Author Topic: General forum game discussion  (Read 44828 times)

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Offline Enioch

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Re: General forum game discussion
1. Potential works as follows FYI:

Potential = Morale + Experience (e.g. 'Good' and 'Regular' nets you a 1 in potential. 'Superb' and regular nets you a 2. Superb and Experienced nets you a 3).

Potential x 10 = percentile added to evasion and damage.

So, a fleet with 3 potential has 130% evasion and every attack does 130% damage. This does NOT affect the chance of an attack to hit - just ups the damage it does IF it hits. keep this in mind for your calculations: low-chance attacks, such as your main batteries for those carriers do more damage when potential is up, but they have the same low chance to hit.

2. We're arguing different points. I understand how shields work. I am NOT arguing against the fact that they play a large part in DD fleet survivability. What I am saying is that I question whether paying 1000/3000 and requiring a refit for a 3% increase in shields is cost effective. I lean towards 'yes' (that's why I paid for the upgrade) but I'm on the fence and would like to hear how much other factions' fleet-upgrade projects cost. That's it.

3. Fair enough.
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: General forum game discussion
1. Potential works as follows FYI:

Potential = Morale + Experience (e.g. 'Good' and 'Regular' nets you a 1 in potential. 'Superb' and regular nets you a 2. Superb and Experienced nets you a 3).

Potential x 10 = percentile added to evasion and damage.

So, a fleet with 3 potential has 130% evasion and every attack does 130% damage. This does NOT affect the chance of an attack to hit - just ups the damage it does IF it hits. keep this in mind for your calculations: low-chance attacks, such as your main batteries for those carriers do more damage when potential is up, but they have the same low chance to hit.

Neither here or there is it explained as you do... so... yeah ... Confusion happened just now

EDIT: Note: A buff to accuracy also increases damage but doesn't increase the maximum possible damage (which is still caped by nshots x dper shot ) which matches up with the fluff text/simulation description of the Potential Characteristic. That is another reason (other then I found it easier for the math) why I factored it into my calculations like I did.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 01:04:56 pm by 0rph3u5 »
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

==================

"I am Curiosity, and I've always wondered what would become of you, here at the end of the world." - The Guide/The Curious Other, Othercide

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."

 

Offline Enioch

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Re: General forum game discussion
Quote
Fleet statistics:
Shields: Effectively serve as hitpoints that regenerate each new tactical combat turn.
Strength: Your fleet's hitpoints, unlike shields, these do not regenerate on their own. In order to repair this damage a fleet must be resupplied at a shipyard. Fleets below 50% strength suffer a 25% penalty to the damage they deal.
Evasion: A flat percentage to avoid a shot.
Experience: Fleet experience will go up one a level after a tactical combat*, and adds to the Potential. New fleets start at Regular (+0) and go up to Veteran (+1) and Elite (+2)
Garrison fleets do not gain Experience.
(*Actual combat, so no trying to raise your fleet experience by going into tactical combat with someone and not shooting at each other)
Morale: Like Experience, Morale adds to the Potential of a fleet. Morale is generally influenced by faction and Admiral achievements.
Morale ranges from Broken (-2), Shaken (-1), Ok (+0), Good (+1), Excellent (+2) and Zealous (+3)
Potential: There are several factors that can contribute to a fleet's effectiveness, such as good morale, crew experience, a solid commander in charge and so forth. But there is only so much a motivated crew can do to overcome technical limitations. This is reflected in a fleet's potential.
This stat affects a fleet's damage and evasion.

Example: The 101th UGCR fleet has a maximum potential of 4, it has achieved Elite status in Experience, adding a +2 modifier to its potential. It also has Good morale, adding an additional +1. But it is currently being affected by enemy ECM, which applies a -1 penalty to its potential. Leaving the 101th with a 2/4 potential, meaning it operates at 120% efficiency. Adding a 20% increase to its damage and evasion stats.

The above example from the rules page clarifies the system perfectly.

Note that "Max potential" =! "Potential". "Max Potential" is altered by projects and base max potential varies between factions. For the CRF, max potential is 3 at game start, so the most you can get out of morale and experience is 130%. The DD fleets start with Max Pot = 2, so we can go up to only 120% before the modernisation.
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: General forum game discussion
The above example from the rules page clarifies the system perfectly.

Suits me for looking it up in the Fleet Statistics topic... but we belaboured the point of having to fix the presentation of the rules before...

But considering the boost is added after the fact my calculation were at least always wrong by yielding lower results than were actually possible :D

also I noticed that I had not limited potential in my earlier formula as posted. Here are home I got it all neatly in a Exel-file which automatically reduces the figure to its limit...



Spoon, we might need your opinion on "How fair is Spoon?" in the CRF internal...



Also for a full faction balance discussion, we need also the tech that was not yet researched... Spoon's comment to the reception of CRF T4 might give you an indication but I bet other the other factions also have tech that wasn't researched and might have an application on a larger map and with more turns to play...
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 01:21:13 pm by 0rph3u5 »
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

==================

"I am Curiosity, and I've always wondered what would become of you, here at the end of the world." - The Guide/The Curious Other, Othercide

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."

 
Re: General forum game discussion
With the current "try to one-shot everything" meta shields play a much smaller role than they could, like for example if two damaged fleets continue fighting and retreat is no option for both. I guess on the normal map things might play out differently compared to now where everything is so close that sending in all fleets is not such a huge risk (but might still leave you wide open like in case of the CRF).

What I don't like is that additional tactical orders are limited to one nation early on and only come up later for others (not sure about SF and UGC). The same with strategic orders and the SF movement increase. I have no idea how to balance it but I feel all nations should be able to get an additional tactical order at the same tech level. If that is difficult at least make it a tactical or strategic order on a certain tech level and on a higher tech level the reverse.
As an Admiral I feel so limited when trying to cope with that goddamn valor and the possibilities that come with it. The same is partially true for the 3 movements option but at least we got subspace missiles in our alliance as a strategic order. Seeing our tech-lvl 5 tactical order I really wish I had something like it earlier (even if it was a bit weaker cause of being placed at a lower tech level).
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Offline Spoon

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Re: General forum game discussion
A lot of really interesting debate going on.  :nod:

Any thoughts/feelings on this?
I think it's an interesting idea that I'll give some more thought. It wouldn't work with the current way fleets and technologies are but it's given me some food for thought about the more streamlined fleets I'm playing with.

Quote
(BTW, Spoon, can an admiral give the repair / refit order while in combat?)
When in combat at a location that is a shipyard or has one/starbase? No.

Maybe there's some resource cost to activate the repair, but I'd expect that to have been advertised like phase torp cost was?
Yeah It should have been. I changed how project/usage cost is listed in the project thread slightly and because of this forgot to copy paste it into the game thread properly.
Field repair has a flat 2000 resource cost.
Repairing a CRF Carrier center for 20% normally would cost 500 money and 1000 resources.

Spoon, we might need your opinion on "How fair is Spoon?" in the CRF internal...
Being a proper nerd, I can assure you my skin is very fair.

As an Admiral I feel so limited when trying to cope with that goddamn valor and the possibilities that come with it.
Valor is definitely the tech I did not expect to have such a big impact as it does and it probably comes a bit too early at T3.

Phase torpedoes on the other hand, work about the way I expected them to get used.
Also I changed excellent morale to superb on the strategic map because it's shorter.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline Veers

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Re: General forum game discussion

Spoon, we might need your opinion on "How fair is Spoon?" in the CRF internal...
Being a proper nerd, I can assure you my skin is very fair.


Oh Gosh.. now I see blonde hair and blue eyes. I am so so sorry for this mental image.
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Offline Spoon

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Re: General forum game discussion
I do have blue eyes, so there's that  :p
I don't have the white dragon to go with it though.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline niffiwan

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Re: General forum game discussion
Maybe there's some resource cost to activate the repair, but I'd expect that to have been advertised like phase torp cost was?
Yeah It should have been. I changed how project/usage cost is listed in the project thread slightly and because of this forgot to copy paste it into the game thread properly.
Field repair has a flat 2000 resource cost.
Repairing a CRF Carrier center for 20% normally would cost 500 money and 1000 resources.

Ah yes, that changes the value proposition a fair bit (although still good IMHO).
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Offline Enioch

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Re: General forum game discussion
^ Truth.

In fact, given this info, I can see why our CRF colleagues cried UP. FR is NOT a counter to phase torpedos, but a situational heal. Still good IMO, for the in-combat heal and for not having to travel back home. Momentum is important.
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: General forum game discussion
As an Admiral I feel so limited when trying to cope with that goddamn valor and the possibilities that come with it.
Valor is definitely the tech I did not expect to have such a big impact as it does and it probably comes a bit too early at T3.

Maybe if Valor could swap its place in tech tree with "that other tech" from CRF T4, that could help - I mean after the confusion how it worked was cleared up, the situation with "that other tech" went in the "wish we had it earlier direction"

^ Truth.

In fact, given this info, I can see why our CRF colleagues cried UP. FR is NOT a counter to phase torpedos, but a situational heal. Still good IMO, for the in-combat heal and for not having to travel back home. Momentum is important.

The fact that it is 4000 for 20 percent to an entire fleet, while 2x SSTs which undo it are 2000, makes it an uneasy balance thing... but we will see how it really turns out...
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

==================

"I am Curiosity, and I've always wondered what would become of you, here at the end of the world." - The Guide/The Curious Other, Othercide

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: General forum game discussion
I'm not completely sure what went wrong with the 3rd SF morale, but it was listed as Superb on the strategic map since like turn 7, even though it should only be Good.
Also, I hope the Green-Blue switch around isn't going to be too confusing to our UGCR and SF combatants.
And the 2nd DD makes its combat debut at last~
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: General forum game discussion
I undestand why the Grind at Uunii II expanded to 6x6 but when combat was joined initially the Invasion Fleet started at A5 and the Drop Point was A1 ... Now that it has rejoined it is 5 moves away (A6-> A1)... Is there a logic behind this?

Because from where it sit - ignoring the DD blockade for academic purposes - the CRF cannot bring the Invasion Fleet to the planet within one turn, while it was possible when the Grid was only 5x5. This appears to be a previous unknown advantage towards the DD...

EDIT: Correction in text above, on I7 the Invasion fleet started of course on A5, as there was no A6

EDIT: Looking back it kinda puzzels me as well that the 3rd DD on I7 started in B2, and now the 2nd DD starts in A2... As constrast, the UGC Defenders at Captial started in the 1-row sry, wrong - damn gif
EDIT3: Point withdrawn, inconstistency was a misconception because I was looking at the -gif from I7 not the starting pic that came with the results of S6
« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 07:15:36 pm by 0rph3u5 »
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

==================

"I am Curiosity, and I've always wondered what would become of you, here at the end of the world." - The Guide/The Curious Other, Othercide

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: General forum game discussion
Quote
Is there a logic behind this?
I avoid having fleets entering combat directly in firing range from each other
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: General forum game discussion
Quote
Is there a logic behind this?
I avoid having fleets entering combat directly in firing range from each other

Then why not move the drop point somewhere else? Is there a rule it has to be A1?
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

==================

"I am Curiosity, and I've always wondered what would become of you, here at the end of the world." - The Guide/The Curious Other, Othercide

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: General forum game discussion
For the record, I was just thinking about adding faction dependent boni to Starbases to increase their importance in the defense of a planet... (e.g. DD Starbases count as being equipped with Fire Control with a Range of 3 instead of the usual 0, CRF Bases allowing Garrison Fleets togain XP, SF bases or UGC Starbases apply a minor effect similar to Mirage fields to any friendly in R1)
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

==================

"I am Curiosity, and I've always wondered what would become of you, here at the end of the world." - The Guide/The Curious Other, Othercide

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: General forum game discussion
Wasn't it said somewhere that Starbases would improve as technology improved?

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: General forum game discussion
Then why not move the drop point somewhere else? Is there a rule it has to be A1?
Someone asked me if drop points stayed at the same location at some point (I dont remember who/where that was) and I answered yes to that.
It makes sense to me that its at the same location. I'm sorry that it turned out poorly for the CRF, but it is what it is.

Wasn't it said somewhere that Starbases would improve as technology improved?
They benefit from things like mirage fields and neutron weapons so.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: General forum game discussion
Then why not move the drop point somewhere else? Is there a rule it has to be A1?
Someone asked me if drop points stayed at the same location at some point (I dont remember who/where that was) and I answered yes to that.
It makes sense to me that its at the same location.

I avoid having fleets entering combat directly in firing range from each other

So if the 3rd DD were not at B4, the Invasion Fleet could have started at A5?

And just out of curiosity, if the CRF had not attacked from direction of the Carnia Starlance, were would we have started then? Would it have been possible (position of the DD Garrison Fleet aside) to start the Invasion Fleet at E1?



I'm sorry that it turned out poorly for the CRF, but it is what it is.

This is not about sorry - well, I am pretty irritated how it turned out but that is beside the point - it is about finding the consistent basis for the rules...
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 04:27:47 am by 0rph3u5 »
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

==================

"I am Curiosity, and I've always wondered what would become of you, here at the end of the world." - The Guide/The Curious Other, Othercide

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."

 

Offline Veers

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Re: General forum game discussion
Would any of the rear line be an option as the invasion point?, or depending on map size there is a second, or even a third as it grows larger?

I dunno. Just thinking
Current Activities/Projects: Ideas and some storyline completed.

ArmA 2&3 Mission Designer and player.


WoD - I like Crystal. <3