Author Topic: What should the GTVA's strategy be?  (Read 166998 times)

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Re: What should the GTVA's strategy be?
Wait... I thought the whole point of the war was that the GTVA was scared that Ubuntu would turn the entirety of humanity into hippie pacifists that would get slaughtered by the Shivans, and that the industry was just a bonus. But I could be wrong; its been a while since I've read the fluff... =p

 

Offline The E

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Re: What should the GTVA's strategy be?
There are several reasons why the war is happening.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: What should the GTVA's strategy be?
That was a factor too, forgot to list it. Although the "hippie pacifist" part is certainly a little exaggerated.

What is sure is that the Ubuntu belief system, and the UEF government system, while working like a charm in the confined borders of Sol, is inadapted to rule, economically, the much vaster territories of the GTVA. And, on the military front, the UEF, while not "pacifist" by any meaningful extent (you don't build three Solarises and superior fleet bombers for policing actions), isn't ready and/or willing, from the GTVA point of view, to make the sacrifices required to ensures the survival of humanity under a constant Shivan threat.

The ultimate goal of the GTVA is defending themselves against the next Shivan incursion. Had the UEF been committed to this objective in a comparable manner to the GTVA, a pacific solution might have been considered. Since it was not deemed the case, the GTVA is back to square one : conquering Sol to get their hands on the enormous industrial and logistical value of the system, in order to consolidate themselves in their original goal.

EDIT:
When the Sol portal was first opened, probes launched and data from the UEF public communications received, the Tevs had analysts working days and nights to figure out what was the best course of action to follow, from political, military and economic points of view. Keep in mind that their solution was originally to seize control of Sol in a single, masterly-organized manoeuvre with the 14th battlegroup, not to engage in a long, costly, system-scale war. I am pretty sure that, had the GTVA known the situation was going to escalate the way it did, they would have had to consider other options. However, after the AoA events, it was too late to come back on that decision.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 10:15:19 am by MatthTheGeek »
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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: What should the GTVA's strategy be?
So the question you're asking is what would have happened in WW2 if we had openly adopted a policy of leaving Japan for latter while we devoted the bulk of our strength to defeating a country that possessed a green-water navy that lacked the range to pose any real threat to our own territory?
It wasn't really a question I asked. It was meant as a rethorical question to clarify, why I think you can't equate the current real political situation, with the metaphor Mars gave, or the UEF-GTVA situation.
Though I like the way you put it, since that also applys to the War in Heaven, to a high degree. While I wouldn't count the UEF fleets as "green-water navy", with their high maintanance and many ammunition-based weapons they can't possibly mount an effective invasion of GTVA space, even if they ever manage to drive the invaders out of Sol. So the only threats the UEF pose to the GTVA are psycological, economical and political in nature or constructed reasons like the UEF undermining the Human races ability to resist the Shivans (not sure if we can count that under psycological).

 
Re: What should the GTVA's strategy be?
My question was also rhetorical -- the strategy I described was exactly the one we did employ in WWII. I don't think real-world analogies are entirely perfect here, but the one Mars put forward is guilty of begging the question. He describes a hypothetical situation on modern Earth that is as close as possible to the one in WiH, presupposes that our opinion would be identical to the one harbored by the GTVA's population during WiH, and uses this to justify the opinion harbored by the GTVA's population during WiH. Since he's making an assumption about how people in the United States would react to a set of conditions, I think it's fair to provide counter-arguments that cite how Americans have reacted to similar conditions in the past. The situations aren't identical, but they're close enough to form starting points for analysis. If we're supposed to ignore historical context, then what's the point of Mars bringing modern Earth into this in the first place?

I think calling the UEF a green-water navy is, if anything, generous. They're capable of putting up a good fight in their home system, but there's debate as to whether any of their capital ships -- even their Solarises -- have interystem jump capability.

 

Offline The E

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Re: What should the GTVA's strategy be?
Quote
but there's debate as to whether any of their capital ships -- even their Solarises -- have interystem jump capability.

There really isn't. Because they do.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 
Re: What should the GTVA's strategy be?
Quote
but there's debate as to whether any of their capital ships -- even their Solarises -- have interystem jump capability.

There really isn't. Because they do.
I thought that they did, and I've argued as much in the past. I didn't realize it had been confirmed, so thank you.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: What should the GTVA's strategy be?
I don't think it has been confirmed -- I don't want to turn this into Star Wars here but anything we say in the forums is secondary to what actually appears in the campaigns, tech entries, and fluff material on the website.

 

Offline redsniper

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Re: What should the GTVA's strategy be?
Inter-system Solares, huh? Beta Aq here I come! Prepare your anus, GTVA, Laporte's bringing the RAEG!
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Offline Mars

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Re: What should the GTVA's strategy be?
I am in fact guilty of that in the metaphor - my point, however, wasn't one of "of course the GTVA feels this way or that way" it was one of "it is perfectly possible that the population is in severe unrest and the dispatch of another capital ship will spark the powder keg"

EDIT:

I get the impression that Solaris destroyers still aren't as long endurance as Titans and Raynors?

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: What should the GTVA's strategy be?
Of course not. They probably are able to carry enough supplies to operate longer than your average Karuna, but like all UEF ships, they requires more logistic drain than any Tev ship of comparable size, Capella-era or newgen. Just look at the amount of Apocalypses and Gattler rounds a Solaris spews in a few minutes of combat.
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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline Mars

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Re: What should the GTVA's strategy be?
Well, I suspect flak cannons aren't particularly efficient.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: What should the GTVA's strategy be?
Ammo is one thing. Fuel is another, and maintenance/spare parts yet another. Tev ships are most likely less demanding in all those three areas.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: What should the GTVA's strategy be?
Well, I suspect flak cannons aren't particularly efficient.

Fortunately, they aren't mounted on either the Titan or the Raynor.  Pulse cannons and beams probably don't need much ammo, if any.  Their torpedoes, while powerful, are only tertiary weapons (and might as well not be there, considering UEF point defenses).  GTVA ships are very diverse in their weaponry.

On a somewhat related note, can the Supernova be used as an SSM?  Being 5 times as powerful as the Eos, it could be quite effective.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 08:28:48 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: What should the GTVA's strategy be?
Well, I suspect flak cannons aren't particularly efficient.

Fortunately, they aren't mounted on either the Titan or the Raynor.  Pulse cannons and beams probably don't need much ammo, if any.  Their torpedoes, while powerful, are only tertiary weapons (and might as well not be there, considering UEF point defenses).  GTVA ships are very diverse in their weaponry.

On a somewhat related note, can the Supernova be used as an SSM?  Being 5 times as powerful as the Eos, it could be quite effective.

in BP canon, beams and IIRC pulse/blobs are all plasma.  which means you're expending a ****LOAD of plasma "ammunition" every time you fire a beam.  considerably less for blobs/pulses, but still physically expelling mass.
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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: What should the GTVA's strategy be?
Yes, but the "ammunition" for plasma would be gas, which later get's super-heated. And gasses can be compressed. Missiles and bullets can't. So while the GTVA still uses ammunition in a way, theirs would take up far less room per shot than the UEF weapons I think.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: What should the GTVA's strategy be?
The GTVA could even in theory carry ammo as fuel and fuel as ammo, depending on what they're using, and you can compress gas to liquid or even solid. Metallic hydrogen storage. All the ammo/fuel you'll ever need.
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Re: What should the GTVA's strategy be?
Yes, but the "ammunition" for plasma would be gas, which later get's super-heated. And gasses can be compressed. Missiles and bullets can't. So while the GTVA still uses ammunition in a way, theirs would take up far less room per shot than the UEF weapons I think.

I'd agree, but with the frequency that flak gets fired out they must still have a large amount of conventional firepower on board. Plus, I believe in the mission with the Pesdjet there is a communique that says the Deimos took a shot to it's ammo storage right when it blows up, so they've got a least enough to cause a big explosion if hit in the right place.

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: What should the GTVA's strategy be?
A flak has nothing near the fire-rate of UEF gattlers. And you seem to seriously underestimate the size of UEF missiles. Most apocalypse are the size of a fighter, with the Narayana's being bigger than most bombers!

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: What should the GTVA's strategy be?
let's not forget how ****ing big the ships themselves are.  there's a LOT of room for storage in there.
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