Author Topic: General forum game discussion  (Read 44681 times)

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Offline Enioch

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Re: General forum game discussion
Hello all,

Can I jump on the bandwagon and express my concern about the changes in the tactical grid for Uuni?

The new situation greatly benefits the DD, partly because even if we do not engage, but just run away, it is impossible for the CRF to occupy the planet this turn. That said, the main problem is (I believe) the perceived inconsistency in spawning positions for the invading fleets. The CRF forces came into Uuni using the exact same approach as last time, but spawned in different locations. This makes a carefully planned attack (my compliments for the roundabout approach, BTW) a dud - for no reason that the CrF admirals could have anticipated, because it hadn't arisen yet.

I.e. we need spawning rules to be clearly laid out, and made available to all, so that players can plan out their moves with reasonable safety. What the rules will be is not so important - the important thing is that they are there and that spawning is a codified, consistent thing.

 
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: General forum game discussion
My compliments to you too. The DD have been a cunning and worthy foe. :)

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: General forum game discussion
(I've noted the complaints about the spawning positions)

This combat turn at Uuni II has a bunch of rule violations and it only kind of dawned on me after I was done doing all the calculations.
Veers didn't specify which of his flanks should move, because he didn't start the combat with a center fleet, he shouldn't have been able to move both flanks at once as if they were attached to a center. Both Lorric and 0rph3u5 lost their fleet centers and according to the rules as written wouldn't have been able to execute their fleet center with flanks attached orders either. But after I had already done everything I just sort of went "well, whatever." The whole concept with fleet flanks isn't really working out as I had imagined it anyway, its too unwieldy.

Also, I can't make a gif right now because photoshop has once again to randomly give me a program error when trying to 'save for web'. And fixing this usually requires nuking all my settings and stuff. I hope the album works?

Also also, some abyssmal rolls in the Starlance leading to Harcon battle. I also made a calculation mistake with the 3rd SF Center not dealing reduced due to being below 50%, but it would only make a few percentage of hull strength difference... Sorry about that UGC.

And for my usual dose of self loathing: This combat system allows for too many calculation errors on my end and the weapon damage isnt very transparant for the Admirals. Too many little factors that I have to account for and manually change on the maps, easy to forget, frustrating to correct. Ideally I don't want to spend more than 2 hours doing a turn, but for the intrigue phases with combat its usually a lot longer than that.
So yeah, I'll change it someday. (Once I find the motivation).

Also, I'm sorry Ministers. I realize that by killing the diplomacy, your roles haven't exactly been exciting.

Well, only 3 phases remaining before game end.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 
Re: General forum game discussion
It's funny how I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what to do during combat turn 7 because of Valor. This time I had my orders for 3 fleets ready in less than 10 minutes - again cause of Valor. A straight forward inevitable boom: Everything fired within the 2nd order. Combat would have been more interesting without Valor this time...

The whole concept with fleet flanks isn't really working out as I had imagined it anyway, its too unwieldy.
Generally I like the idea of detaching flanks but it seems only the DD really used it (though it did work out). On the other hand detaching them is usually a disadvantage as more orders are needed to do anything and the rules can be misunderstood easily. No idea how to improve this and making it simpler at the same time :doubt:

About complicated combat calculations: How about removing all the specific weapon types and instead just giving a damage and hit chance value (flat percentage that can be modified and is capped at 100%) for each range? These values are calculated once at the beginning for each type of Center or Flank according to the specific weapons installed on the ships.
Then dump target of opportunity or reduce it to check if a Flank doesn't need to shoot at the target to kill it in which case it fires on something else.
For randomness use either a damage range (like 80-100) that returns a random value, or if it should mimic rolling for weapon hits, use something like a normal distribution tabulated before the game starts. One roll giving a value of said distribution then replaces single shot rolls and the result only has to be scaled/streched to have the maximum at the given hit chance and maybe a capped value at the maximum (or not if critical hits are a possibility).
Here goes scripting and copy paste coding
Freespace RTS Mod
Checkpoint/Shipsaveload script

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: General forum game discussion
About complicated combat calculations: How about removing all the specific weapon types and instead just giving a damage and hit chance value (flat percentage that can be modified and is capped at 100%) for each range? These values are calculated once at the beginning for each type of Center or Flank according to the specific weapons installed on the ships.
Then dump target of opportunity or reduce it to check if a Flank doesn't need to shoot at the target to kill it in which case it fires on something else.
For randomness use either a damage range (like 80-100) that returns a random value, or if it should mimic rolling for weapon hits, use something like a normal distribution tabulated before the game starts. One roll giving a value of said distribution then replaces single shot rolls and the result only has to be scaled/streched to have the maximum at the given hit chance and maybe a capped value at the maximum (or not if critical hits are a possibility).
Yeah, I was thinking something along the same lines of simplifying weapons like that.
And instead of having a center fleet with attached flanks, I am thinking about having each Admiral control a main fleet and an escort fleet. Which can move independently from each other, with the escort fleet being faster but less powerful than the main fleet. So the escort fleets could be used more as raiding forces, while the main fleets are like the 'serious business end' of things.
Which should hopefully make things a bit easier to understand and simpler to execute on.

Also, instead of having different fleet types for each faction, it'll be one base type for main and escort, which the admiral then customizes with modules.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: General forum game discussion
And for my usual dose of self loathing: This combat system allows for too many calculation errors on my end and the weapon damage isnt very transparant for the Admirals. Too many little factors that I have to account for and manually change on the maps, easy to forget, frustrating to correct. Ideally I don't want to spend more than 2 hours doing a turn, but for the intrigue phases with combat its usually a lot longer than that.
So yeah, I'll change it someday. (Once I find the motivation).

If you want to look at a more userfriendly approach to the weapon stats of the each fleet, you can check out the .pdf I made for the CRF; it should be easy to find in the internal (the formating is bad but only because I converted it straight from the Exel-file) - I basically made each weapon a collum and each range a row, with a 5th collum for a total for each range

As for how to avoid calculation errors, we can discuss it after the game is done - open to the hood and all - but remember to also share how you do your randomizing - depending on what kind of RNG you use you might run into some issues with how it creates "random" numbers...
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

==================

"I am Curiosity, and I've always wondered what would become of you, here at the end of the world." - The Guide/The Curious Other, Othercide

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: General forum game discussion
Hi Spoon.

I never knew flanks couldn't move together without a center. Will that rule be enforced next turn, or can I use valor next turn? Also, can two flanks with no center fire together?
Keep moving the two flanks as a single unit, like last turn. It's too much of a hassle to go and move all of the individually.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: General forum game discussion
The Inhefulian Blitz has begun ...


One turn too late but considering the yield for the test part in this test game: worth it
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

==================

"I am Curiosity, and I've always wondered what would become of you, here at the end of the world." - The Guide/The Curious Other, Othercide

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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  • This place is empty promises all the way down..
Re: General forum game discussion
BTW: How does Siege Mode work? If the owning player cannot issue any other order after Siege Mode was triggered, when does a fleet in Siege Mode fire?
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

==================

"I am Curiosity, and I've always wondered what would become of you, here at the end of the world." - The Guide/The Curious Other, Othercide

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: General forum game discussion
BTW: How does Siege Mode work? If the owning player cannot issue any other order after Siege Mode was triggered, when does a fleet in Siege Mode fire?

Quote
Can only be issued as the 1st order of the combat. No move orders can be issued after going into Siege mode and Evasion drops to Zero
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: General forum game discussion
Okay ... back to the drawing board then...
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 11:18:33 am by 0rph3u5 »
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

==================

"I am Curiosity, and I've always wondered what would become of you, here at the end of the world." - The Guide/The Curious Other, Othercide

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."

 

Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: General forum game discussion
Spoon, now that I am a POW of the DD, shouldn't my access to the CRF Forum be limited? - Not that I am not willing "to face the music" for loosing my second fleet and utterly failing to take Inhefulian Prime, but you know, a fun idea...
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

==================

"I am Curiosity, and I've always wondered what would become of you, here at the end of the world." - The Guide/The Curious Other, Othercide

"As you sought to steal a kingdom for yourself, so must you do again, a thousand times over. For a theft, a true theft, must be practiced to be earned." - The terms of Nyrissa's curse, Pathfinder: Kingmaker

"...because they are not Dragons."

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: General forum game discussion
It's an amusing thought, but probably too fiddly for Axem. Plus it just seems needlessly counterproductive someone then having to catch up when they get back.

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: General forum game discussion
Well, I can set membergroups and stuff. But disconnecting you from the forum for the last week doesn't seem very productive  :p

So I noticed a lot of competitive spirit setting in, along with a fair amount of people becoming disinterested when not being on the winning side of things. I know this is sort of the nature of competitive/pvp games. But I'd rather see everyone having fun, and it's making me reconsider if this format is ideal for any future games. I'd rather be the 'dungeon master' of a fun experience rather than the referee in a match, so to speak.

That is not to say that I personally didn't had a lot of fun this game. Cause I did.
Either way there will be a break when the game comes to a close after next week, I can't tell how long of a period it will be for the next game.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: General forum game discussion
I've said from the beginning I'd prefer PvE to PvP. We could join to face the hierarchy again. PvP, the nature of the beast is there are going to be winners and losers. But I will play PvP if that is the direction you go in.

 

Offline Enioch

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Re: General forum game discussion
Well, it's a bit hypocritical to say that I enjoyed the PvP. :p

But it's fair to say that PvE is the option that will leave most of the players happy. What I fear is the quarterback syndrome kicking in.
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: General forum game discussion
What I fear is the quarterback syndrome kicking in.
I tried to step back from that in this test game. Take a more passive role. But the way things went I very much feel that was the wrong decision, and for the main game I will be striding forward not stepping back.

 

Offline Enioch

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Re: General forum game discussion
That certainly doesn't ease my fears.

I might acknowledge the objective superiority of another player's suggestion, but I certainly don't appreciate it being forced on me 'because it's clearly our best option'.
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: General forum game discussion
That certainly doesn't ease my fears.

I might acknowledge the objective superiority of another player's suggestion, but I certainly don't appreciate it being forced on me 'because it's clearly our best option'.
It isn't possible to force someone to do something though.

 

Offline Enioch

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Re: General forum game discussion
Strictly speaking, true; but there is such a thing as peer pressure in the context of the game. Just having someone pick out all your sub-optimal actions and point them out for everyone to see is grating.

Also, the point of a game is for every player to play; not for one player to find the best way to do things and expect others to conform to their plan, no matter how perfect that is. That would equate to just them playing.
'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'  -Salvor Hardin, "Foundation"

So don't take a hammer to your computer. ;-)