Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => Wings of Dawn => WoD Archive => Topic started by: Legate Damar on August 31, 2012, 11:54:06 am
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I was just wondering, is it possible that the Terran-Cyrvan war was an analogy for the 2003 Iraq war?
I mean think about it - a powerful, advanced military launches an invasion of a weaker, less advanced government, with the intent to disarm them and install their own form of government, because they do not trust the leaders of this government with the weapons they have. And it was mentioned in the tech room that many civilians on the Cyrvan side did not support the war, which is similar to how many Americans were against the Iraq war. Also after the war, there were groups of LSF Terrans who liked the CSA, and groups that did not, similar to how the opinion of the US is polarized among Iraqis and other Middle Easterners. Both sides also have a tradition of a monotheistic God, but the details are different (Feryaa vs. Terran religions, Christianity vs. Islam). Also some Terran pilots were known to deliberately crash their ships into CSA ships during the war (suicide bombers?).
You could go even further and say that the Cyrvans are meant to be a parody of the United States in general. Many people consider them to be arrogant (as some foreigners think all Americans think the world revolves around them), their government makes a habit of interfering with other civilizations, ostensibly for their own benefit, just like the US government does to other countries. Their military is the most advanced and powerful around, and they are quite serious about their monotheistic religion, which most of the population follows. The Cyrvans also had a civil war in the past, in which one side clearly won and the government was reunited, just like the US. And one of the factions in the US Civil War was known as the Confederate States of America, or CSA.
Is all of this just coincidence? :nervous:
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I was just wondering, is it possible that the Terran-Cyrvan war was an analogy for the 2003 Iraq war?
No.
And one of the factions in the US Civil War was known as the Confederate States of America, or CSA.
Amusingly, I only learned about this recently (a few months ago through wikipedia).
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Ha, nice catch. Even if didn't intended it, it really comes off like that when put this way. Funny thing, during WoD development, I've had an idea for WoD2 involving a situation suspiciously similar to Japanese attack on US during WWII, and another one based on the Cold War :) (they were not very good ideas though, so nothing came out of them). I guess Cyrvans share so many similarities with US that they're attracting such analogies.
Though let's face it, any sufficiently powerful empire may follow such scenario. With power usually comes arrogance and meddling with others affairs, and with technological superiority come unusual and desperate enemy tactics. As for religions, they'll always clash, as long as there's more than one.
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EDIT: Word of God:
I was just wondering, is it possible that the Terran-Cyrvan war was an analogy for the 2003 Iraq war?
No.
I'll try to explain a bit away here since I gues the similiarites don't exist as explictly as you state them...
less advanced government
"advanced government" hmmm... This implies that there is a certain evolution of governments... while a succession or a cicle of certain state types has been theorised throughout history, an evolutionist approach to that particular subject I don't know of -- authors tend to find virtues and vices in every form of government and weight them differently --
unless of course you are referring to technological advancement ... than see the following:
a powerful, advanced military launches an invasion of a weaker, less advanced government,
which is the premise for most wars in recorded history as you don't wage wars you don't think you can win in terms of symetrical warfare
with the intent to disarm them and install their own form of government, because they do not trust the leaders of this government with the weapons they have
not specific enought of Iraq War ... most wars that ended in the absorbtion of the defeated states territory in the victorious state came with the installtion of a new ruling class/caste in the conquered territory; a change of government or at least state policy dictated by the victors is also common enough even when no territorial gains are made in the end (peace treaties...)
many civilians on the Cyrvan side did not support the war,
civil enthusiams towards war is a rare occurence in history ...
Also after the war, there were groups of LSF Terrans who liked the CSA, and groups that did not, similar to how the opinion of the US is polarized among Iraqis and other Middle Easterners.
Common enough in post war politic envoirments - there are those who arrange with the new status quo and those who seek revenge...
Both sides also have a tradition of a monotheistic God, but the details are different
Which is true for large number of randomly selected groups you could pick for our worlds population and compare to one another
Many people consider them to be arrogant
They are Space Elves - its part of the cliché
(My dear Lady Isa, I meant no disrespect...)
their government makes a habit of interfering with other civilizations
a) define what you call "interfering"... in an open definition market based economies interfere with other civilizations by forming an inter-civilization market
b) often attributed technological advanced races in Sci-Fi as part of the "stop being silly and listen to us 'cause our civilistation is more advanced"-cliché
ostensibly for their own benefit, just like the US government does to other countries.
It's a sad refection on the political culture in western countires that acting for the benefit of another nation is not considered a good policy
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Well, it's not a conscious/intentional reference, but who knows what Koishi makes us do.
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If it was not intentional perhaps it was subconsciously intentional. There are so many coincidences.
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as always the theme of "superior" group/government trying to bring order and betterment to their lesser neighbours is a recurring theme in fiction with varying results depending on how the author views such events and war is the most obvious method (especially when told in a combat game engine).
If you want an alternative to method to war Isaac Asimov's foundation books are an interesting read
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a powerful, advanced military launches an invasion of a weaker, less advanced government,
which is the premise for most wars in recorded history as you don't wage wars you don't think you can win in terms of symetrical warfare
Actually, this one parallels Gulf War quite well. Note, "less advanced government" most likely referred to the tech they had, not governing system. Here (and in Iraq) the odds were extremely uneven, considering both numbers and tech. Historically, wars were waged between enemies on a much more equal footing (in WWI, for instance, nobody really had better tech, and the armies were comparable). Also, before WWI, wars had plenty of popular support. Though I agree that after it and the WWII, they became a lot less liked by the general populace.
as always the theme of "superior" group/government trying to bring order and betterment to their lesser neighbours is a recurring theme in fiction with varying results depending on how the author views such events and war is the most obvious method (especially when told in a combat game engine).
If you want an alternative to method to war Isaac Asimov's foundation books are an interesting read
Well, riffing off Iraq is also quite popular in fiction. Though I agree that the general theme is rather widely used, even in real world as early as in Korean War (Koreans were a lot weaker than Americans, though the terrain was in their favor). Before the technological progress was slower and the disparity was much less (Zulus scored plenty of victories against musket and rifle armed British with spears and bows).
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Cyrvans try to disarm Mankind for the benefit of the whole galaxy, including the Humans themselfs, because they thought them too immature to handle their own defense?
They didn't do it just for their own benefit.... actually not going to war would have been far more beneficial in the first place.
Either way, please leave reality out of WoD.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Cyrvans try to disarm Mankind for the benefit of the whole galaxy, including the Humans themselfs, because they thought them too immature to handle their own defense?
They didn't do it just for their own benefit.... actually not going to war would have been far more beneficial in the first place.
Is that not similar to how the US was worried that Iraq would use WMDs on its neighbors?
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This kind of meddling pretty much comes with being an empire. Older empires used to conquer nations, but since that went out of fashion, US (or CSA) just sticks their nose into affairs of the others.
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Also, before WWI, wars had plenty of popular support.
O rly?
In pre-industrial times war meant the risk of conscription for the majority of male population ... also these men, as much needed members of their households, wouldn't be around to help earn the income of the household which made a huge economic risk out of war (at least for them) ...
Add to that the risk of the looting horde (which the majority of armies were) would come to your doorstep, take what they think is theirs and maybe leave some infectious dead around our house...
Pretty good for popular support...
Ideological and religious propaganda for war exists throughout history and has surivived much more than the accounts of general population, mind you, so we might now think people were more eneuthistical about war...
(this, kids, is also known as the lazy historian's excuse)
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On the other hand, keep in mind that men could also bring spoils of war with them, not to mention it was considered honorable and glorious to fight for one's country back then, much more than now. It does depend on the culture (for example, Polish nobility rather liked the idea of beating someone up and taking their stuff in the name of their country), and the fact that often, nobody asked neither peasants nor women what they think about war. Of course, most of the popular support was for the winning side, or for a side that had nothing to lose anyway, but anti-war movements are a recent idea.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Cyrvans try to disarm Mankind for the benefit of the whole galaxy, including the Humans themselfs, because they thought them too immature to handle their own defense?
They didn't do it just for their own benefit.... actually not going to war would have been far more beneficial in the first place.
Is that not similar to how the US was worried that Iraq would use WMDs on its neighbors?
I always thought the war was fought because of Iraqs oil reservoirs and to deflect attention from the inner-political problems of the USA with the WMDs just being the official excuse. But that might just be my distrusting and cynical nature coming through...
Edited to correct the failed quote :o
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Well, if there wasn't any oil there and they didn't had inner problems, they might've been less quick with the intervention.
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not to mention it was considered honorable and glorious to fight for one's country back then,
The romantic sentiment like "honourable and glorious", those are rather recent, I fear (at least for Europe) - most hail from a time when the beginning of the nationalist movements emerged as those needed narratives to justify what all the fuss was about (national sentiments didn't spring to live because everyone already had a common identiy - most nations as we know them today were constructed from the 17th century onwards and that construction may not even have been completed)
Throughout history most potentates are much more rational than we give them credit for ... especially when it comes to going to war against their peers...
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The Terran-Cyvran War probably has more parallels between the Bolivian-German war.
Germany didn't trust Admiral Bolivar with all the oil he was drilling, selling them to countries that didn't align to their interests, as well as spreading free-market capitalism to Indo-China. So Hitler began advancing toward South America, only to find France in the way and... well, you know the rest.
Actually, we can go back a bit farther into history to find that Spoon may have also stolen inspiration from the 11th Crusade, wherein the Holy Roman Empire, distraught from the death of their Emperor, invaded this small little country that you might know today as Spain. They quickly took control of the lands and sieged the capital, but there they discovered that Spaniards and Holy Romans share the same souls. This created a great alliance that would come to eventually defeat the terrifying Russian menace. (Russians = Hertak, here people)
Now we can use this history to further guess as to what future events will take place in WoD2 (Spoon has seen fit to not let me see the story! Joke's on him, I know what he's thinking). Now we all remembered how the Prussian Empire, locked in battle with America over a fortress in Central Germany, invades Libya in order to surprise the tired troops. While the brilliant Chinese general came within miles of defeating the emperor, but America is forced to surrender when Washington was taken. Now obviously, the Zy are the Prussians here and the CSA are the Americans... so this means... The Zy are going to invade the LSF in order to mount a surprise attack on the CSA capital planet! Take THAT Ulysses S. Grant! ...I mean Isa!
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Actually, we can go back a bit farther into history to find that Spoon may have also stolen inspiration from the 11th Crusade, wherein the Holy Roman Empire, distraught from the death of their Emperor, invaded this small little country that you might know today as Spain. They quickly took control of the lands and sieged the capital, but there they discovered that Spaniards and Holy Romans share the same souls. This created a great alliance that would come to eventually defeat the terrifying Russian menace. (Russians = Hertak, here people)
I think I saw that in a TV show. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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While we're at it, when Spoon first told me about that story, I thought he ripped off Earth-Minbari war, right down to the numbers and the term "warcruiser" that he used then. Turned out he learned about B5 only (then) recently, and had no idea about the war. :)
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While the Minbari as a race and as individuals have many parallels with the Cyrvans, their war with Earth had almost nothing in common with the Cyrvan-Terran war
The LTW was able to fight the Cyrvans to a standstill and the Cyrvans where far from united in their war.
The Minbari on the other hand "went mad together" and crushed the EA completely. They kept wiping out any and all Human military vessels where already in Earth orbit when they found a reason for not wiping out or occupying Earth.
Also the reasons for the war where nothing alike. The Minbari started to slaughter Humans, because their great leader was killed in a botched up first contact, before there was any communication at all (well... the Minbari did receive the Human's hails, but couldn't translate them in time to stop the tragedy), while the Humans in WoD started shooting because of the insane (from their point of view at least) made by the Cyrvans.
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Dayum, Axem read me like an open book!