Author Topic: General forum game discussion  (Read 44683 times)

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Offline Spoon

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Re: General forum game discussion
Fair point, should I also post the final still frame then?

Also, Spoon, in the interest of fair play, can you please check the money and resources that the various factions have spent/ acquired this turn? I'm especially looking at Resources for the DD, which somehow don't add up for me, but A) I might be wrong and B) There might be other mistakes...
Will do (tomorrow)
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Re: General forum game discussion
What did you expect? - Due to it's ability to fire multiple times the Starbase was quite a risk to keep around. And since darting into/out of combat is currently the CRF's only strength over the DD we need the space to maneuver in.

But in a related subject, I am very glad you moved the Garrison Fleet :D If you had not, the 3rd CRF would probably attacked it as part of the Valor order (because how Fire at Will is worded)... and that had not gone as well as the attack on the Starbase
I had some CRF battle plans in mind that would have been pretty safe for you no matter what orders I could come up with. Also there would have been very limited or no exposure to the starbase. That stupid starbase was in the way of the garrison fleet as well...

Chances that the garrison fleet stayed at its position until the end were extremly low. Even if - it would have used its fire order before and while the 3rd CRF might have been unable to kill the center at range 0, it is still able to trash the starbase next turn with the first fire order. Add range 0 point defense and left-over firepower and the garrison fleet might be dead as well.

In the end the situation is better than expected and that's mostly thanks to whatever the 2nd CRF expected us to do...

Fair point, should I also post the final still frame then?
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Offline Spoon

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Re: General forum game discussion
Last still frames added to the post
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Offline Veers

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Re: General forum game discussion
I would like to chime in that I disagree with how the economy works via linking things back to your territory.

I'm indifferent with the current arrangement that you can gather resources/have a secured route to do so thanks to your allies. But you should have a secured route back to your own space first. So for the Delest to use the Valkyrie Shipyards, they can do so thanks to the UGC supply lines (read: resources. The UGC would be the only ones to benefit from the generate resources at this time) but do make use of it with their own resources/add to their own resource pool. They should have a link to their home systems. (that gets a bit complicated. Simplified version of, secure both sides of the lance. Works better)

So basically, would need to secure the lances to Ihefulian and Serpens, both lances being in Aldebaran.

But I guess on the other hand, as the system is under their control (is it?, colour only changes on the refinery and not the entire system?) you can kinda write that off saying they only need to secure the lance in Serpens.

I just read it more like how the CRF captured the Uuni Lance. We have both sides secure, rather than the Aldebaran lances which are "One-Way".

Let's see if I can summarise.

- Captured locations within an enemy system should have secured lances back to home territory for usage.
-- Marked by both sides of lances being secured in friendly colours. Allied lances also fulfil this. Minus the natural risk if your ally is no longer your ally. Severing the supply line.

- In the current turn example, for the DD to use the Valykire yards, they need to have the Ihefulian and Serpens lances in Aldebaran secure. If they only secure the Serpens lance, then they can access the yards but lose the supply line if the DD/UGC allience was terminated (theoretically. For the example)

- Both sides of lance should be secured for civilian traffic/resource traffic. Rather than just one side. If only one side is secured, say the Serpens System side. Resources could be carried back to friendly territory but income taffic cannot so production cannot be used? Or such. Adds additional complexity over basic. Secure both sides.

Edit:

With current wording, for Harcon as the example
Quote from: Soon
Harcon Shipyards has no direct friendly/neutral starlance route leading to a DD planet, facility cannot be used for repair and produces no resources until a route is secured.

Makes the above irrelevant again as a neutral lance functions the same as a friendly lance. It just makes more sense in my head to have both lances (sides of) secure first, rather than just the one.
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Offline niffiwan

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Re: General forum game discussion
Last still frames added to the post

tyvm Sir Spoon!
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Offline Enioch

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Re: General forum game discussion
I would like to chime in that I disagree with how the economy works via linking things back to your territory. [...]

I see what you mean, but I do not agree.

We have established that Neutral = not dangerous. I see no reason why supplies and raw materials would not easily flow through a neutral starlance - both ways. There is a possibility that, in the actual game, some random event might punish you for not securing starlances (e.g. pirate fleet spawns) and that might be an interesting twist but now I'm theorycrafting.

Furthermore, basing your supply and 'forward shipbuilding' economy on an unbroken chain of secured Lances would make any forward advance a crawl. You'd need to build up a wrecking ball of fleets and leapfrog slowly forward a la steamroller - and there's no way your enemy wouldn't realise you're coming, resulting in huge 3-vs-3 fleet battles. That's all good and there's a place for that, but it shouldn't be the only option. Utilising neutral starlances allows for more raiding / guerilla / backstabbing strategies and rewards admirals for outmaneuvering the enemy, establishing beachheads etc.

That said, I agree that securing starlances should have some purpose beyond changing the color on the map.

What if neutral starlances were sealed to traffic if a hostile (Cold War or War) unengaged Admiral fleet was in the system?

In the current map, Aldebaran is clear of any hostile forces and thus traffic flows. But if, for example, an SF fleet jumped in, it could 'threaten' the neutral starlances and make traffic impossible (send out patrols and commerce reaiding forces etc). If a UGCR fleet followed the SF fleet and engaged it, then the SF fleet would be tied down to defending itself and would be unable to hinder traffic for the duration of the battle.

EDIT: Thanks for the still maps Spoon!

Does the Starbase debris still hinder movement, or will it become regular terrain next turn?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 03:16:23 am by Enioch »
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Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: General forum game discussion
A question barrage:

1. If a fleet with an invasion fleet is destroyed by Subspace Torpedoes but the Invasion Fleet survives (because the Fleet carrying it had a lower strength), is that Invasion Fleet then destroyed as well? (if it were tactical combat it would be clear)

2. If a Fleet uses the Inhibitor as their first order can it then use Subspace Torpedoes as a 2nd order?

3.1. Can a Fleet prevent a hostile fleet from firing Subspace Torpedoes as 2nd order by using the Jump Inhibitor as 1st order?
3.2. If yes, what happens to the expended funds?

4. On to Advanced Subspace Drives, if a fleet with Advanced Drives makes 3 movements in one Strategic Phase how does that interact with the Jump Inhibitor or with hostile Subspace Torpedoes? (basically at what time resolves the 3rd move?)
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 10:38:22 am by 0rph3u5 »
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Offline Enioch

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Re: General forum game discussion
Heh, good questions. Hadn't considered the fluff affecting mechanics.

Sppon, have you had a chance to look at the Resources yet?
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Offline niffiwan

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Re: General forum game discussion
I have a question (not sure if I just missed the answer earlier): What does "Speed Doctrine" do? I've seen a description for all the other special tech, but not that one.
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Offline headdie

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Re: General forum game discussion
I have a question (not sure if I just missed the answer earlier): What does "Speed Doctrine" do? I've seen a description for all the other special tech, but not that one.
Its a SF Tech
Tech 2 Special technology:
Speed doctrine: When executed, immediately adds a +3 evasion bonus to all fleet types.
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-Cost: 2000/2000
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Offline niffiwan

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Re: General forum game discussion
tyvm
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Offline Spoon

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Re: General forum game discussion
Heh, good questions. Hadn't considered the fluff affecting mechanics.

Sppon, have you had a chance to look at the Resources yet?
fudge, I'm terrible and so easily distracted.
I'll put it on a postit note on my monitor so its impossible to forget for me tomorrow. I'll try and clean up the rules thread a bit and do something about the starbase's stats too.
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Offline Spoon

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Re: General forum game discussion
Starbase received 50 extra shields and 200 extra hull strength. Also looked at Delest's resources, which as Enoich fairly pointed out didn't quite match up for some reason. Has been corrected, resulted in 1100 less resources for DD.

A question barrage:

1. If a fleet with an invasion fleet is destroyed by Subspace Torpedoes but the Invasion Fleet survives (because the Fleet carrying it had a lower strength), is that Invasion Fleet then destroyed as well? (if it were tactical combat it would be clear)

2. If a Fleet uses the Inhibitor as their first order can it then use Subspace Torpedoes as a 2nd order?

3.1. Can a Fleet prevent a hostile fleet from firing Subspace Torpedoes as 2nd order by using the Jump Inhibitor as 1st order?
3.2. If yes, what happens to the expended funds?

4. On to Advanced Subspace Drives, if a fleet with Advanced Drives makes 3 movements in one Strategic Phase how does that interact with the Jump Inhibitor or with hostile Subspace Torpedoes? (basically at what time resolves the 3rd move?)
1. I've added this bit to the rules:
Invasion fleets:
Invasion fleets are constructed as a project by the Minister at a shipyard. Once constructed, they will need to be attached to a player fleet to move around. In tactical battle, an invasion fleet can be given up to four move commands, and it cannot use special commands, such as Valor. When an Invasion fleet arrives at an enemy controlled planet, there will be a drop point indicated on the tactical battlemap. If this Invasion fleet manages to reach this point, the planet will be immediately secured. Though if there is a Starbase still present, it will not immediately switch sides.
If the fleet the Invasion fleet is attached to gets destroyed by damage not directly dealt during tactical combat (by for example, subspace torpedoes) but the Invasion fleet survives the damage, it will not be destroyed along with the attached fleet. But it will not be able to move until another fleet can pick it up. An invasion fleet will be destroyed instantly if it makes contact with a hostile fleet and has not fleet around to protected it. (Just a Starbase is not enough)

2. Yes, WoD inhibitor tech is super convenient in that it only inhibits hostile subspace travel

3. I totally haven't considered this possibility. But it makes a lot of sense doesn't it? Let's go with yes in the case that both fleets are at the same location when this happens. Inhibitors prevent leaving, not entering.
3.2 Resources won't be expended in that case.

4. The third move would resolve at the very last. So it would get stopped by a Jump inhibitor field set up as a second order.


Regarding starlance securing, I like the current set up. And as Enioch said, if you have to secure every neutral starlance as well, it will really slow down the game pace.
Quote
In the current map, Aldebaran is clear of any hostile forces and thus traffic flows. But if, for example, an SF fleet jumped in, it could 'threaten' the neutral starlances and make traffic impossible (send out patrols and commerce reaiding forces etc). If a UGCR fleet followed the SF fleet and engaged it, then the SF fleet would be tied down to defending itself and would be unable to hinder traffic for the duration of the battle.
This might be interesting but I don't think that situation will come up a whole lot of times (so it'll just be one more thing for me to forget about  :p)

Quote
Does the Starbase debris still hinder movement, or will it become regular terrain next turn?
Will become an empty space (as seen in the aldebaran refinery map)
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 12:44:18 pm by Spoon »
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Offline Enioch

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Re: General forum game discussion
Nice. Now I feel fair. :p

May I ask for a further clarification on Jump inhibitors / phase torps?

I note that, the description of the torps is worded thusly:

Quote
These can be fired at any location in the system the fleet is currently in.

Does this mean that they may be fired 'danger close', in the location where the fleet currently is? ('Fire artillery on my position!') If yes, would such a launch be prevented by Jump inhibitors?

Also, just to make sure I get this: if the invasion fleet reaches the planet, the planet is secured but doesn't change sides unless the starbase is destroyed? What does this mean for resource gathering?

And if the enemy assault is repelled before the starbase is destroyed, (i.e. no enemy forces are present in the planet, with the exception of the successful invasion fleet), what happens then?

« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 01:09:34 pm by Enioch »
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Offline Spoon

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Re: General forum game discussion
Does this mean that they may be fired 'danger close', in the location where the fleet currently is? ('Fire artillery on my position!') If yes, would such a launch be prevented by Jump inhibitors?
Yes and Yes

Also, just to make sure I get this: if the invasion fleet reaches the planet, the planet is secured but doesn't change sides unless the starbase is destroyed? What does this mean for resource gathering?
The planet is secured and changes sides, but the starbase does not during the combat


And if the enemy assault is repelled before the starbase is destroyed, (i.e. no enemy forces are present in the planet, with the exception of the successful invasion fleet), what happens then?
If the invasion fleet reached the drop point, but the attacking fleet gets destroyed/repelled and the starbase is still intact.
Now there's kind of a special situation

What do you guys think should happen with the starbase in that situation?
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Offline Lorric

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Re: General forum game discussion
If the invasion fleet reached the drop point, but the attacking fleet gets destroyed/repelled and the starbase is still intact.
Now there's kind of a special situation

What do you guys think should happen with the starbase in that situation?
Resources are shipped to planets, so I don't see how it would impact resources for the faction owning the planet. Even if you did want to move resources from a planet to another location it would be easy to bypass the static starbase.

But with the starbase still there, it would be very easy for the faction owning it to use it to build an invasion fleet and re-take the planet. I imagine if there were no defenders there, just building said fleet would result in an instant changing of hands.

No repairs for the starbase if another faction owns the planet.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: General forum game discussion
Just an amusing thought I had. It takes longer for fleets to resolve battles between them than it takes to conquer an entire planet. You could conquer the entire Earth in one turn. :p

 

Offline Lepanto

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Re: General forum game discussion
I support keeping starbases of captured planets under the original owner's control. After all, the invasion fleet never captured the starbase, now did they? :p

And if the original owner can quickly retake it with an invasion fleet, that's what the attacker gets for invading a planet despite enemy orbital control.
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Offline Spoon

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Re: General forum game discussion
I realize it's technically already monday here and that I'm really late! Last turn of 2015!
This is absolutely because I was lazy and playing games of very important things! I can assure you!

From this point onward, a defeated Admiral has to wait at least 1 turn before he can be assigned a new fleet.

Also, with the animated gif for tactical battles, I don't feel like its necessary to type out every move order anymore. (Please agree with me, its kind of a drag :P) So from now on, it'll just list if a move is invalid for some reason, and fire results.
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Offline Veers

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Re: General forum game discussion
I actually prefer the text...

and I find the GIF moves too fast for me.

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