF's to get your ship back for you Khonsu' - I somehow don't think Steele's gef mercenaries would take too kindly to getting attacked by Steele.
Edit-
The more I think about it, the more it seems incredibly convenient that the ship carrying Laporte was scrambled to assist a ship that happened to be captained by an HoL spy.
The Fedayeen obviously was keeping an eye on Laporte, (Masayaf, Sunglare). The BP team doesn't do convenience based story telling (or at least thus far they haven't). What was Captain Apries plan for sending that data to Laporte? Hope he ran across her at random? I sense deliberate planning.
It seems you midunsterstood what I tried to say.
In my scenario, Steele never meant the GEF to be successfull in either capture or destruction. He meant the GEF to attack the Vasudans so his forces could be the ones to rescue the logistics ship. Getting the Vasudans to guard the Presejet and making then owe him a favour on top.
Considering how comparetively easy the GEF boarders were beaten back, it does make sense that they were set up. Steele knew how formidable Vasudan marines are, so he knew they'd beat back the boarders. And his rescure ship, the Arethusa, was bringing a repair ship with it, to deal with any surprises the GEF might have left behind.
If the UEF hand't turned up, it would have been a perfect and smooth operation. Get attacked by GEF, beat the GEF back, save the Presejet from blowing up, win for Steele on all accounts.
As for the convenience. The HoL themselfs said that they had agents seeded all over Sol and sooner or later they would have found a way to give Laporte the message. To me that doesn't sound like they were actively trying to bring about a meeting, especially not in a way that might blow their cover.
Of course I wouldn't put it beyond the Fedayeen to have bring the whole situation into being, but did the Fedayeen even know about the HoL and them wanting to give ETAK to Laporte, before that fated message was sent?
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Why would the HoL leak the Presejets jump schedule to the GEF? The UEF only turned up because they caught the distress call, if I'm not mistaken.
I was saying that maybe the UEF didn't turn it up by accident - maybe the Fedayeen routed it to them.
Of course I wouldn't put it beyond the Fedayeen to have bring the whole situation into being, but did the Fedayeen even know about the HoL and them wanting to give ETAK to Laporte, before that fated message was sent?
That I don't know - but how did the HoL know Laporte was special?
As for the rest of your analysis, seems solid enough. I still think either could be possible though.
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Better yet. If the UEF show the guncam from the assassination of the elder in Act 2, Steele says it was HoL agents flying Terran vessels trying to frame him and create a GTVA civil war.
All he needs to say is that it was Federation pilots flying the Pegasi SOC allowed the UEF to capture.
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If the UEF could get their hands on a pegasus, there's a good chance they might find out how to circumvent the stealth abilities and thus render both the pegasus and it's vasudan equivalent pretty much useless.
Thus I don't think it would be a good idea to say that the SOC gave the UEF some of those fighters willingly.
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"We allowed a number of Pegasus hulls to fall into their hands intact last year in preparation for an eventuality like this one. The strike element fighters are identical to those craft, down to the serial numbers on individual components. If debris from lost strike elements is recovered on-scene, we can explain it away as components from those ships or fabricated duplicates. Same goes for any Maxim rounds their forensics may collect."
From Conversations from War in Heaven.
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They fell in the hands of Kostadin, not of the Feds.
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And Kostadin is pretending to be allied with the UEF. I'm sure there was an abundance of stealth fighter parts on the Agincourt, as well.
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They fell in the hands of Kostadin, not of the Feds.
"Their" seems to refer to the UEF to me.
Unless you want to tell me SOC was worried about Kostadin forensics collecting Maxim rounds.
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It turns out that simply having access to a stealth technology doesn't mean you can automatically circumvent it (see real life)
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Hence the "good chance" and the lack of "for sure" in my post.
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No offense intended. The fact is though, we know that they had an entire wing to examine. It does not seem to have yielded effective countermeasures.
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If you were in Steele's shoes, what would your mood be like at the end of Tenebra?
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Now that's a good question, CT. I'd guess that he would have two major moods. First, he would be extremely concerned about the events on Tenebra. The Vasudan massacre, the assassination, the perfect attack on the Carthage and the sniping effort at the Jupiter station are signs that the enemy got a lot smarter. Not only smarter, but manipulative. He knows that the lack of obedience from Lopez was seen and exploited. He knows it because he had also seen it. However, he still has the pace and a lot of new firepower. He is focused on the endgame on Earth.
And he may well be able to guess why Laporte stole what she stole in that defense-tower mission.
This is all we can safely speculate. If we sacrifice "safety", we can further speculate why was he so dead on in his Batman gambit with the Wargods? Why had he been so precise and clairvoyant so far? If you notice, you'll see that only the Fedayeen were able to emulate the kind of wider manipulation that Steele pulled off. But the Fedayeen have a shivan-corpse-super computer. Steele is also Nagari sensitive, aware of it and disciplined; The GTI has had ample access to dead Shivans during both great wars. You do the math.
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Now that's a good question, CT. I'd guess that he would have two major moods. First, he would be extremely concerned about the events on Tenebra. The Vasudan massacre, the assassination, the perfect attack on the Carthage and the sniping effort at the Jupiter station are signs that the enemy got a lot smarter. Not only smarter, but manipulative. He knows that the lack of obedience from Lopez was seen and exploited. He knows it because he had also seen it. However, he still has the pace and a lot of new firepower. He is focused on the endgame on Earth.
And he may well be able to guess why Laporte stole what she stole in that defense-tower mission.
This is all we can safely speculate. If we sacrifice "safety", we can further speculate why was he so dead on in his Batman gambit with the Wargods? Why had he been so precise and clairvoyant so far? If you notice, you'll see that only the Fedayeen were able to emulate the kind of wider manipulation that Steele pulled off. But the Fedayeen have a shivan-corpse-super computer. Steele is also Nagari sensitive, aware of it and disciplined; The GTI has had ample access to dead Shivans during both great wars. You do the math.
(http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/imported/2013/01/1336568413511-1.jpg)
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That man faced the Shivans in Capella and he came back changed...
I can see it now: "We're all Steele."
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Remember. Vassago Dirge is also considered BP canon. The pilot did have an encounter with the nagari network, much like Laporte had in UT. I'd place a percentage of more than 10% that BP writers would think it would be cool if this pilot was Steele himself. I only place it to 10% because it is somewhat convoluted, an unnecessary exageration in trying "to fit it all together". But this is a team that finds funny to have the theme of Deus Ex in the intro because it invokes Icarus and then cue to the Indus falling to the sun, so I guess it could be possible.
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I think what we know of Steele's service record in the SSI makes him being the VD pilot a long shot at best.
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The GTVA still knew pretty well what was going on there.
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I think what we know of Steele's service record in the SSI makes him being the VD pilot a long shot at best.
If the Fedayeen can do it, the GTI can surely write up a false identity for Steele. Though with all the check your six, they come in through dreams stuff, I'm tempted to associate him with Kappa 3.
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I think Steele's history is too high-profile for him to have spent the SSI as a grunt. If they wanted a fake identity why have him flying as a decorated SOC ace who transferred to a command post the year after the incursion, when the VD pilot must have spent ages having their brain picked by GTVI?
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If the Fedayeen can do it, the GTI can surely write up a false identity for Steele.
The man commanded a battlegroup before the war. Faking a background for a flag-rank officer is a recipe for disaster and exposure both.
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Wait, which war?
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The war in Sol. Techroom:
Name: Chiwetel Steele.
DOB: 13/07/2340
Education: Tertiary. Studied Bachelor of Battlefield Psychology at 3rd GTVA Officer Academy: Capella. Graduated in Class Number 45 on 5/5/2361. Attended GTVA Space War College to complete Master of Strategic Studies in 2380. Completed an influential treatise regarding the application and design of Allied Destroyers post-Nebula Campaign.
Rank: Admiral. Was fast tracked after exemplary performance during the VEGADEX series of fleet exercises post-Shivan Incursion. Changed occupational specialties in late 2367 after being reclassified Aviation Class: 4 during Operation Astute - 2367.
Alliance Occupational Specialty: Principle Warfare Officer. (AOS-1a)
Postings: 47th Cutthroats - Pilot (2363-2364), 66th Black Knights - Wing Commander (2364-2367), 99th Skulls - Unknown. Presumably pilot (2367-2367) |Undertook Change in Occupational Specialty to AOS-1a| GTCv Bretagne - Executive Officer (2368-2374), GTCv Naxos - Commanding Officer (2375-2379), GTD Aeneas - Executive Officer (2381-2384), GTD Atreus - Commanding Officer (2384-Present), 15th Terran Battlegroup (2384-Present)
Performance Evaluation (Comment Excerpt): Submitted by Admiral Armanjani - Commander GTVA 4th Fleet: [Steele's] highly aggressive and precise nature makes him an interesting corvette skipper within the fleet. He often plays on the psychology of his adversaries, implementing careful ambushes structured around feigned retreats that would earn him the praise of Genghis Khan. The Commodore's aggressive battlefield manner could be attributed to his fighter squadron background, however, he is yet to learn the art of restraint in regards to the pros and cons of overwhelming aggression during the engagement.
Decorations:
NTF Campaign Victory Star (2366)
Epsilon Pegasi Liberation Medal (2366)
Nebula Campaign Victory Star (2367)
Medal of Valor (2367). Citation: Lieutenant Commander Chiwetel Steele distinguished himself by conspicuous gallantry, exemplary leadership and determination during Operation Astute, whilst serving as a Wing Commander with the 99th Special Operations Squadron, 23 March 2367. Whilst carrying out interdiction of Shivan supplies along the MSR, Lieutenant Commander Steele's wing encountered heavy Shivan resistance prior to engaging the mission target. Lieutenant Commander Steele maneuvered his wing into a flanking position and eliminated the bulk of Shivan resistance in a charge towards the target convoy. As the 99th engaged the target, Persevering despite tremendous pain from a combat injury, he continued to engage, providing cover for the attacking pilots. Lieutenant Commander Steele's actions saved the lives of the pilots on the sortie, and directly contributed to the success of the mission.
Allied Defence Citation (2367)
Conclusion: One of the youngest Fleet Admirals in the GTVA, Admiral Chiwetel Steele is a gifted strategist who appears to both despise and revel in the art of war. Tactical acumen combined with a deep understanding of the human psyche makes Steele a highly successful, if unorthodox commander. Personal contact with the Admiral leaves an impression of a well-spoken, mannered but distant personality, with a cool demeanour that gives many of his colleagues unease.
His command of the Atreus has been controversial, and he is often accused of 'mistaking his ship's subspace maneuverability for that of a fighter'. Though his reputation for insanity may be an uncharitable assessment of his command style, he is well known for pushing his ship and crew beyond GTVA regulation parameters. His crew rotations are 33% more frequent than most other destroyers in the fleet. Last audit suggested an increase in measurable fatigue among officers and crew serving on the Atreus, but with a proportional increase in combat effectiveness.
On that note, something's definitely up with this "Operation Astute." The 99th Skulls do not get sent on mere convoy raids. I have a feeling that Steele may have been contacted by the Shivans, too, but in direct contrast to Laporte he's desperately trying to lock them out instead of accepting them.
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TbH it always satisfied me simply to assume that the GTVA has Nagari screening procedures for all its senior officials, and Steele has been flagged and trained to keep his guard up, rather than it being because he's another of ~the chosen ones~.
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The pilot from Vassago's Dirge is definitely not Steele. For mentions PhantomHoover has mentioned and things like being in completely different squadrons.
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TbH it always satisfied me simply to assume that the GTVA has Nagari screening procedures for all its senior officials, and Steele has been flagged and trained to keep his guard up, rather than it being because he's another of ~the chosen ones~.
Then those procedures have catastrophically failed, given that ex-Admiral Bei was so easily turned by the very alien influence the GTVA sent him to Sol to purge.
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Now that's a good question, CT. I'd guess that he would have two major moods. First, he would be extremely concerned about the events on Tenebra. The Vasudan massacre, the assassination, the perfect attack on the Carthage and the sniping effort at the Jupiter station are signs that the enemy got a lot smarter. Not only smarter, but manipulative. He knows that the lack of obedience from Lopez was seen and exploited. He knows it because he had also seen it. However, he still has the pace and a lot of new firepower. He is focused on the endgame on Earth.
And he may well be able to guess why Laporte stole what she stole in that defense-tower mission.
This is all we can safely speculate. If we sacrifice "safety", we can further speculate why was he so dead on in his Batman gambit with the Wargods? Why had he been so precise and clairvoyant so far? If you notice, you'll see that only the Fedayeen were able to emulate the kind of wider manipulation that Steele pulled off. But the Fedayeen have a shivan-corpse-super computer. Steele is also Nagari sensitive, aware of it and disciplined; The GTI has had ample access to dead Shivans during both great wars. You do the math.
So Steele is probably feeling kind of bummed but still has hope?
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What Steele is probably feeling right now is how the GTVA was feeling when they sent Steele to Sol in the first place : they are running out of time (for a ton of reasons), and they have to finish this, now. The Tevs are scared of the sekret project, they are scared of a civil war exploding at home, they are scared that their war in Sol is leaving them defenseless against a Shivan incursion. They are scared about what MORPHEUS implies.
In all that, the few victories caused by the Fedayeen aren't a major cause of concern by themselves, since the Tev still have a major military advantage, both in term of numbers and strategically. What is a matter of concern is that it made them loose precious time, and that's not something they feel they can afford.
Steele is not waging a war against the UEF. He's not even waging a war against the Fedayeen or Al'Dawa. Those are just pieces in his chessboard. The way I see it, what he's fighting, is time.
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If time is the enemy, should the GTVA be going after enemy warships or logistics forces (since it sounds like they may not have time to continue a sustained campaign against both)?
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You do realize that the endgame is mere days away?
There is simply no need to go after the logistic forces(wich they still want intact by the way).
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This is all we can safely speculate. If we sacrifice "safety", we can further speculate why was he so dead on in his Batman gambit with the Wargods? Why had he been so precise and clairvoyant so far? If you notice, you'll see that only the Fedayeen were able to emulate the kind of wider manipulation that Steele pulled off. But the Fedayeen have a shivan-corpse-super computer. Steele is also Nagari sensitive, aware of it and disciplined; The GTI has had ample access to dead Shivans during both great wars. You do the math.
I've been thinking about this point. If the GTVA have access to a shivan corpse super computer, and Steele can use it to guide/predict his plans, then why haven't the GTVA used it to run predictions on their economy, similar to what the UEF has done?
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because they don't care. all else is secondary to fighting the shivans to the GTVA. at least the terran half.
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They should care :) A strong economy means more fighters & warships, i.e. would let them fight the Shivans more effectively (at least for the strategy they are using)
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We don't even know if the UEF modelling computers are Shivan-based; they almost certainly aren't.
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Even if they were it might not work well.
Sol is a confined and fairly unified areas.
Simulations for economic development do squat when you're putting out brushfire rebellions.
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We don't even know if the UEF modelling computers are Shivan-based; they almost certainly aren't.
Why wouldn't they be? The Council of Elders formed the Fedayeen (I think?) They presumably know about CASSANDRA. Why would there be only one shivan corpse available to the old GTI in Sol? Also, the simulations/predictions run by the UEF are amazingly complex, creepily so (from the conversation with the UEF civvies, can't find the thread at the moment). It seems at least plausible that these simulations are being run on another shivan super computer.
Even if they were it might not work well.
Sol is a confined and fairly unified areas.
Simulations for economic development do squat when you're putting out brushfire rebellions.
Would it still not let you find more effective ways of putting out the brushfires? After all, economic depression is at last partly to blame for the many brushfires.
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We don't even know if the UEF modelling computers are Shivan-based; they almost certainly aren't.
Why wouldn't they be? The Council of Elders formed the Fedayeen (I think?) They presumably know about CASSANDRA. Why would there be only one shivan corpse available to the old GTI in Sol? Also, the simulations/predictions run by the UEF are amazingly complex, creepily so (from the conversation with the UEF civvies, can't find the thread at the moment). It seems at least plausible that these simulations are being run on another shivan super computer.
Even if they were it might not work well.
Sol is a confined and fairly unified areas.
Simulations for economic development do squat when you're putting out brushfire rebellions.
Would it still not let you find more effective ways of putting out the brushfires? After all, economic depression is at last partly to blame for the many brushfires.
we DO know the economic models aren't run on shivan corpses. it's stated in the campaign. laporte mentions how CASSANDRA can churn out 30-year projections on the gefs (among many other analyses at the same time) while the enormous supercomputers of the ubuntu government are taxed to the max with 5-year economic projections.
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ah. Oops. Missed that :nervous:
:D
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You assume that the GTVA has not run economic simulations at all - I find that implausible. More probably their starting position economically was worse, and their concentration was not mostly an economic one.
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This is all we can safely speculate. If we sacrifice "safety", we can further speculate why was he so dead on in his Batman gambit with the Wargods? Why had he been so precise and clairvoyant so far? If you notice, you'll see that only the Fedayeen were able to emulate the kind of wider manipulation that Steele pulled off. But the Fedayeen have a shivan-corpse-super computer. Steele is also Nagari sensitive, aware of it and disciplined; The GTI has had ample access to dead Shivans during both great wars. You do the math.
I've been thinking about this point. If the GTVA have access to a shivan corpse super computer, and Steele can use it to guide/predict his plans, then why haven't the GTVA used it to run predictions on their economy, similar to what the UEF has done?
Maybe because of their massive paranoia for everything that is Shivan.
If they are aware that a Shivan corpse can be used like that in the first place, they might consider it too risky, since it might very well leave them open to Shivan "hacking".
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You assume that the GTVA has not run economic simulations at all - I find that implausible. More probably their starting position economically was worse, and their concentration was not mostly an economic one.
well, no, I didn't assume they hadn't run any at all. Rather, that if they'd had access to the level of computational power available in a Shivan corpse, they could have recovered economically far better than they did.
Maybe because of their massive paranoia for everything that is Shivan.
If they are aware that a Shivan corpse can be used like that in the first place, they might consider it too risky, since it might very well leave them open to Shivan "hacking".
Do we know if Thorn and the other analysts are Nagari sensitive? IIRC, Laporte needed the quantum pulse transceiver in order to enter the Nagari network, so perhaps just using the corpse for simulations doesn't have an increased risk of Shivan "hacking". However, I take your point about fear of all-things-Shivan (although you'd hope the GTVA leadership is more rational about it that, say, Admiral Morian)
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The GTVA is still in many ways a frontier society. They don't have the stable, closed system the UEF has that can be modelled so accurately.
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Here's one: the GTVA could promise to share Sol's knowledge on terraforming, to bribe the Vasudans into quickly finishing the war, in return for making Vasuda Prime habitable again. Ofcourse the Vasudans moved past Vasuda Prime, which is why they criticize the Terrans for being obsessed with Sol. So it might backfire.
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uhh i think it's a bit more complex than that sara
mars was fine
vasuda prime was a ****ty planet already that got exterminatus'd
i really don't think there's anyway to actually "restore" it to a point you can live outside of a dome
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You might be right. But it didn't go 'Alderaan' on the Vasudans either. I suspect beam weapons may far more easily sculpt or peel the planet. It'd come down to if Vasuda Prime may hold religious importance to the Vasudans, I'd have to read over those background stories in the tech library.
Ironically, Terraforming is probably a long-term solution to improving colony worlds for the GTVA. But with only a few decades between the first and second Shivan encounter, the mainstray of the GTVA may be more concerned spending resources on building a fleet, rather than terraforming. Experience taught them that the Shivans would be more likely to appear within decades again, rather than in centuries.
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i think vasudan spirituality is such that glassing vasuda prime eliminated all special significance they might assign to it
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You might be right. But it didn't go 'Alderaan' on the Vasudans either. I suspect beam weapons may far more easily sculpt or peel the planet. It'd come down to if Vasuda Prime may hold religious importance to the Vasudans, I'd have to read over those background stories in the tech library.
Ironically, Terraforming is probably a long-term solution to improving colony worlds for the GTVA. But with only a few decades between the first and second Shivan encounter, the mainstray of the GTVA may be more concerned spending resources on building a fleet, rather than terraforming. Experience taught them that the Shivans would be more likely to appear within decades again, rather than in centuries.
The religious/sentimental importance can swing both ways. It might be an incentive to restore the planet, but it might also be considered taboo, for the very same reasons.
Though judging from the Techroom entries I don't think that is really an issue for the Vasudans. Regarding their living space they seem far more pragmatic to me. As long as the GTVA doesn't run short on living space, restoring Vasuda sounds like it's not worth the effort from a purely logical point of view.
Either way I think the GTVA might very well already be able to terraform Vasudan back into a habitable state, if they really put their mind (and ressources) to it.
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They can always use it as a giant crystal ball to predict the future, now that it is 'glassed'. :lol:
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You might be right. But it didn't go 'Alderaan' on the Vasudans either. I suspect beam weapons may far more easily sculpt or peel the planet. It'd come down to if Vasuda Prime may hold religious importance to the Vasudans, I'd have to read over those background stories in the tech library.
Ironically, Terraforming is probably a long-term solution to improving colony worlds for the GTVA. But with only a few decades between the first and second Shivan encounter, the mainstray of the GTVA may be more concerned spending resources on building a fleet, rather than terraforming. Experience taught them that the Shivans would be more likely to appear within decades again, rather than in centuries.
The religious/sentimental importance can swing both ways. It might be an incentive to restore the planet, but it might also be considered taboo, for the very same reasons.
Though judging from the Techroom entries I don't think that is really an issue for the Vasudans. Regarding their living space they seem far more pragmatic to me. As long as the GTVA doesn't run short on living space, restoring Vasuda sounds like it's not worth the effort from a purely logical point of view.
Either way I think the GTVA might very well already be able to terraform Vasudan back into a habitable state, if they really put their mind (and ressources) to it.
I'd point out that Sol has the luxury of a resource-rich system, isolated from external threats for 50 years and colonizing other worlds for even longer, and the "terraformed Eden" of Karen's cabin and other settlements on Mars still can't even be seen from space. I don't think terraforming is that simple.
Also, remember the state of the Earth in the alternate universe--increased tectonic activity, massive volcanoes and nuclear winter. Vasuda Prime is similarly devastated. I doubt anybody would want to go there anymore.
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The terraformed parts of Mars can definitely be seen from space. Open up The Intervention in FRED and check the background if you don't believe me.
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Please refer to this handy guide for the state of martian terraforming (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70168.0)
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I stand corrected. Nevertheless, the fact that a stable, dead planet has only been terraformed to such an extent does not inspire confidence in the GTVA's ability to do the same to an unstable, geologically active one.
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Who says Vasuda is geologically active?
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We don't know for sure, but considering what the Shivan bombardment turned Earth into, in the other universe, it seems likely that the same would have happened to Vasuda prime.
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We don't know for sure, but considering what the Shivan bombardment turned Earth into, in the other universe, it seems likely that the same would have happened to Vasuda prime.
I want to point out that the "other" Earth was probably bombarded by more than a single ship unlike Vasuda Prime (which was only attacked by the lucifer itself if I remember correctly) And with that I doubt Vasuda Prime is as heavily devestated as the Earth we seen in the parallel universe. Though some could say that the Lucifers main firepower and a continued bombardment over serveral hours turns everything to ash.
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Huh. Why would the alternate universe earth have been bombarded by more than the Lucifer ? There is nothing even hinting at that that I know of, and it goes against what we know so far in BP canon (that the Shivans didn't use any other beam-capable warship than the Lucifer during the GW era).
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Well considering the FS1 briefing for Exodus says tha they estimate 4 billion vasudans lost their lives in the attack we can make one of two assumptions:
A) The evacuation effort was SUPER effective. This I consider to be unlikely, considering how tight things were for the PVN/GTA.
B) Vasuda was sparsely populated compared to earth. Considering on earth TODAY we have 7 billion people, and I seriously doubt that the PVN and GTA had the lift capacity to move 3 billion people off Vasuda ahead of the bombardment. And that would only have brought them up to Earth population for 2012. 3 centuries later I expect that Earth was much more densely populated then it is now, necessitating MUCH heavier bombardment then Vasuda Prime did. So I doubt Vasuda prime is nearly as devastated, geologically active or no.
Remember the Vasudan colonization effort was driven by the inhospitable conditions of their planet though, so I don't know if 'restoring' it is really worth it. It was never our Blue Planet ;)
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considering how tight things were for the PVN/GTA.
Things are bad because you can't stop the Lucy. You just blew the **** out of the Eva, there aren't too many Shivan destroyers running around, and so far the Shivans haven't really picked big fights with the Vasudans; most of their approach was through Terran systems.
In other words, the evacuation really could have gone that well.
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considering how tight things were for the PVN/GTA.
Things are bad because you can't stop the Lucy. You just blew the **** out of the Eva, there aren't too many Shivan destroyers running around, and so far the Shivans haven't really picked big fights with the Vasudans; most of their approach was through Terran systems.
In other words, the evacuation really could have gone that well.
Well we know that the Vasudans are doing poorly enough to have their fleet in vega 'decimated' by the Hammer of Light, so just because the Vasudans haven't been in any major actions against he Shivans (that alpha one knows about) doesn't mean they are sitting pretty.
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considering how tight things were for the PVN/GTA.
Things are bad because you can't stop the Lucy. You just blew the **** out of the Eva, there aren't too many Shivan destroyers running around, and so far the Shivans haven't really picked big fights with the Vasudans; most of their approach was through Terran systems.
In other words, the evacuation really could have gone that well.
Well we know that the Vasudans are doing poorly enough to have their fleet in vega 'decimated' by the Hammer of Light, so just because the Vasudans haven't been in any major actions against he Shivans (that alpha one knows about) doesn't mean they are sitting pretty.
Conversely the Hammer of Light was an insurrectionist movement. It's entirely possible that the Vasudans were simply damaged enough to not be combat effective by a bunch of ships suddenly going rogue, and the resulting confusing leading to widespread damage beyond what you'd expect. Also likely that in doing that, there were simply a lot of Vasudan ships that were scattered and being cautious about regrouping.
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Which would make an organized exodus of 3+ BILLION Vasudans a pretty difficult trick to pull off no?
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Which would make an organized exodus of 3+ BILLION Vasudans a pretty difficult trick to pull off no?
Combat ineffective doesn't necessarily mean they couldn't cram a bunch of Vasudans into the hangar bay and tell them to hang on tight. But I have to say that generally FS2 has always been a bit hazy on ship capacities and how hard it is to get people off planet and the like.
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It has (been rather vague). I'd say considering the terrans were helping out extensively with evac efforts however, its likely that they got a good chain going, even if it was terrans organzing/protecting vasudan transports.
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They have a sufficient number of Zods to pull a much better economy and apparently a much more effective and powerful fleet than their terran GTA counterparts. I think that's all we need to know so far.
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They have a sufficient number of Zods to pull a much better economy and apparently a much more effective and powerful fleet than their terran GTA counterparts. I think that's all we need to know so far.
Hardly. We have zero idea what the Zod colonization levels were at prior to the Great War. Allthough again, based on the reason for the colonization efforts I expect they are higher then Terran levels.
About half of the TOTAL Terran population was concentrated on Sol, and the Terran colony worlds may well have been much more sparsely populated and developed then their Vasudan counterparts.
Also their better economy/fleet seem to have a lot more to do with Terran fixation on the Sol portal, as well as the disproportional losses borne by Terran fleet elements in the second incursion, as well as hey you know, the straight up explosion of a Terran system.
There are enough competing factors, and too little information on Vasudan colonization levels to draw any kind of assertion of the population density on Vasuda Prime based on Vasudan economic performance during BP.
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We don't know for sure, but considering what the Shivan bombardment turned Earth into, in the other universe, it seems likely that the same would have happened to Vasuda prime.
I want to point out that the "other" Earth was probably bombarded by more than a single ship unlike Vasuda Prime (which was only attacked by the lucifer itself if I remember correctly) And with that I doubt Vasuda Prime is as heavily devestated as the Earth we seen in the parallel universe. Though some could say that the Lucifers main firepower and a continued bombardment over serveral hours turns everything to ash.
From AoA:
Earth as we knew her is no more. Her proud cities, forests, countless animal species and ecosystems are gone. Our stations and ships, including the 1st Fleet, are nowhere to be found. Instead, a debris field rings our planet, while nothing but scorch marks are all that is left on the ground. By all appearances, our Earth and her colonies throughout the system have suffered the same fate as Vasuda Prime.
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We don't know for sure, but considering what the Shivan bombardment turned Earth into, in the other universe, it seems likely that the same would have happened to Vasuda prime.
I want to point out that the "other" Earth was probably bombarded by more than a single ship unlike Vasuda Prime (which was only attacked by the lucifer itself if I remember correctly) And with that I doubt Vasuda Prime is as heavily devestated as the Earth we seen in the parallel universe. Though some could say that the Lucifers main firepower and a continued bombardment over serveral hours turns everything to ash.
From AoA:
Earth as we knew her is no more. Her proud cities, forests, countless animal species and ecosystems are gone. Our stations and ships, including the 1st Fleet, are nowhere to be found. Instead, a debris field rings our planet, while nothing but scorch marks are all that is left on the ground. By all appearances, our Earth and her colonies throughout the system have suffered the same fate as Vasuda Prime.
Which could mean anything from 'exact replica' to 'also got roflpwned by shivans'
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They have a sufficient number of Zods to pull a much better economy and apparently a much more effective and powerful fleet than their terran GTA counterparts. I think that's all we need to know so far.
Hardly.
What do you mean "hardly"? Give me a reason I should bother so much about the past effective events on Zod worlds? All I care is that they have, for a variety of undisclosed (and probably unimportant) and disclosed factors, a much wealthier and powerful economy and war machine. The only important factors we should focus on is the (1) Vasudan mindset (which allowed them to move on) and (2) their focus on rebuilding their economy and war machine instead of a white elephant project like the Sol Gate. Does it matter really how many billions survived Vasuda Prime? Really.
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My apologies Luis, I read your 'all we need to know' as saying they evidently evacuated a lot of people rather then it simply being an unimportant consideration.
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A while back there was a thread on here about the range of possibilities about how WIH could end.
What is the most realistic best-case scenario for the GTVA? Is a non-pyric victory possible?
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Since it looks like there's a possibility of Shivans/Vishnans intervening, is there any hope for the GTVA if/when Byrne dials 1-800-VISHNAN?
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Man, you are really keyed up about the GTVA's chances, given that all current evidence points to an overwhelming military victory on their part.
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But that could basically go out the window in an instant if the Vishnans or Shivans make an appearance in WIH as many are speculating.
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Man, you are really keyed up about the GTVA's chances, given that all current evidence points to an overwhelming military victory on their part.
*Military* victory. It would be right up the Federation's alley to play things out in a way in which the *military* victory is less significant than the other aspects--the cultural, political, or fantastical (i.e., Nagari and Shambala). That, and GTA's growing problem is that they're struggling to beat a Federation that they've claimed is so weak and unable to adapt that its mere survival would fatally compromise humanity's security against the Shivans. If you have to resort to bringing in a huge portion of your forces to overwhelm the enemy with sheer numbers (not because of a qualitative disadvantage, but because it would take far too long and be too risky otherwise), maybe their adaptability and military strength isn't nearly as weak as you've been led to believe.
The Tevs--and the Alliance--are extremely powerful, but they have a number of deep, growing cracks that, if hit with the right angle and force, could break the Alliance apart. The Tevs seek to quickly crush the UEF before those cracks grow further, all the while preventing the existing cracks from being struck. The UEF seeks to strike those cracks and wear at them, and buy time for them to continue to do so.
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Man, you are really keyed up about the GTVA's chances, given that all current evidence points to an overwhelming military victory on their part.
that's what's called 'tempting fate'
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I apologize if people think I'm posting too much.
Yes, I know the GTVA 'currently' holds a military advantage. I started this thread after the first WIH release. At the end of Tenebra it looks like supernatural intervention may not be out of the question, that's why I asked what I did. I wasn't trying to be a GTVA fanboy, but this is a thread meant to be on what the GTVA can do to win so I didn't think I was out of line.
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Supernatural intervention is totally out of the question.
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:/ You know what he means.
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Supernatural intervention is totally out of the question.
That sucks I wanted vampires (how else could the elders have lived so long? :nervous:)
Maybe Steele to come back as a space zombie in BP3 as well.. ;)
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Shivans are zombies or at least zimbos.
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I have to admit, an all-in attack on Earth seems...unnecessarily risky to me.
Bringing in just the first two destroyer groups, an attack on Mars seems like a much safer bet. Byrne would be very hesitant to commit much force to defend just Mars, allowing Second and Third Fleet to be whittled down significantly in a short time. Then, rotate out the two destroyer groups, and bring the other two in to finish the job with the grand battle at Earth.
With the Hecate destroyers, put their main advantages to bear on suppressing UEF fighter dominance while countering the UEF bomber corps. Trebuchet spam from Herc's, lots of Perseus fighters (also with a bank of Trebs each), flying in close proximity to allied warships.
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i think most people greatly overestimate trebs. they aren't automatic kills. they're not even particularly likely kills, except maybe against bombers (that the UEF doesn't frequently field, and almost certainly not in a fashion that would be vulnerable to a dedicated treb strike). fighters can rather easily dodge them. if there's cover (and the pilots aren't idiots), there is ZERO chance of a kill.
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As an armchair deep space tactician, I would envision treb spam to be used more frequently for the purpose of disarming capital ships. I suppose you could fire trebs at fighters on purpose in order to force them to dodge the trebs, or take cover, all of that being a distraction while your bombers move in for the kill.
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i think most people greatly overestimate trebs. they aren't automatic kills. they're not even particularly likely kills, except maybe against bombers (that the UEF doesn't frequently field, and almost certainly not in a fashion that would be vulnerable to a dedicated treb strike). fighters can rather easily dodge them. if there's cover (and the pilots aren't idiots), there is ZERO chance of a kill.
Trebs aren't a guaranteed kill by any means, no, but they ARE a gauranteed harassment and standoff tool. Providing fighter cover is difficult when you have to dodge staggered Treb shots at the same time. Similarly, Trebs being present all over in the battlefield means that whenever a bomber IS deployed, it's got to deal with the major threat of Treb spam.
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As far as spam against warships, Trebs are decent, but far less effective against Federation warships than on Tev warships (especially the Capellan era ones). Still, correctly applied, you can reliably snipe one or two of a Karuna's torpedo launchers without too much trouble. Picking away at the point defenses also helps, though I think going for the engines is probably a more effective tactic (damage its tactical capabilities, and potentially strand the ship where it is--serving as a possible lure for other warships, etc.).
Also, remember that an increasing number of UEF pilots are fresh meat--so the Trebuchet would probably do better than you might think as an anti-fighter weapon.
Honestly, in most circumstances I'd think a couple wings of Artemis bombers would be much more threatening when armed with tons of Trebuchets rather than Cyclops. Reasoning being that it provides consistent anti-subsystem capability, stretches enemy fighter cover very thinly (five kilometers in any direction, simultaneously...), and deals more reliable (if less overall) hull damage over time. Trebs can also be dumbfired up close, in the odd circumstance where that'd be useful over normal firing from kilometers away.
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:/ You know what he means.
My apologies, I meant Vishnan/Shivan intervention. I'll be sure to use the right terminology from now on.
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i think most people greatly overestimate trebs. they aren't automatic kills. they're not even particularly likely kills, except maybe against bombers (that the UEF doesn't frequently field, and almost certainly not in a fashion that would be vulnerable to a dedicated treb strike). fighters can rather easily dodge them. if there's cover (and the pilots aren't idiots), there is ZERO chance of a kill.
Trebs aren't a guaranteed kill by any means, no, but they ARE a gauranteed harassment and standoff tool. Providing fighter cover is difficult when you have to dodge staggered Treb shots at the same time. Similarly, Trebs being present all over in the battlefield means that whenever a bomber IS deployed, it's got to deal with the major threat of Treb spam.
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As far as spam against warships, Trebs are decent, but far less effective against Federation warships than on Tev warships (especially the Capellan era ones). Still, correctly applied, you can reliably snipe one or two of a Karuna's torpedo launchers without too much trouble. Picking away at the point defenses also helps, though I think going for the engines is probably a more effective tactic (damage its tactical capabilities, and potentially strand the ship where it is--serving as a possible lure for other warships, etc.).
Also, remember that an increasing number of UEF pilots are fresh meat--so the Trebuchet would probably do better than you might think as an anti-fighter weapon.
Honestly, in most circumstances I'd think a couple wings of Artemis bombers would be much more threatening when armed with tons of Trebuchets rather than Cyclops. Reasoning being that it provides consistent anti-subsystem capability, stretches enemy fighter cover very thinly (five kilometers in any direction, simultaneously...), and deals more reliable (if less overall) hull damage over time. Trebs can also be dumbfired up close, in the odd circumstance where that'd be useful over normal firing from kilometers away.
Trebuchets are perfectly capable of wearing down and eventually destroying capital ships, but it takes a ****load of them to accomplish this and BP's adaptive armor makes them less useful against subsystems than the table files suggest. On the other hand, Cyclops-toting Artemis have an unfortunate tendency to get torn apart by Kents and anti-fighter turrets, so that tactic may have some merit.
Ursas would probably be a better choice, though, having much larger secondary bays and a turret. They'd still be even worse at dogfighting than the Artemis, but at those ranges maneuverability isn't so important.
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Ursas are extremely expensive to produce and maintain, especially the latter, and their survival rate wouldn't be anywhere near high enough to justify using them in place of the Artemis.
The losses of bombers and (most importantly) pilots during bomber strikes is a problem for the Tevs, but Ursas aren't the solution. And until a definitive solution is found (things like SSMs are good steps in that direction, but are still too expensive and too difficult to set up), Artemis strikes will remain a necessary part of the Tev doctrine.
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Ursas are extremely expensive to produce and maintain, especially the latter, and their survival rate wouldn't be anywhere near high enough to justify using them in place of the Artemis.
The losses of bombers and (most importantly) pilots during bomber strikes is a problem for the Tevs, but Ursas aren't the solution. And until a definitive solution is found (things like SSMs are good steps in that direction, but are still too expensive and too difficult to set up), Artemis strikes will remain a necessary part of the Tev doctrine.
What the GTVA really needs is a bomber-mounted beam cannon or mass driver. Anti-warship primaries are what separate the UEF's bombers from the GTVA's ineffective* redshirts.
*Individually speaking, of course.
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The GTVA have a bomber-mounted mass driver weapon. It is called the Maxim. Sure, it can't take down shields or capital hulls, but it can certainly defang Karunas, shred Oculus AWACS platforms, and ruin the days of Sanctus captains everywhere.
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The Maxim has nowhere near the firepower of a Redeemer or Vajira. It's good for destroying turrets and gradually bringing down cruisers, but that's about it.
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Redeemer rounds have incredibly expensive antimatter cores and the Vajra is mounted on a platform that's twice the size of an Ursa, so neither of those weapons can be deployed in anything other than small numbers, and any spaceframe losses are incredibly hard to replenish. On the other hand entire squadrons of Artemis bombers can easily be deployed with quad Maxims and unless there are extreme losses one could easily class them as "acceptable".
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The GTVA uses antimatter too, and if warhead sizes are anything to go by they're much more efficient about it than the UEF. It's not hard to imagine GTVA mass drivers doing comparable damage for far less resources.
Bomber-mounted beam cannons might also be possible, although they'd probably drain a huge amount of energy.
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And said anti-warship cannon would be highly specialized and no doubt tied to a single class of spaceframe, and would have intense logistics requirements, and would be expensive and most likely carried by an expensive and large spacecraft, so all of those are good reasons not to use anti-capital cannons, not when they have Cyclops torpedoes which are very compatible with existing spaceframes and the Tevs can throw enough bombers in the air to do massive Cyclops launches while Maxims go shred subsystems. The Maxim in fact appears so ammo-efficient that pilots aren't told how many Maxim rounds they have left, so I'm going to assume they carry more than enough for any mission of reasonable duration. The Tevs can also deploy Maxims in quantities the UEF can't even do a fraction of with their Redeemer and Vajra cannons, so I'm going to say the Maxim is overall the superior weapon for Tev tactical doctrine of ease of logistics and large quantities of high-endurance spaceframes.
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And said anti-warship cannon would be highly specialized and no doubt tied to a single class of spaceframe, and would have intense logistics requirements, and would be expensive and most likely carried by an expensive and large spacecraft, so all of those are good reasons not to use anti-capital cannons, not when they have Cyclops torpedoes which are very compatible with existing spaceframes and the Tevs can throw enough bombers in the air to do massive Cyclops launches while Maxims go shred subsystems. The Maxim in fact appears so ammo-efficient that pilots aren't told how many Maxim rounds they have left, so I'm going to assume they carry more than enough for any mission of reasonable duration. The Tevs can also deploy Maxims in quantities the UEF can't even do a fraction of with their Redeemer and Vajra cannons, so I'm going to say the Maxim is overall the superior weapon for Tev tactical doctrine of ease of logistics and large quantities of high-endurance spaceframes.
While the huge volume of plasma they expel would suggest otherwise, beams are actually much efficient than UEF-issue railguns and torpedoes (some of which can be mounted on ships as small as the Durga).
I think it's safe to assume that some of this comes from superior GTVA engineering, considering that two Cyclops deal as much damage as four Apocalypse#Solaris while occupying much less physical space. Similarly, a Supernova has nearly as much power and range as four of them yet is still much smaller.
It would be unwise for the GTVA to adopt the Redeemer, but they could likely make another mass driver with nearly equal power and far greater efficiency.
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In broad terms GTVA engineering is not up to UEF standards and cannot achieve the same performance.
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Though it depends on the specific domain.
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In broad terms GTVA engineering is not up to UEF standards and cannot achieve the same performance.
The UEF excels in the area of point-defenses and strikecraft technology, but the GTVA is obviously much better at designing efficient and powerful anti-warship weaponry.
I have no doubt that the UEF's engineering is superior in many respects, but the GTVA is far, far better at specific things.
EDIT: Actually their fighters are a mixed bag because while they are more powerful they also have much lower endurance.
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Thanks for the update dude, I might have forgotten. :p
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considering that two Cyclops deal as much damage as four Apocalypse#Solaris while occupying much less physical space.
Cyclops also has less than a third of the range. Fuel takes space.
Similarly, a Supernova has nearly as much power and range as four of them yet is still much smaller.
Titans can't fire twelve of them every twenty secs.
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Titans can't fire twelve of them every twenty secs.
Seems more like an issue with the launcher than with the torpedo itself.
Actually their fighters are a mixed bag because while they are more powerful they also have much lower endurance.
UEF fighters aren't really better than TEI Wave 2 fighters.
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Titans can't fire twelve of them every twenty secs.
Seems more like an issue with the launcher than with the torpedo itself.
Indeed.
Actually their fighters are a mixed bag because while they are more powerful they also have much lower endurance.
UEF fighters aren't really better than TEI Wave 2 fighters.
However, they are much better (in terms of sheer speed and power) than the GTVA's older and more common designs. With its current stats the Izra'il also surpasses the Nyx in that regard.
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We know that the TEI wave 2 fighters are brand new and state of the art and yet they are pretty equal to the UEF fighters.
But how old are the UEF fighter designs?
And since they were produced during peacetimes, are they really the absolute best the UEF can build? As the wartime configuarions of the Sanctus and Narayana and the Karuna MK2 show, the UEF capital ships have room to be improved, even without a full re-design. Is it the same for the strikecraft?
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So far we only see the Izra'il in action in just one mission (Her Finest Hour), and they only arrive once you have done most of the mission and there are hardly anymore enemy fighters around, so many would probably miss them. 10 racks of Sidhe will definitely ruin all but the toughest fighters. Also another unique UEF weapon is the Archer which will easily knock out a Chimera out of the game.
The Apocalypse is a torpedo, the Cyclops is a bomb, so they are not exactly equal. The techroom suggest that torpedoes are designed with range and speed in mind instead of warhead yield. The UEF's Cyclops is the Jackhammer which is more powerful, then there is also the Sledgehammer which is even more powerful than the Helios.
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The Izra also appears in Icarus, in a wing with some vahrjadaharas.
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Each side seems to get something new each release. Do you think the GTVA will introduce anything new in the next/final WIH release?
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Well, at the very least the Tevs still have to properly introduce the Draco.
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However, they are much better (in terms of sheer speed and power) than the GTVA's older and more common designs. With its current stats the Izra'il also surpasses the Nyx in that regard.
I wouldn't draw any conclusions from the Izra'il's tables until it genuinely appears in a mission.
Each side seems to get something new each release. Do you think the GTVA will introduce anything new in the next/final WIH release?
Like Matth said, we haven't fought any Dracos yet...
We know that the TEI wave 2 fighters are brand new and state of the art and yet they are pretty equal to the UEF fighters.
But how old are the UEF fighter designs?
And since they were produced during peacetimes, are they really the absolute best the UEF can build? As the wartime configuarions of the Sanctus and Narayana and the Karuna MK2 show, the UEF capital ships have room to be improved, even without a full re-design. Is it the same for the strikecraft?
I assume that the Kent is a fairly recent design, and so were the Rapier and Dart. First Fleet is notably hesitant about incorporating upgrades, which is why I think they don't use those all that often. They stick with the tried and true Uhlan and older weapons that have been proven to be dependable. My guess would be that the Uhlan is about as old as the Perseus. The Kent's a bit older than the Wave 2 fighters, and was quickly pushed into large-scale production when the war started. Remember its technical issues?
Also note that upgrading fighters doesn't seem to be as easy as upgrading warships. Not very many fighters have upgraded versions in either BP or FS2 itself.
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So far we only see the Izra'il in action in just one mission (Her Finest Hour), and they only arrive once you have done most of the mission and there are hardly anymore enemy fighters around, so many would probably miss them. 10 racks of Sidhe will definitely ruin all but the toughest fighters. Also another unique UEF weapon is the Archer which will easily knock out a Chimera out of the game.
The Apocalypse is a torpedo, the Cyclops is a bomb, so they are not exactly equal. The techroom suggest that torpedoes are designed with range and speed in mind instead of warhead yield. The UEF's Cyclops is the Jackhammer which is more powerful, then there is also the Sledgehammer which is even more powerful than the Helios.
The Cyclops and Jackhammer have been called torpedoes and bombs, suggesting that the terms are interchangeable.
Surprisingly the Sledgehammer deals less sustained damage than the Jackhammer (which is even with the Helios and Warhammer).
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The Cyclops and Jackhammer have been called torpedoes and bombs, suggesting that the terms are interchangeable.
In BP canon, torpedoes are long-range warheads, that sacrifice warhead size for more fuel, enabling longer range. The longer range is a tactical requirement for warship-mounted launchers, as big ships don't all that often have the occasion to go into knife range of their target. Bombs are more powerful, but require going much closer to your target to be efficient, which is why we have bombers to deliver them.
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I think that's the general tendency in the definitions, at least, but 'torpedo' hasn't been used rigorously. A Cyclops is a bomb, a torpedo, and a missile!
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Back to business, one part that the UEF have an advantage of is that Jackhammers can be loaded into heavy fighters, so they have an edge there in term of adaptability. Sledgehammers can only be carried by bombers just like the Helios is. UEF bombers are also better because while their bomb bays are reloading, they can continue to pummel enemy capships with their Redeemer and Vajra primaries.
In term of use, torpedoes are meant to deliver more sustained damage while bombs are meant to deliver large amount of burst damage. Also take note of the different doctrines of torpedo use by the UEF and GTVA. The UEF uses torpedoes both as one of their primary means of damage dealing and to suppress enemy point defenses, allowing their gunships and bombers to close in and do their things to the enemy vessel (disabling, disarming, knock out a subsystem, or just plain damaging it). The GTVA on the other hand uses torpedoes more as a tactical option, such as for subspace SSM strikes, and they are only carried by their largest ships. It also helps to compensate for the blind spots on their ships.
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I think that's the general tendency in the definitions, at least, but 'torpedo' hasn't been used rigorously. A Cyclops is a bomb, a torpedo, and a missile!
Cyclops is a bomb, not a torpedo. End of story. Stop trying to confuse people, that's mean.
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Back to business, one part that the UEF have an advantage of is that Jackhammers can be loaded into heavy fighters, so they have an edge there in term of adaptability. Sledgehammers can only be carried by bombers just like the Helios is. UEF bombers are also better because while their bomb bays are reloading, they can continue to pummel enemy capships with their Redeemer and Vajra primaries.
On the other hand, GTVA heavy bombers are capable of carrying more banks of heavy bombs than the UEF ones. In an all-bomb loadout, a Durga carries 12 Jackhammers (I don't think it can even carry Sledgehammers), but a Boanerges carries 9 Helios or 17 Cyclops while being much cheaper.
I'm not saying the Boanerges is better, but it's not bad at all in comparison.
The GTVA doesn't need Redeemers. Terran bomber doctrine has heavy bombers deployed mainly to destroy Sathanas beam cannons in preparation for a capship strike. A Time for Heroes is pretty much a textbook example. GTVA bombers don't need primaries bigger than Maxims because destroying big capital ships isn't their job. Disarming them is.
Also, the UEF gunships are the size of an Artemis. They're not just heavy fighters. The Nyx is less than half their size.
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In an all-bomb loadout, a Durga carries 12 Jackhammers (I don't think it can even carry Sledgehammers), but a Boanerges carries 9 Helios or 17 Cyclops while being much cheaper.
I just checked, as of the current iteration, the Durga can carry two Sledgehammers (secondary bank 3). the Vajradhara can carry four (the bay doors in bank 4), the Lapith can carry one.
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Does it really matter all that much how many bombs a bomber can carry, when they rarely survive long enough to fire more than one doubleshot per bay, if even that long?
Letting them unload one volley of bombs and then jump out, like they do with the treb-striking Ares, would be a much smarter way to use them in my opinion.
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Back to business, one part that the UEF have an advantage of is that Jackhammers can be loaded into heavy fighters, so they have an edge there in term of adaptability. Sledgehammers can only be carried by bombers just like the Helios is. UEF bombers are also better because while their bomb bays are reloading, they can continue to pummel enemy capships with their Redeemer and Vajra primaries.
On the other hand, GTVA heavy bombers are capable of carrying more banks of heavy bombs than the UEF ones. In an all-bomb loadout, a Durga carries 12 Jackhammers (I don't think it can even carry Sledgehammers), but a Boanerges carries 9 Helios or 17 Cyclops while being much cheaper.
Yes, but as Norbert pointed out payload doesn't mean anything unless the bomber can survive long enough to use it up. And besides, bombs can be shot down. Redeemer rounds can't.
I'm not saying the Boanerges is better, but it's not bad at all in comparison.
Sure, If you factor in its much lower cost.
The GTVA doesn't need Redeemers. Terran bomber doctrine has heavy bombers deployed mainly to destroy Sathanas beam cannons in preparation for a capship strike. A Time for Heroes is pretty much a textbook example. GTVA bombers don't need primaries bigger than Maxims because destroying big capital ships isn't their job. Disarming them is.
No, they don't need Redeemers. However, they could use an similar railgun (or perhaps beam) that doesn't use expensive antimatter. As their Cyclops torpedoes show, the GTVA is perfectly capable of making powerful thermonuclear warheads*, even if they aren't as strong as the UEF's Jackhammer.
As I said before, primaries have a huge advantage because they can't be shot down. Given enough sustained hull and subsystem damage, they could entirely replace torpedoes.
*Assuming I haven't missed some obscure footnote in some mission briefing somewhere.
Also, the UEF gunships are the size of an Artemis. They're not just heavy fighters. The Nyx is less than half their size.
Yeah, I always found that interesting. The Uriel and the Izra'il (particularly the latter) are basically bombers with unusual amounts of primary firepower and maneuverability.
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What does a Redeemer equivalent give GTVA bombers that a couple more Maxims doesn't give them, in light of those bombers' intended purpose? Redeemer equivalent adds new logistical concerns, but unlike most of the GTVA's other weapons, it wouldn't be modular enough to be used on anything other than the ships made to use it.
You want to help bombers survive longer? Give them more speed, give them turrets, or give them maneuverability and another bank for an anti-fighter weapon. Terran bombers don't need to be like UEF bombers. Redeemer-equivalents don't help them do their task enough to make the downsides worth it. If they build a new heavy bomber to replace the Boa, they're better off just making it capable of carrying more Maxims, giving it better engines, and giving it 3 or 4 turrets.
The Vasudans might make one, but the Terrans don't need it.
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What does a Redeemer equivalent give GTVA bombers that a couple more Maxims doesn't give them, in light of those bombers' intended purpose?
The Maxim deals plenty of hull and subsystem damage, but it can't destroy capital ships. A weapon that solved that problem (Redeemer equivalent) would give the GTVA a powerful anti-capital weapon that could be fired outside the range of turret defenses without being shot down mid-flight.
Redeemer equivalent adds new logistical concerns, but unlike most of the GTVA's other weapons, it wouldn't be modular enough to be used on anything other than the ships made to use it.
I fail to see why it couldn't be mounted on things like the Boanerges and Artemis, but whatever. It would still be worth it.
You want to help bombers survive longer? Give them more speed, give them turrets, or give them maneuverability and another bank for an anti-fighter weapon.
Those are viable options. As is giving them a weapon that doesn't require them to put themselves within the range of enemy point-defenses.
Terran bombers don't need to be like UEF bombers. Redeemer-equivalents don't help them do their task enough to make the downsides worth it. If they build a new heavy bomber to replace the Boa, they're better off just making it capable of carrying more Maxims, giving it better engines, and giving it 3 or 4 turrets.
The Vasudans might make one, but the Terrans don't need it.
They're better off giving it a primary weapon that can actually take down corvettes and destroyers. No amount of Maxims can accomplish that task.
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Yeah, but as Aesaar said, Terran doctrine has warships delivering the killing blow to enemy capships. Bombers are designed to disable/cripple, not destroy.
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Yeah, but as Aesaar said, Terran doctrine has warships delivering the killing blow to enemy capships. Bombers are designed to disable/cripple, not destroy.
It's still important for bombers to be able to destroy them when allied warships can't get to them. Otherwise you have the possibility of a damaged enemy corvette fleeing and surviving because no warships can chase it down and no strikecraft can finish it off.
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Despite not being optimised for it, I'm sure Terran bombers can still "finish off" capships (which presumably are already damaged/crippled). E.g. HFH & the Serenity, which is toast unless you (or your wingmen) intervene.
Also, Shivans (which are probably the enemy that Terran doctrine is mostly based around) don't exactly flee very often.
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Despite not being optimised for it, I'm sure Terran bombers can still "finish off" capships (which presumably are already damaged/crippled). E.g. HFH & the Serenity, which is toast unless you (or your wingmen) intervene.
Of course. I was just pointing out why the Maxim's inability to destroy capships is a serious flaw.
Also, Shivans (which are probably the enemy that Terran doctrine is mostly based around) don't exactly flee very often.
The Shivans constantly switch up their tactics. In a hypothetical Third Great War they might care a lot more about the preservation of their warships.
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The Shivans constantly switch up their tactics. In a hypothetical Third Great War they might care a lot more about the preservation of their warships.
Does the GTVA know this?
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And do they actually change up their tactics that much? We don't really know that.
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It's still important for bombers to be able to destroy them when allied warships can't get to them. Otherwise you have the possibility of a damaged enemy corvette fleeing and surviving because no warships can chase it down and no strikecraft can finish it off.
And that's what bombs are for. Oh, they can be intercepted, sure, but they still work pretty reliably. I'll remind you that the UEF don't use Redeemers to deliver killing blows either, hence why they still carry a bunch of bombs.
Durgas use Redeemers the same way GTVA bombers use Maxims: soften up the target before delivering the bombs (the things meant to do the real damage).
Of course. I was just pointing out why the Maxim's inability to destroy capships is a serious flaw.
No it isn't. The Maxim does exactly what it's built to do, and GTVA bomber doctrine does not require it to do more.
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A lot of definitive statements here on things not really pinned down by canon information :colbert:
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Post split into two because of how goddamn long It would be.
The Shivans constantly switch up their tactics. In a hypothetical Third Great War they might care a lot more about the preservation of their warships.
Does the GTVA know this?
No, but it doesn't matter. I'm talking about what they should do, not what makes the most sense from their limited perspective.
It's still important for bombers to be able to destroy them when allied warships can't get to them. Otherwise you have the possibility of a damaged enemy corvette fleeing and surviving because no warships can chase it down and no strikecraft can finish it off.
And that's what bombs are for. Oh, they can be intercepted, sure, but they still work pretty reliably. I'll remind you that the UEF don't use Redeemers to deliver killing blows either, hence why they still carry a bunch of bombs.
Durgas use Redeemers the same way GTVA bombers use Maxims: soften up the target before delivering the bombs (the things meant to do the real damage).
Of course. I was just pointing out why the Maxim's inability to destroy capships is a serious flaw.
No it isn't. The Maxim does exactly what it's built to do, and GTVA bomber doctrine does not require it to do more.
A quad-bank of Maxims does as much hull damage in six seconds as a pair of Cyclops while being far, far more ammunition-efficient and having immunity to interception. A six-bank of Maxims hits as hard as a Cyclops every two seconds, and out-damages a Helios every seven. An eight-bank slightly out-damages a Helios every five seconds.
A weapon with equivalent hull damage and the ability to destroy capital ships could, given a bomber with a four to six-point gunbank and a powerful enough reactor to fire them continuously, be used for devastating long-range assaults that would put a squadron of Cyclops-toting Medusas to shame. A bomber specifically designed for this purpose could have small secondary bays but a single primary bank with as many of this weapon as it could possibly carry while still firing steadily and having good durability.
I imagine you'd end up sacrificing some of the Maxim's ammo-efficiency, but it would be worth it so long as a bank could carry several thousand rounds.
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And do they actually change up their tactics that much? We don't really know that.
Well, from FS1 to FS2 they gained flak guns, beams on all their warships, a more warship-centric style of combat, and their famous overemphasis on forward firepower. That's a pretty big difference both in terms of technology and tactics.
A lot of definitive statements here on things not really pinned down by canon information :colbert:
Like what?
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Post split into two because of how goddamn long It would be.
The Shivans constantly switch up their tactics. In a hypothetical Third Great War they might care a lot more about the preservation of their warships.
Does the GTVA know this?
No, but it doesn't matter. I'm talking about what they should do, not what makes the most sense from their limited perspective.
It's still important for bombers to be able to destroy them when allied warships can't get to them. Otherwise you have the possibility of a damaged enemy corvette fleeing and surviving because no warships can chase it down and no strikecraft can finish it off.
And that's what bombs are for. Oh, they can be intercepted, sure, but they still work pretty reliably. I'll remind you that the UEF don't use Redeemers to deliver killing blows either, hence why they still carry a bunch of bombs.
Durgas use Redeemers the same way GTVA bombers use Maxims: soften up the target before delivering the bombs (the things meant to do the real damage).
Of course. I was just pointing out why the Maxim's inability to destroy capships is a serious flaw.
No it isn't. The Maxim does exactly what it's built to do, and GTVA bomber doctrine does not require it to do more.
A quad-bank of Maxims does as much hull damage in six seconds as a pair of Cyclops while being far, far more ammunition-efficient and having immunity to interception.
Twelve seconds, not six. All your time estimates are actually probably off since I doubt you're accounting for the shockwave damage (which doubles the warhead's impact or something like that; maybe more than doubles).
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Also referring to direct table values doesn't make a terrific amount of sense, since there's supposed to be *things* going on which aren't necessarily calculated by the simulation. I'd say it's safe to assume that Maxim's aren't ever expected to start killing capships.
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A quad-bank of Maxims does as much hull damage in six seconds as a pair of Cyclops while being far, far more ammunition-efficient and having immunity to interception. A six-bank of Maxims hits as hard as a Cyclops every two seconds, and out-damages a Helios every seven. An eight-bank slightly out-damages a Helios every five seconds.
A weapon with equivalent hull damage and the ability to destroy capital ships could, given a bomber with a four to six-point gunbank and a powerful enough reactor to fire them continuously, be used for devastating long-range assaults that would put a squadron of Cyclops-toting Medusas to shame. A bomber specifically designed for this purpose could have small secondary bays but a single primary bank with as many of this weapon as it could possibly carry while still firing steadily and having good durability.
I imagine you'd end up sacrificing some of the Maxim's ammo-efficiency, but it would be worth it so long as a bank could carry several thousand rounds.
And a Vajra does more sustained damage than a BBlue, but that doesn't actually make it a better anti-capital weapon, even damage-wise. Just because the tables show the Maxims or the Redeemers or whatever do more damage than the bombs doesn't mean that they're actually better.
If it did, then the Vajradhara wouldn't bother carrying bombs. A lot of things can't be represented by the tables.
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No, I disagree with that reasoning pretty much entirely. As much as possible the game is the universe.
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No it isn't. The Maxim does exactly what it's built to do, and GTVA bomber doctrine does not require it to do more.
The question is, would it benefit the GTVA to change their doctrine (or at least somewhat modify it)?
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Post split into two because of how goddamn long It would be.
The Shivans constantly switch up their tactics. In a hypothetical Third Great War they might care a lot more about the preservation of their warships.
Does the GTVA know this?
No, but it doesn't matter. I'm talking about what they should do, not what makes the most sense from their limited perspective.
It's still important for bombers to be able to destroy them when allied warships can't get to them. Otherwise you have the possibility of a damaged enemy corvette fleeing and surviving because no warships can chase it down and no strikecraft can finish it off.
And that's what bombs are for. Oh, they can be intercepted, sure, but they still work pretty reliably. I'll remind you that the UEF don't use Redeemers to deliver killing blows either, hence why they still carry a bunch of bombs.
Durgas use Redeemers the same way GTVA bombers use Maxims: soften up the target before delivering the bombs (the things meant to do the real damage).
Of course. I was just pointing out why the Maxim's inability to destroy capships is a serious flaw.
No it isn't. The Maxim does exactly what it's built to do, and GTVA bomber doctrine does not require it to do more.
A quad-bank of Maxims does as much hull damage in six seconds as a pair of Cyclops while being far, far more ammunition-efficient and having immunity to interception.
Twelve seconds, not six. All your time estimates are actually probably off since I doubt you're accounting for the shockwave damage (which doubles the warhead's impact or something like that; maybe more than doubles).
Alright, I'll grant you that. Still, that's enough firepower for a six-bomber wing with six-gunpoint banks of this hypothetical weapon to take down an Orion or similarly armored ship in 16.awholebunchofdecimals seconds. That's more anti-warship firepower than a Chimera corvette for far less cost.
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Really? 16 seconds to kill a ship with more than a million effective hitpoints? I somehow doubt that.
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Really? 16 seconds to kill a ship with more than a million effective hitpoints? I somehow doubt that.
That's without factoring in all of that situational adaptive armor. Unless you've added a ton more armor classes, a Cyclops torpedo would be affected in the same way.
Or, are you telling me that the Orion by default has that amount of effective hit points? That would mean it could survive two salvos from a Sathanas.
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A Cyclops torpedo actually isn't affected in nearly the same way as most of the armor classes don't reduce shockwave damage (which actually composes a significant fraction, maybe better than half, of a Cyclop's damage).
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CT27: Would it? It's added logistical concerns for a weapon that would require a dedicated hull, meaning it isn't going to be used that often, and it's dead weight if you don't have any of those hulls. Is it worthwhile? Many possible opinions, and I expect that given the current conflict, this debate might very well be going on between GTVA military officials.
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I think the Maxim deals reduced damage to larger capships, so for corvettes and bigger, it serves more as an anti turret weapon than for dealing damage. The Vajra and Redeemer don't have that problem though.
Why UEF 'Bombers' still need to carry bombs despite the effective sustained damage of their Vajra and Redeemer primaries? Well, it is because their effective way of dealing damage is through 'Death of A Thousand Cuts', so this number is only effective when the bomber fires continuously at the target without getting distracted by other threats. While on paper they have higher sustained damage than bombs, they lacks the bombs' burst damage capability. Of course it also adds to their damage since both the primaries and the bombs can be fired simultaneously.
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(on a lighter note, thanks guys for helping my thread crack 1K posts ;) )
On topic, here's a thought I had: even assuming switching GTVA bomber doctrine to something more akin to the UEF was the "correct" idea, maybe one of the reasons it shouldn't be done right now is that it would be too expensive and long to do so?
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I think that in an ideal simulation, the high-penetration Maxim would be used to compromise armor and allow a bomb to be lobbed inside the target's squishy insides.
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In an ideal simulation, I would expect those squishy insides to comprise even more armor, layers of shields, autorepair systems, and the like. :P
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for everyone who is drowning in tables right now, go load up a mission in-game with a cap ship, hammer it with maxims (or whatever your weapon of interest is) and watch how fast the hull goes down. also take note of all other effects, such as your survivability while blasting away and your energy reserves.
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A Cyclops torpedo actually isn't affected in nearly the same way as most of the armor classes don't reduce shockwave damage (which actually composes a significant fraction, maybe better than half, of a Cyclop's damage).
All you need is for the gun's ammunition to make a big enough explosion to produce a small shockwave. That wouldn't be terribly difficult to accomplish, and has the added benefit of increasing burst damage (since the ammo would have to be larger and more powerful).
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All you need is for the gun's ammunition to make a big enough explosion to produce a small shockwave. That wouldn't be terribly difficult to accomplish, and has the added benefit of increasing burst damage (since the ammo would have to larger and more powerful).
That's like saying all you need to do is just go into the tables and increase the damage on weapons.
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A Cyclops torpedo actually isn't affected in nearly the same way as most of the armor classes don't reduce shockwave damage (which actually composes a significant fraction, maybe better than half, of a Cyclop's damage).
All you need is for the gun's ammunition to make a big enough explosion to produce a small shockwave. That wouldn't be terribly difficult to accomplish, and has the added benefit of increasing burst damage (since the ammo would have to larger and more powerful).
Like the Redeemer or Vajra?
(mass Maxim will never be a viable anti-warship strategy)
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Ooh, why?
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All you need is for the gun's ammunition to make a big enough explosion to produce a small shockwave. That wouldn't be terribly difficult to accomplish, and has the added benefit of increasing burst damage (since the ammo would have to larger and more powerful).
That's like saying all you need to do is just go into the tables and increase the damage on weapons.
No, that's like saying all you need to do is modify your ammunition.
A Cyclops torpedo actually isn't affected in nearly the same way as most of the armor classes don't reduce shockwave damage (which actually composes a significant fraction, maybe better than half, of a Cyclop's damage).
All you need is for the gun's ammunition to make a big enough explosion to produce a small shockwave. That wouldn't be terribly difficult to accomplish, and has the added benefit of increasing burst damage (since the ammo would have to larger and more powerful).
Like the Redeemer or Vajra?
(mass Maxim will never be a viable anti-warship strategy)
Of course it won't. The Maxim can't destroy capital ships.
I'm still talking about my hypothetical weapon with equivalent DPS (although the shockwave would double it).
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No, that's like saying all you need to do is modify your ammunition.
Assuming it can be modified. The Redeemer and Vajra already have blasts, but for something else, like an Archer, who's to say what adding a warhead would do the the round's armor piercing capabilities (for example)? It's not as simple as "add a shockwave and the gun will be more powerful".
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No, that's like saying all you need to do is modify your ammunition.
Assuming it can be modified. The Redeemer and Vajra already have blasts, but for something else, like an Archer, who's to say what adding a warhead would do the the round's armor piercing capabilities (for example)? It's not as simple as "add a shockwave and the gun will be more powerful".
Adding a small warhead would increase hull damage, and not just because of the shockwave. Lessened subsystem damage would be an acceptable loss.
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Sure, adding a shockwave will increase hull damage, but maybe adding a warhead will mean the round can't penetrate armor as well, so instead of a shot doing 100 damage, it'll do 50.
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Sure, adding a shockwave will increase hull damage, but maybe adding a warhead will mean the round can't penetrate armor as well, so instead of a shot doing 100 damage, it'll do 50.
Yes, but as Batutta said shockwaves penetrate armor better than the main shot (god knows how, but they do). In the scenario you describe, the round would end up doing 150 because of the added shockwave damage, while without one it would only do 100.
EDIT: Oh and in some cases the shockwave would strike another warship and deal minor damage to it.
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You're not getting the point.
In-universe weapons design isn't like tabling. The Archer's designers can't just open up its tables and add a shockwave. It doesn't work that way. There are tradeoffs. Maybe the round is too small to carry a warhead that could actually do damage. Maybe there'd be too much of a risk of catastrophic detonation because the Uriel's ammo hold wasn't designed for explosive rounds.
Stop assuming weapons are as easily modified as the tables are.
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I - what? No, that's not how it works; reducing the direct impact damage also reduces the shockwave damage. The shockwave damage just isn't reduced by most armor types. And why are you envisioning a shockwave big enough to reach other warships?
Look, this discussion is totally absurd. The gameplay that happens in Blue Planet missions is as close as feasibly possible to the reality of combat in Blue Planet. The tactical realities of that gameplay are the tactical realities of Blue Planet. Mathing everything out with table values is pointless because it only gets at a fraction of the variables that really drive that combat.
Min-maxed 'solutions' to FreeSpace warfare that reduce complex tactical environments to a single mode of engagement are never going to be viable in Blue Planet. There is a reason that warship turrets don't all mount Morningstars.
Your notional Maxim with a shockwave will never be an effective weapon. The entire mode of thought that produced it is anathema to the design space here. Yet you only have to look to the Redeemer or Vajra to see examples of very effective anti-warship primaries.
also this
You're not getting the point.
In-universe weapons design isn't like tabling. The Archer's designers can't just open up its tables and add a shockwave. It doesn't work that way. There are tradeoffs. Maybe the round is too small to carry a warhead that could actually do damage. Maybe there'd be too much of a risk of catastrophic detonation because the Uriel's ammo hold wasn't designed for explosive rounds.
Stop assuming weapons are as easily modified as the tables are.
The tables do not drive changes in the universe. The universe drives changes in the tables.
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I - what? No, that's not how it works; reducing the direct impact damage also reduces the shockwave damage. The shockwave damage just isn't reduced by most armor types. And why are you envisioning a shockwave big enough to reach other warships?
I thought he was referring to a weapon's ability to punch through all of that adaptive armor stuff; clearly I misunderstood him. In any case, the shockwave adds enough power that the weapon would need a 51% or greater reduction in damage for there to be any net loss.
Look, this discussion is totally absurd. The gameplay that happens in Blue Planet missions is as close as feasibly possible to the reality of combat in Blue Planet. The tactical realities of that gameplay are the tactical realities of Blue Planet. Mathing everything out with table values is pointless because it only gets at a fraction of the variables that really drive that combat.
Ship, weapon, and armor tables enable the gameplay and changing them can have significant effects. I'd hardly call them pointless.
Min-maxed 'solutions' to FreeSpace warfare that reduce complex tactical environments to a single mode of engagement are never going to be viable in Blue Planet. There is a reason that warship turrets don't all mount Morningstars.
Of course there is, although Morningstars could perhaps be useful as secondary point-defenses.
Your notional Maxim with a shockwave will never be an effective weapon. The entire mode of thought that produced it is anathema to the design space here. Yet you only have to look to the Redeemer or Vajra to see examples of very effective anti-warship primaries.
"Maxim with a shockwave" only means an anti-warship primary with roughly equal sustained damage (counting or not counting the shockwave, your choice) that can destroy capships. This could be anything from a Maxim with added shockwave to a weapon in the style of the UEF's Redeemer and Vajira (and if the former isn't feasible for some engineering reason the latter still is).
also this
You're not getting the point.
In-universe weapons design isn't like tabling. The Archer's designers can't just open up its tables and add a shockwave. It doesn't work that way. There are tradeoffs. Maybe the round is too small to carry a warhead that could actually do damage. Maybe there'd be too much of a risk of catastrophic detonation because the Uriel's ammo hold wasn't designed for explosive rounds.
Stop assuming weapons are as easily modified as the tables are.
The tables do not drive changes in the universe. The universe drives changes in the tables.
If the UEF can do it I'm pretty sure the GTVA could learn to.
Aesaar: Also, who said anything about the Archer or Uriel?
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What point are you trying to make? That if we designed a weapon exactly like the Redeemer or Vajra it would be useful at killing capital ships?
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Aesaar: Also, who said anything about the Archer or Uriel?
it's what we know in the trade as 'an example'
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What point are you trying to make? That if we designed a weapon exactly like the Redeemer or Vajra it would be useful at killing capital ships?
Close, but not exactly. My point is that the GTVA would do well to adopt a weapon similar to the Redeemer (it would presumably be more efficient and somewhat weaker, though the latter is not a guarantee). As I pointed out, even an anti-warship weapon with Maxim-level sustained damage could be devastating given enough gunbanks, and it couldn't be shot down like bombs can.
Aesaar: Also, who said anything about the Archer or Uriel?
it's what we know in the trade as 'an example'
Well, that example applies to a modified Maxim, but not to an entirely new weapon with similar sustained damage.
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I'm not sure they would do well. It doesn't fit their doctrine, they don't have spaceframes or logistical tails built for it, and I'm not sure it adds capabilities they need.
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I'm not sure they would do well. It doesn't fit their doctrine, they don't have spaceframes or logistical tails built for it, and I'm not sure it adds capabilities they need.
At the moment it might not be a great idea for them to replace their Cyclops and Helios with such a radically different weapon, but they could implement it on a smaller scale. After their war with the UEF ends (assuming they haven't collapsed), the GTVA could began incorporating it into their larger doctrine.
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/me enters GTVA workshop, designs long-range energy weapon (compatible with GTVA's lack of ballistic primaries) with good burst damage. Power requirements become too high to match sustained damage output of Maxim, and it still can't finish off capital ships, besides being completely unoptimized against shields.
I'm sorry; I tried. It just won't work. :(
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I'm not sure they would do well. It doesn't fit their doctrine, they don't have spaceframes or logistical tails built for it, and I'm not sure it adds capabilities they need.
At the moment it might not be a great idea for them to replace their Cyclops and Helios with such a radically different weapon, but they could implement it on a smaller scale. After their war with the UEF ends (assuming they haven't collapsed), the GTVA could began incorporating it into their larger doctrine.
Inasmuch as the drone bomber corps and the Eos Interim Strike Munition are (as the name suggests) interim solutions, the direction the GTVA bomber corps seems to be headed is less 'I kill stuff' and more of a tactical support role for both warships and fighters. Strategic bombers are headed out, SSMs are headed in.
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And Tev warships are designed for that - they're absurdly good at taking out capital ships in a hurry, as opposed to more generalized buntu designs.
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Apart from what's already been said, the current GTVA ships are designed to go against Shivans, who have vastly inferiour point defense compared to UEF ships.
One way or the other the GTVA-UEF war is going to end soon so the GTVA is very unlikely to develop any weapons specifically designed to crack UEF ships.
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I doubt the Cyclops and Helios need an improvement, UEF's Jackhammer and Sledgehammer may be better, but not by a significant margin. If they want something to copy from the UEF bombs, it would be their adaptability, like being able to load Cyclops into heavy fighters. They would get more for reverse engineering the Warhammer instead since it is something the GTVA don't have.
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We've never actually pinned down the Jackhammer and Sledgehammer's capabilities quite as much as we'd like. They probably won't see too much change in terms of damage but the UEF may roll out some kind of penetration aid - rapid aspect lock, armor, maybe decoys to help saturate point defenses.
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Look, this discussion is totally absurd. The gameplay that happens in Blue Planet missions is as close as feasibly possible to the reality of combat in Blue Planet. The tactical realities of that gameplay are the tactical realities of Blue Planet. Mathing everything out with table values is pointless because it only gets at a fraction of the variables that really drive that combat.
Ship, weapon, and armor tables enable the gameplay and changing them can have significant effects. I'd hardly call them pointless.
Their point, if I'm reading it correctly is that the tables are adjusted every mission to fit canon lore in BP. The base values of the tables don't matter, because if lore says something will happen, the tables will just be adjusted to suit that reality.
The tables, and the relative effectiveness of weapons are determined by the storyline and background info, not the other way around.
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Really though, I wish the GTVA would develop a Helios variant that could be fired without a lock and detonated manually. Would make life much easier.
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And it wouldn't even do half the damage. The point of a lock is for the warhead to find vulnerabilities in the target's hull in order to maximize the payload's efficiency.
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And it wouldn't even do half the damage. The point of a lock is for the warhead to find vulnerabilities in the target's hull in order to maximize the payload's efficiency.
This gets into GTVA economics as well. How much does a Helios cost to produce for example? They're definitely not as commonplace as Cyclops for example. Massed unguided Cyclops from bombers would probably be viable, at least in a gate-blockade mission where the bombers could reliably predict the trajectory of ships.
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If we're translating in-universe reality to tables, I tend to think what Matth described isn't what gives bombs damage, it's what gives bombs the Huge flag. Dumbfired bombs just couldn't do meaningful structural damage to targets bigger than cruisers.
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And it wouldn't even do half the damage. The point of a lock is for the warhead to find vulnerabilities in the target's hull in order to maximize the payload's efficiency.
It doesn't take a lock to lob a warhead into a vulnerable hull breach or fighter bay. Forcing pilots to wait to fire on an easy target gives the enemy time to react; a bomber that dies before they get a shot off has a payload efficiency of zero.
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Warheads universally need aspect lock so far, though; so presumably there's some good reason for this.
(The AI, of course, doesn't actually need any such thing...)
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(The AI, of course, doesn't actually need any such thing...)
It does. It's just handled differently, the game calculates some sort of timer based on the tabled lock values, IIRC.
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I wonder. The UEF has the Sanctuary's crew. Some of them are bound to be döppelgangers of GTVA personnel. Should the GTVA worry about some semi-important officers being switcharooed as infiltration acts by the UEF? Sure, not feasible to pull off, but since the Feyadeen pulled off a lot of not so feasible things in act 3, I'm starting to think they might just manage to do that once or twice. Drop the weapons a destroyer just at the right time, sabotage battle plans through misdirection, spreading general paranoia about döppelgangers..
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I wouldn't be so sure. Most of the people on board the Sanctuary spent those 50 years in cold sleep and thus didn't age. And of those that did work in the (awake) crew, most would be old enough to retire, so there probably aren't all that many opportunities for such operations.
What I'd like to know is, what happened with those that were put into cold sleep due to the "hallicunations". Looking back it's very likely that they are Nagari sensitive and thus of interrest to people like the Fedayeen.
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What I'd like to know is, what happened with those that were put into cold sleep due to the "hallicunations". Looking back it's very likely that they are Nagari sensitive and thus of interrest to people like the Fedayeen.
Sometimes a hallucination is just that. Remember that the Sanctuary spent an unprecedented amount of time in that nebula, radiation and the constant exposure to something as headache-inducing as that may just cause these effects.
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But, alternatively, many of them may well have been Nagari sensitives who ended up in a bad place.
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What I'd like to know is, what happened with those that were put into cold sleep due to the "hallicunations". Looking back it's very likely that they are Nagari sensitive and thus of interrest to people like the Fedayeen.
Sometimes a hallucination is just that. Remember that the Sanctuary spent an unprecedented amount of time in that nebula, radiation and the constant exposure to something as headache-inducing as that may just cause these effects.
Sure that's a possibility, but on the other hand they never found a cause for it despite spending almost 50 years of looking into the matter.
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They spent almost 50 years looking for it with failing equipment and medics that were probably not the best specialists humanity used to have.
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Beggining to think that BP uses Nagari like ME uses biotics, i.e. a scifi excuse for any kind of strange experience.
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luis are you just trolling these days
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Don't abuse an otherwise useful word like "trolling", ok phantom? I mean what I said. Every time some strange thing happens, a writer from BP team comes up and leaves a comment "perhaps it was Nagari ****". Yeah, thanks for that.
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Beggining to think that BP uses Nagari like ME uses biotics, i.e. a scifi excuse for any kind of strange experience.
I don't that's true and I don't think that you can substantiate it. 'Every time someone in contact with Vishnans/Shivans has a weird hallucinatory experience, perhaps it was Nagari ****' is pretty reasonable. It's not like Iain MacDuff and the third Knossos are suddenly Nagari sensitives.
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They spent almost 50 years looking for it with failing equipment and medics that were probably not the best specialists humanity used to have.
On the other hand not even knowing about the existance of nagari would make it all that much harder to spot it as the deciding factor, while they did know about all kind of phsychosis and other neural or psychologilcal problems, but never could tie one of them to the affected people.
Also we don't know anything about the crew. While it's possible that they just grabbed anyone who was in range and shoved them onto the Sanctuary in a hurry, it's also possible they gathered the brightest and best people of Sol (including the relevant experts) together and gave them prefferential access and average people were only let on board to fill up the last few empty places. Actually considering the big S was an Arche Noah, it would make a lot of sense to get the best medical personel you can get within the deadline on board to aid in the continued survival of the species. to come in contact or hear about almst every Nagari occurance that ever happened to our species
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Every time some strange thing happens, a writer from BP team comes up and leaves a comment "perhaps it was Nagari ****". Yeah, thanks for that.
It's almost as though comments on the forums aren't meant to be anything approaching definitive and are just meant to get you thinking...
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A Nagari Wizard Did It.
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Just thought of this in the morning, having seen a documentary recently. So, both sides are quite dependable on their convoys, with both sides suffering hit-and-run attacks by both smaller and larger vessels. Yet, neither side has utilized Q-ships, how come? Wouldn't it be a huge tactical advantage to have a seemingly innocent looking train of 5 freighters, of which 2 are refitted with concealed weaponry to give the attacker a nasty surprise? Even if only to force the enemy to commit more of their ships to the attack, in case Q-ships are part of a convoy, reducing their ability to utilize these attacking ships elsewhere. That way you either attack enemy convoys less frequently, or you take a gambit that you cannot respond to a counter-attack because your reserve ships are now needed to strike a convoy, to cut your losses to a minimum if a Q-ship is present. Besides, imagine the horror when one of those cargo modules on an enemy freighter is actually a concealed torpedo release chamber, throwing two dozen torpedoes at your frigate or corvette from a mere 1500 metres.
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We've seen precisely one convoy so far. That convoy didn't have the time to request some Q-ships. Maybe they have been used and we haven't seen them.
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Yet, neither side has utilized Q-ships, how come?
Q-ships are the least efficient and least effective (related but not the same concepts) method of escorting convoys. There is literally nothing they do a purpose-designed warship doesn't do better.
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Yet, neither side has utilized Q-ships, how come?
Q-ships are the least efficient and least effective (related but not the same concepts) method of escorting convoys. There is literally nothing they do a purpose-designed warship doesn't do better.
That's true, but they are better than no escort at all. They would become viable if they were cheap and you had no available warships to escort a convoy. Probably would be used with low-value cargo on out-of-the-way routes to keep the actual warships where the enemy is likely to attack. But yeah, if I could have a cruiser over a souped-up transport, I'd take the cruiser!
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Q ships would work much better for pirate (GEF) suppression then convoy defense.
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Yet, neither side has utilized Q-ships, how come?
Q-ships are the least efficient and least effective (related but not the same concepts) method of escorting convoys. There is literally nothing they do a purpose-designed warship doesn't do better.
The job of the Q-ships wouldn't be escort per se, but the destruction of convoy raiders, which I don't believe you could do. First, the convoy would have to be big and well-armed enough to lure in a cruiser or a corvette; then, it would have to conceal enough weaponry to destroy the attacker reliably, which I'm not convinced you could do with a crate full of bombs.
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in order to get warship-level firepower, you are going to have to spend warship-level money. and then you might as well build a proper warship. if a freighter can take out a cruiser/corvette, guess what it's not a freighter anymore.
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Q-ships worked because you could easily hide a 4 inch gun on a trawler, and that gave you the same firepower as a WW1 U-boat on the surface, suckered into surfacing because the trawler didn't look like a target worth expending a torpedo on. And the trawler could take more damage than the U-boat, preventing the U-boat from submerging was as good as a "kill".
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That's true, but they are better than no escort at all. They would become viable if they were cheap and you had no available warships to escort a convoy. Probably would be used with low-value cargo on out-of-the-way routes to keep the actual warships where the enemy is likely to attack. But yeah, if I could have a cruiser over a souped-up transport, I'd take the cruiser!
Remember rule 1 of intrasystem subspace travel: All points are equidistant. It is completely feasible to have a few fighter wings or corvettes on standby to quickly jump to any convoy's location, just as it is feasible to send sufficient escorts with the freighters and recall them if their services are needed elsewhere.
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Q ships would work much better for pirate (GEF) suppression then convoy defense.
They really don't. The Q-ship is a dumb idea the Royal Navy had back when they were resisting going to convoys in WW1. Rather than have convoys like sane people they instead built Q-ships to go around pretending to be helpless and get attacked and sink the attacking U-boat in the hopes that would put a significant dent in merchant losses.
It did not. Because it was a dumb idea in comparison to actual escort. Q-ships deliberately invite an attack on themselves, and when used as convoy escorts on their charges, when at least part of the point of escort is to discourage attack.
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yep, even the RN thought it war a dumb idea after WW1 - didn't stop them trying it in WW2!!!
There may have been 366 Q-ships, of which 61 were lost.[2] After the war, it was concluded that Q-ships were greatly overrated, diverting skilled seamen from other duties without sinking enough U-boats to justify the strategy.[3] In a total of 150 engagements, British Q-ships destroyed 14 U-boats and damaged 60, at a cost of 27 Q-ships lost out of 200. Q-ships were responsible for about 10% of all U-boats sunk, ranking them well below the use of ordinary minefields in effectiveness.
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I'd also point out that disguising military vessels as civilian freighters would endanger real civilians by forcing the GTVA to treat all traffic as potentially military. At best it would put GTVA pilots on edge, at worst the assumption of escorts would void what little BETAC protection civilians have left. The same thing happened in Iraq and Afghanistan, where the risk of oncoming vehicles carrying gunmen or bombs led to panicked innocents being gunned down at checkpoints.
Ubuntu would never allow it, and even if it did, it would just further the GTVA's claim that Ubuntu is a radical religious sect and cement GTVA public opinion against the UEF.
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Note that the UEF is basically doing it the other way around. Instead of equipping civilian crafts with military-grade weaponry, they use military crafts for civilian logistic duties, aka the Sanctus.
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Remember rule 1 of intrasystem subspace travel: All points are equidistant. It is completely feasible to have a few fighter wings or corvettes on standby to quickly jump to any convoy's location, just as it is feasible to send sufficient escorts with the freighters and recall them if their services are needed elsewhere.
Well, this is a game about space fighters. :yes: Gives us a good reason to fight!
But, yeah, that makes more logistical sense to send actual warships into the battle instead of tansports with some guns. Especially at very low opportunity cost.
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I simply remember that they worked in one of the Trek games. You'd attack a convoy, thinking it was easy game while your wingman attacked the escorting cruiser or so, then all of a sudden half of those freighters would be Q-modded, firing a volley of torpedoes you'd not expect, with the escort turning to you max speed, attacking you while you were unshielded and recovering. You'd sometimes die if you did not prepare a counter for the chance of a Q-freighter and your wingman would retreat as it could not handle both the escort and the freighters anyway. Seemed possible there, different than actual Q-ships maybe though.
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Star Trek... so are you flying a big ship? That combined with the difference in FTL physics between the two universes would be enough to make Q-ships work, IMHO.
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There could be an argument in favour of Q ships if they were sufficiently strong enough to defeat a fighter/bomber assult, requiring the enemy to deploy warships to ensure the attack is successfull. This would have two main advantages:
1. Less attacks on convoys as the enemy would only commit when essential
2. Deployed warships would be vulnerable to counterstrikes.
Of course a way to mitigate this threat would be developed but it could be a relatively cheap way to buy time for resupplying beleaguered outposts.
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No. Q-ships are a solution looking for a problem given the realities of the war. As pointed out previously, deploying armed merchant ships (Well, armed with more than superficially point defense guns anyway) means that you put the real merchants at risk, since you cannot count on the other side to keep to the conventions of warfare. Also, subspace.
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they're just after our shipping. Cripple our freight, our fuel transport, our medical ability. The rest is collateral
I think the real merchants are already at risk. Giving them a chance to defend themselves without having to constantly have assets on standby for defence may offer a short term advantage. Also as I said before subspace allows both sides the opportunity to use convoys as lures to ambush deployed warships
Edit. Kingmakers lost six haulers to GTVA skirmishers
In a full scale retreat light forces were able to rip through the Jovian civilian convoys. If The GTVA had to deploy heavier units to attack these convoys then an argument could be made that they would have had to prioritise these assets on military units meaning more civilians could have escaped.
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Yes, for about half an engagement. I would like to remind you of the very first mission of WiH, where the GTVA pilots had orders to capture the convoy and made it very clear that by travelling under escort, the ships were considered enemy combatants and therefore valid targets.
If you arm merchies with capital-grade weaponry, then the natural response of the attacker needs to be to open fire as soon as possible to neutralize the targets. By not doing that, you can at least make sure that civillians do not get put into the line of fire unnecessarily.
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I was referring to deterrants. Would the GTVA risk assaults such as in mission one if the civilian forces were capable of defending themselves? Would admiral Byrne have had to prioritise the defence of civilian shipping over military assets? There are possibilities opened by the use of armed civilian ships and whilst this may make them seen as a valid military target the GTVA were attacking them before any mention was made of the BETAC protections (though this could have been done before the start of the mission).
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What kind of possibilities? Forcing the GTVA to treat every ship encountered as potentially hostile? Turning every single ship into a potential threat that needs to be neutralized?
And for what in return? The potential to kill a few fighters? Your cost/benefit calculation on this is not exactly good, you know.
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To look at thing from the GTVA side Calder can now launch assaults on the node meaning their shipping is vulnerable however the losses he has taken would mean that these raids will be done exclusively by strikecraft. Steele cannot divert ships to defend the node without affecting the preparations for the assult on Earth. In these circumstances sufficiently powerfull Q ships could be the ideal solution to cover this short period and allow GTVA convoys to reach their destinations.
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Forcing the GTVA to treat every ship encountered as potentially hostile? Turning every single ship into a potential threat that needs to be neutralized?
No force the enemy to consider the fact that their forces may be outgunned, make them question whether the risk of a attack is worth the potentail gains, force the enemy to consolidate their forces on priority targets and allow more of your forces the opportunity to escape whilst the enemy hesitates.
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Oh for the love of kittens.
The risk for the attacker is negligible, even if you arm some of the convoy ships. If you launch a fighter strike against a convoy, the fighters have enough time to exfiltrate if they find themselves outgunned. If you launch a Corvette strike against a convoy, it will have enough firepower to kill the attacker regardless (Have you looked at what a Diomedes can do?), or exfiltrate before bad things happen. Your Q-ships would not be able to inflict much damage before they're destroyed.
In all cases, you are proposing a strategy that would make every. single. civillian. ship. a potential enemy combatant that needs to be neutralized and destroyed. If this was a total war scenario, that would be one thing. This isn't. It's a police action writ large, nothing more.
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To look at thing from the GTVA side Calder can now launch assaults on the node
Even when the war was young assaults on the node were generally suicidal - consider that the 14th battlegroup took out 5 Karuna at that chokepoint despite being barely held together and with a 50% mutiny rate - with no losses.
. . . meaning their shipping is vulnerable however the losses he has taken would mean that these raids will be done exclusively by strikecraft.
I don't think that means that at all - lighter combatants certainly, but Calder still has 5+ Sanctus and an unknown number of Custos to work with. Steele cannot divert ships to defend the node without affecting the preparations for the assult on Earth.
Steele is already covering the node, or the UEF would have overrun it already. There is a prohibitive defense at the node - enough that throughout the entire arc of War in Heaven, no one has even considered it in more than a fantastical way. In these circumstances sufficiently powerfull Q ships could be the ideal solution to cover this short period and allow GTVA convoys to reach their destinations.
How would this be more economical strategically than deploying some more Cretheus or Aeolus combatants? Consider that the cruisers in Nothing is True - a Mentu and a Aten, were more than capable of holding off an attack on the scale that we saw in that mission, in less extraordinary circumstances. While electronics warfare is commonplace, it is not often that an enemy has not only extensive data, but a virus powerful enough to shut down point defenses - it was also unprecedented (as far as we know) in the war. Such an attack would have worked on Q ships as well. I would put a well supported Aeolus on much firmer footing than any number of up-armed freighters in terms of defensive strength.
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The risk for the attacker is negligible, even if you arm some of the convoy ships. If you launch a fighter strike against a convoy, the fighters have enough time to exfiltrate if they find themselves outgunned.
There could be an argument in favour of Q ships if they were sufficiently strong enough to defeat a fighter/bomber assult
If a fighter/bomber assult is forced to withdraw then the Q ship has done its job as I was talking about deterrence. The GTVA are not Shivans - they cannot send wave after wave of fighters and bombers against low priority targets. In the event that a convoy was to well defended then they would have to leave it alone or use warships.
If you launch a Corvette strike against a convoy, it will have enough firepower to kill the attacker regardless
Deployed warships would be vulnerable to counterstrikes
Would ether combatant risk going after standard civilian shipping with warships knowing that the assult could escalate into a pitched battle in which the attacker would be placed in a severe disadvantage? Even a Diomedes is vulnerable to counterattacks whilst its jump drives are charging. My guess would be that a target would have to be pretty dam valuable to the enemy before I would risk committing warship assets.
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Mars
Looking back at that post I meant to say that Calder could raid the node rather than assult meaning that I think the strike craft would be used to keep the GTVA off balance through hit and run strikes that would take out supply ships whilst specifically avoiding warships and interceptors. Steele is supplying 5 destroyer battlegroups which could raise to 7 before his assult begins. This would be a lot of shipping and although cruisers and gunships could be used to protect the most critical assets the sheer weight of traffic would mean that defending all would be impossible.
I don't know how the BP guys want to use the Virus aspect but I was under the impression that a countermeasure had already been developed for this.
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If a fighter/bomber assult is forced to withdraw then the Q ship has done its job as I was talking about deterrence. The GTVA are not Shivans - they cannot send wave after wave of fighters and bombers against low priority targets. In the event that a convoy was to well defended then they would have to leave it alone or use warships.
But deterrence is not a useful strategy here. Committing overwhelming force to kill any Q-ship-escorted convoy is trivially easy. You assume that this supposed deterrence effect would protect a convoy, when in actuality, it would put all convoys at risk because the only protection they have right now is that what the convoys are transporting is more valuable intact than destroyed. There's an incentive to capture, rather than destroy, a convoy. Your silly scheme would reverse that.
You are also assuming that Q-ship conversions or purpose-built Q-ships are something that can be built. This is untrue; if there was yard space available to build new ships or convert existing ones, it is put to better use repairing or upgrading or building real warships.
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There's an incentive to capture, rather than destroy, a convoy. Your silly scheme would reverse that.
There have been no instances so far in BP where I as a player have seen a reference to a convoy being captured by ether side (the other side was referenced The Regressive Customs Tax as an independent trader) however if this is the case then your logic would suggest that there is no point in defending civilian convoys at all as by traveling with a military escort they become legitimate targets and would be destroyed. This would mean then that the only way to successfully protect convoys is to send them out undefended and allow them to be captured without a fight.
Do the UEF allow non essential convoys to be captured rather than risk endangering civilians?
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They wouldn't be destroyed, they'd be attacked. The escorts would be destroyed or driven off. There's always an incentive to capture valuable ships that can't fight back. You start putting meaningful weapons on freighters, and you start making the effort of disabling, disarming, and boarding not worth the benefits of capture.
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What about GTVA Q-ships for catching Fedayeen? When the Ainsariis get close, cargo containers pop releasing Pegasi with TAGs, and the freighters are armed with ULTRAs or something. Assuming the Tevs could engineer a convoy that actually attracts Fedayeen like that one did.
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What about GTVA Q-ships for catching Fedayeen? When the Ainsariis get close, cargo containers pop releasing Pegasi with TAGs, and the freighters are armed with ULTRAs or something. Assuming the Tevs could engineer a convoy that actually attracts Fedayeen like that one did.
Or they could just give the Charybdis upgraded armor and some AAAs and make life hell for the Feds in general.
Star Trek... so are you flying a big ship?
Unrelated, but a Galaxy-class (TNG Enterprise) is 80m shy of a Deimos, and considered rather large for its universe.
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There's no real reason for the UEF to actually pursue Q-ships. They don't have the resources or time to implement that. If Steele can attack in anything less than months, then it's a waste of time/resources. If they had any to spare, they'd be repairing/building true warships. Q-ships make more sense against stuff like pirates or the Gefs (maybe, since even they have military surplus essentially).
Also given the fact that if you can send a cruiser from Earth orbit to the convoy in 30 seconds no matter where they are (I didn't realize subspace was like that before), you don't need a Q-ship. You can just listen in on the comms and when you get a signal, you send your defence force. It actually makes you more flexible with fewer assets.
Another thing, the Tevs have a technological advantage here. They have better offensive weapons (read: beams). The only way UEF forces really can press an advantage is by keeping the range open beyond 4 km. And that's with capital-class railguns/mass drivers. Q-ships don't offer any real benefit in that environment either. Unless you armor your ships like a frigate, it's useless, and once you get that much metal on a frame you might as well build a warship.
Really, the nature of subspace kills the idea. It doesn't really cost you to hold your forces in reserve because it doesn't cost much to deploy anywhere. Besides, we need missions to fly, and this gives us exactly that! Jump five shifts, here we come.
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Taking out the Ainsariis does little really, if they want anything from them, they will capture the Fedayeen agents instead. As long as Al-Da'wa is still out there, they could always recruit more. If they want to do that sneak attack thing, better to do it to that 1337 ship.
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Yeah. The only time Q ships make sense - in any sci-fi universe - is for pirate suppression. Every civilian ship is already a pirate target, so you send a Q ship on standard shipping lanes, the pirate comes in all fat and happy to capture the merchant ship, and the merchant ship blows the hell out of them.
In conventional warfare they are worse then useless.
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It could work as a deterrent to guerilla tactics though, couldn't it ?
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But why would you need that when you can have true military ships show up in less than three minutes? We already see this in action during the campaign in For The Wrong Reasons. And besides we all know there would be no space pirates. The amount of control necessary to keep underlings in check and resources needed to make a space fleet would probably put them up as a micro rouge state.
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<snip> And besides we all know there would be no space pirates. The amount of control necessary to keep underlings in check and resources needed to make a space fleet would probably put them up as a micro rouge state.
Case in point: The Gefs
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Anyway, if for some reason you built a freighter with decent weaponry you'd be better off using it as a gunboat than a Q-Ship.
EDIT: You'd have something similar to an auxiliary cruiser, which would constitute a warship asset, albeit a minor one. Putting it on permanent, hidden escort duty would be a waste of resources. And it would endanger all the civilian ships.
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Well FS universe is poorly suited to pirates in general, and thus Q ships. Choke points around Nodes make it a lot harder to find merchant ships all off on their lonesome in the deep and too far away to signal for help.
Apollo my point about Q ships only being effective against pirates is because all civilian ships are already targets. The Q ship is a trap, not a hunter.
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Well FS universe is poorly suited to pirates in general, and thus Q ships. Choke points around Nodes make it a lot harder to find merchant ships all off on their lonesome in the deep and too far away to signal for help.
Apollo my point about Q ships only being effective against pirates is because all civilian ships are already targets. The Q ship is a trap, not a hunter.
I agree with you. I was referring to their wartime use, which does endanger civilian ships.
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A lot of this thread has (understandably so) focused on what the GTVA's strategy should be militarily.
To look at it from a different angle somewhat, if you were a GTVA Terran leader (Tocqueville or someone else), what would/should be said to the people to try and keep up GTVA civilian support for the war?
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I think if it is just pure civilian convoy, the GTVA have no excuse to attack them. Sending unescorted convoys however, will attack other unwanted visitors, namely Gefs and Pirates. Not to mention the SOC will get them to attack the convoy just to keep their hands clean.
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Pure civilian convoys are absolutely fair game. It's called commerce raiding, and it's been employed for centuries, if not longer. That doesn't mean "You are not us, so die," it means "Surrender your ships or we'll make you".
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Pure civilian convoys are absolutely fair game. It's called commerce raiding, and it's been employed for centuries, if not longer. That doesn't mean "You are not us, so die," it means "Surrender your ships or we'll make you".
That's a total war scenario however, and the GTVA is mostly staying off that game (with the exception of a few raids on Luna and armed convoys)
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No, I think if Steele's timetables could spare the equipment shortages, he'd try to take down military supply convoys in an effort to further restrict Fed logistics. It is just that any significant military shipping would also have a substantial escort, and he can't spare the materiel needed to take those down while he's busy prepping to blitz Earth for good this time.
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Pure civilian convoys are absolutely fair game. It's called commerce raiding, and it's been employed for centuries, if not longer. That doesn't mean "You are not us, so die," it means "Surrender your ships or we'll make you".
That's a total war scenario however, and the GTVA is mostly staying off that game (with the exception of a few raids on Luna and armed convoys)
And the Blitz.
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And the Blitz.
True that.
No, I think if Steele's timetables could spare the equipment shortages, he'd try to take down military supply convoys in an effort to further restrict Fed logistics. It is just that any significant military shipping would also have a substantial escort, and he can't spare the materiel needed to take those down while he's busy prepping to blitz Earth for good this time.
He really doesn't want to destroy Federal logistics any more than he has to.
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Civilian logistics, no. Military logistics, yes, since that means their warships, crewmen, fighters, and pilots are stretched that extra bit more when he launches his Second Blitz.
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Pure civilian convoys are absolutely fair game. It's called commerce raiding, and it's been employed for centuries, if not longer. That doesn't mean "You are not us, so die," it means "Surrender your ships or we'll make you".
That's a total war scenario however, and the GTVA is mostly staying off that game (with the exception of a few raids on Luna and armed convoys)
I thought the whole point of the UEF escorts we see in the first mission was that the GTVA were boarding civilian vessels.
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if you were a GTVA Terran leader (Tocqueville or someone else), what would/should be said to the people to try and keep up GTVA civilian support for the war?
I don't think that they have to do anything as the war is almost won, casualties caused by the battle for Earth may cause some disquiet but that would probably be drowned out in the victory celebrations.
On the other hand if Steele manages to **** things up and lose the battle (but not the war) then he will be a convenient scapegoat for the politicians looking to save their own skins. Although if the UEF are in a position to keep fighting after this then I don't think the civilian population would allow the war to continue.
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Pure civilian convoys are absolutely fair game. It's called commerce raiding, and it's been employed for centuries, if not longer. That doesn't mean "You are not us, so die," it means "Surrender your ships or we'll make you".
That's a total war scenario however, and the GTVA is mostly staying off that game (with the exception of a few raids on Luna and armed convoys)
And the Blitz.
And the hunt for the ships that escaped Jupiter or supplying terrorists with ships, weapons and intelligence and letting them do the dirty work.
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... or supplying terrorists with ships, weapons and intelligence and letting them do the dirty work.
As an aside, I like that the UEF is doing this too. Poor, poor gefs being used for dirty work by everyone.
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I wonder what the TEVs have planned for the GEF after Earth is secure.
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Initially? Not much, bringing Sol under control and its infrastructure to bear on churning out more TEI warships would probably be their primary concern.
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I wonder what the TEVs have planned for the GEF after Earth is secure.
Nothing. Let's be honest here: the GEF is not a security threat to either side, except for the war being a distraction.
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I meant more from a sociological perspective. Will GEF ideology be an alien concept to mainstream Terran society or could this actually be used to benefit the TEVs?
The Elders see the GEF mainly as a backup plan in the event of human extinction but in GTVA society where many people would live in artificial habitats could GEF expertise be useful in developing deep space colonies and outposts? The GTVA could also create their own versions of GEF societies in far flung systems to expand on the Elder's plans for survival.
Let's be honest here: the GEF is not a security threat to either side
Gigantic asteroids apart ;)
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Let's be honest here: the GEF is not a security threat to either side
Gigantic asteroids apart ;)
And nuclear warheads. They do have Warhammer and Ouster stocks. Those could do a lot of damage in terrorist hands.
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Provided the Tevs can do the fancy math necessary to plot a jump out to the Kuipler belt, I imagine they'll start patrolling areas controlled by the more militant sects.
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Gigantic asteroids apart ;)
If not for the war, do you honestly think we wouldn't see all the Solarii dropped at once to blow the rock? Or a GTVA battlegroup. The bottom line is that the asteroid only became a viable strategy because the war made it impossible to throw the kind of force necessary to ensure it was stopped without possibly being bushwhacked.
A peacetime fleet has no such constraint.
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Well the most militant GEF faction has been destroyed so I don't think it would be repeated (that example was just to show that the GEF still can cause damage to both sides) however if an asteroid that size was jumped into Earth's orbit then I don't think that there would be anything anyone could do about it. Even if they did destroy the thing the debris would still have enough mass to do severe damage to the surface - certainly enough to make the planet uninhabitable
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Gigantic asteroids apart ;)
If not for the war, do you honestly think we wouldn't see all the Solarii dropped at once to blow the rock? Or a GTVA battlegroup. The bottom line is that the asteroid only became a viable strategy because the war made it impossible to throw the kind of force necessary to ensure it was stopped without possibly being bushwhacked.
A peacetime fleet has no such constraint.
Actually, it's not just that. The briefing mentions that the reason why the Custos-X is the largest warship they can send is because the Solarises jump drives were not capable of making the transit before the asteroid entered subspace. Thus, the Fedayeen send the Vindicator in to do the job instead.
IIRC it also has partly to do with the Kuiper Belt being largely unnavigable by large warships as due to the weaker gravitational influence, which does something to stop big ships from using subspace as easily.
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I think because it's too far away from the sun?
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Indeed, as per the FreeSpace canon on subspace drives.
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If you want the exact quote,
First, an intrasystem jump can occur between two points in a star system. Most small, space-faring vessels are equipped with motivators capable of these short jumps. The presence of an intense gravitational field is required, prohibiting travel beyond the boundaries of a star system.
Although strict FS2 canon does not specify how far away from a star's gravity well you can jump and in what fashion subspace capability gets degraded, BP took the liberty to specify those unspecified areas.
For more information, see here (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Blue_Planet_intelligence_data#Subspace).
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Actually, it's not just that.
It is just that. If you could jump directly to atmospheric entry we wouldn't be having a war because no reasonable defense of a planetary body would be possible. (See also: the Siege of Vasuda Prime, in which the Lucifer apparently spent at least a couple hours closing on target.) There will be a transit period at the far end during which you can drop all the ordnance on the asteroid you want and blow it to gravel.
You're assuming limitations on the ability to respond but not the ability to deploy. This is a universe that hasn't elaborated on the latter, but has been pretty clear some sort of them exist.
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Actually, it's not just that.
It is just that. If you could jump directly to atmospheric entry we wouldn't be having a war because no reasonable defense of a planetary body would be possible. (See also: the Siege of Vasuda Prime, in which the Lucifer apparently spent at least a couple hours closing on target.) There will be a transit period at the far end during which you can drop all the ordnance on the asteroid you want and blow it to gravel.
You're assuming limitations on the ability to respond but not the ability to deploy. This is a universe that hasn't elaborated on the latter, but has been pretty clear some sort of them exist.
Ideally, we would strike the habitat with the full force of our Fleet. Unfortunately, subspace jumps depend on the local gravity well, and precise jumps to destinations so far from the Sun require hours to safely plot. Worse, the Gefs have seeded the area with gravity generators to hamper attackers.
It's not just that.
EDIT:
I assume the only reason that the GTVA doesn't just jump bombs into atmospheres is because they want to keep those planets.
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Worse, the Gefs have seeded the area with gravity generators to hamper attackers.
I assume the only reason that the GTVA doesn't just jump bombs into atmospheres is because they want to keep those planets.
Self-refuting going on here, you notice that right? Jumping too close to a gravity well is directly implied to be impossible here.
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What would sci-fi be without a lot of grey areas and dodgy physics? :)
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Although the plot could imply that the gravity generators are designed to pull large ships in close to their positions which would mean that any warship sent would exit subspace hundreds of clicks away from the target, rendering interception impossible.
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There's actually a lot of potential for fun fluff with subspace, but the team are remaining sensibly vague about that.
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Worse, the Gefs have seeded the area with gravity generators to hamper attackers.
I assume the only reason that the GTVA doesn't just jump bombs into atmospheres is because they want to keep those planets.
Self-refuting going on here, you notice that right? Jumping too close to a gravity well is directly implied to be impossible here.
Negative, it never states that - only that seeding the area with gravity generators makes a large subspace transit to an exact area impossible (with UEF technology, we do not know what the GTVAs abilities are.) This could mean a variety of things. Perhaps it just makes the jump much more difficult to calculate (too difficult to calculate in a sufficiently short amount of time) or it could be as you say, or it could be pull ships to their positions. Any of these are possibilities.
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Jumping in the atmosphere of a planet is impossible while keeping the integrity of the ship intact. Which you don't give two ****s about if you're sending an asteroid on a collision course, if it breaks apart it'll only do more damage on a more spread out area.
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It's not clear that the asteroid broke apart (in the failure debrief) due to a jump into the atmosphere - it may simply be that the Gefs were unable to engineer a subspace drive that could safely transit such an enormous mass.
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Going back to the total war issue for a second, didn't the brief (or pre brief segment) for the mission defending Rheza station state that the GTVA had activated their total war contingencies? I didn't read that as '"we're gonna kick you in the balls just this once" I read that as "going forward, all rules are now off the table". See the Carthage battlegroup's raid on asteroid civilian stations in Pawns on a Board of Bone.
In answer to the question about what I would say if I were a political leader in the GTVA?
"We're winning"
Honestly, from the Tev perspective there's not a lot to be doubting on at the moment. keep in mind that in Act Three we see a very select set of actions by a very elite group of pilots. I felt like the GTVA was getting absolutely stomped while I was playing it, but then I took a step back. At the end of the day, I feel like Steele is in an even better position then he was in at the end of WiH.
Lopez was predictable and had thus ceased to be an asset. He traded her outdated (albeit still capable) destroyer for two more, and CO's that aren't as easily exploitable.
The Tev populace doesn't know **** about the Fedayeen, Nagari, the Vishnans, the Great Darkness, the Sekret Project, or anything else. In a cold hard fleet on fleet numbers game, Steele has the UEF by the balls. Now he's just prepping to close the vice.
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Steele did just lose a destroyer, I don't think that could NOT effect his political power a little.
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It strengthened it. He was able to use the loss of the Carthage in order to basically take complete control over all operations in Sol, beyond even what he had prior.
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Steele did just lose a destroyer, I don't think that could NOT effect his political power a little.
From the broader GTVA perspective, the loss of the Carthage was the result of Lopez's incompetence, not Steele's command.
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Did Steele use the loss of the Carthage to gain the Vengeance and Phoenicia? I was under the impression that the Carthage was going to leave Sol as soon as it was fit to transit the node and that these were scheduled replacements. If the Pallas and Ilium are what you meant there is no confirmation that these are going to actually be used. (They could be diverted in the event of unforeseen circumstances or simply just be misinformation)
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One thing that I haven't seen discussed much is the losses to the SOC and much of Steele's intelligence infrastructure. If there is one thing that really will turn the tide of the war it is now the fact the Fedayeen can now work with near total freedom due to the SCO losing their best pilots during Eyes in the Storm, the loss of Steele's mole and the framing of Kostadin. Also Fedayeen influence in GEF society now that Kostadin is gone limits the TEVs ability to use the GEf as an ally.
Steele needs to rebuild his Intelligence assets ASAP.
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SOC is more than just an elite fighter squadron, just as the Fedayeen are way more than an elite fighter squadron. Assuming that the loss of a couple of highly specialized assets means the total loss of capability would be foolish.
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Not total loss of capacity but loss of momentum due to not being able to carry out covert intelligence gathering/fighter missions to the same scale/ability which would put them at a severe disadvantage to Fedayeen operatives. We have to see now what other assets Steele can call in.
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Umm, sorry, but I fail to see how the loss of a few fighters and pilots will affect standard HUMINT activities in Sol. Hell, the kind of splashy fighter actions we've seen SOC do in the games is probably only a very small part of the entirety of their activities. I mean, if I wanted to gather covert intelligence, I'd hijack a freighter, strap a sensor package onto its hull, and let it cruise through enemy territory. Hell, if I wanted to observe a known position, I can just park a ship with a sufficiently sensitive telescope a few lightminutes out and just take a look.
After EitS, SOC has lost the ability to easily do one specific set of missions, specifically those that can be handled best by sending a fighter wing. There are still plenty of fighter wings available, if push comes to shove. There are also only very few missions that SOC does that fall into that category.
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SOC are the elite though and in the time leading up to the main attack on Earth I would expect those pilots would have been utilised to best extent - identifying targets of opportunity, assassinations, surgical strikes, and generally keeping the pressure on the Fedayeen. The scope for such action would be now be drastically reduced without the skills those pilots possessed.
I wasn't just pilots they lost either, those troop transports would have been carrying operatives whose tasks would involve getting in to difficult places to acquire information and specialised fighting troops that would have been used to overpower garrisons in key installations.
SOC would of course continue to operate in Sol but I could imagine the effect to be akin to losing one of your hands. The SOC can still plan an operation but they may require regular forces to carry out some of the diffcult missions meaning that the chances of success are much lower.
I wasn't just talking about the SOC either, the other Intelligence assets we have seen Steele utilise were damaged during act3 (the GEF, his mole) and the Fedayeen have shown themselves to be his equal. Without SOC being able to occupy the Fedayeen's attentions then it may end up that he cannot stop the Fedayeen from destabilising his buildup and reducing his chances of victory at Earth.
Unless there are additional assets in place he can utilise - in which case my speculation is useless :)
(P.S E where the hell did I say losing the pilots would lead to a total loss of capacity? I said the damage done to all of what we have seen of Steele's intelligence infrastructure would give the Fedayeen freedom to operate, the SOC pilots were just one part of that.)
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Surgical strikes can be handled by standard fighter wings. You only need SOC wings for covert surgical strikes akin to the fedayeen first mission.
Also I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say he SOC is friggen huge. The GTVA is a large polity, and certainly in BP canon, possesses a fairly restive populace. In addition to a capable fleet it would be sheer lunacy for the Tevs to keep the SOC tiny. Half the reason they are so elite and experienced is because they get blooded on subversion missions a lot, or at least that's what I read into them from the back story.
I have to assume they operate on a similar level to the GTI in pre GTVA time, allthough post Silent Threat probably with a lot more oversight. But considering GTI possessed not one, but two capital ships for their exclusive use, and those are just the ones we saw, with, I might add, a full scale GTI rebellion taking place. A revolt by a significant portion of your forces should put a significant dent in the number of ships you can field, yet they could still field two orions that we personally saw.
I think the insinuation that losing a few fighter wings and some transports would cripple or seriously harm the spaceborne operations of the SOC to be laughably far fetched. Fighters are replaceable, and more SOC pilots can be rotated in from out system.
On the topic of the transports - were they loaded with SOC operatives? Or run of the mill marines? I honestly don't remember, and I'm not in the position to do the checking right now (wrong computer), but from what I remember of the mission that doesn't seem like the job for transport upon transport of specialized operatives. Elite cadres of marines sure, with a few specialists on board, yeah I can buy that. But how hard is it to secure a station against hostile boarders or its current inhabitants? That's exactly what marines are trained for, I don't see why a standard force of Tev marines couldn't have been used for that purpose. Again, the Tevs are well practiced at putting out regional bush fires, I expect their marine core is suitably large, disciplined, and competent.
SOC operations don't need to be purely SOC shows, and standard fleet elements can often (and I would be surprised if they didn't) directly support those operations. You don't need to know what the objective was if your orders are just 'hold this stations' or 'cover these fighters'. The Fedayeen and the Fed fleet work together now and then, such as the attack on the carthage, I don't see why the SOC and he Tev fleet would not. Just because the SOC had a hand in some mission element doesn't mean that every asset destroyed was an SOC asset - it doesn't even mean most of them were.
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The SOC may indeed be huge. The GTVA military certainly is and yet they can only maintain 4 destroyers in system on a long term basis. Given the threats that the GTVA face from alien races and internal division I hardily think that the SOC would keep the most of their forces in Sol. Also the attack is comming in less than two weeks can they really divert other assets to Sol in time to make a diference?
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I didn't say they maintained most of their operatives in Sol, I said any lost operatives are easily replaced.
And yeah, the attack is coming in a short time, which means that it probably doesn't matter that much anyways. I was just kind of addressing your point about the damage to Steele's intel stream, which i just don't think is as damaged as you claim.
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You kill, what, 20 fighters in EitS? I doubt most of those were SOC. I'd bet on just the 6 Nyxes, myself. You don't need SOC to escort transports.
Moreover, SOC pilots aren't necessarily the elite. You fly missions for SOC pretty early in FS2, if you'll recall.
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Moreover, SOC pilots aren't necessarily the elite. You fly missions for SOC pretty early in FS2, if you'll recall.
This is the most damning counterargument: assuming your experience in FS2 is typical (and really, it's all we've got to go on), SOC pilots are initially recruited on a part-time basis from the rank-and-file GTVA. It is abundantly clear by now that there is more than enough wiggle room for the team to explain away this supposed 'plot hole', so I don't really see the point in discussing it further.
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Where did anybody suggest a plot hole?
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He just did. :P
And there is no plot hole. SOC does special assignments through elite pilots supplemented by talented standard ones (Alpha 1 Jr.) (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Love_the_Treason...)
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Well, given the GTI rebellion, I could argue the Security Council's resistance to let SOC grow too large. While SOC did confirm the 'Paul Revere' cry that the Shivans are coming in FS2, how much more they contributed is (by nature) ambiguous. The first SOC loop only succeeded to a point where the freighter was captured. Aken escaped and we do rely on his monologues more than anything to discover his motives/ drive the plot.
I think I am more worried (in a good way) about facing more 'Evaluation Units' :shaking:
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He just did. :P
That was a reference, I'm asking for the referent.
And don't forget that GTI let Aken go as much as he escaped!
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Where did anybody suggest a plot hole?
...somehow in my head this discussion got mixed up and I thought it was yet another "why didn't such-and-such/how could such-and-such do X, it would have solved everything/it makes no sense".
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Whatever the case, I seriously doubt that Steele would commit forces in such a way that a single tactical defeat would cripple him.
But considering GTI possessed not one, but two capital ships for their exclusive use,
Three, since BP follows ST:R, plus the Hades.
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Steele being a former SOC guy himself, I suspect he hasn't skimped on the 'shadow war.' The SOC was able to deploy a full squadron of Pegasi during One Future and the Arcane is still out there at the very least. I wouldn't be surprised if they still had a significant fighter presence in the system, and I'm sure they have several more warships and ECM assets, not to mention operators on special missions.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the additional destroyers coming in Steele will have seven destroyers total right?
Would this be a decent general plan on what to do with them?
1-Guard the node/harass Neptune
1-Guard Steele's Jupiter infrastructure
1-Harass Martian forces
4-Attack Earth/Luna
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Shock jump a solaris.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the additional destroyers coming in Steele will have seven destroyers total right?
Would this be a decent general plan on what to do with them?
1-Guard the node/harass Neptune
1-Guard Steele's Jupiter infrastructure
1-Harass Martian forces
4-Attack Earth/Luna
This would work...except that Hecates pretty much suck against Solarises.
Calder absolutely rocked the GTD Hood, in Aristasia. It was not even close. ANY amount of slightly competent UEF fighter support turns a Hecate into an overly large and squishy landing bay.
Recall also that the UEF did not even need a destroyer to own Admiral Severanti's Hecate. They screwed Severanti over with...two frigates? It's been a while since I played that mission.
If not for the GTD Imperiuse, Lopez would have been absolutely and completely screwed at Saturn. This was not even close. Four frigates took on an entire battlegroup at Saturn, and if not for the Imperiuse, very little (if any) of Lopez' fleet would be left.
Let's fast forward to Lopez vs. the Feds, part 2, at Neptune. Again, we have a moderate-size frigate fleet taking on a much larger GTVA fleet, including a destroyer. An Orion brought up to the level of a Hecate is still not very good.
One destroyer at the node is a destroyer out of play. Instead, it might be more productive to send it to Neptune. When the Tevs show up at Neptune, it might suck to be on a frigate at Neptune, because they aren't going to commit much to Neptunian defense. This will be a close fight.
One destroyer at Jupiter is also a destroyer out of play.
If a Hecate shows up at Mars, Netreba will ruin their day in every way a Tev's day can be ruined. Netreba doesn't even need to commit the Eris. It has been proven time and time again that a small UEF frigate force vs. a Hecate ends very badly for the Hecate.
Earth is where things will get hairy, but the Feds still have a damn good chance even with four destroyers on them. Let's say that Steele commits Serkr Team, the Imperiuse, and the Atreus, all at Earth. In Tenebra's first mission, we discover that Earth's bomber force is a deterrent for Steele, and he needs excellent pilots to screen against the UEF bomber fleet. No part of this equation has changed - Earth still has the Solaris, all of 1st fleet's frigates, and a bomber fleet so large, it's a deterrent against Steele - he knows it's a deathtrap.
Now, maybe with the Imperiuse covering him...things could change. One salvo from the Imperiuse and Serkr Team would certainly have Byrne in dire need of some assistance. The fate of this battle will be decided by how well the UEF can disarm the Imperiuse, followed by Serkr Team. Byrne has a very good chance of losing this engagement. You can count on Calder leaping at the chance to blow up the Atreus, especially with Earth's massed bomber support.
The wildcard in all of this is Netreba:
Add Netreba into the Steele-Byrne-Calder engagement, and you now have all three solarises in one place, two of which are guaranteed to be near full hull integrity. There is no way that Serkr Team, the Imperiuse, and the Atreus can all survive that and retreat to Jupiter intact. Remove any element of that group, and Steele loses his giant stick of doom.
Add Netreba to Luna defense (or wherever the spare two Hecates happen to be), and you end up with two dead Hecates. Let's watch Steele try and put a positive spin on that.
The only way for the GTVA to overwhelm the Feds and guarantee victory Steele's way, is to add entire battlegroups, or to add more Raynors/Titans.
If Severanti were still in control of things, then the UEF would be in much more trouble from the arrival of more Hecates. Over the coming months, they would be able to slowly grind 2nd fleet to pieces, and bring Netreba down to just a handful of Frigates. Then they can make a strategic push against Mars, knowing that Byrne will still sit in Earth orbit.
In reality, I think Steele getting extra Hecates is like dropping nuclear submarines in the middle of an air force base. They are not going to mesh with his command style. I think someone high up in the GTVA wants him to fail. What's the easiest way to defeat an offensive berserker of an admiral? Give him a bunch of squishy targets he has to constantly babysit.
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The only way for the GTVA to overwhelm the Feds and guarantee victory Steele's way, is to add entire battlegroups, or to add more Raynors/Titans.
What, you thought the Tevs sent those Hecates alone ? They're obviously full battlegroups.
In reality, I think Steele getting extra Hecates is like dropping nuclear submarines in the middle of an air force base. They are not going to mesh with his command style. I think someone high up in the GTVA wants him to fail. What's the easiest way to defeat an offensive berserker of an admiral? Give him a bunch of squishy targets he has to constantly babysit.
Haha no.
Giving Steele Hecate-lead battlegroups is giving him more Deimoses, more AWACSes and a ****ton of fresh fighter and bomber squadrons, just to list the obvious. Pretty sure that meshes quite well with his command style.
And that is assuming those battlegroups don't have Chimera or Diomedes complements.
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Yeah, it should be noted that Destroyers are only engaged when they're letting themselves be engaged. Keeping Hecates safe is easy, as long as you're not deploying them into direct combat; when they're sitting somewhere with charged drives playing airport, they're incredibly effective, while some of their screening elements can be detached and used in combat.
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That is, as long as they don't let their fighters' subspace jumps get tracked back to base, like the Meridian did. There's only so many times a Hecate can avoid abushes with one jump charge.
But that's minute detail when Steele has enough forces to both cover those Hecates and overwhelm the Feds. Or, to be more precise, has more than enough forces to tie the Feds up in their subspace chess so they can't spare anything to try and ambush a Hecate.
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If those Hecates come associated with full battlegroups, then yes, the UEF is completely screwed. They'd better pull project Shambhalla out of their butts and...do something spectacular and outlandish. Like supernova all the GTVA stars, or turn the Shivans/Vishnans loose on the GTVA, or cause some other kind of existential catastrophe.
However, we know that in War in Heaven, a destroyer does not equal a battlegroup. The Orestes and Temeraire were two destroyers in one battlegroup. The commander of the GTD Imperiuse is a rear admiral or something, of lower rank than Steele, thus strongly inferring that the Imperiuse does not have its own battlegroup, and is part of Steele's.
It's never mentioned which battlegroup the GTD Hood belonged to, but since it appeared with Serkr Team instead of its own mini-fleet of Deimoses and such, I would assume it's part of Steele's battlegroup.
I'll agree that a ****ton of fresh fighter and bomber squadrons would serve Steele well.
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It should be assumed that Destroyers are always deployed with escorts and almost never travel alone. Hood's normal escorts can be assumed to be deployed elsewhere, with Serkr being substituted (In addition, note that the majority of the Hood's air wing was deployed in other operations by the time of Aristeia).
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However, we know that in War in Heaven, a destroyer does not equal a battlegroup. The Orestes and Temeraire were two destroyers in one battlegroup. The commander of the GTD Imperiuse is a rear admiral or something, of lower rank than Steele, thus strongly inferring that the Imperiuse does not have its own battlegroup, and is part of Steele's.
What? Delegation tends to work a little differently in the navy. Admirals command fleets, they do not command ships. Captains command ships. You are absolutely wasting an admiral if he/she is only in command of a single ship, and not an entire battlegroup (or a decent portion of one). At the same time, you are wasting a captain if your admiral is trying to captain the ship he/she has taken as his/her flag vessel.
That said, when the nominal battlegroup commander (Steele) is in command of the entire theater (a lot more than one battlegroup), it makes a certain amount of logical sense to put your next ranking officer in charge of the battlegroup for day to day activities.
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Destroyers are commanded by Captains who are responsible for actually fighting the ship. They usually are flagships for flag officers in command of the Destroyer and its associated escorts and fighter wings.
Now, there are some Admirals who like to take a hands-on approach in running their flagship (Steele, for example), but it should be noted that this is generally not a very successful strategy (Note how Atreus has one of the worst personnel turnover rates in the GTVA fleet).
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Note how Atreus has one of the worst personnel turnover rates in the GTVA fleet
Interesting that means that Steele may not be popular with his own officers. Could the saviour of the UEF actually be the deck hand that sticks the knife in Steele's back because he lost his boyfriend in one of Steele's "tactical victories"? That would be a hell of a curveball :p
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That... no, that would be an absolutely appalling way to deal with Steele.
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But it would be so artfully done.
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But it would be so artfully done.
ahahahah!
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And battuta wins this thread.
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"Admiral Steele. We've had it with these goddamn shifts. We are defecting to the federation and taking the ship with us."
The admiral allowed the mutineers to take the Atreus with them, as he left the ship in a transport, he smiled.
As the ship jumped towards Earth where the Solaris was stationed, SSSteele muttered to himself: "Poor bastards forgot about the dozen Meson bombs loaded in that ship... all set to the remote trigger I just pressed."
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Stargate, your list of engagements where small frigate forces rocked destroyers were all built from the ground up to favor the UEF.
In all three cases, the Tev's were on the defensive, and not attempting to offer battle. There is a world of difference between hitting the Meridian or the Carthage with its pants down and having one of those ships and its battle group actively hunting you. The calculus of the situation changes from 'hold until your drives charge' to 'light those bastards up' which means more assets are likely committed to the action. Take Delenda Est for example. If that had been a tev operation, the UEF would have gotten creamed. One diomedes jumped in between the Yangstze and the Indus as the Leander and Legionary closed would be game over for both of them. Two deimoses head on, with both of the Diomedes' broadside's ripping into them? The plasma fire would rip them up like a hot knife through butter if they tried to continue the engagement.
The Tevs would take some losses undoubtedly, but the key ingredient in the victory you mentioned was initiative and the element of surprise. An enemy that is reacting to you is infinitely less dangerous then an enemy you are reacting to.
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It's never mentioned which battlegroup the GTD Hood belonged to, but since it appeared with Serkr Team instead of its own mini-fleet of Deimoses and such, I would assume it's part of Steele's battlegroup.
IIRC, the Hood was part of the Meridian's battlegroup, and took over as BG flagship after Post-Meridian.
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A partial order of battle is already located in the "list of forces stationed in Sol" thread.
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I thought most of Meridian battlegroup now taken to reinforce Steele's forces. Unless you are too focused, I don't think you can miss the Hood in Everything is Permitted and in the finale.
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Nearly the entire 4th fleet, with a couple of exceptions (such as the GTCv Arcane) are known to have left Sol (I believe there's also an Aeolus that the player encounters too.) That includes the 13th battlegroup, under the Meridian and the 16th battlegroup under the Requiem.
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Shock jump a solaris.
Is your position then that the GTVA should concentrate on clearing up the tactical situation before making a major strategic move towards Earth?
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Sorry for the necro, but will the changing of Raynors to Erebuses make any difference in what you would do if you were a GTVA commander in Sol?
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The model and the name are changing. There's not an actual change between Raynors and Erebuses in terms of strategic and tactical impact.
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So there's still the same type/amount of turrets/beams?
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So there's still the same type/amount of turrets/beams?
Not exactly. But the general role of the ship hasn't changed, neither has the way in which it is deployed. We were able to change the weapons loadout and distribution because the Erebus had only very few appearances as a combat vessel in the released missions of AoA and WiH; the Titan will be much closer to the original design because we really don't want to spend long rebalancing all the missions in which the Temeraire makes an appearance ;)