[Hades]

I'll make a few suggestions, as mentioned thickening up the central fuselage while trimming down the width of the engine pods might be worth checking out.  I might also make the fronts of the pods a slightly more rounded rather than come to a flat face.  I think that will help with the center fuselage to bulky pods issue and bring it more in line with the original Herc II.  The only other thing that I'll mention is the guns and access panels on the original design were meant to be pretty low profile/stealthy.  Having visible muzzles and extruded panels makes it look a little robust and aggressive but I liked the idea of having them all integral like a modern aircraft.  That said the last item is more a stylistic choice for you folks to figure out.


Anyway just a few ideas to kick around, so far its a great start and I look forward to seeing things develop. 


I'll be glad to provide any further input if you wish.

Aesaar has the mesh currently but fixing the proportions was the main thing he said he'll be working on today. Aye, currently, the front sidepod 'edges' are things we're looking at, they're as Caiaphas put it "in limbo", we're either going to tighten them or loosen them, though I am curious to know if you think them being more edge-like or rounded would look better? (In fact, do you think making them rounded instead of having a flat face looks better or is that mainly to make it resemble the original more?)

I think that aggressive might be the look to go with the Herc 2 and Ares, personally. Visually, it helps hint at their purpose better, though I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this bit.

Thank you for the ideas! They're incredibly helpful and please, don't hesitate to provide any input as you see fit. If it weren't for you, I don't think we'd actually be doing this.

[StarSlayer]

I opted for a low pro weapons load out for two main reasons, one was I wanted a clean modern fighter look similar to a F22 or PAK and second was that nearly all the FS2 Gen strike craft save the Boanerges came loaded as such.  I felt the integral systems displayed technical progression over the earlier great War counterparts that all had exposed muzzles.  Though the obvious barrels are rough and ready looking so I leave it as a style choice for you folks to decide.

As for the pods I might try a more type wedge front, I think it makes it a little sleeker looking and eliminates forward facing radar reflective surfaces.  I roughed out two variants that might be worth trying:



Anyway you can make whatever tweaks to the design you think work best.

[TwentyPercentCooler]

My opinion of what goes on with FSU doesn't matter, of course, but for the record, I think this is a hell of a lot more "Hercules" than the original Herc II. I never understood why  took a badass block of armor and guns and turned it into an absurd space balloon. The Herc II is a decent craft to fly, but it just never really fit in with the Terran aesthetic.

Regardless of what happens officially with this model, I'll be using it. It's an excellent homage to the original Herc and doesn't look so out of place in the FS2 Terran fleet.

[Mad Bomber]

Great model! I always wondered how the Terran FS2 ships would have looked without Vasudan influence.

Tho I idly wonder how this Herc-II would look with Perseus wings added... (In fact it could wind up looking kinda modular if that route were chosen.)

[Ulala]

Critique isn't hate.

I'm not saying critique is hate. However:

"It's not round enough, so it definitely isn't worth considering using it as a part of the FSU project."

Well, I happen to think it is worth considering using, but that's just me. [edit] Hell, maybe the creators thought it might be nice to update the Herc II again and this model would good enough for FSU, but the purists immediately jumped on their **** for it not being round enough. No one bothered to even ask them before pulling out the pitchforks over the model not being "true enough" to the original. But whatever.[/edit]

I don't mind installing it as a separate mod to keep the masses happy though.

[General Battuta]

There's constant tension between creative freedom and fidelity to the original models in the FSU. I think it's always worth talking about that dialogue, and I suspect the FSU appreciates the feedback as long as it's civil.

[Dragon]

"It's not round enough, so it definitely isn't worth considering using it as a part of the FSU project."

Not "not worth", "unsuited" for FSU. It's not a matter of quality, it's a matter of it not looking like Herc II. While there's an ongoing debate about just how much artistic license is allowed for FSU models, this model is clearly a reimagination, not an upgrade of Herc II. Since it's FS Upgrade Project, not FS Reimagination Project, such a model has no place in Mediavps, even if it's prettier than idea of Herc II.

[Ulala]

Not "not worth", "unsuited" for FSU. It's not a matter of quality, it's a matter of it not looking like Herc II. While there's an ongoing debate about just how much artistic license is allowed for FSU models, this model is clearly a reimagination, not an upgrade of Herc II. Since it's FS Upgrade Project, not FS Reimagination Project, such a model has no place in Mediavps, even if it's prettier than idea of Herc II.

Many models have been re-imagined already. But it's fine, everyone, it's fine. I'll happily use the work these folks are putting into these models in my own special modded version. That's the beauty of mods.

[Hades]

"It's not round enough, so it definitely isn't worth considering using it as a part of the FSU project."

Not "not worth", "unsuited" for FSU. It's not a matter of quality, it's a matter of it not looking like Herc II. While there's an ongoing debate about just how much artistic license is allowed for FSU models, this model is clearly a reimagination, not an upgrade of Herc II. Since it's FS Upgrade Project, not FS Reimagination Project, such a model has no place in Mediavps, even if it's prettier than idea of Herc II.

Our Herc 2 is no different to the original as the Cain is to the original. Would you really prefer throwing out a fantastic model and texture and instead have a horrible mess simply because of this?



(Lilith is used, but other than a couple strips of polygons and not being too chrome to see)

I opted for a low pro weapons load out for two main reasons, one was I wanted a clean modern fighter look similar to a F22 or PAK and second was that nearly all the FS2 Gen strike craft save the Boanerges came loaded as such.  I felt the integral systems displayed technical progression over the earlier great War counterparts that all had exposed muzzles.  Though the obvious barrels are rough and ready looking so I leave it as a style choice for you folks to decide.

As for the pods I might try a more type wedge front, I think it makes it a little sleeker looking and eliminates forward facing radar reflective surfaces.  I roughed out two variants that might be worth trying:



Anyway you can make whatever tweaks to the design you think work best.

e: didn't see this, but thank you for your input. I'll talk to Aesaar about this.

[Dragon]

Actually, your Herc II is much more radical departure than the new Cain. If you look at them, the biggest change is a slight repositioning of the turrets. The rest is precisely replicated in high detail, right down to those odd bumps on the inner side of the arms. If anything, I'd bring Boanerges as an example of a "reimagined" model in Mediavps. And I'm only willing to put up with Boa because the sole alternative is a retail model. If we didn't have a decent Herc II already, this one could possibly go in.

[Nyctaeus]

Shivan models are another story. While the Cain and Lilith are as old as FS1 is, c915 had a big field for his imagination HTLing them. HTL Demon that Esarai is making is a big departure from the original, but these are shivan ships and they are many ways to HTL them. You just have to keep them semi-organic, and there are many ways to do this. Both Esarai and c914 are great at this. This Herc is terran ship, and while it should resemble original design as much as it's possible, this one is better than the original. I would accept this as HTL Herc II, because it's cool. I'm not sure if this should become MediaVP Herc II... Well, dunno. It's not depending on me. I just wish you guys goodluck on this. This model is welcome no matter if it appear in MediaVPs or as independent download.

[Hades]

Actually, your Herc II is much more radical departure than the new Cain. If you look at them, the biggest change is a slight repositioning of the turrets. The rest is precisely replicated in high detail, right down to those odd bumps on the inner side of the arms. If anything, I'd bring Boanerges as an example of a "reimagined" model in Mediavps. And I'm only willing to put up with Boa because the sole alternative is a retail model. If we didn't have a decent Herc II already, this one could possibly go in.

The Cain's detail is an entire departure from the retail model's other than that one bit. The lower two arms aren't as angled as on the retail mesh (they're more 'flat' along the horizontal axis), the angle of the tips of the arms is flipped, the side of it around the missile launcher is all changed, and the bottom completely ignores the texture. In fact, I'd say that, much like our Herc 2, the main thing it has in common is the general shape and placement of things.

I was more posting that example to see if you're consistent or not. Well, the result is fairly obvious now.

Shivan models are another story. While the Cain and Lilith are as old as FS1 is, c915 had a big field for his imagination HTLing them. HTL Demon that Esarai is making is a big departure from the original, but these are shivan ships and they are many ways to HTL them. You just have to keep them semi-organic, and there are many ways to do this. Both Esarai and c914 are great at this. This Herc is terran ship, and while it should resemble original design as much as it's possible, this one is better than the original. I would accept this as HTL Herc II, because it's cool. I'm not sure if this should become MediaVP Herc II... Well, dunno. It's not depending on me. I just wish you guys goodluck on this. This model is welcome no matter if it appear in MediaVPs or as independent download.

This is literally arguable for every single race. There's a ton you can do with the Typhon, Hecate, and Orion. Esarai's detail is actually fairly well inspired from the retail texture (go look at the top of the head and at his).

Again, you've got to be consistent. There's the Aesthma, which also resembles the original fighter in shape and placement mainly, would you argue against it too? Consistency, folks. It's incredibly important.

[Phantom Hoover]

I've thought about this and I think the reason I'd give the Cain a pass is that whilst it does have some significant departures from the retail appearance, it's still modelled in the same spirit. Whereas what you and Aesaar have done is declared that the retail Herc 2 is a piece of **** and you're going to make your own, better version. And your model is excellent, it's just explicitly not a Herc 2.

[General Battuta]

The retail Cain and the HTL look pretty much the same to me, the HTL just seems like a faithful update.

Anyway I'm with Betrayal, just make a cool model and we'll figure out what to do with it afterward.

[mjn.mixael]

So let's call a spade a spade then...

If someone dislikes this model as an HTL Herc 2 they...

A: Agree that the HTL Lilith is also too much a departure from the original and thus this the person is obligated to accept this model as a Herc 2.
B: Disagree that the HTL Lilith is also too much a departure from the original and thus the person is a hippocrite.

[Dragon]

Except nope:

The retail Cain and the HTL look pretty much the same to me, the HTL just seems like a faithful update.

Lilith isn't too much of a departure from the retail model. Both it and Cain are faithful HTLs, as Battuta said. FS1 models are noticeably less detailed than FS2 ones, meaning more leeway is possible. The new Demon isn't that much of a departure from the FS1 one, either, but that's because you can't really depart from something so bland without making it unrecognizable (indeed, there was a big discussion about what to do with Demon, because it doesn't give you a lot of clues on additional detail that could be modeled). Much like with Cain, you only need to replicate certain distinctive features, because there's hardly anything in the model aside from them. Now, Herc II is a different story, being an FS2 model, and thus more detail to go off. This model is clearly a different thing than Herc II, while the Herc II currently in Mediavps is a faithful update, if old-ish.

[General Battuta]

How about we have this argument after the model's done.

[SypheDMar]

Seeing as how the modelers themselves are comparing this to the current/retail Herc II, it would be unfair to judge the model on its own merit.


I prefer the  Herc II because of its consistency with the other FS2 Terran crafts: the curves. It's what "differentiates" FS2 Terrans from FS1s by the time of FS2 retail. Thematically, the sleek ship designs are what separates the GTVA from the NTF and the reactionaries from progress.

As it stands now, the Herc II looks too blocky because it doesn't fit in with the rest of the Terran fighters. Maybe when you're done with your shipset, the ships will look great together. But right now, it doesn't fit in with its sleeker cousins.

One thing of note: If you don't mirror the UV map and happen to be able to add the 02 back to the Herc II, that would be awesome.

EDIT: If we were to judge this model on its own, whoever said that this ship might have been a failed competitor or prototype is pretty spot on in my opinion. It could even be the Herc II from Earth. If the Herc's performance was so legendary that even the GTVA decided to have a successor ready in 32 years, it's not implausible that the Hercs were remembered in alternate universes either.

[Phantom Hoover]

Look, they've claimed they're not submitting this as an FSU model, and it's been moved out of the FSU board by a mod. I think that aspect of the argument is pretty much settled now: can we discuss this as a realisation of Starslayer's concept art, and nothing more?

For my part I agree with Starslayer that it'd benefit from having the guns flush with the weapon pods.

[SypheDMar]

Look, they've claimed they're not submitting this as an FSU model, and it's been moved out of the FSU board by a mod. I think that aspect of the argument is pretty much settled now: can we discuss this as a realisation of Starslayer's concept art, and nothing more?

No they didn't, and no it's not. You can't argue for something to be say that this is better than the original's concept and then not compare this to the original.

Off-topic: By the way, Hades has been known to impress me with his more "complete" WIPs. I hope this will be the case as well.