Author Topic: Some assorted questions  (Read 5044 times)

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Some assorted questions
Hi.

I had a lot of questions, but didn't really want to make a dedicated thread for each of them. Things could get pretty spammy that way, so I figured i'd post them all here. I hope that's okay.


Modelling:

-How do you go about detailing? I'm working on my second project at the moment, a fighter, and there's probably more opportunities to add detail/greebles then on my previous project, but i'm not exactly sure how to approach it. I understand that there's the knife tool, and the subsurface modifier, but i'm not really sure how to get greebles in the vein of HTL models. Part of this is I don't know how to make nice looking greebles, but also because it seems like a waste of polys, memory, and a substantial increase in time needed to UV/texture just to, say, put a little bump around the edge of a wing - that you won't even see ingame from more then 200m away. Am I looking at this the wrong way, or is there a right way and a wrong way to detail? And how do you go about it?

-Making my debris took me longer then making the actual model, and it looks worse then the retail debris. Is there an easier way to go about it then randomly slicing stuff up with the knife tool and filling in the remaining faces (and moving stuff around to make it manifold? Specifically, the "full volume" debris this link talks about.

-Modelling with UVing in mind - what does this mean?

-I'm not going to lie - it's a little intimidating just starting out and spending all of 2 hours trying to extrude a tube with ends of different sizes, and then you finish and have wonderful models like the Erebus to compare what you've done to. Now, obviously the answer to "How to get better" is "Practice"; Rome wasn't built in a day, after all, but would anyone care to share some general tips for how to improve? I see most of the stuff that's been done and I go "I actually don't know how you could make that". I figure there must be some way to go about it: after all, you could hypothetically 'practice' just by making cylinders over and over.



Texturing:

-Is there a "Texturing for dummies" guide somewhere? I followed this as an example (I didn't make the model in the tutorial, I just looked at it for reference regarding UVing and texturing) and I was confused and afraid. The closest I got to something remotely usable was a dummy white texture with random splotches of colour which I used for testing. I dread texturing more then anything else - and quite frankly would rather experience UV hell over and over then try to texture at this point in time.



Ingame:

-I'm working on a fighter at the moment that i'd like to constantly spam BP-esque flares out the back, as a method of defence (Similar to what's planned for the UEF Bombers). I remember somewhere there was discussion of mounting flares to capships, but i'm not sure if this was ever followed up/followed through on. I'm aware you can do this in FRED/script it, but i'd like to actually like to link it to the fighter itself - so you can place it into a mission and it will just work. I've not experimented with countermeasures before; I believe it might be a bit more complicated then just making a turret and having it shoot countermeasures, or something. How, if possible, could this be achieved?

-Likewise, i'd love to be able to give fighters abilities independently: Fighter A has the ability to boost engines with unlimited afterburner, Fighter B has the ability to regenerate shields, Fighter C has the ability to change weapons temporarily, etc. I'd still like to link these weapons to the actual fighters themselves, rather then checking the ship class and then activating the appropriate ability in FRED. This would likely require LUA scripting, of which I have zero experience (I tried to follow the guide on the wiki, and ended up knowing less then I knew before I started). Is this possible to do? (As an extension: Would it be possible to add the Capship turret targeting script independently, if it's not already?)

-Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe when a beam is fired it doesn't move with the ship; it will attempt to stay firing on the targeted co-ordinates (Unless it's a fire down normal beam). If this isn't the case, is there a way to change this behaviour? As an example: Say the beam targets (an object) 20 degrees up and 30 degrees to the right of its normal; even if the ship turns sharply it will keep firing at that spot. Likewise, if a slash beam was to cut an arc across the target 40 degrees above the horizon, if the ship rotated suddenly then it would by and large miss (more then slash beams usually do). If there is a way, is it possible to tie it to that ship? (eg: preferably not hidden behind an AI profile flag)

-I once tried to recreate a missile I saw once upon a time that had a single large missile that split into many smaller sub-munitions which proceeded to home in (accurately; significantly more so then piranha/slammer children) on the target. I haven't had much luck trying to mimic this kind of behaviour with spawned children missiles; and I fear I might be missing something simple. Is it possible to do something like this?

-Likewise, is it possible for SSM strike missiles/children of SSM strike missiles to home in on their 'target'?

-Is there a way for a "CIWS" flagged weapon's explosion to instantly destroy bombs hit by the shockwave without upping the damage, the EMP/Electronics flag, or significant armor.tbl trickery? I believe bombs either have 25 or 50 HP by default, so an explosion of 20 damage shouldn't be able to destroy them instantly.


------------

I believe that's everything for now - i'm probably missing a few things, but that's more than enough.

Thank you very much in advance!
« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 09:13:31 pm by Neptune »

 

Offline Nyctaeus

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Re: Some assorted questions
So let's have some feedback from the most retarded modeller here:

Greebles: The only thing I can say is: Practice!
Try different approaches, experiment with various shapes, look for inspiration from models of veteran 3D artists here. Don't worry about the polycount. As long as you have minimal number of individual textures, game will handle it well. I personally go for one texture for greebles and details, and one for hullplating [or two. I used two textures once in my biggest model]. There are bassicly two schools of making details.

One: Bigger details, visible from longer distances and generally poly-saving if your polycount really matter for you. Details of models done this way have high polycount as well, but majority of them comes from variations of general shape, and not from large amount of detailboxes. If course smaller details are also present, but they are not countless. I found this method as actually the most efficient way of making hi-poly warships. My newer models are example of this method, especially the Lindos. Notable users of this method are Trashman, Raven2001 and of course myself.

Second: Bigger amount of smaller details. The most popular and easier method I guess. It focuses on keeping general shape of the ship rather simple and flat from long distances, but causing an eyegasm when the fighter is close. Majority of the HTL models made this way uses a lot of detailboxes - non magnifold subobjects which disappear at certain distance to the player. A lot of experianced modelers uses this, including Aesaar, Hades, Black Wolf and Col.Hornet. GTCa Hera is very good example of model made using this method.

Third: Mixed - A ballanced result between two mentioned above. I used it before I started to focus more on larger details and general shape variations. I still make detailboxes, but as I mentioned before, bigger things are more important. Ballance between larger details and greebles is preferred by the most veteran modellers of HLP like Vasudan Admiral, Galactic Emperor or Oddgrim. Any model of one of mentioned modellers will be a good example.

***

Modelling with mapping in mind? Well... More or less, it mean you should avoiding doing large amount of details which will be extremly time consuming during the mapping stage. I mean lots of internal faces, very strange shapes, extreme curvatures etc. Why? Because you are like to ragequit from Blender mapping it, or you will waste your time for completly invisible polygons. UVmapping is like preparing model for converting it into cardboard made one. Make your models easy to be divided on proper segments. Avoid making details which you have no idea how to split into efficient UVmaps. The lesser the isles - the better. Lot's of small, strange faces is mostly the worst think the texture artist can have, including the situation when texture artist is also the modeller.

***

Debris: Who cares about debris :D? Okay, some of us. I personally still use knife tool to get basic shape and fill the gap, but often enchance it with more holes, fragments of main skeleton of the ship poking out from the debris etc. And of course, windows! Dead ships don't have lights. Make separate texture for your debris, based on actual diffuse, make it darker, add some blackening here and everywhere, some scratches, some holes...

***

The texturing itself is the tricky part. I personally bake my textures from parts of others, and than I make custom adjusting in Photoshop but it's lazy and not the best way. There a lot of ways to make a base, including procedural textures from Blender, tools like SubstancePainter or Quixel... Graphics tablet is the best way in my opinion, but I'm too lazy to use it with every single model. It's also pretty time consuming. Go ahead and ask Oddgrim for some tips, if you have some. He's our dark master of making hand-painted textures. Also whatever you do, don't be afraid of using parts of existing textures. Everyone is doing that :D! Some of us, like me or Galemp make whole textures from parts of other maps.


The best way to start? Find some metal texture, apply it onto all the isles, and see how it looks. Now try to add some plating. Make some sections darker, some lighter, use different base materials, transplant some parts of tiles... Making textures is basicly a neverending series of experiments.
***

I dunno if this is any helpful ur understandable, but I hope I helped :P
« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 12:07:28 pm by Betrayal »
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Re: Some assorted questions
Oh wow, thanks for the fast response! I've been a bit busy to get back as promptly as you replied, my apologies.

So let's have some feedback from the most retarded modeller here:

Haha, considering I've joined now I can hardly say that's the case. :P

Quote
Greebles: The only thing I can say is: Practice!
Try different approaches, experiment with various shapes, look for inspiration from models of veteran 3D artists here. Don't worry about the polycount. As long as you have minimal number of individual textures, game will handle it well. I personally go for one texture for greebles and details, and one for hullplating [or two. I used two textures once in my biggest model]. There are bassicly two schools of making details.

Hmm, I see. So it's really the amount of textures that makes the biggest difference in slowdown, then? (And not so much an absurd amount of polys?) Wouldn't having a higher polycount make it harder to UV and map well, though?

Considering that if you have more details and say, 2 or 3 20482 textures fitting stuff on (at a reasonable level of detail) is going to be a bit of a nightmare. Or is there a bit of a trick to it?

Quote
One: Bigger details, visible from longer distances and generally poly-saving if your polycount really matter for you. Details of models done this way have high polycount as well, but majority of them comes from variations of general shape, and not from large amount of detailboxes. If course smaller details are also present, but they are not countless. I found this method as actually the most efficient way of making hi-poly warships. My newer models are example of this method, especially the Lindos. Notable users of this method are Trashman, Raven2001 and of course myself.

That Lindos is beautiful. Apart from generally not knowing how it was done (Did you make it with magnets, cause I don't know how it works) i'm so happy that another one of my favourite ships now has an updated design. I can't wait to see this thing frying things.

Quote
Second: Bigger amount of smaller details. The most popular and easier method I guess. It focuses on keeping general shape of the ship rather simple and flat from long distances, but causing an eyegasm when the fighter is close. Majority of the HTL models made this way uses a lot of detailboxes - non magnifold subobjects which disappear at certain distance to the player. A lot of experianced modelers uses this, including Aesaar, Hades, Black Wolf and Col.Hornet. GTCa Hera is very good example of model made using this method.

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is a detailbox? You mentioned there it was a 'non manifold subobject that dissapears when a certain distance to the player' - but arn't most greebles non-manifold?

Also, UVing that thing looks like a LOT of fun. :P

Quote
Make your models easy to be divided on proper segments. Avoid making details which you have no idea how to split into efficient UVmaps. The lesser the isles - the better. Lot's of small, strange faces is mostly the worst think the texture artist can have, including the situation when texture artist is also the modeller.

I'm not sure I follow here - I remember in the tutorial something about islands and edges and marking seams and stuff, but I honestly didn't understand any of it - I spent a lot of time just projecting from view, smart projecting large empty bits, and manually projecting smaller bits/faces.

Quote
Debris: Who cares about debris :D? Okay, some of us. I personally still use knife tool to get basic shape and fill the gap, but often enchance it with more holes, fragments of main skeleton of the ship poking out from the debris etc. And of course, windows! Dead ships don't have lights. Make separate texture for your debris, based on actual diffuse, make it darker, add some blackening here and everywhere, some scratches, some holes...

Diffuse? As I mentioned, I know pretty much nothing about textures, apart from they're the things that makes your model look pretty.

I see...So really, debris is going to be the time consuming bit no matter what?


Quote
The texturing itself is the tricky part. I personally bake my textures from parts of others, and than I make custom adjusting in Photoshop but it's lazy and not the best way. There a lot of ways to make a base, including procedural textures from Blender, tools like SubstancePainter or Quixel...

Oh gee, I got this far and my head started to hurt. Bake? Procedural textures? Quixel? I have enough trouble with Microsoft paint. :P

Quote
Also whatever you do, don't be afraid of using parts of existing textures. Everyone is doing that :D! Some of us, like me or Galemp make whole textures from parts of other maps.

The best way to start? Find some metal texture, apply it onto all the isles, and see how it looks. Now try to add some plating. Make some sections darker, some lighter, use different base materials, transplant some parts of tiles... Making textures is basicly a neverending series of experiments.

I see, that helps a lot...perhaps i'll give it a go next time around. That's some language I can understand!


Quote
I dunno if this is any helpful ur understandable, but I hope I helped :P

It was a huge help, and honestly I didn't expect such an in-depth and detailed response! It's certainly a constant learning process - but hopefully i'll get there in the end. Once again, thanks a bunch!

 

Offline Nyctaeus

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Re: Some assorted questions
Hmm, I see. So it's really the amount of textures that makes the biggest difference in slowdown, then? (And not so much an absurd amount of polys?) Wouldn't having a higher polycount make it harder to UV and map well, though?
Yup. Look at current MVP Sathanas. It has more than 300k if I remember correctly and it handles extremly well even on not top-grade computers. Mostly because FSO engine was optimized for high-poly models, but unfortunately not for large textures. The perfect situation for large, high-poly capship is one texture for everything [including debris] and eventual nameplate as the second [in case of terran ships]. The biggest problem of this solution is texture quality that decrases the smaller the isles are, so the biggest models use 2-3 textures. Models with 20-40k polys are the best for mapping them with single texture. Check out my SCv Scylla. It's the best example that comes to my mind.

Considering that if you have more details and say, 2 or 3 20482 textures fitting stuff on (at a reasonable level of detail) is going to be a bit of a nightmare. Or is there a bit of a trick to it?
Play a bit with Blender tools. Blender know how to arrange uv isles automatically in UV window [Pack Islands option]. You can make all of the isles first, and than let Blender arrange them for you. Keep in mind that Blender will only arrange selected isles. Now you can split all your isles into separate materials. Select half of the model [for example], than check out if every isle is complete and use Pack Isles. Go to Properities window, select "Materials", and apply all your selected and aranged isles to it. Now go to the 3D View, invert your selection and do the same with rest of the isles, and assign them to second material. Now your model use two textures.

That Lindos is beautiful. Apart from generally not knowing how it was done (Did you make it with magnets, cause I don't know how it works) i'm so happy that another one of my favourite ships now has an updated design. I can't wait to see this thing frying things.
I took hammer and chisel and... Ok, I'm joking. I was using only a hatchet :P. It's still WiP anyway.
[tons of snapping, beveling, subdividing, inserting]

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is a detailbox? You mentioned there it was a 'non manifold subobject that dissapears when a certain distance to the player' - but arn't most greebles non-manifold?
Select your non-magnifold greeble, and separate it from main model [Ctrl + P]. Now go to Object Mode, select Tools setion, find Set Origin [keeping your detailbox submodel marked] and choose "Origin to geometry". Now go to Outliner window, grab your submodel, drag it onto main model and release. Your main model will be parent, when the greeble become the child model. You just set a small hierarchy. I guess you did that before with turrets of the Olemus.

Later in PCS2 find your greeble on submodel list, and place something like this in properities:
Code: [Select]
$detail_box: 1
$box_min: -2200,-2200,-2200
$box_max: 2200,2200,2200
You have your detailbox :P.

I'm not sure I follow here - I remember in the tutorial something about islands and edges and marking seams and stuff, but I honestly didn't understand any of it - I spent a lot of time just projecting from view, smart projecting large empty bits, and manually projecting smaller bits/faces.
I'm not sure how to explain it better :P. UVing is tricky. I rarely use seams at all, and a lot of my isles comes from project from view. I guess you just need practice. Any method you know is good as long as it won't stretch your texture. Try Smart UV Project with biggest angle for medium-sized isles. Test your isles sometimes on some texture [temporarly] to know if you got the proper and non-streched result.

Diffuse? As I mentioned, I know pretty much nothing about textures, apart from they're the things that makes your model look pretty.
Diffuse is your main texture. As you know, FSO use main texture + 2-3 maps with prefixes. Diffuse is the texture withput any "-glow" or "-normal" prefixes.

I see...So really, debris is going to be the time consuming bit no matter what?
Depends on you. It's more time consuming than making LODs for example, but deffinitly not the worst part of the job. Simple debris are better than no debris at all :P.

Oh gee, I got this far and my head started to hurt. Bake? Procedural textures? Quixel? I have enough trouble with Microsoft paint. :P
I was never a good teacher xD. I don't know which soft you use for texturing things. If it's Gimp, so far stay with gimp and learn the basics :P.
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Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Some assorted questions
I could talk for ages on most of these subjects, and I probably will, later down the line, but for now, I'm going to focus on some basic ship creation tips.

First of all, a disclaimer. I suck at fighters. Terrible. Can't do 'em. My brain doesn't work that way for whatever reason. Keep that in mind when you read this stuff. Also, for modelling, I use 3ds Max, not blender, for UVing, I use Ultimate Unwrap 3D, and for texturing I use Paint Shop Pro, not Photoshop,so my ability to give useful, program specific tips is, err, essentially nil. But I think I can still help.

With that out of the way, some basic tips.

The single most important thing I've learned modelling for FS is, as much as possible, try not to think of the process as three separate steps of modelling, then UV mapping, then texturing. The process can be much more integrated than that. For example, a very typical workflow for me will be to start building a base mesh, build a greeble, export and UV the greeble, reimport and duplicate the greeble, then continue modelling the base mesh. Lecturing is the same. I'll be constantly tweaking and optimising the UV map, even the mesh itself, as I come across issues or get ideas during the texture phase.

This is important, because far too often you'll come across people who are fairly talented modellers, who can't UV or texture. That leads to beautiful, detailed models that never go anywhere because they lack the skills to complete them themselves, and then when someone else tries, they're monsters to UV map because they weren't built with UVing in mind. Integrating the whole process makes it easier.

Modelling with UVing in mind is a tricky thing to teach, especially if you haven't really got a handle on UVing yet. But there are several basic things I do that do help.

1. Never duplicate an greeble that hasn't been UV mapped. Otherwise you'll have to do the same UV process over and over again, then align all the UVed polies on the map so that the greebles can use the same texture space. First build. Second UV. Third Duplicate.

2. Don't build a greeble out of a single piece if you can build it out of smaller pieces. This is related to the above. Look at the engine nozzles on this, a design I shamelessly stole from Hades. Each one of those little tabs is an individually UVed mesh that I replicated and rotated after it had been UVed. The result is a greeble that looks quite detailed, and is quite detailed, but that is made from smaller, simpler pieces. They don't all have to be identical either, but consider if there's an easy way to build a greeble from simpler shapes before making a big single complex one. You'll have an easier UV and you'll often save polies.

3. Wherever possible, model with exact precision. Digital modelling let's you position your vertices down to 0.001 of a unit. Use this ability. If you're building something that's meant to be a perfect mirror image, make it a perfect mirror image, not just "close enough". When you UV identical geometry, you can use the same textures. This often looks great, but more importantly makes the texturing easier - but it you build your model rough and ready, and your symmetry is close, but not perfect, it's often impossible to line up your UV islands right.

4. Wherever possible, work in straight lines (or the potential for straight lines). This one is a little complex, and it's related to the above point. Circles, hexagons, triangles - you need these shapes on your model. But it's a royal pain to draw a texture on anything other than a 90 degree angle, for all sorts of reasons (most prominently the fact that you can't create a 1 pixel width line on any other angle). So when you're building, think about how you can orient your polies so that they'll end up on a straight line when you UV.

An example will help here. Imagine you want to model a docking bay with angled walls into your ship, and you want to put a ring of lights or warning stripes around it. You can do this by simply cutting a hole into your surface, and extruding a little cavity, but when you go to draw those lights, you'll have to draw them at the eagle of the walls. Instead, cut your hole, then bevel in a little to give yourself a series of polies around the hole. Then, you can UV those polies on to a straight line, making texturing your lights far, far easier.

I know that's not a good explanation, I'll try to add a picture tomorrow.

5. Finally, try to imagine how you're going to UV and texture every single poly you build. This is extremely hard of you don't know the capabilities of your UV software, so it will take time. The lights around the bay above is an example - in that case, you add a few more "useless" polies (I.e. Polies that the player can't tell are there though elevation changes or whatever) so that you can separately UV them and make your life easier later. Another example might be building an off-axis cylindrical shape. If you're mindful of your UVing, you'll know to build the shape on an axis, then UV it on that axis before rotating it. Thing like that are tricky to remember when you're first starting (and there are a thousand better examples I can't think of the wrong side of midnight), but they'll make a huge difference down the line.

Will try to post more tomorrow.
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Re: Some assorted questions
Thanks a bunch for the help guys!

Quote from: Betrayal
Mostly because FSO engine was optimized for high-poly models, but unfortunately not for large textures.

I see, I see. So would it be better to use...say, 1 40962 texture, or multiple smaller textures that make up roughly the same area?

Quote
Play a bit with Blender tools. Blender know how to arrange uv isles automatically in UV window [Pack Islands option].

Ooh, that sounds like a really handy kind of tool. Thanks!

Quote
I was using only a hatchet

Now I know what I was doing wrong! I've been using a pickaxe all this time! :P

Quote
[tons of snapping, beveling, subdividing, inserting]

I haven't even heard of 3 of those and only sorta recently heard of subdividing, so i'll take a look into them. Cheers!

Quote
You have your detailbox

Ahh, I get it - so it's a subobject and the "box" defined in the .pof properties is where it's visable from. I get it now. Thanks!

Quote
UVing is tricky.

Truer words have never been spoken. :P

Quote
Diffuse is your main texture. As you know, FSO use main texture + 2-3 maps with prefixes. Diffuse is the texture withput any "-glow" or "-normal" prefixes.

Oh, okay. Bit of a weird name for it, but I get it now!

Quote
Simple debris are better than no debris at all

That's true! Besides, i'd rather cool looking explosions then cool looking debris  :drevil:

Quote
I was never a good teacher xD. I don't know which soft you use for texturing things. If it's Gimp, so far stay with gimp and learn the basics

You've been a great help in making things understandable so far. And i've only fiddled with Gimp so far.

---

Quote from: Black Wolf
Also, for modelling, I use 3ds Max, not blender, for UVing, I use Ultimate Unwrap 3D, and for texturing I use Paint Shop Pro, not Photoshop,so my ability to give useful, program specific tips is, err, essentially nil. But I think I can still help.

Oh gee. That's a bunch of different programs! Is that just personal preference, or is it more efficient to do so?

Quote
For example, a very typical workflow for me will be to start building a base mesh, build a greeble, export and UV the greeble, reimport and duplicate the greeble, then continue modelling the base mesh. Lecturing is the same. I'll be constantly tweaking and optimising the UV map, even the mesh itself, as I come across issues or get ideas during the texture phase.

I'm not quite sure I follow here. "duplicate the greeble"? My understanding of "greebling" was something akin to "Adding details to a basic mesh" - so all the little cylinders, pipes, bumps, etc. Considering most of those I see on those p3d things (and in PCS) are manifold with the base mesh, how are they duplicated? (Especially the UVs?) And "tweaking and optimising the UV map"? As far as I was aware, as long as there was minimal stretching, it was good.

Quote
This is important, because far too often you'll come across people who are fairly talented modellers, who can't UV or texture. That leads to beautiful, detailed models that never go anywhere because they lack the skills to complete them themselves, and then when someone else tries, they're monsters to UV map because they weren't built with UVing in mind. Integrating the whole process makes it easier.

Ahh, see, this is what I wanted to avoid as much as possible. Fortunately, i'm a mediocre all rounder, so i'm capable of making retail level models and getting them ingame!

Quote
Each one of those little tabs is an individually UVed mesh that I replicated and rotated after it had been UVed. The result is a greeble that looks quite detailed, and is quite detailed, but that is made from smaller, simpler pieces.

Couldn't you achieve the same result with the mirror modifier, so that you only had to do it once anyway? Or again, perhaps i'm not following.

Quote
Wherever possible, model with exact precision. Digital modelling let's you position your vertices down to 0.001 of a unit. Use this ability. If you're building something that's meant to be a perfect mirror image, make it a perfect mirror image, not just "close enough".

I try to do this for the sake of OCD anyway, so that works :P Sometimes it's a bit of a pain if I have to freehand some verticies, but I digress.

Quote
I know that's not a good explanation, I'll try to add a picture tomorrow.

Haha, that's fine - no rush, especially since I haven't been able to do any modelling for a little bit. I am curious how being mindful with UVs is supposed to work with, say, a subdivide surface modifier (or the 3ds equivalent).

Thank you both again for your help!

 
Re: Some assorted questions
Sorry to bump this topic. I wasn't sure if it was appropriate, or how long you should leave it for...but I figured a few days should be all right.

I was wondering if anyone could help - or point me in the right direction - of these bits, still:

Quote
Ingame:

-I'm working on a fighter at the moment that i'd like to constantly spam BP-esque flares out the back, as a method of defence (Similar to what's planned for the UEF Bombers). I remember somewhere there was discussion of mounting flares to capships, but i'm not sure if this was ever followed up/followed through on. I'm aware you can do this in FRED/script it, but i'd like to actually like to link it to the fighter itself - so you can place it into a mission and it will just work. I've not experimented with countermeasures before; I believe it might be a bit more complicated then just making a turret and having it shoot countermeasures, or something. How, if possible, could this be achieved?

-Likewise, i'd love to be able to give fighters abilities independently: Fighter A has the ability to boost engines with unlimited afterburner, Fighter B has the ability to regenerate shields, Fighter C has the ability to change weapons temporarily, etc. I'd still like to link these weapons to the actual fighters themselves, rather then checking the ship class and then activating the appropriate ability in FRED. This would likely require LUA scripting, of which I have zero experience (I tried to follow the guide on the wiki, and ended up knowing less then I knew before I started). Is this possible to do? (As an extension: Would it be possible to add the Capship turret targeting script independently, if it's not already?)

-Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe when a beam is fired it doesn't move with the ship; it will attempt to stay firing on the targeted co-ordinates (Unless it's a fire down normal beam). If this isn't the case, is there a way to change this behaviour? As an example: Say the beam targets (an object) 20 degrees up and 30 degrees to the right of its normal; even if the ship turns sharply it will keep firing at that spot. Likewise, if a slash beam was to cut an arc across the target 40 degrees above the horizon, if the ship rotated suddenly then it would by and large miss (more then slash beams usually do). If there is a way, is it possible to tie it to that ship? (eg: preferably not hidden behind an AI profile flag)

-I once tried to recreate a missile I saw once upon a time that had a single large missile that split into many smaller sub-munitions which proceeded to home in (accurately; significantly more so then piranha/slammer children) on the target. I haven't had much luck trying to mimic this kind of behaviour with spawned children missiles; and I fear I might be missing something simple. Is it possible to do something like this?

-Likewise, is it possible for SSM strike missiles/children of SSM strike missiles to home in on their 'target'?

-Is there a way for a "CIWS" flagged weapon's explosion to instantly destroy bombs hit by the shockwave without upping the damage, the EMP/Electronics flag, or significant armor.tbl trickery? I believe bombs either have 25 or 50 HP by default, so an explosion of 20 damage shouldn't be able to destroy them instantly.

 

Offline ssmit132

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Re: Some assorted questions
I suggest that questions like the one regarding beams would be more suitable for the Coding forum, since I don't believe that changing beam behaviour like that is something that can be done with tabling or scripting, at least right now. Plus you'd be more likely to get a response from a coder there.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Some assorted questions
I don't want to start a new thread, so I'll add a few question here:


1) I'm experiencing FS2 crashes when some specific ships are destroyed. Currenlty it's the HTL Lucifer and HLD Mefdef - both ships blew up nicely before, same models, same everything. I checked both model in PCS and they look fine, debris is fine.

2) Do you guys consider shown/rendered primaries a good thing? How do all these extra subobjects affect performance?
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Offline Nyctaeus

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Re: Some assorted questions
I don't want to start a new thread, so I'll add a few question here:


1) I'm experiencing FS2 crashes when some specific ships are destroyed. Currenlty it's the HTL Lucifer and HLD Mefdef - both ships blew up nicely before, same models, same everything. I checked both model in PCS and they look fine, debris is fine.

2) Do you guys consider shown/rendered primaries a good thing? How do all these extra subobjects affect performance?
1. Log?
2. No, external mounting is definitly not the worst FPS killer here and they are cool. Just avoid long activation animations. Steve-O's models used as UEF fighters and bombers have this annoying feature. It really pisses me off when I switch between primary types and I cannot fire for 2 seconds because of animation.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Some assorted questions
Nothing in he log files.

errorlog and FS2_open log are both empty.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Some assorted questions
Does anyone remember that old program for FS that used ot generate Terran, Vasudan and Shivna (and other tempalte) ship names?

Name Mage?
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

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Re: Some assorted questions
Nothing in he log files.

errorlog and FS2_open log are both empty.

Where did you look for the log files? They aren't kept in the same place anymore.
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Offline Nyctaeus

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Re: Some assorted questions
Nothing in he log files.

errorlog and FS2_open log are both empty.
Well... Current HTL Lucifer is extremly well-tested and working. When I worked with Mefdef for the last time, it caused no problems. Also I've seen it a few times in custom campaigns [including FoW II] and all worked just fine. Maybe the real problem is not model-related, but something with your drivers?
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Offline Mito [PL]

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Re: Some assorted questions
About the beams: you could check out how beams fire at gliding objects with a little experiment. Just launch The Blade Itself or go to the Dreamscape training before One Future mission in Blue Planet. You pilot a capship, and enemies fire beams at you. I found out that beams seem to be "attached" to a certain location in space when fired, both slash and direct-fire ones: gliding sideways while facing an enemy vessel results in its beams barely scratching you and then burning right into empty space.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Some assorted questions
Nothing in he log files.

errorlog and FS2_open log are both empty.
Well... Current HTL Lucifer is extremly well-tested and working. When I worked with Mefdef for the last time, it caused no problems. Also I've seen it a few times in custom campaigns [including FoW II] and all worked just fine. Maybe the real problem is not model-related, but something with your drivers?

I don't understand it.
Lucifer blows up fine in different campaigns. Other ships blow up fine.
log files? I look in Freespace2/Data

EDIT: Nope, I change to a different ship, still happens. Odd....

It seems to happen when a ship is exploding while another is jumping in. I'll have to test this more
When some capital ships explode, freeze.
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Offline niffiwan

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Re: Some assorted questions
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,56279.msg1180359.html#msg1180359

Re the log; if you're using a nightly, look here:
%appdata%\HardLightProductions\FreeSpaceOpen\data

If you're using 3.7.4 or earlier, and you've installed FS2 into Program Files then it might be here:
C:\Users\<Your Username>\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files (x86)\<Rest of the path to your FS2 directory>\data
Creating a fs2_open.log | Red Alert Bug = Hex Edit | MediaVPs 2014: Bigger HUD gauges | 32bit libs for 64bit Ubuntu
----
Debian Packages (testing/unstable): Freespace2 | wxLauncher
----
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Some assorted questions
Odd...this time I change the arrival time of the other ship and it didn't crash.

It did crash later, when the other ship in question (Mefdef) warped in, but it did so in the middle of he fight.

EDIT: A few more tests later.
It's not the Lucifer. The Mefdef was also in the mission, it was causing it. Confirmed for definite cause. Not even when blowing up, rather during a fight.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Some assorted questions
What does "Unidentified priority group 'Fighter' set for objecttype 'Fighter'" mean and how do I fix that message?
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Some assorted questions
Doing some testing with the debug build. I get a lot of "inverted bounding box" errors (have of he models aren't even mine)

and this:
Code: [Select]
Assert: strstr( (const char *)&props, "$glow_texture=") != NULL
File: modelread.cpp
Line: 1931

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! SCP_DumpStack + 354 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! WinAssert + 194 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! read_model_file + 15069 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! model_load + 806 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! ss_load_icons + 349 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! ss_load_all_icons + 221 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! ship_select_common_init + 128 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! red_alert_init + 524 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! game_enter_state + 714 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! gameseq_set_state + 303 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! game_process_event + 301 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! gameseq_process_events + 149 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! game_main + 787 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! WinMain + 328 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! invoke_main + 30 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! __scrt_common_main_seh + 346 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! __scrt_common_main + 13 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! WinMainCRTStartup + 8 bytes
kernel32.dll! BaseThreadInitThunk + 18 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlInitializeExceptionChain + 99 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlInitializeExceptionChain + 54 bytes

Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!