Author Topic: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi  (Read 103369 times)

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
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then it's from an artist who is too afraid to move out from under the shadow of previous artists, recycling overused tropes and unwilling to embrace something new.

I disagree with this in the context of The Last Jedi, which is not at all afraid to move things in quite a few new directions with Rey and Kylo Ren in particular (and indeed the entire "Last Jedi" plot).

And I do feel that "Powerful political faction trying to return to an idealized image of what once was", as is the First Order, never really ceases to be relevant, but here it is used in particular to contrast both Luke and Rey's motivations: The First Order wants to return to "what once was*", Luke wants to burn it all down, whilst Rey takes the old (or, well, steals it from under Luke's nose but okay) and strives to build upon it in a better direction. It takes three distinct approaches to our world: The New Order's regressivism, Luke's radicalism, and Rey's incrementalism, and clearly picks sides for Rey.

*or, more accurately - what they thought once was, as Kylo Ren still worships Darth Vader as if he never turned...

@The_E: I feel like neo-nazis aren't really as good an analogy for the First Order as the nazis themselves: I would instead propose that The First Order in this canon is the Nazis to the Empire's Kaiserreich: Clearly capable of destruction, far more technologically advanced, but not nearly as capable on military matters.

 

Offline Snarks

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Oh? Then why are you watching Star Wars?

What you are missing, I think, is that both TFA and TLJ are commentaries on Star Wars as a cultural phenomenon. There's also some other messages in there, about how we need to resist the fascists and their fanboys, how we need to have hope and make hope even when it seems we can't have any, but the core of TFA and TLJ is about Star Wars. TFA is, very intentionally, a sort of retread of A New Hope: It retells that story with slightly rejiggered roles not just to serve as an entry point for contemporary kids, but also as a nostalgia boost for people like us who saw the original films as kids. Han says, in TFA, "It's real. All of it.", and at that point, he's talking to you, the middle-aged viewer and is telling you that yes, Star Wars is still magic, can be magic again, even after all that prequel nonsense.
TLJ, in its rejection of several of the oh so important plot hooks TFA set up, is saying "Yes, we can have that magic back, but we shouldn't try to remake the old. Instead, we need to rebuild it, excise the flaws that one George Lucas put into it in the 70s and 90s, and make it matter to us, as we are right now.

I suppose being a millennial who didn't watch Star Wars back in the day discounts me from the intended audience then. I watched all of Star Wars within the last 2 years. I can appreciate the original trilogy for being the first successful space opera film, but otherwise thought it was just "ok" in the end. So for me, there never was any magic.

By the way, I watched Star Wars because people just won't stop talking about it, and generally speaking, it is within human norms to share interests, including things such as talking about movies everyone in the group has seen.

I would argue that imperialistic fascism is a relevant topic for today, purely based on how much of it seems to be making a resurgence lately, but that's neither here nor there.

Fair. This is outside the scope of this discussion, although I maintain that is a very relevant factor in how viewers perceive the work.

I think that a film about how the bad guys are a menace, yes, but an ultimately pathetic and weak one is a good message if we look at current politics around us. Hux is a buffoon, caught up in cosplaying as something intimidating he vaguely remembers from his history lessons. Kylo Ren is a mess of anxiety and parental issues, who has retreated into a power fantasy (urged on by a father figure that is in turns abusive and nurturing; the very image of a really toxic relationship there). We are asked to laugh at Hux and empathize with (but not exactly forgive or let go) Kylo, and I don't really see what's wrong with that. Neither of these characters are as intimidating or formidable as Tarkin or Vader were, sure, but that's the point. It's not a flaw in the movies or their writing that these people don't seem as grand as the old villains: That they aren't on that same level despite making every attempt at it (just like certain tiki-torch wielding idiots aren't on the same level as the people they're emulating, yet still a thing we need to take serious and combat lest they get real power) is their tragedy.

Again: TLJ and TFA are movies about Star Wars, about how we've talked about Star Wars over the years and how these films have shaped our expectations and realities. If the prequels as a whole were a deconstruction of the Jedi mythos as set up in the original films (which is a theory that isn't without merit), this new trilogy is shaping up to be a reconstruction of it, an attempt to give Star Wars its mythological qualities back that got lost in all the midichlorians and trade federations and bouncy ball Yodas. As commercial artistic endeavours go, this is much more valid than most other ways I could think of to continue the Star Wars saga.

There is a bit of dissonance here when we make that comparison, along with a portrayal that I feel betrays the comparison it wants to make. If the argument is something along the lines of a little bit of evil, even if seemingly less competent than the grand evils of the old days, is a threat and must guarded against, then a rebuilding of the prequel would make more sense. Why not emphasize how fragile and vulnerable the New Republic is to corruption, nepotism, and economic hardship? Why build up this whole First Order? When I look around at the politics around me, I see disgruntled people trying to navigate a world that they don't understand anymore, desperate to the point that they turn to naive and misguided beliefs. I see misinformation from all sides, where everyone thinks they're right (and to a degree, they all have a point) but no one is willing to reach out and reconcile for truth.

But I suppose if the real intent is commentary on Star Wars its impact on people and all these themes about the socio-political climate is secondary or even tertiary to the film, then I'd just have to say it's not for me.

Quote
If we want to argue that the new trilogy is good art, then it needs be relevant to the context of its time period

No. Good art doesn't need to be relevant in the context of its own, or in fact any, time period. Whether or not it is is a factor in how popular a given work is on release or afterwards, but popularity and goodness aren't exactly related.

I'd argue all art is a product of its environment, and that appreciation of art requires some environmental context on the part of the viewer. This is why art tends to get aggregated into different eras. Sure, some works might not fit exactly, but applying that to Star Wars would be bizarre given that is practically a metric for contemporary pop culture. In fact, the argument that the new trilogy plays on the previous film is entirely a contextual argument. I'm trying to imagine what that would even be like.

Nowhere did I discuss popularity as a factor. I have a different can of worms that I won't open in regards to how I think the film sold itself to increase viewership at the expense of pacing and flow.

If we take the position that the arcing turbo lasers and not B-17 bombers are all intentional callbacks to WW2, then what exactly is it invoking? How does this tie into the intended themes and direction of the modern films?

I disagree with this in the context of The Last Jedi, which is not at all afraid to move things in quite a few new directions with Rey and Kylo Ren in particular (and indeed the entire "Last Jedi" plot).

And I do feel that "Powerful political faction trying to return to an idealized image of what once was", as is the First Order, never really ceases to be relevant, but here it is used in particular to contrast both Luke and Rey's motivations: The First Order wants to return to "what once was*", Luke wants to burn it all down, whilst Rey takes the old (or, well, steals it from under Luke's nose but okay) and strives to build upon it in a better direction. It takes three distinct approaches to our world: The New Order's regressivism, Luke's radicalism, and Rey's incrementalism, and clearly picks sides for Rey.

Sure, I can somewhat agree to this, but I'm judging the work on its merit as a whole. Maybe if Rian Johnson started this from the beginning, we wouldn't have The First Order, a republic that gets wiped out instantly, yet another deathstar, or the resistance being a thing again. But that's not how it turned out, and I'm writing a critique of the work and not about what-ifs. I'm not so sure about attaching those ideas behind each of the factions. If it were true, I don't feel the films did an adequate job of supporting those notions. IIRC, Kylo Ren is also part of the bandwagon to destroy everything about the past, which puts him in Luke's camp then no? Then there's the question of why we even have that whole casino planet segment, or what is the significance of Finn as a character in relation to all of this.

 
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Oh, I really don't like the Casino segment. In a lot of ways the Rebel part of the film seems rushed compared to the (imo very strong) Jedi part of the film. I do think there's a lot of growth for Finn as a character (The Rebellion turning from a cause he doesn't believe in, via a cause he wants to die for, into a cause he wants to live for), but a lot of that feels a bit first draft, and it takes a backseat to the Jedi stuff (and in a lot of ways is seperate from it).
« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 01:11:11 am by -Joshua- »

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
It'll be interesting to see how sales of the DVD go compared to The Force Awakens. It's probably still too early to compare yet. I can't find anything anyway on that yet with a quick Google, though it has blown away sales on the other DVDs released this year.

I see that it's been bombed on Amazon. 39% 5* reviews, 34% 1* reviews.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I see that it's been bombed on Amazon. 39% 5* reviews, 34% 1* reviews.

Which only goes to show the flaw with things like Amazon, Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes. If a film is that divisive then a score around 50% is probably unrepresentative of most people's experience of the film. Either they liked it a lot more, or a lot less.
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Offline Lorric

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I see that it's been bombed on Amazon. 39% 5* reviews, 34% 1* reviews.

Which only goes to show the flaw with things like Amazon, Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes. If a film is that divisive then a score around 50% is probably unrepresentative of most people's experience of the film. Either they liked it a lot more, or a lot less.
At least you can dig into the written reviews to find the truth though. And you can see that disparity of 5s and 1s immediately. Most films will be served quite well by the system, but those that aren't aren't completely failed either.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Yeah, there is that.

Still, I'm not convinced that anyone is basing their decision to buy or not buy The Last Jedi based on its score on Amazon.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
What they are sure to do is they'll help a total new batch of patreon funded wave of youtube videos telling us how right we are to still hate Last Jedi because it's all ruined, it's all ruined forever, curse you Disney, etc., etc., etc.

  
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I appreciate your opinion and would like to subscribe to your youtube channel.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I don't think these films are as complex as the fans are making out.
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Offline WeatherOp

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Watched it for the first time last night and I'll rate it just above all three prequels.

Firstly, you could have cut half of the movie length and not missed a beat. Far far too much filler.

Secondly you could drive a bus through the plot holes. How It Should Have Ended either does or will have a field day with it.

Thirdly, the "flying woman" space scene to avoid using spoilers has passed the "NOOOO" scene as the dumbest scene in all of a Star Wars by a bit. That was completely idiotic and we all busted into laughter when it happened.  We all joked through the rest of the movie that you can't kill the witch.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 08:47:19 am by WeatherOp »
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Offline The E

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Can you point out the plotholes without linking to a YouTube rant longer than the film?

I am genuinely curious about this; I consider myself an attentive viewer, and yet, none of the flaws this film has register as a plot hole to me.
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Offline WeatherOp

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
YOU GUYS. "How it should have ended" did The Last Jedi and it's amazing.


That is absolutely awesome.
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Offline WeatherOp

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Can you point out the plotholes without linking to a YouTube rant longer than the film?

I am genuinely curious about this; I consider myself an attentive viewer, and yet, none of the flaws this film has register as a plot hole to me.

I wrote it too quick, it's more of just dumb perfect situations. It suffered from the 2012 effect of everything falling perfectly in line every single time for the main characters to survive at the absolute last possible second.
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Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I don't hate TLJ. I'm glad they did some new things here and there. (I actually love the hyperspace scene.) However, it's currently one of my least favorite Star Wars movies. My biggest problems with TLJ are as follows...

1. Rian Johnson wrote a subversive plot for the sake of being subversive like he's some Star Wars visionary. Some subversiveness could have worked. He took it too far, IMO, which leads to all the rest of my points. Being subversive is a tool to make a great artistic narrative. Subversion, itself, is not a great artistic narrative... and Rian is a mediocre director at best for thinking that it is. I don't think Rian fully grasps what he did with the narrative and yet he's been handed the keys to the next trilogy.
2. Rian disregarded everything about Luke's character for the sake of being subversive. I fully believe he could have done basically the same movie without turning Luke into an old asshat.
3. WTF was with the whole "master codebreaker" plot? This whole sequence is stupid because the characters are being stupid. Also it did nothing for the overall movie except give Fin and *shudder* Rose something to do.
4. Hux was also turned into an dumbass to make the whole "prank call" bit work. Whatever. Not awful, but certainly not interesting.
5. I actually agree that those bombers in the intro were super stupid. They have Y-Wings. Use those. I was sitting there facepalming when I saw TLJ thinking this exactly. Why are they using these slow, paper-thin bombers when they have Y-Wings? For "art" I guess... Ugh. Seems more like it was a necessary setup to *shudder* Rose.
6. *shudder* Rose. Just Rose... and loooooooove... and awkward kisses.. and ugh.
7. I dunno if JJ intended for Rey to be a Mary Sue, but thanks to Rian, she's pretty much there.

8. Finally, and most importantly... Rian has completely written out everything that was interesting in the overarching plot (again for the stupid sake of being subversive). I find none of the new characters compelling anymore. Rey is already basically a Jedi Master. This whole Resistance VS First Order thing feels like it has no stakes at all. I find myself apathetic towards everything that could be in Ep9... and that's the biggest problem. TLJ did not leave me longing for more Star Wars. Plot holes, mary sues, or whatever is or isn't in TLJ doesn't matter. What matters is that I'm no longer invested. And I'm definitely not interested enough in this vision to go see whole Rian Johnson trilogy over the next decade. Ep9, is going to have to ****ing blow me away to get me to reinvest at this point.. but even then, I have no guarantees that Rian isn't going to just write out everything that JJ puts in again. Star Wars has no plan other than make $$$. At least George wanted to really tell a narrative in order to make that $$$.

Additionally, don't fall for the trap. Disney's narrative around TLJ has been that we need to "move on" to new things in Star Wars (I agree!) and let the past die. That message is a great business/marketing move for TLJ. Of course, in the greater context it's just that. Disney is now releasing Solo, very much not a "move on" and "let the past die" strategy. My point in this paragraph is that Star Wars is currently in corporate hands and there's no one who really cares about the vision of the franchise overseeing it. It's currently hopping between whatever director is hired and the reason why I should invest in these movies changes with each and it never has anything to do with the narrative or the characters. It's always about it being "Star Wars" and, more often than not, "nostalgia".

The only reason, at this point, that I'll give Ep9 a chance is because it's Star Wars. That's the biggest problem.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 09:36:32 am by mjn.mixael »
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Offline Scotty

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Cite your sources for Point #2.  Legends canon sources are disqualified for lack of standing.

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
C'mon, Scotty... don't be like that. Don't try to take a single sentence and use it as a way to prove my entire thought process wrong. This isn't an objective argument, but a discussion about a piece or artwork. I'm allowed to think the film is poorly written by a director that's way to proud that he discovered how to be subversive. The film was practically winking at the audience by the end when it was being subversive. I can only imagine that in Ep10, we're going to go full meta and Rian is going to subvert your expectations of subversion by not being subversive.

Also, I don't need sources to share my opinion, thank you very much. Luke, in TLJ, is no longer a hero who earned my respect and interest... now he's a lightsaber-throwing, whiny-pants. As I recall, he grew out of being a whiny-pants in the OT.

You're allowed to disagree. You can think Luke is a great/interesting character in TLJ, that's fine. I don't.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 01:49:10 pm by mjn.mixael »
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I don't get how like could force project himself non materially but leave a set of cufflinks or whatever it was for darth emo to find.
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I don't get how like could force project himself non materially but leave a set of cufflinks or whatever it was for darth emo to find.

I don't know if it was in the theatrical version or not, 'cause I don't remember it. But I watched the movie again a few reels ago and noticed that Han's dice disappear right after Darth Emo picks them up.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I'm not a fan of him being able to interact with them.   Nor Yoda projecting lightning either.  If they can do that when dead then I am aghast as to why an army of Dedi (deliberate play on words) aren't conquering evil with lightning storms.
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

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That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
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