Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: CT27 on September 04, 2014, 09:59:26 pm
-
In the mission "Her Finest Hour" from BP: WIH, who do you think was more in the right concerning actions taken? Was Admiral Lopez right to stick around after being ordered to leave and Steele issued a bad order...or did Admiral Steele issue the correct course of action and Lopez messed up?
What was the best choice for the GTVA militarily?
As kind of a secondary question, if Lopez survives the war and gets back to GTVA territory somehow, was what she did worthy of a court-martial?
-
That is indeed a good question. Personally, I feel like Lopez made the right decision because the odds were heavily in his/her (can't remember atm) favor initially due to beam weapons and the fact that the UEF only fielded a small force against the fortifications around the station. What Lopez was unable to consider was the off possibility of the Frigates destroying the Cruisers and finding a way to wreck the turret screen in a very short time, thus opening up the ability for a larger confrontation. The better choice from a tactical stand point would have been to leave as soon as the orders came in and avoid any more losses than were needed.
What Lopez did was disobey an order from a superior (Steele isn't his/her superior in rank, but in function since he is in command of the whole operation in Sol), this IS grounds for a court martial. However if the UEF is able to secure a victory or draw, and the Elders feel like it, they can ask for Lopez to be pardoned under the ceasefire agreement (I think).
-
She disobeyed a direct order to depart and it resulted in the capture or destruction of her destroyer.
-
Yeah - the only way to "survive" disobeying a direct order is for it to result in success, not failure.
-
I concur, she has a court martial coming. A deserved one at that, she disobeyed a direct order, which resulted in disaster.
-
The question is: was she "right" or militarily correct to disobey the order to leave the area?
In other words, was a destroyer worth 'more' than trying to save more people like Lopez was trying to do?
-
It's a decision that can and probably will be debated among military historians for decades to come.
-
Lopez's decision to disobey was militarily incorrect when quantifying military assets. Even though the Carthage is an old destroyer, it had been heavily modded and was more than a match for any vessel that UEA could throw at it, with it's hardened armour and beam weaponary. Even though the GTVA should be able to easily sweep aside UEA defences with a full scale invasion, they cannot afford to lose any destroyers should they come across the full force of the Shivans or Vishnans, as they would need all the firepower they can muster.
The overall tactical situation was a mess from the outset for Lopez due to the positioning of the AWACs. If she had kept a tighter formation then the UEA stealth fighters would have found it a lot more difficult to cause the damage they did. With the GTVA advanced weaponary, they should have deployed closer to the station, with the AWACs providing as much sensor coverage as possible, and massed the firepower to stop the UEA infiltrating behind and uploading the viruses.
Whereas Lopez is likeable due to her psychological profile and relentless loyalty to the people under her command, as shown in BP, it leaves her open to exploitation and therefore clouds her judgement to assess when she should cut her losses, which is something Steele has down to a tee... therefore making Steele a much better commander. In fact, Steele's prowess as a battlefield commander makes him more likeable in my opinion, as he is the kind of person that you would want to be fighting for due to his high success rate, especially if you are to be faced with an enemy like the Shivans.
-
From a military standpoint Lopez was incorrect in disobeying the order to withdraw. The loss of her ship aside, breaking the chain of command introduces an unpredictable element that puts even more people, soldier and civilian alike, at risk.
From an ethical standpoint she, like Rear Admiral Casey and potentially the player in FS2, is disobeying orders that conflict with the GTVA's moral mission, so it's much more of a grey area.
-
I forgot who said it, but there was someone who had a good comment in a thread on a similar issue a while back:
"Whether it was more important to save the Carthage or the people on the station is a tough decision...however the point is it wasn't Lopez's decision to make."
-
I don't agree with the quote. It implies that the right decision is a superior's decision. I hate to bring the Nazis, but the Nuremberg defense/superior orders is not a useable defense on making morally wrong decisions.
Lopez certainly wasn't committing an atrocity, but she made a moral decision based on what she felt was best. Whether or not that was a correct military decision is a different story.
-
Lopez certainly wasn't committing an atrocity, but she made a moral decision based on what she felt was best. Whether or not that was a correct military decision is a different story.
Do you feel it was the correct decision militarily?
-
Obviously not, as it led to a major enemy victory.
-
An Orion has 10K people IIRC.
How many people did Lopez save by staying behind and disobeying orders?
-
@CT27, you probably should add the crews of the rest of the battlegroup to that figure of 10k, or least the 2x Deimos that stayed with Lopez.
@SypheDMar; I don't think that the Nuremburg decision is relevant in this case. In particular which "international/interstellar" law was broken? (Unless you want to take the position that the entire GTVA war is a "War of Aggression", and that BETAC has a clause regarding "Crimes against Peace" in which case everyone in the GTVA military is all guilty already)
-
Nevertheless, CT's point is the exact same that came to my mind as well. But this isn't a gross problem in here. I can see a "we all stick together" thing that is actually morale inducing not just for those who are being saved but for everyone. If they abandoned them, you can imagine the morale inside that destroyer's crew, and we can imagine all the fleet men whispering ****. I mean, not everyone is able to be as cold as Steele.
And that was precisely the issue, the crack that Laporte and company detected. Steele is cold as ice, but not everyone in the fleet is like that. In the end, Lopez own humanity was the loophole that was used. They planned with that in mind. In the absence of such "humanity", the very scenario we are discussing here wouldn't even have existed in the first place (and other would have existed in its place). So, in a sense, Lopez crime was that she wasn't perfect.
It's a good paradox to ponder over.
I have way bigger problems with plots (more than character decisions) that have twenty people risking their lives (and most of them ending up losing them) to save one person... yeah maths how do they work.
-
Nevertheless, CT's point is the exact same that came to my mind as well. But this isn't a gross problem in here. I can see a "we all stick together" thing that is actually morale inducing not just for those who are being saved but for everyone. If they abandoned them, you can imagine the morale inside that destroyer's crew, and we can imagine all the fleet men whispering ****. I mean, not everyone is able to be as cold as Steele.
And that was precisely the issue, the crack that Laporte and company detected. Steele is cold as ice, but not everyone in the fleet is like that. In the end, Lopez own humanity was the loophole that was used. They planned with that in mind. In the absence of such "humanity", the very scenario we are discussing here wouldn't even have existed in the first place (and other would have existed in its place). So, in a sense, Lopez crime was that she wasn't perfect.
It's a good paradox to ponder over.
I have way bigger problems with plots (more than character decisions) that have twenty people risking their lives (and most of them ending up losing them) to save one person... yeah maths how do they work.
So what you're kind of saying is that the GTVA fleet needs people like Steele and people like Lopez?
-
I think morally, it was also an incorrect decision due to the mathematical value of "saving lives". People might ask whether it is correct to expend 20 lives to save one, but if that one individual is going to go on to save more lives then the twenty would have, then surely that is a gamble worth taking.
Also, I don't think that Steele's tactical prowess and knowledge of his assets have also been considered. At the end of Act II, the UEA was trying to exploit the same weakness in Lopez, but was unable to do so because Steele had the intel to lure several UEA assets into a trap*. Steele knew that his plan would be successful with minimal loss of life. In comparison to the situation where the Carthage was lost, Steele did not have the advantage of intel and he had recognised an unwinnable situation, therefore he gave the order to pull out which would have actually saved more lives (hindsight obviously) and a valuable destroyer with a high skilled crew.
As cold and calculating as Steele might appear to be, it asks the question whether this is actually true of Steele as it could be argued that he wanted to save the lives of those in the battlefield, whereas Lopez wanted to fight on and end up sacrificing her crew. In my opinion, Lopez's only saving grace was that she surrendered in order to save the crew, but how many lives did she waste before it was too late?
*I can't write that without thinking of Admiral Ackbar... or Chris Griffin in Something, Something, Something, Darkside; when he crashes the speeder and impersonates Admiral Ackbar for "snow-side" assistance.
-
In the mission "Her Finest Hour" from BP: WIH, who do you think was more in the right concerning actions taken? Was Admiral Lopez right to stick around after being ordered to leave and Steele issued a bad order...or did Admiral Steele issue the correct course of action and Lopez messed up?
What was the best choice for the GTVA militarily?
As kind of a secondary question, if Lopez survives the war and gets back to GTVA territory somehow, was what she did worthy of a court-martial?
I am a retired officer, and I can say for certain that Lopez would definitely get a court martial for what she did. As an officer/soldier/nco, you can disobey direct orders only if A) they are plainly suicidal B) they constitute a war crime. In Lopez's case, the orders were neither suicidal nor criminous. Forgetting the bigger picture, she opted to stay behind to save a few thousand lives and, in doing so, allowed the UEF to deny an incredibly powerful asset to the GTVA: the Carthage and its veteran crew and battlefleet components.
The loss of the Carthage (whether you decide to destroy it or not) should not be underestimated: in an era wherein almost all GTVA ships are glass cannons, with tremendous firepower but low survivability (just look at the quickness with which that Chimera gets pulverized in "The Plunder", or at how Serkr team has to leg it to avoid annihilation in "Aristeia"), a sturdy ship like the Carthage is likely the keystone to any serious battle plan because, contrarily to almost all the other ships employed by the GTVA, it can get in a prolonged brawl with other ships and survive.
Any other ship would have to either rely on shock jump tactics (the primary intended purpose of their design) or slowly approach a blockade of Narayanas armed with their ridiculously long-range weapons. Even in that case, the Carthage would make an excellent punching bag, capable of distracting UEF vessels for quite some time. I mean, in "Her Finest Hour" the Carthage takes A LOT of beating before her hull gets hammered seriously enough for Lopez to surrender her ship: we're talking of minutes spent soaking the strikes from two Narayanas and (provided you called them in) at least 2 wings of durga bombers armed with redeemer cannons and a squadron of custos armed to the teeth with torpedoes (and said squadron is usually capable of vaporizing a single deimos surprisingly quickly, as long as you disable the Deimos' guns).
Lopez's stubborness cost the GTVA a very valuable asset indeed, not to mention the complementary vessels (Rhadanite, Deianira, Iolanthe, McAuliffe, Gallant) with their veteran crews. The loss of the Carthage was, to the GTVA, such a felling blow that they had to recall at least three other destroyers in Sol in order to cope with the Carthage's loss. While not being a war-breaking defeat per se, it certainly complicated things for Steele and the GTVA, achieving the hilarious final resolt of costing the Alliance MORE lives than anticipated.
So...yeah, provided Lopez survives the battle (she never does during my playthroughs) and is returned to the GTVA, she's in for serious trouble.
-
the UEA
The what now?
You mean the UEF, the United Earth Federation?
-
[a lot of intelligent stuff written down]
(http://www.hard-light.net/forums/Smileys/HLP/welcome2hlpbb.gif)
-
The loss of the Carthage (whether you decide to destroy it or not) should not be underestimated: in an era wherein almost all GTVA ships are glass cannons, with tremendous firepower but low survivability (just look at the quickness with which that Chimera gets pulverized in "The Plunder", or at how Serkr team has to leg it to avoid annihilation in "Aristeia"), a sturdy ship like the Carthage is likely the keystone to any serious battle plan because, contrarily to almost all the other ships employed by the GTVA, it can get in a prolonged brawl with other ships and survive.
Any other ship would have to either rely on shock jump tactics (the primary intended purpose of their design) or slowly approach a blockade of Narayanas armed with their ridiculously long-range weapons. Even in that case, the Carthage would make an excellent punching bag, capable of distracting UEF vessels for quite some time. I mean, in "Her Finest Hour" the Carthage takes A LOT of beating before her hull gets hammered seriously enough for Lopez to surrender her ship: we're talking of minutes spent soaking the strikes from two Narayanas and (provided you called them in) at least 2 wings of durga bombers armed with redeemer cannons and a squadron of custos armed to the teeth with torpedoes (and said squadron is usually capable of vaporizing a single deimos surprisingly quickly, as long as you disable the Deimos' guns).
We've hardly seen any of the new GTVA destroyers in an actual battle though, and I doubt they'll be significantly less durable than Carthage when we do...
Lopez's stubborness cost the GTVA a very valuable asset indeed, not to mention the complementary vessels (Rhadanite, Deianira, Iolanthe, McAuliffe, Gallant) with their veteran crews. The loss of the Carthage was, to the GTVA, such a felling blow that they had to recall at least three other destroyers in Sol in order to cope with the Carthage's loss.
... and I don't think the newly arrived destroyers are just a replacement for the Carthage and her battlegroup.
But yeah, I do agree with your general point - it is a huge loss (even if Steele managed to actually leverage it to get more destroyers? I mean did he? not really sure as to what happened there...) and Lopez definitely shouldn't have done it.
As for Steele and Lopez in general, one of the first things we hear about Steele - or at least one of the first I found resonant - is not how ruthless or cold he is, but that he 'hates the loss of life'.
Even if we're speaking who's in the right morally, I think that's something you can respect.
On the other hand, I don't know how fair it is to judge him on this, but one could say that Steele's failure to inspire enough loyalty in his subordinates, or to account for them being a breaking point of his plans is at least partially his fault as a commander. For example, I think Lopez's men trust her a lot more than she trusted Steele in that moment.
-
[a lot of intelligent stuff written down]
(http://www.hard-light.net/forums/Smileys/HLP/welcome2hlpbb.gif)
Thanks for the welcome, appreciated :)
We've hardly seen any of the new GTVA destroyers in an actual battle though, and I doubt they'll be significantly less durable than Carthage when we do...
Both the GTD Messana and GTD Phoenicia (ergo the ships called in after the Carthage's loss) are Hecate-class destroyers (they are SSI-era destroyers which were either shown in actual missions, or mentioned), and they don't really fare well in any ship-to-ship engagement, unless it's a frontal battle. Even in that case, their performance is sub-par. It is a well-known fact that Hecates are unfulfilling vessels in the ship-to-ship role, unless they deploy lots of bombers. Heck, even a Karuna could potentially wreck an Hecate if its gauss cannons get a lucky hit and disable the frontal guns!
But yeah, I do agree with your general point - it is a huge loss (even if Steele managed to actually leverage it to get more destroyers? I mean did he? not really sure as to what happened there...) and Lopez definitely shouldn't have done it.
After "Her Finest Hour", Steele managed to convince the GTVA Council to give him complete control over the war effort. This basically means that he is the man in charge of the whole GTVA now.
-
Are you mixing things up?
The Requiem was ambushed in Sol as far as I'm aware and was forced to retreat before the Carthage was attacked around Saturn...
The Vengeance and Phoenicia have been called in after the loss of the Carthage, as well as the Implacable(Titan) and Agamemnon(Erebus).
The Hecates are not considered front line combatants, but rearline ships used to launch their strikecraft. When they enter combat, they do that with their battlegroups, but never alone.
But you're right that they do not perform well enough in combat situations, if unsupported.
-
What is interesting in all of this war is how it so much resembles the same dillemas that europeans faced in world war one, namely how to end the slow but assured death toll that kept going up while all the war objectives were so slowly won and so costly in terms of human lives (and many times, easily lost shortly thereafter). The theoretical answer was then that the shorter the war was, the less lives would be culled. The slow machine of death would be stopped by a quick blade. A lot of people would die in a swift way, but that would prevent 10, 20 times the human losses in the long run.
This is the mindset that was used as an excuse to bomb german cities to smithereens in the second world war, and, of course, the usage of the atom bomb in Japan. Both of these decisions had this argument for saving human lives (as well). It seems to be Steele's mindset as well. For intance, he's being accused of bringing the concept of "total war" to this GTVA UEF conflict, including some bombing runs in Luna and so on.
This runs a bit deeper. We can easily recognize that all these wars have spared the big majority of the populations of any burden (other than economic), because we are all in space and most people are not spaceships. It's an historical reversal of the trend that started in the Napoleonic wars where every man was given a weapon and turned into a soldier and peaked in WW2's mass grave of cannon fodder. Already in Vietnam the american military saw that this was an obsolete paradigm, and now we have specialized, non-drafted military doing all the work while we remain playing our XBones and drinking Coke at peace. In all of this space war story we can already see a similar escalation from gentile, gentlemanly, specialized "war" to a more brutal, merciless, total war, all in the name of ending it quickly, all in the name of human lives being spared.
Where is Steele ready to go? Clearly, more than anyone else. Huge war crimes might follow here.
-
Strategically, Hecates are significantly more capable destroyers than Orions. Their bigger air wings give them much better force projection capabilities, and they're more receptive to upgrades. Orions are capable ship-to-ship combatants, but against the UEF, their weak point defenses make them very vulnerable. What Orions are left in the GTVA fleet are first in line for replacement.
-
the UEA
The what now?
You mean the UEF, the United Earth Federation?
Haha... yes... i was going from memory and I was in work as well! You pedantic so 'n' so :p
xx
-
Strategically, Hecates are significantly more capable destroyers than Orions. Their bigger air wings give them much better force projection capabilities, and they're more receptive to upgrades.
The Vengeance and Phoenicia have been called in after the loss of the Carthage, as well as the Implacable(Titan) and Agamemnon(Erebus).
The Hecates are not considered front line combatants, but rearline ships used to launch their strikecraft. When they enter combat, they do that with their battlegroups, but never alone.
Of course (to you both). I was referring to an Hecate's ship-to-ship capability, not to the strategic capabilities such a specialized vessel carries with all its fighter complements. Point of my post was, the Carthage was probably the best slugger the GTVA had, and Lopez's mutiny ultimately removed that asset from the roster.
Orions are capable ship-to-ship combatants, but against the UEF, their weak point defenses make them very vulnerable. What Orions are left in the GTVA fleet are first in line for replacement.
Do you mean there are still a few Orions left in active service apart from the Carthage?
-
the Carthage was probably the best slugger the GTVA had
Is there anything in canon to support the idea that the Carthage was a better "slugger" than an Erebus?
-
Of course (to you both). I was referring to an Hecate's ship-to-ship capability, not to the strategic capabilities such a specialized vessel carries with all its fighter complements. Point of my post was, the Carthage was probably the best slugger the GTVA had, and Lopez's mutiny ultimately removed that asset from the roster.
Wouldn't the Atreus be a good slugger?
-
Is there anything in canon to support the idea that the Carthage was a better "slugger" than an Erebus?
I'm basing what I'm saying on what I've seen so far, since I have yet to see the Erebus (nor do I know its specifications) to know for sure whether would it be a better brawler than the Carthage (the luck of being a forum newbie, I guess :)). Now that I think of it, it's already the 5th time I hear the Erebus being mentioned. Could you, or someone else, please give me a summary of the erebus' specs?
Wouldn't the Atreus be a good slugger?
I think the Atreus, while certainly being lethal, is not as sturdy as the Carthage, at least from what I've seen in "Darkest Hour", wherein two Narayanas manage to drop the Atreus' health by a good 8-10% before the ship's departure (or at least, that was the amount of damage they inflicted last time I played that mission).
It certainly seems to have less hit points than the Carthage, despite having a wider turret coverage and better point defenses.
-
The Atreus, while classed as Raynor ingame, is in fact the lead ship of the Erebus class...long story...
http://hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GTD_Raynor
And we cannot take the simple stats as consideration as to how a ship performs in BP, since these stats don't show ECM capabilitys and so on.
-
The Atreus, while classed as Raynor ingame, is in fact the lead ship of the Erebus class...long story...
http://hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GTD_Raynor
So the GTD Raynor is/was in fact the GTD Erebus, and both names are interchangeable when referring to them via forum? Well, good to know!
And we cannot take the simple stats as consideration as to how a ship performs in BP, since these stats don't show ECM capabilitys and so on.
True, simple stats aren't everything, but is the Raynor/Erebus actually capable of ECM without having to rely on a Charybdis? Tech room so far isn't particularly clear on the matter. All I have seen so far after about 7 playthroughs of the WiH campaign, is that the Atreus looks somewhat fragile despite its substantial firepower, as Darkest Hour has shown me time and time again.
-
And we cannot take the simple stats as consideration as to how a ship performs in BP, since these stats don't show ECM capabilitys and so on.
True, simple stats aren't everything, but is the Raynor/Erebus actually capable of ECM without having to rely on a Charybdis? Tech room so far isn't particularly clear on the matter. All I have seen so far after about 7 playthroughs of the WiH campaign, is that the Atreus looks somewhat fragile despite its substantial firepower, as Darkest Hour has shown me time and time again.
IIRC, all capital ships in BP have ECM/ECCM capabilities. Also, the damage the Atreus takes from a pair of artillery frigates while focusing on jumping out as quickly as possible has no bearing on how it would perform in a ship-to-ship duel.
-
I don't think there's any engagement in which an Orion would perform better than an Erebus. The Erebus is significantly more heavily armed, has more sophisticated armor, better ECM/ECCM, and carries a host of active protection systems which even upgraded Orions don't have. It's also faster through subspace, it's systems don't strain its power grid anywhere near as much (so it has more to give in combat), and it carries a bigger air wing.
And yes, all ships in BP have some degree of ECM/ECCM capabilities. AWACS are just specialized in the role. An example: in Aristeia, the Medea jams the Wargods long range comms on its own. The Arethusa and Indus to it to each other in What Binds Us. The Katana in TBI jams beams. Electronic warfare is a major component of the modern battlespace, and all ships can do it to some extent.
Do you mean there are still a few Orions left in active service apart from the Carthage?
Yes. 6 of them, all of which have been fairly well upgraded. The Messana is right on the other side of the node, as a matter of fact. It's the other half of the Requiem's BG, on node protection duty. But the Orion has reached the limits of its spaceframe, and is very much on its way out.
-
The Atreus, while classed as Raynor ingame, is in fact the lead ship of the Erebus class...long story...
http://hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GTD_Raynor
So the GTD Raynor is/was in fact the GTD Erebus, and both names are interchangeable when referring to them via forum? Well, good to know!
Not quite, what happened was that the team decided they didn't like the name Raynor and so they renamed the class, but they haven't yet released an update with all the names formally changed.
-
What Phantom said. When the Director's Cut gets released, the name will change along with the model.
-
The Atreus was also seen slugging it out with the Toutatis at the beginning of Act Three. I somehow doubt that Darkest Hour is a good measure (see the ECM comments above) if the Atreus can stand up to an extended brawl with a Solaris class Destroyer.
-
The Atreus, while classed as Raynor ingame, is in fact the lead ship of the Erebus class...long story...
http://hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GTD_Raynor
So the GTD Raynor is/was in fact the GTD Erebus, and both names are interchangeable when referring to them via forum? Well, good to know!
Not quite, what happened was that the team decided they didn't like the name Raynor and so they renamed the class, but they haven't yet released an update with all the names formally changed.
Also, they're re-modelling it and the weapons are going to change completely. http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=85900.0
-
Assuming Lopez survived the engagement, what do you think her feelings are about Steele now?
Does she hate him and think he's a monster?
Does she wish she would have listened to him?
Or somewhere in between?
-
I would say -almost- hate him. She very much so cares about the members of her crew, and moreover, those who she protects. Thus, if she were to, I presume, escape the engagement and leave the remaining station and company to the mercy of the UEF, she would not be able to live the action, and would probably blame Steele for the act.
So yes, she would most likely not like Steele as much as when she entered the engagement.
-
I would say somewhere in between but less close to hate than what you have.
In "Delenda Est" Lopez told the UEF "I will never surrender to an illegitimate government". So at least to some degree she supports the GTVA and its cause in Sol I would say. I would also (if I was a serious gambling man) wager that she understands Steele and his methods by now (maybe she doesn't always agree with him but IMO she understands he wants to win too). She may be disappointed he didn't do more to save her, but I don't think she thinks he did it just to spite her.
-
I really love this thread, you guys are great.
-
If you were the defense attorney at Lopez' court martial, what would your argument be (obviously assuming she survives the war and gets back somehow)?
"Anita Lopez, you are charged with dereliction of duty and disobeying a direct order from a legitimate superior officer...all which resulted in serious loss of life and resources for the GTVA. How do you plead?"-I imagine would be one of the opening lines of the trial
-
My argument would be surrounding the "Unforeseen Consequences" which happened during the battle (should she plee innocent). Even though my previous post stated that the tactical situation was a bit of a mess, as the deployment was too... "loose", there was no obvious loss scenario that Lopez could have predicted.
For instance, could the tevs have predicted that stealth fighters would be used to deploy electronic warfare?
If Steele had committed more resources to the battle could yet another crushing blow had been delivered to UEF?
Was there anyway to predict a mass warp-in of UEF forces which would overwhelm the Carthage?
The overall interpretation of the opening melees in the battle can be brought into question as well. As I flew it, I went for the tankers first therefore this action could have been interpreted by Lopez as an act, by the UEF, to disrupt the resources available to the tevs. Taking out the Mjolnir cannons could have been interpreted as a precursor to a larger operation rather than part of an overall single mission to retake a strategic postion (was it Jupiter... I can't remember).
The problem with any defence is Lopez's decision to remain behind, which is ultimately undefendable. To clutch at straws, her defence can only be to say that she was denied the possible intel that Steele had, Steele missed an opportunity that she saw to jump a task force in to take out the attacking UEF fleet therefore trying to force Steele's hand and that Steele did not sortie the necessary reinforcements to avoid a catastrophic scenario for the tevs and Lopez's task force.
Ultimately, I think that to coin the phrase "All is fair in love and war" would be apt to Lopez's defence.
In conclusion, I think that any defence for Lopez would just become a damage limitation exercise on her behalf, to reduce her punishment. So, would the above arguments clear of treason but result in an inherent inability to command a task force in theatre?
What would the end result of such a trial be?
-
At the very least a big demotion, perhaps forced resignation. No matter how ruthless the GTVA has become in comparison with Ubuntu, I don't think they woudl go back to hang Lopez for what she did.
-
If Lopez's stand had succeeded, and she'd gotten her own crew and the entire Neptune HQ staff out, I wonder how the GTVA military justice system would have handled the tidal wave of officers insisting even in the face of clear telemetry that the Carthage had suffered a navigational mishap and couldn't possibly have departed sooner. Lopez couldn't help but save the day.
It's really hard to court-martial an officer for success, especially in a politically fragile climate. But Steele can't tolerate subordinates who introduce error into his plans. I think Lopez would likely have been 'promoted' to Staff College and a tour of the home front, where the GTVA could use her personality and reputation to support the war. Her career as a combat commander would've been over.
And you can make it real! All you have to do is fail Her Finest Hour!
-
Ahhhh Battuta (welcome back btw) .... with the inside knowledge :p
-
There's no inside knowledge here, I'm just speculating along with you guys. I won't do it if it feels like it's shutting down discussion. Your post above was great, I'm talking about the scenario where Lopez actually gets away with it.
-
Was a comment meant more in gest than anything else mate!
Thanks for the compliment on the comment. It's always good to speculate and bring a few ideas of what ifs, buts and hows! Hindsight is such a wonderful thing!
-
If you were the defense attorney at Lopez' court martial, what would your argument be (obviously assuming she survives the war and gets back somehow)?
"Anita Lopez, you are charged with dereliction of duty and disobeying a direct order from a legitimate superior officer...all which resulted in serious loss of life and resources for the GTVA. How do you plead?"-I imagine would be one of the opening lines of the trial
I'd be surprised if she didn't plead guilty.
-
If you were the defense attorney at Lopez' court martial, what would your argument be (obviously assuming she survives the war and gets back somehow)?
"Anita Lopez, you are charged with dereliction of duty and disobeying a direct order from a legitimate superior officer...all which resulted in serious loss of life and resources for the GTVA. How do you plead?"-I imagine would be one of the opening lines of the trial
I'd be surprised if she didn't plead guilty.
Out of a desire to reduce her punishment or as a form of protest that what she did was the right thing?
-
I'd be surprised if she didn't plead guilty.
Out of a desire to reduce her punishment or as a form of protest that what she did was the right thing?
You left out the possibility that she might actually think she did the wrong thing.
-
I'd be surprised if she didn't plead guilty.
Out of a desire to reduce her punishment or as a form of protest that what she did was the right thing?
You left out the possibility that she might actually think she did the wrong thing.
So, on reflection she might think Steele was right after all?
-
I think a jury would judge it irrelevant whether Lopez thought Steele was right or wrong. In hindsight, she might realise that she was wrong to not jump out. At the time, her actions were inherently wrong, but she did not realise it and that is what she would be judged on. She thought there might have been an opportunity where none existed, but a good commander would have realised that they would not have a complete overview of the enemy assets which is something Steele might have had, therefore she should have submitted to the owner of better intel!
-
It's not about right or wrong. It wasn't her call to make, it was Steele's. Her reasons might mitigate her sentence, but she's guilty of disobeying a direct and lawful order, which directly resulted in a significant GTVA defeat. I don't think she'd try to deny that fact.
-
It's not about right or wrong. It wasn't her call to make, it was Steele's. Her reasons might mitigate her sentence, but she's guilty of disobeying a direct and lawful order, which directly resulted in a significant GTVA defeat. I don't think she'd try to deny that fact.
That is entirely accurate. An order is an order, no matter whant intel your Commanding Officer shared with you or not. Steele's order to retreat was neither a war crime, nor a suicide order (quite the contrary, in fact). The best defensive line she could probably hold is a meager "I did what I thought best under the circumstances", but the very least Lopez could theoretically face with such a defence is a guilty verdict followed by either a dishonorable discharge or "corrective assignment" to a backwater outpost in which she'd be lucky to be put in charge of a Fenris. If we disregard political concerns like people's opinion on the matter, that is.
-
I imagine that with an Admiral on trial, the GTVA would put some important people on the court martial committee. Would there be any Vasudans judging Lopez?
-
I don't think that Vasudans would be able to offer a fair reflection on the outcome of such a committee due to the cultural differences between the two races. What they consider to be their core values could fundamentally differ from Terran core values, and this would apply to both the military and the public values of their perceptions. In order for the outcome to be judged on a completely Terran issue, no outside influences should be brought into the equation to maintain cultural consistency.
The Vasudans were not involved at all at this point or in this battle, and their was no loss of life or resources for the Vasudans, so they should not get a say as to what happens to Lopez. The same should apply vice versa if it were a purely Vasudan issue. The only time when a committee should be made up of Terran and Vasudan officials is when there are losses to both races and I would make up the committee based on a ratio of what races lost what in a battle. For example, if the total percentage lost of Vasudan resources was 75%, then 75% of the committee should be made up of Vasudans.
-
Would there be any Vasudans judging Lopez?
I don't think that Vasudans would be able to offer a fair reflection on the outcome of such a committee due to the cultural differences between the two races.
That is correct. Canon tells us that vasudans consider "falling back to save others" honorable. Therefor they would rather be on Lopez side, I guess.
But guys, what about option 3? Where Lopez is not guilty at all? In my playthrough I managed to disable the GTD Carthage seconds after Lopez was ordered to depart. ;)
-
It probably wouldn't work, but some might try to argue in Lopez' defense that Steele knew about her personality so he's partly to blame for putting her there.
-
There are only so many admirals in a fleet. And they are all humans, at least for the moment...