Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Unidan on September 11, 2001, 09:14:00 am
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Did you hear what happened to the World Trade Center??? Raa'Torh you got any more info?????
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Yep, I've already posted about it in two topics here (the first without noticing that there was a topic practically dedicated to it).
The WTC has been hit by two suicide planes, one per tower. The south tower then collapsed.
Another blast tried the Pentagon, but missed and hit a helicopter launch pad.
A Palestinian faction was first said to have assumed responsibility, but the leaders of that faction denied it.
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Damm...i am whatching CNN right now.Just horible (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
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this is hard to believe - my god there are some sadistic and sick people on the planet
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Less than 5 minutes ago the second tower collapsed as well. There's also been a carbombing outside the US state department.
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Somerset County, Western Pennsylvania has had some plane crash there as well. Supposedly.
Hmm, we must be getting a few minutes lag here. I haven't heard about the second tower collapsing.
But I did hear about the car bombing.
EDIT. Oooh, there it goes. The second tower is down, repeat, second tower is down. Even with BBC World lag (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Jabu (edited 09-11-2001).]
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There was an estimated 20,000 people in those buildings....
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Apparently it seems that part of the Pentagon has been hit by SOMETHING, if not that plane (that seemed to miss and hit a helipad).
At least one of the planes was hijacked, with possibly over 100 people in it. The US is tracking another hijacked ship in their airspace.
Everything is so damn vulnerable to suicidal morons.
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a total of 8 planes have supposedlyt been hijacked.
also..the FTSE and dow jones indeces have just crashed..if you didnt sell all those shares you had, yer screwed.
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I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired!!
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Yep, yep. It's like... chaos. Gotta wait to see what's next...
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A few more planes, like on the White House and a few other really important places, and the entire USA would quickly dwell into pure anarchy. This is like a B-class movie script.
A plane hit the Pentagon, the state department got a car bomb, and I think they even got something in Capitol Hill.
[This message has been edited by Jabu (edited 09-11-2001).]
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i have heard it and seen alot of sick actions on tv but this.this is to horible for words.indeed i heard about a 4th plane and the car bombs o my god...i mai not live in America but this hit my feelings badly.
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part of the pentagon building has now collapsed.
I have many close friends in the US, even though ive never met them IRL..some of them live in manhattan!
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I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired!!
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A Boeing 747 is the one that went down in Pensylvania.
Also, while Arafat makes nice and says "Bad, bad!" to the attacks, his people are celebrating in the streets over here, handing out candy to the children, etc. I hope the US see's pictures of this and realizes... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/mad.gif)
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Don't worry about that. I've got a feeling the Palestinian situation will get much worse, for the Palestinians.
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Yeah, I'm watching footage of that right now. Those people are definately sick...
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I'm getting more and more convinced it was one of Bin Laden's follower groups. I mean, it was so well organized and all.
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I need a few games of Action Quake 2. Need to kick some terrorist arse.
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Originally posted by Jabu:
A few more planes, like on the White House and a few other really important places, and the entire USA would quickly dwell into pure anarchy. This is like a B-class movie script.
To tell you the truth, I doubt it. You'd need to have a lot of things go wrong for anarchy to occur.
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"I only hope that in your stumbling around you do not wake the dragon."
Well, someone's stumbling around has awakened the dragon. Who ever is responsible has just mobilized the most deadly force on the planet, and they are coming for him/her. The palestinians may celebrate now but if they are linked to this the UN will no longer recognize them as a legitimate faction - they will be a terrorist organization and will be treated as such.
I am now 3 months 14 days from my 18-th birthday, my physical condition and mental condition put me in the first group drafted should the draft be called. My brother is 82nd Airborne and is probably already loading gear and ready to get in the air.
Our mainland has never been hit before, war is enevitable[/i]
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Originally posted by sandwich:
Also, while Arafat makes nice and says "Bad, bad!" to the attacks, his people are celebrating in the streets over here, handing out candy to the children, etc. I hope the US see's pictures of this and realizes... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/mad.gif)
I can't even fathom this. What is wrong with these people??? They use civilian airlines to attack civilian targets!!! How can any government, religion, or people condone this??? Who ever is behind this is a threat to the entire world. We're human beings not dumb animals... what they hell are they fighting for... why would they want to do this!?!?!
Joe...
... who's always wanted to start a new society on Mars.
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Nah, no anarchy, but one hell of a mess. I don't think it has already stopped, and who knows what will happen next...
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All civilian aircraft in on the North American contient are grounded - both US and Canada have grounded all civilian aircraft, my money says marshall law shall be declaired in a matter of hours
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Originally posted by joek:
I can't even fathom this. What is wrong with these people??? They use civilian airlines to attack civilian targets!!! How can any government, religion, or people condone this??? Who ever is behind this is a threat to the entire world. We're human beings not dumb animals... what they hell are they fighting for... why would they want to do this!?!?!
Joe...
... who's always wanted to start a new society on Mars.
Well this is good proof that humans are animals and stupid.If we wheren't animals we wouldn't do this kinda acts.
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unfortunantly parts of our species are still very ignorant and cannot work out things with a fight, they just condemed themselves to death
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its a mob mentality, people.
if you've ever been in a riot you'll understand (i havent) that people change, its like an infection..whether they're beating people up, celebrating, or demonstrating, it happens.
i cant say i condone this celebration...if i see anyone celebrating round here ill go for my petrol chainsaw.
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I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired!!
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Talks may take longer but resolve more then this or a war what ever is going on.
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At least my parent's flight from England wasn't until tomorrow.... although I have no clue when they'll be back now.
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like I said all civilian traffic is grounded and will be for the foreseeable future, they're stuck there for a while
[edit]there not here
[This message has been edited by Kazan (edited 09-11-2001).]
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Yes, they're in England. I - No-one - knows when transatlantic flights will resume.
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Originally posted by sandwich:
Also, while Arafat makes nice and says "Bad, bad!" to the attacks, his people are celebrating in the streets over here, handing out candy to the children, etc. I hope the US see's pictures of this and realizes... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/mad.gif)
Sorry to quote again... but they just said this same thing on MSNBC...
... they said they were also yelling "God is great"...
... in my opinion... they are the modern Nazis.
Joe.
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... and they (whoever planned and executed this) have to realize that this is not just an attack on the US. The World Trade towers affect the world's economy...
I've already heard that trade between the US and Europe is shut down. This is not just an attack against American people... now this affects the whole world.
Joe.
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You want to know what was just ****** up on the part of one of the local radio stations? They had the Imperial March from Star Wars playing behind the newscasts. Like, WTF?
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the New York army (this a-has a name but I can't remember) has been activated...
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I just heard what Blair (he IS still PM, isn't he?) had to say about it.
Those terrorists are going down hard. ALL terrorists are going down hard. But that'll breed more terrorists, and they'll be crushed, and that'll breed more terrorists and so on and so on...
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Originally posted by Shrike:
To tell you the truth, I doubt it. You'd need to have a lot of things go wrong for anarchy to occur.
Actually, our emergancy response systems are working quite well. It's not anarchy at all, but most institutions are currently paralyzed (especially financial institutions). The stock market should recover by the end of next month so nobody panic yet.
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Originally posted by sandwich:
A Boeing 747 is the one that went down in Pensylvania.
Also, while Arafat makes nice and says "Bad, bad!" to the attacks, his people are celebrating in the streets over here, handing out candy to the children, etc. I hope the US see's pictures of this and realizes... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/mad.gif)
TAke it easy, remember, most of the palastineans seen are just teenagers who don't really understand what has happened. Thier religious leaders tell them "America bad" and they beleive it. Thier political leadership is unfortunately fairly hamstrung by such zealots, and besides, we still don't know who is responsible for this yet.
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Originally posted by jonskowitz:
Actually, our emergancy response systems are working quite well. It's not anarchy at all, but most institutions are currently paralyzed (especially financial institutions). The stock market should recover by the end of next month so nobody panic yet.
Exactly my point. There's plans for when **** like this goes down.... preparing for any eventuality.
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Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80:
the New York army (this a-has a name but I can't remember) has been activated...
The New York National Guard has been alerted, but not the combat arms portion, mostly medical and support elements. I imagine that if they do activate the Infantry component it will be for crowd control, but I don't see that there is a need for that yet.
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The DC National Guard has been called out. We have been told to leave DC, I'm back home now. It's pandemonium here.
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"Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty"
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I can imagine it is. From what I have heard its pretty bad in the capital.
I just heard that the NY guard is now moving into the area to releive civillian crews.
This is just hearsey (heard it from my wife who heard it from a friend ... so on) but it seems Bin Lauden issued a statement last week that we should expect *something* to happen. This is currently unverified by myself.
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All hijacked aircraft have now been accounted for.
- Two hit the world trade center towers.
- One hit the Pentagon
- One crashed, possibly on its way to Camp David. I seem to remember that something was happening there today, does anyone know what it was?
What worries me is that whoever did this was frighteningly organized (all aircraft reached thier targets within an hour of each other) and the fact that they had FOUR pilots at thier disposal who were capable of flying such craft (passenger liners aren't the easiest craft to fly after all). There is no way that I'll beleive that the plane's pilots could be coerced into suicide crashing into these targets. Not only this but they were able to organize this without our detection at all.
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Anyone here from Isreal? What's going on over there (If you're not allowed to disclose information I'll understand)
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I think this is Bin Laden's doing....too organized and way too arrogant to be a Palestinian faction.
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Originally posted by Kazan:
"I only hope that in your stumbling around you do not wake the dragon."
Well, someone's stumbling around has awakened the dragon. Who ever is responsible has just mobilized the most deadly force on the planet, and they are coming for him/her. The palestinians may celebrate now but if they are linked to this the UN will no longer recognize them as a legitimate faction - they will be a terrorist organization and will be treated as such.
I am now 3 months 14 days from my 18-th birthday, my physical condition and mental condition put me in the first group drafted should the draft be called. My brother is 82nd Airborne and is probably already loading gear and ready to get in the air.
Our mainland has never been hit before, war is enevitable[/i]
Hey Kazan, If they start the draft I'll likely be there with you. After all, a former Army Sergeant with combat experience is probably pretty high on the 'recall' list as well young, strapping boys with a reason to fight.
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Let's pray it doesn't come to that
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"Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty"
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Go Ravens!
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Originally posted by Eternal One:
I think this is Bin Laden's doing....too organized and way too arrogant to be a Palestinian faction.
Well, so far the PLO and the DPLF have both denied responsability. Bin Laden has used aerial attacks in the past, but Afghanastan has denied he had anything to do with it, but that might be that they are afraid of retaliation.
This does have Bin Laden's look about it, but the number and discipline of the people involved is pretty frightened. Truth is we still don't know much about who did this, let's keep our heads people. Remember, one of the planes failed to reach its target, which means that any evidence on board about who did this is likely to have survived (bodies, equipment, even the black-boxes will be relatively easily recovered).
[This message has been edited by jonskowitz (edited 09-11-2001).]
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Anyone in the vicinity of Hoover Dam? What's going on over there?
Over here they've locked down both Hanford and Coulee Dam. I suspect (but haven't heard) that Fairchild AFB is probably getting their tankers ready to fly. I imagine that there's a bunch of fighters up there that will need to be fueled.
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I was now thinking about the SpiderMan movie. On the trailer he traps the helicopter on a web between the two World Trade Center towers... Will they re-shoot that scene?
(I mean no offense at all, it's just a thought that crossed my mind...)
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And in all this chaos, Arkansas school internet connections with Little Rock are down. The Teachers have been watching this stuff all day. The first of it happened while I was still on the bus so I didn't know anything until 2nd class. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
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I've been trying to think about what starts all this... bear with me...
Terrorists attack the US...
... because they hate Americans... (why?)
... because America's military involvement in the Middle East... (why?)
... because America wants to make sure the oil keeps flowing.
Is that it? All because of oil we shove our might around over there making these people hate us and then terrorist attack us? Is that it?
Or is it something else... I don't understand.
Joe.
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Please include them in your prayers.
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Excuse the bad language but, those terroists are going to F**KING die and BURN IN HELL, B*SD*RDS...
I want teroist blood, no.... Our governments should kick there *** , to high hell, all the F**kers responsable will die. I recon Seal and SAS teams are going to have some fun, kicking there asses.
i have a bad feling something elce more terrable is going to happen, i mean if these terroists wanted to show how powerfull they were why dident they attack the White House..
Prohaps these terroists destroyed the WTC to take our eyes of some thing elce bigger....
Conclusion:
theres a lot of questions asked and a lot of answers given but there is still a lot of answers to be proven and more questions to be asked...
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You've got a point, this could be a prelude to a larger attack, but I kinda doubt it. I'm pretty certain that the WTC, the Pentagon and Camp David were the actual targets (the attack on Camp David failed). I'm pretty sure whoever did this has largely shot thier wad, these attacks likely consumed a massive amount of resources (pilots, soldiers, and equipment) so I'm pretty sure that the attack is over, well, this attack anyway.
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It's hard to comprehend why those Palestinians are celebrating, you would think that anyone who saw such horrific loss of life would be saddened but in the palestinian's view they have struck a blow against "evil incarnate".
Religion can be truely terrible.
Before talking about going to war Kazan et al take a moment to comprehend how utterly useless taking life is. To talk so flatly about it shows that revenge often outweighs compassion, think first of those people who are suffering and have lost loved ones.
I live in Northern Ireland and have seen more pointless loss than I should ever wish. I've yet to see a more powerful show of bravery and compassion than the family of someone who has been killed calling for no retailiation, no more loss of life.
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British Prime Minister just said a bunch of stuff including...
we will "stand shoulder to shoulder with our American friends"... to "wipe out this evil from our world"...
( I may hve meesed up the quotes as they just said it).
Joe.
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Yeah, I fear this might be just, as was said before, the eye of the hurricane, a period of calm before the real storm begins. And I'm afraid that even with all security being put online right now there's not much that can be done to prevent it. Let's just hope that they don't have any bioweapons or stuff like that...
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Originally posted by Fozzy:
Excuse the bad language but, those terroists are going to F**KING die and BURN IN HELL, B*SD*RDS...
I want teroist blood, no.... Our governments should kick there *** , to high hell, all the F**kers responsable will die. I recon Seal and SAS teams are going to have some fun, kicking there asses.
i have a bad feling something elce more terrable is going to happen, i mean if these terroists wanted to show how powerfull they were why dident they attack the White House..
Prohaps these terroists destroyed the WTC to take our eyes of some thing elce bigger....
Conclusion:
theres a lot of questions asked and a lot of answers given but there is still a lot of answers to be proven and more questions to be asked...
Dude as you know the WTC is the center of trade and ecnomical stuff so that is already a big thing.AND now there GONE and that already is horible.Even here in holland they have closed the biggest stock exchange in holland and also in the UK.
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I just had a terrible thought, you don't supposed that the training materials for the suicide bombers was provided by the United States?
Microsoft flight simulator to be specific. You can get some really REALLY realistic plug-ins for that INCLUDING airliners...
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Originally posted by darkage:
Dude as you know the WTC is the center of trade and ecnomical stuff so that is already a big thing.AND now there GONE and that already is horible.Even here in holland they have closed the biggest stock exchange in holland and also in the UK.
Yeah... like I said... attacking the WTC is not just an attack against U.S. citizens ... but it's an attack against the world economy... but then that might be what they were aiming for also... to crush capitalism..
... if you really want to vigourusly retaliate... then they should have attacked the UN building... I know it's wrong for me to say this... but you almost have to wish that they did take out the UN building so that the entire world would unite against these terrorist actions...
Armies fighting armies is OK compared to zealots wiping out mass crowds of peaceful citizens.
Joe.
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Originally posted by jonskowitz:
I just had a terrible thought, you don't supposed that the training materials for the suicide bombers was provided by the United States?
Microsoft flight simulator to be specific. You can get some really REALLY realistic plug-ins for that INCLUDING airliners...
I doubt it, they were definately trained, maybe by the U.S., but definately not for the purpose of killing innocents.
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Maybe not, but you have to wonder if making such (relatively) effective training aids available to just anyone such a good idea.
[This message has been edited by jonskowitz (edited 09-11-2001).]
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Nah. Flight Simulator isn't accurate enough to train liner pilots.
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The Vigi-Pirate reinforced plan has been applyied in France...
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I don't know, it's not like they planned to try and land the things, getting it off the ground and flying to thier target would be training enough (takeing off and cruising is relatively easy).
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Originally posted by Skippy:
The Vigi-Pirate reinforced plan has been applyied in France...
What's that?
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Fozzy picks up his Level-Head hat and puts it on!
lets look at the facts..
1.. The WTC was bombed by a millitant organised gang, orogins uknown.
2.. aim of mission:
a.. to criple the worlds econemy
b.. to show the might of this organisation
3.. suspects:
a.. middle eastern arab nation terroist group, there country wil probably have economic sanctions imposed upon it. therefore the decline in market prices will not effect them as much.
b.. Far fetched idea. mad anti capitalistic ammericans (anakists) who are propared to kill them selfs like Islamic millitants.
that brings me to the concluysion that it is an Islamic nation or terroist group opperating "on behalf of god"
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Originally posted by jonskowitz:
What's that?
It's an anti-terrorist plan
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Ahh crap and I live near washington DC!! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/eek.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
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You know what... Europe figured out a long time ago that Theocracies don't work... It's a shame that a few other nations still haven't figured that out.
We don't know who did it yet, but the simple fact that it was an obvious suicide attack more or less rules out secular factions (such as the Montanna militia or similar groups). Even the IRA didn't use suicide attacks (or if they did it wasn't this blatant, I don't think, maybe someone from UK can verify this?)
This more or less leaves a religous group that is responsible. With the current pressure in the mideast (I'm sure sandwich can give us a first hand account of it) they are the first obvious suspects. If it was Palistinians they must have had some SERIOUS financial and training support (quite possibley Bin Laden). However, both major Palestinian terror organizations have already denied resposibility and Afghanastan has also denied that Bin Laden was responsible...
This leaves a truely ugly possibility, another nation may have done this. Iraq? Possibly, we aren't exactly on friendly terms with them right now AND they have the resources for recruiting and training for such an operation. Not to mention that Sadam has been known to invoke religious doctrine to gain/ increase support for his operations (ironically enough, Sadam is not a very religious man...) But they lack motive, why would Sadam want to blow up the WTC, unless he has something else planned... We'll have ot wait and see. Might it be a branch faction from Turkey? How about Macedonia? Anyone have any additional data?
[This message has been edited by jonskowitz (edited 09-11-2001).]
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Originally posted by jonskowitz:
Afghanastan has also denied that Bin Laden was responsible...
Afghanistan has done this for the past three years even though we know they're lying.
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This is true, and there is a RUMOR that he did release a statement prior to the attack...
Can ANYONE verify that this statement was made?!?
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Isn't this amusing...
We send in troops and try to intervene in the middle east and we are denounced as imperialistic bastards...
We try to stay out of it and they say we're not doing enough...
Just heard a report that an Egyptian religous faction may be involved, If this is true then it is possible that this attack was an international effort by SEVERAL middle eastern countries...
I don't think they WANT to see just how much we sill get 'involved' in mid-east events if this is the case...
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what are the last news?
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last i heard we're at DefCon 2
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blbablba... Pentagon Military section was destroyed, New York World Trade Center destroyed.
You know what the bible says about this....
I think the world will end soon. Be ready.
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The fear always controls our attitude, let us fear no more!
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Originally posted by Fozzy:
i mean if these terroists wanted to show how powerfull they were why dident they attack the White House..
they can't...
the White House has had sophisticated Air Defense (read -> SAM sites) since that prop-plane hit the grounds...
if any unauthorised IFF enters their field of fire, they do something...
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Originally posted by RKIF-DragonClaw:
You know what the bible says about this....
**** you with your bible bull****
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I'm pretty sure he means 'eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth'
Anyhow.... may we all live in interesting times, eh?
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there are worse things than terrorists around.
did you know the caldera volcano under yellowstone park is moving UP by about 5ft/year?
oh..and we're due for an asteroid impact in the next 10,000 years i think.
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I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired!!
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Has anyone claimed responsibility yet?
You just don't do crap like this without a reason...
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Sort of puts things in perspective.....it's basically the sum of all fears for most, if not all, of the people in the free world.
But no number of bombs of bullets can quash the human spirit....cities may fall, lives may be lost, but freedom will always prevail.
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High officials for the Al Quaida group headed by fugitive Saudi terrorist Osama bin Ladenhave now denied responsibility for the attack...
WHO THE HELL DID THIS!!!
YOU JUST DON'T DO THIS CRAP UNLESS YOU
A) want the attention (by now SOMEONE would have claimed responsability)
B) is part of a larger operation (god, I hope not...)
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Originally posted by Kazan:
last i heard we're at DefCon 2
Almost a state of war i hope they don't go to DefCon 1
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i know how much everyone wants to know who did it and such (I do too), but have ever contemplated this?
The group that did this act of barbarism mich not make itself known... an invisible enemy is much more fearsome than an enemy you know, because what you know can be traced and what can be traced can be killed
You all know the ancient beliefs concerning names...
...To know ones name is to have power over that person...
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I just got home. EVERY channel on TV is talking about this. NONE of the channels are talking about the plane headed for Camp David. NBC and ABC have the latest news. It's horrific, hundreds of people are being taken to hospitals, there are many buildings burning and collapsing, many schools here in Connecticut are being shut down, there are many more targets that people suspect may be hit such as Disneyworld the Space Needle and the White House. Casulties estimated in the thousands. I saw the 767 hit the WTC Live! They were just talking about the first plane hitting, and then the second on hit. At 3rd period I had Word Processing, the whole period we just checked all the news sites. Then we got the news... they collapsed. I also saw Bush's short press conference. I just heard Britain has just stopped all flights. Government urges all US Nuclear power plants to go on high alert. And a nurse was at St. Vincents hospital e-mailing her husband who works at the WTC when the planes hit. They e-mailed back and forth telling each other they were fine. He stopped e-mailing, she then looked out the window, it collapsed... Heart breaking (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
I have but one thing to say to those ****ING
TERRORISTS!!!: You will pay for your crimes with your lives! The US will hunt you down and kick your ASSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I would have liked to have seen Bush's conference
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Even here they've had an extra 5-minute news broadcast between every program on every channel.
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We have it on all chanels,exept for cartoon and music broadcasts.
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That many lives wasted... Will one be able to trace down the entire life of any of all those people who died today? They all had families, and years of memories... They were young, before, they were... They died for something they don't even know, and that for my part I can't understand. I don't know who decided that, and I don't care. NOTHING can excuse that. I'm just... sad ...
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288 passengers died in total,28 service people on the plane and 8 pilots (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
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Sorry to have been away dudes. We don't have a TV at home, so I went over to a neighbors house to watch.
Bunch of stuff I want to comment on:
Originally posted by Eternal One:
I think this is Bin Laden's doing....too organized and way too arrogant to be a Palestinian faction.
That's pretty much the consensus here, too. He's the only one with the ability to organize things this well.
Originally posted by jonskowitz:
Hey Kazan, If they start the draft I'll likely be there with you. After all, a former Army Sergeant with combat experience is probably pretty high on the 'recall' list as well young, strapping boys with a reason to fight.
...And I'm a former IDF Staff Sgt. in Combat Engineering. If there's an Israeli/some-nation war, I'm in the very front lines. :-/
Originally posted by joek:
I've been trying to think about what starts all this... bear with me...
Terrorists attack the US...
... because they hate Americans... (why?)
... because America's military involvement in the Middle East... (why?)
... because America wants to make sure the oil keeps flowing.
Is that it? All because of oil we shove our might around over there making these people hate us and then terrorist attack us? Is that it?
Or is it something else... I don't understand.
Joe.
Lemme put some things straight, and consider yourself forewarned, this gets kinda spiritual (Kazan, you are perfectly free to think whatever you want, but don't dare to put down anyone for their religious beliefs!) :
Islamic nations are called such because they have a predominant religon: Islam. Islam teaches that it is OK to lie in order to further Allah's purposes (from the Koran). Graffiti in Bethlehem states: "First the Saturday people, then the Sunday people!" Saturday being the Jewish holy day, the Sabbath, and Sunday being the Christian equivalent. Make your own conclusions.
Now, I am Jewish. I am also Christian. I hate Islam, but I do not hate Muslims. How can this be? Islam is the spirit behind the hatred of the majority of the Arab nations towards the Jews and Christians. I believe the driving "force" behind Islam to be the devil. He has decieved millions of people with his lies, and now you all can plainly see the results. Muslims are decieved people; had you or I been born to a muslim family, we would undoubtably have followed the path of Islam. I thank God that I wasn't.
Originally posted by PhReAk:
Afghanistan has done this for the past three years even though we know they're lying.
As I said above, Islam teaches that to lie is not only perfectly acceptable, but even to be desired, if it furthers Allah's cause.
I hope now that the US and the world will wake up and see, among many other things, the position Israel has been forced into. Surrounded on all sides, under attack from within and without. If the world had it's way, our hands would be tied. We would absorb the bombings and the shootings, and sit down and talk to murderers and killers.
Can anyone right now imagine in his wildest dreams the US sending a message to the perpretrators (sp?) of these attacks
on the US: "Come, sit down and let us negotiate our problems."?!?
For those of you who don't know, I live in a southern neighborhood of Jerusalem called Gilo. Heard of it, have you? Anyway, my father came up with an "interesting" bumpersticker for distribution in the US: "I'd rather live in Gilo!"
I do feel a bit hesitant about posting that bumpersticker idea, as it can be seen as quite insensitve, but I think that I can "get away" with it, considering where I live. :-/
For my last statement, I shall say this:
"America, stand assured that we in Israel truly understand what you are going through."
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Building 5 and 7 around the WTC (whats left of it) are on the verge of collapsing.
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Originally posted by darkage:
Almost a state of war i hope they don't go to DefCon 1
My father just said that it is supposed to be ThreatCon and they are using letters.
Right now we are at ThreatCon D which is equal to DefCon 4. He also said that the larger the number/letter the worse it is.
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I just hope that they don't declare martial law, but they just might. Someone on CNN refered to today as "A Day that Will Live in Infamy". I'm almost as afraid at what the US will do to its citizens in the name of "national security" as I am of the terrorists. Remember Deus Ex? The stuff that went on after Silhouette bombed Liberty Island? Something akin to UNATCO and Echelon could very well arise from an event like this.
Classes at college were canceled for the day, and may be canceled tomorrow. I overheard the guy that lives in the dorm room next to me saying to a girl "They could nuke us tomorrow, so maybe we sould live life to the fullest right now." I almost went up to the kid and slugged him.
There were Congressmen in the news who were trying to use the disaster to push missile defense and a bigger military budget. That just makes me sick. After everything that happened, they don't care about the people in the towers, or the planes, or even the country. All they care about is their damn agendas. How dare they call themselves Americans.
I know that I'm posting this on multiple forums, but I want to see the reaction from all of the communities.
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Originally posted by ^Graff:
Someone on CNN refered to today as "A Day that Will Live in Infamy".
Last time someone used this sentence, it was about Pearl harbour... This won't end up to the same extremities I hope. I can understand this event creates much paranoia, but let's control it...
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Originally posted by ^Graff:
Remember Deus Ex? The stuff that went on after Silhouette bombed Liberty Island? Something akin to UNATCO and Echelon could very well arise from an event like this.
Off Topic, but did you actually PAY attention to the plot?
Do you know that Silhouette didn't bomb the statue... We never know exactly who did...
the blame is pointed at MJ-12, the government, the NSF & Shilouette...
Echelon also exists... just shout 'Quiche' or 'Steak Knife' down the phone line & wait for the FBI to come & get you... just don't expect Helios to lock any doors anytime soon...
a UNATCO-style organisation 'could' happen though...
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[This message has been edited by Griffon UK (edited 09-11-2001).]
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Brrrr... I live right near DC, there was actually probably less worrying about it around here than everywhere else, for a few hours everyone thought there'd be a hard rain or something comin' down, we were pretty relieved when it turned out they'd just gotten part of the Pentagon- there was stuff goin' around like that there were multiple planes headed for the Pentagon, Capitol building destroyed... and naturally Bush was on vacation in Florida (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif). I wonder how many years this thing had to be planned, ho many people put their lives into this one event... makes ya wonder what we're doing that makes everyone hate the US so much... Israel can't be it, though I can understand our support of them pissing people off- it is a genocide over there on both sides. But that wouldn't drive most people to this... and this was just an amazing attack, I doubt we won't get through w/o a war, martial law, or something of the sort. I think I'll move to Switzerland now...
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One last thing, from the Bible:
Isaiah 30:25 "...In the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall."
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...and now we truely understand what you have been going through sandwich (sorry for not seeing it sooner).
I have just verified that Bin Laden DID issue a statement three weeks ago in a recruitment video to expect an unprecedented attack against american interests.
Tomorrow was supposed to be the sentencing date for bin Laden's leiutennet at a federal courthouse near the WTC.
Today was an anneversary of something in Camp David (still don't know what though, think it has something to do with the middle east I think, can someone verify?)
It looks like American response is going to be massive and unilateral. Not pinpoint targeting, it looks like this nation is mobilising for WAR. All major navy assets (carriers) are now at sea, all Army assets are on alert and likely preparing for mobilization, The Airforce has already scrambled... I haven't seen america thiss hot since the Gulf War. Once we decide what direction to point all this hardware it'll be really REALLY ugly for whoever is on the wrong end of it.
Once again, I apologize to Isreal for not appreciating your situation sooner...
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And don't tell me it's Islam doing this... Islam is only marginally more war-oriented than most other major religions, and much more acceptant in many ways... It's the cultur of Arab nations. They're essentially in the Middle Ages over there, and you can't blame the Qa'ran any more than you can say the Bible is the source of the Inquisition, Crusades, serf system, and Hitler's Germany (to give a more modern but still relevant example). In fact, we don't even know the hijackers were Arabs. Could have been China, or the Michigan Militia for all we know. Just because the Palestinians aren't sorry to see their old friend America in pain doesn't mean that they would (or could) ever do such a thing themselves. And at any rate, whatever nuts did this, there's no guaranteein that we'll catch them. Just because they're sadists or psychotic doesn't reduce from the genius it required to pull this off... I doubt the leaders will have forgotten to cover their asses.
And there's no saying it's over yet, anyway...
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Originally posted by sandwich:
One last thing, from the Bible:
Isaiah 30:25 "...In the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall."
That's really disturbing...
Maybe more so that it might be right...
Is anyone here from russia? What's going on over there?
How many nukes are still missing? Hard to find news about anything except the WTC bombing... makes it hard to try to track other possible motives of the attack.
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Woah... You're from Israel? Sorry 'bout my er... statement on what's going onm over there, I just look at what I see on the news, etc.
And I wouldn't get all excited, jonskowitz. Bush is beholden to his military-industrial buddies, so there is about a 99% likelihood of war, but the countries he'd choose to pick on are so weak and impoverished that we'd probably have more of a police action. Or another Vietnam, in which case we're all screwed.
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Originally posted by sandwich:
One last thing, from the Bible:
Isaiah 30:25 "...In the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall."
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif)
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There are explosions in Kabul Afganistan.i think it's the airport. they are shooting whit Triple A and rockets!!. Can anybody confirm this? this is not OT.they say it are cruise missile's and other type of misile's they say now that a fuel dump has been destroyed
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[This message has been edited by darkage (edited 09-11-2001).]
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Yes, it is true - I'm watching live footage from CNN right now... Seems like a cruise missile just hit something around there...
[This message has been edited by Styxx (edited 09-11-2001).]
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There can't and won't be a full-strength american millitary operation. There simply isn't a nation to target. For all it's super-power stance, the US can't simply run over a nation for a few terrorist groups inside it.
What I do think will happen is two-fold:
1) The US will be forced to take pinpoint actions against the perpretrators of the attacks (most likely Bin Laden's group, thought you're right, Stryke - we still can't be 100% sure yet...)
2) The world will come down on Israel's policy of targeted terrorist assinations much less than before.
EDIT: About the Afganistan attacks, here the assumption is that it's not an "official" american response, but more likely someone taking advantage of the situation. Could easily be wrong, though. We'll just have to wait and see.
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[This message has been edited by sandwich (edited 09-11-2001).]
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That's affirmative on Kabul. (better start talking warspeke now and stayt ahead...)
But... wait... a... minute! I wouldn't pass a draft test anyway! Woohoo! Here's to 20/500 vision!
Sorry, just realized that and I had to celebrate.
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Who the hell is shooting?!?
Is it a US attack!?! I know we had submarines in the area, but we still hadn't verified who launched the attack...
What the hell is going on?
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Wups! Planned attack on Afganistan- there goes peace!
Isn't it fun to watch the world go to hell as we speak? The wonders of telecommunication!
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And talk about it realtime!
The attack in Afghanastan appears to have been launched by a REBEL Afghanastan faction, but that has not been verifiede yet.
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Nostradamus for those who believe:
http://www.colorize.net/nyc/ ("http://www.colorize.net/nyc/")
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Noone knows who fired, but it's most likely to have been a Tomahawk or similar missile launched by an american sub in the area. If that's confirmed, all hell might break loose - specially if more innocent people were killed by this attack and the people responsible were not damaged.
The CNN people are saying that the missile targeted an ammo dump - there are several secondary blasts...
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There seems to have been more than one missile, not sure yet...
We still don't know sho fired those missiles, still waiting for a release from the stte dept.
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Not news then. They have most of northern Afganistan, one of their leaders was blown up today by Osama... something was gonna happen in that direction today.
The news people must be having the best day of their lives.
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Originally posted by Shrike:
may we all live in interesting times, eh?
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could be russkie attack for all we know.. they're alot closer.
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If hardliners from Russia wanted to start a world war then that would be a great way to do it. I kinda doubt it though...
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Originally posted by Pez:
Nostradamus for those who believe:
http://www.colorize.net/nyc/ ("http://www.colorize.net/nyc/")
Man, that guy's gonna be disappointed... there's no reason for a nuclear war/whatever now, and if there is one, I doubt even God would survive the hell we'd make for ourselves.
[50s-mom voice]Now, little Jimmy, get in your bunker...[/50s mom voice]
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We don't know if Osama Bin-ladan did the terror attac at the U.S. but this is a pretty funny quote from http://www.afghan-web.com/ ("http://www.afghan-web.com/")
"The Friendliest Country in the World, Possibly the Universe."
Pez
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"If you're male, ultra-right-wing hardcore religious, and hate everything not Afghanistan"
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Loading the News page...
[imaginary headlines]
"US not attacked by Afghanistan"
"Rebels, Taliban make friends"
"What jihad?"
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Military officials have denied the attack on Afghanastan were of US origins...
Fuel tankers from Fairchild have just left, likely more will follow...
Fairchild AFB is CLOSED. All but one entrance have been closed off with concrete barriers and machinegun-armed armored cars are guarding the gates...
Pretty unreal, like a scene from WWII in color & jets...
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It's like a ****** movie, I can't believe it. I was there not 2 days ago, Im sorry for any Arab's on the BB but those *** rammers have got to pay
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Gotta put a word in, rather OT tho: This topic will surpass TaS on the VBB shortly if you keep this up (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Pez:
"The Friendliest Country in the World, Possibly the Universe."
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fuel dump confirmed it is destroyed by cruize missile.
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Originally posted by Night Hammer:
It's like a ****** movie, I can't believe it. I was there not 2 days ago, Im sorry for any Arab's on the BB but those *** rammers have got to pay
Who's gonna pay for it?
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Just got confirmed by the seceretary of defense that the current attack in Afghanastan was NOT from the US.
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Originally posted by Pez:
Who's gonna pay for it?
Some butfuking Palestani
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Originally posted by Night Hammer:
Some butfuking Palestani
Sandwich is from israel i don't think he likes it what you just said.
Indeed it's not from the US the attacks at Kabul.
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HOLD IT! Before this becomes a flame war...
Whoever we determine did it will pay for it, Although there is evidence that bin Laden was responsible, it's not conclusive. We'll just have to wait and see what the investigation determines.
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It would really suck if some American was responsible for this.
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Unfortunately, we can't rule out the possibility...
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This will NOT become some flame war. If it turns in that direction, I will insist that it be closed.
That said, in every group in the world, whether they are a relogious group, or a ethnic group, or whatever, there are "good" and "bad" people. Innocents and guilty, if you will. The Palestinians are definetly not behind this. Yes, they celebrated in the streets, but they didn't have the ability to plan and carry out such an operation. Of the known terrorist groups, only Bin Laden's has the ability to have carried this thing out.
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*** far i have heard there where US subs closest to Afganistan but lets not rule anything out it would not be a smart move to attack so soon,and whit out even knowing who did it.so i am real sure they didn't do it.
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Don't forget, Bin Laden is likely still sore that he failed to bring down the WTC on his first attempt.
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Hmm this is a pretty big and active topic (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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But we blame everything on Muslim terrorists. Remember Oklahoma City? How everyone was ready to fry an Arab until McVeigh popped up?
True, Bin Laden is the most likely candidate, but it could be anyone- America is far from universally loved, in fact is much the opposite for the most part. Maybe this is our (the Americans) collective fault for allowing the conditions where not only are people motivated to do such things, but others rejoice when they are done. For my part I agree it's the arabs giving us a last political hand gesture before their nations are obliterated by poverty, disease, and our attempts at international meddling, but I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Don't we do the same for hundreds of thousands of rape, murder, and other felony suspects all the time? The retribution many of you are speaking of isn't justice, it's a lynching!
[This message has been edited by Stryke 9 (edited 09-11-2001).]
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take over the middle east and make them US citizens that will really piss them off
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Isn't the general consensus that they did this BECAUSE they were pissed off? Rethink that statement, dude.
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Originally posted by CODEDOG ND:
take over the middle east and make them US citizens that will really piss them off
Dude you need to wakeup from your dream think realistic,if they would do that...well go figur.
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America isn't very popular, to the point where people can be convinced that eradicating it is a holy crusade. As I said before, religion can be truely terrible.
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Allowed such conditions?!?
I hate to burst your bubble, but if people aren't willing to take responsibility for thier own environment then why the hell is it automatically our fault that they live the way they do? We can NOT afford to give a handout to everyone. It's no seceret that economic leveling does not work.
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i just heard that saw thay destroyers and frigate's are leaving there docks from Virginia heading towards the atlantic.
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There have been Navy ships heading out along the whole East coast, but they were for protection of the airspace. However:
The aircraft carrier Enterprise recently finished her tour of duty in the Persian Gulf and was heading back to port in the US. However, she has recieved orders to remain in the Indain Ocean...
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Why is America "so disliked?" it's due to foreign policy designed by beaurocracy and conflicting personalities.
America's relations are a schitzo with the Middle East.
Also you have the Western mindset which is often ignored, and the fact that though the leaders of the moderate Arab nations have the similar mindset due to American educations, the main in general populace does not. (this is due to belief systems for thousands of years which though a Westerner can comprehend the thought process, honestly cannot truly replicate; now I'm dreadfully over generalizing on this though)
Overall, the esteemed leadership has no idea on how to handle diplomacy over the lingual and cultural barriers which do not appear to exist.
Now onto the recent events, I've heard a few underinformed folks state that the US military and economy will be in shambles or having to recover due to this.
Our economy and military are decentralized, the pentagon and WTC were/are symbols of these facets but are not critical. (now many people have died, but it is barely a bruise on the blunt industro-militaristic base)
The problem is that our economy is based on consumer confidence, and this will shake it for a few weeks, causing some shakes with the market.
Overall it's a nuisance, innocents died, the economy has a bump due to money for remodeling and cleaning the wastes as well as building more security.
The country housing the terrorists is as good as dead. Now the US may not be "the supreme force" (it has many strengths over other armed forces in the world) but it's technology and the fact that the European Union and Israel are almost assuridley allies means that whatever country is responsible or connected is _dead_.
What this shows is that the standard eastern terrorist (if it is from them, it may was well be Greenpeace or six drunk dudes holding airplanes for all we know from the news reports I've seen) did not have enough foresight to notice that in the long run this will prevent further acts of jihad, as well as this will end their careers permenantly.
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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
[This message has been edited by Ace (edited 09-11-2001).]
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I think 90% of the reason that we're so disliked is mostly because as a nation we are so wealthy.
The remaining 10% is idealological (as sandwich put it, "saturday people first, Then the Sunday peole".
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i didnt mean litterally make them into US citizens...it was just my random thought process that came out.
and anyways its confirmed the Aghanistans are the ones firing the rockets trying to destroy Taliban bases of operation for retaliation from the attacks on the US and the assination of their leader.
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Why interfere at all? It's pure jingoism to think that these people need us in any way- they can take care of themselves, just like any human beings over the age of 7 months. If we didn't get in everyone's face, there cewrtainly would be a few isolated complaints about how we were wealthy enough to do something, but there is literally nothing that is more universally resented than the nosy neighbor. This does not include sending food to famine-starved countries, sendin supplies to our allies, etc., but there has been simply no excuse for (to name the most famous modern examples) Vietnam, the Gulf War, or our intervention in Bosnia. If people are sometimes assholes to each other, that's politics. It's been happening for thousands of years, and trying to keep everything in a perpetual stasis only means that those who make the attempt will get ****** thoroughly in the end, and serves them right. If Osama/whoever hadn't done it, China would. If China hadn't done it, revolutionaries from the inside would. If they didn't do it, the EU would have gotten sick of us, fired off a few nukes, and we would be a smoking hole in the ocean floor before we could retaliate.
sic semper tyrranis And good riddance, is all anyone could say.
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CAUTION: MAY PIMP IF PROVOKED
Ragnarok Station:
www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/ragnarokmain.html ("http://www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/lbmain.html")
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Originally posted by Ace:
means that whatever country is responsible or connected is _dead_.
The perfect solution, beat them at their own game and give them a better reason to try the same thing again.
You ask why America is so hated? It's because not only do the american government have the necessary technology to wage war effectively but they are very willing to use it to protect their own interests. People are afraid of america and what humans fear they are automatically programmed to destroy.
Palestine sees america as allies to the people who took the land they believe God gave them, whether or not this is true it is one of the most powerful forces on the planet. You can shoot and bomb and kill faith but this just creates a stronger resolve to fight.
The people who have done this may be misguided or even evil in the eyes of westerners but they believe that God himself has charged them with the task of destroying evil, america and it's allies in their eyes. It is a good example of why you never argue with a person who knows they're right.
Killing their countrymen will only strengthen their resolve and American lives will be lost too, it's a vicious circle and I'm tired of seeing people dying (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
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Unfortunately, killing each other is what humans do best.
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Originally posted by darkage:
i just heard that saw thay destroyers and frigate's are leaving there docks from Virginia heading towards the atlantic.
I'm about 2 hours out of Norfolk...this is 100% the fleet is mobilizing to support NY and Washington. OUr 163rd (16- sorry too much info but it's 16 something) Air National Guard has recieved orders to move north in support of DC. Last I've heard ALL military bases went to Code Delta...MAXIUM alert outside of "Get on the plane to head for combat".
Since I left the Army in 99 I haven't regretted it...until now...I feel so god damn helpless!
What's worse is we do NOT know for certain if this is it,...or just the first wave. I'm concerned being Norfolk is Atlantic Fleet Command,..and you all by now know about my ex heading that direction...I can't get in touch with her if anything should happen.
TOO ANYONE IN, NEAR, OR WITH FAMILY AND OR FRIENDS IN NEW YORK OR WASHINGTON MY PRAYS GO OUT TO YOU ALL
They're talking about today's date the 9th month and 11th day....911 (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) This is certainly a day burned into the minds of us all.
Hell be with those responcible,..cause heaven can't help you once we find you.
And Kazan...IF it comes to a draft....I'm certain you won't be the only one. God knows I'd give anything to get back in and even just pull my old support on nightvision repair and such...just to know i'm doing SOMETHING.
I know one thing...tomarrow I'll be out giving blood to assist those in need,..I suggest any who can please do the same...with estimates over 20 thousand ,..there's going to be a great need for all blood types.
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Warlock
(http://www.gotp.f2s.com/DA.JPG)
DeathAngel Squadron ("http://deathangelsquadron.net")
CO
Do or Do Not,..There Is No Spoon
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We may rise and fall, but in the end
We meet our fate together
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Originally posted by Warlock:
Since I left the Army in 99 I haven't regretted it...until now...I feel so god damn helpless!
That's more or less how I feel. If I go back in my old MOS more or less guarentees me a spot on the front line (not much for a tank crewman to do in the rear).
I know one thing...tomarrow I'll be out giving blood to assist those in need,..I suggest any who can please do the same...with estimates over 20 thousand ,..there's going to be a great need for all blood types.
If I could I would do the same. But I was exposed to TB and worse in Africa so no one wants mine.
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a short timeline of evnts http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1537000/1537785.stm ("http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1537000/1537785.stm")
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(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/inferno/headz.gif)
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[email protected] Staff member of
SOC Inferno,
can you defeat
the shivans?
Soc Inferno
Project Rebellion ("http://www.avengershome.co.uk/rebellionhtml/")
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iqc 102628858
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the presidents stance is agressive..
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Who woulda guessed it would be?
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"Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty"
Fastest Man Alive
Go Ravens!
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Originally posted by Kazan:
the presidents stance is agressive..
Of course it is. Americans would tar and feather him if it wasn't.
What do people think would be the most effective and realistic way to go after an enemy who is entrenched among neutral civilians, as is most likely the case here?
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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That's the problem now isn't it. President Bush sure was right when he called them 'faceless cowards'.
Of course how 'innocent' is anyone who would not only willingly harbor such a person, but publicley applaud his actions.
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i think my mum put it best - "its like there is a distrubance in the force" - its sort hard to believe and things just feel wrong
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yes.. true... there is a disturbance in the heartbeat of our country, the tension is almost tangible
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From what I hear we (U.S.) are going to declare war on Terrorists and countries harboring terrorists and hopefully this crap will never happen again
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I'm heading off to bed; see you all tommorow.
Oh, and try to get in touch with Snipes/Raa Tor'h - he's supposedly in the process of moving from NY to FLA, but I expected him to have put his 2 cents on this topic a while ago... :-/
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Yea.. Snipes should have posted here by now (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif) (wow amazingly he's WANTED (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif))... maybe he got crushed in the crash? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
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-Director of the staff of Hidden Terror. ("http://www.hiddenterror.f2s.com")
-WebMaster of Imperial Productions ("http://www.jediknightleague.f2s.com/impprod")
The fear always controls our attitude, let us fear no more!
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oh no... snipes...
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(http://www.jediknightleague.f2s.com/other/DC.jpg)
amazing post count huh??? I'm lucky :P
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-Director of the staff of Hidden Terror. ("http://www.hiddenterror.f2s.com")
-WebMaster of Imperial Productions ("http://www.jediknightleague.f2s.com/impprod")
The fear always controls our attitude, let us fear no more!
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as a proud and loyal U.S. citizen, I cannot express my feelings of sorrow for the victims of the tragedy, and I cannot express my utter hatred towards the terrorists that have desicreated this country. whoever you are, you horrible unfathomly evil monster, you have no idea what load of s*** you've gotten yourself into. nobody f**** with this country and gets away with it. when we find out who you are, there will be hell to pay. we have enough power to render any nation in the world as flat as a pancake by the mere push of a button. and I pray to everything holy that we do you render you flat. I may be overreacting, but to see this kind of horror in my own country is unbelievable. you've cut a wound into us, but we still have a lot of life left. be afraid. be very afraid. in time, our revenge will be exacted upon our attackers. we will not tolerate terrorism. I could go on forever, but I'll stop at this: When our time comes, you will wish you were never born, and you will rot in hell for all of eternity.
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It doesn't matter who is to blame for causing them to hate us, it's the fact that nothing is worth doing that to anybody.
Nothing is worth blood, both sides are at vault in some way or another. I'm not going to say fighting never solves anything, because that is far from the truth. Armed conflicted has solved more problems in the world than peacful ones.
Once all this stuff is cleaned up, then our government will deal with Bin Laden or whoever it is. Bombing an embacy is one thing, but when you strike at home on american soil something of that size you are playing with a sleeping gaint's toes. The last time a precision attack occured on the US was on December 7, 1941. Yamamoto was right and he was a very wise man of opposing the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Japanese thought that the melting pot of the US would break up after that, but for some reason racism and sectionalism dissappears during war or the similar. Unfortunatly it only comes during conflict sad to say.
As the man said, "Revenge is best served cold."
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It is a very cold day
My brother called from fort bragg, they are on alert 1
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Originally posted by sandwich:
Lemme put some things straight...
Thank you for your explanations. I don't have true religious beliefs (more like as is quoted in the movie Dogma, I have "ideas" rather than "beliefs")... and as such I just find it hard to believe (but I'm starting to thanks to your explanations), that people would believe in a religion (let alone follow one) that tells them that all people of another faith/ethnicity must be killed because the religion says so.
I mean it's easier to understand (and, in my opinion, deal with) the Nazis. They were like a paranoia-hatred belief against another human race. Theirs wasn't because they believed that "God" told them to kill, kill, kill.
But these, Islams you say?... To hate another people because your religion says to? And what if your religion is wrong? Plus what do you do about these people. Nazis weren't based on religion, just hatred and prejudice, so you can condone acts to stop them... But when it's religious. Religion is something that's been with humans since the beginning. Now when a religion comes around that says that everyone who is not one of us is the "devil" and must be killed... how do you stop that? How do you convince people that their "God", their religion is the wrong "God", the wrong religion?
Just one last question though if you don't mind... so what's the difference between Muslim, Islam, and Arab?
Joe.
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Originally posted by CODEDOG ND:
The last time a precision attack occured on the US was on December 7, 1941.
There is one very big difference between this and Pearl Harbor...
Pearl Harbor was a military attack against a military target.
This is a few hijackers using civilian-filled, commercial aircraft against (except for the Pentagon) civilian targets.
Plus... it was not just an attack against the "American" WTC... destroying the WTC disrupted the global economy.
Joe.
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Wow.
Right now, thats about the only word I can think of to convey my emotions on today's occurances. Some of you have expressed to me that you wish HLP had taken a more active position in getting the word out. However, you must understand that we have all be very caught up in this whole thing, and its been hard, for me at least, to be able to concentrate on any tasks at hand. I've been watching CNN, CBS, Fox, and ABC since 9 am EST this morning, and never left that TV until 10 pm this evening. Needless to say, my eyes are killing me... Being a Communications major in school, this event has sparked keen interest within my department, and I thats why I dedicated so much of my time to it today.
I will definitely have more replies to some of the statements made here in the thread at a later time, when my thoughts and emotions are more collected. Right now, I can hardly swallow simply from the shear magnitude of this horrific catastrophy. I am tense with disturbing anger, yet at the same time, filled with emmense sadness for the loved ones of the victims who perished today. This should be a serious reminder to all of us, religious or not, that our lives are very precious and fragile, and can be taken from us in an instant. There was no warning. When those people left their desks last night, they had full intention of resuming their various projects the next morning. Now those people are dead. A very sobering thought that none of us should let die easily. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
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Staff Member, Hard Light Productions ("http://www.3dap.com/hlp")
Creator / Project Coordinator: The Perfect Storm ("http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/tps/")
TPS Forums Page - Click Here ("http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=The+Perfect+Storm&number=15")
Think you've got killer vocal cords? Voice actors needed! Email me @ [email protected]
These detonators were a piece of junk! I even followed the directions... - Lt. Commander Snipes - Special Operations Command
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Well Maeg, the true solution to the problem is stamping out individuality of entire peoples and cultural rape in truth.
What? We're being accused of that by these people?
Making it intentional and a plan within two generations, instead of the current six with four of terrorism with increasing amounts is required.
Not ethnic cleansing, not the killing of actual persons, but the categorising and destruction of cultural systems via Western education and intergration in earnest.
Why has such a thing never truly occured?
Because human beings are unable to think in terms of true long term planning.
Our last generation has been a failure due to it's being so... practical, and expedient.
Why are we not in space? No true resources, and NASA's budget is cut due to the data being nothing more then categorizing basics.
Pardon my cynicism, but the Western method of thought is literally incompatable with other modes of thinking.
Look at history, look at now, either a futile effort at tolerance is made (which makes us appear more "weak" to some) which in the end only strengthens the mindset, or active assimilation occurs...
If the active assimilation occurs, then there is a chance for the original cultures to resurge out of rebellion as a novelty in youth, and forms a healthy tension.
If the current path occurs, well look at Wall Street, and look at the lack of innovation within beaurocracy.
We'll be forced into different avenues and frontiers, when the other mindset gives Earth room enough... (once again, I'm easily accused of vastly over simplifying the issue for the method of the context it's written within, however the gross estimation does become this)
Edit: I heard mentions of Echelon earlier in this thread, mainly with Deus Ex (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
In actuality, though we do have Echelon, the little known fact is that the NSA despite having satillites in orbit that can pick out Lincoln's head on a penny and tap every E-Mail and phonecall on the planet can't compile the data at all. The computer crashes are so frequent that they *wish* they were using Windows. (one of the main reasons why the CIA and FBI are far more effective in traditional investigation, since the NSA's "techno powress" is very experimental and designed against a known target *cough* Russia *cough*, not broad monitoring)
Edit#2: Also going back on the thread, I noticed the mention on US military moves and oil transport.
Interesting enough that I had to watch British and Canadian news before I even heard of our under the table military movements.
Yes, all that Bush is concerned about at this moment is maintaining our oil supplies, a move which more then can escallate this issue.
If he contacted the moderate states, and asked them to guard "US oil interests" then with some proper talking he could give the US a better appearance in their face during this crisis. (having the resolve not to move in against allies and neutral parties)
No matter how much we in the US wish to blame the Mid East for the issue, we cannot appear to be moving against it until a proven enemy is found.
This is a tactical error on our government, mainly due to the aforementioned lack of ability to plan.
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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
[This message has been edited by Ace (edited 09-11-2001).]
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(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) I extend sympathy to those who lost loved ones in the terrorist attack. May God help us all.
As for the rest: No Comment
Max
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I have been watching the news last from 10 min before the second plane crashed,that was from 3pm here till 5am in the morning.I have no words to discribe this and the magnatute that those basterds coulddo something like this.This time the inteligence has failed. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
If iam not mistakeing the inteleigence has stoped 12 plane bombings in one sigle day in 1995.But if they didn't know about it the consequenses where not to be seen.I share my feelings whit the everyone that has lost friends ore famaly.
May god be whit you.
[This message has been edited by darkage (edited 09-12-2001).]
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This is the biggest thing I've seen happen since... since I don't know when. Since ever, in my lifetime.
The word down here in Australia is heavy. Every public channel is doing all-day coverage, and has been doing so since about 11pm last night, when the first plane impacted (11pm our time).
No-one has drawn responsibility yet. America doesn't have a target to fire at, which is why I doubt that the Kabul assault was the US's doing. Even then, as has been said before, they can't trample over an entire country for a few terrorists inside them, just the same as they couldn't have shot down those civilian liners.
A lot of political experts down here are pointing fingers at Pakistan for the hijackings - because the Pakistani people are huge supporters of the Taliban, and the Taliban are bound by their own code to refrain from terrorist acts. Pakistan has the means and the motive. But I'm not going to say anything just yet; I think we've all got to let the dust settle a bit before we all get too angry.
Rest assured, America will strike back for this - the most powerful country in the world would not tolerate this, would not let the perpetrators get away without any punishment. And once they've attacked the Pentagon, it's almost as if that's the precursor to moving up to DEFCON1 - the Pentagon is the military symbol of America. That is how we are reading from Australia, for now.
Reports here are that there were six planes - two 767s which took down both the North and South towers of the WTC, two 757s - one of which kamikazed into the Pentagon, the other attempting to get to the White House, but being unsuccessful. The other two were speculated to have been aimed towards President Bush's private retreat, but never reached their destinations. These are the reports from here, and I have no idea on their validity, though inaccuracies are mostly small and severely insignificant on the scale of things.
We just heard of the rescue team, comprising of about 300 firemen, who went in after the plane impacts, but were caught when the buildings collapsed. Missing presumed dead. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
(Has anyone heard from Raa? I hope he's alright...) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
The gravity of the situation is serious. All day in school, the only thing we've been doing is watching live CNN on TV. My prayers to all - I mean all. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
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i got a few maps of the WTC towers and the petagon and the last one is a map of the USA whit events on it.I hope noboby has objections about it if i post them? all of them grafs and where the planes have crashed in and what buildings it damaged when the WTC came down.
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(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/inferno/headz.gif)
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[email protected] Staff member of
SOC Inferno,
can you defeat
the shivans?
Soc Inferno
Project Rebellion ("http://www.avengershome.co.uk/rebellionhtml/")
Gost of the past ("http://www.gotp.f2s.com/")
iqc 102628858
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By all means - actually, I'm kind of curious, as a lot of the information that we're getting is - well - not quite right. Please, do.
(NB. If anyone does object, we can simply remove it later.)
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Originally posted by Ace:
Why is America "so disliked?" it's due to foreign policy designed by beaurocracy and conflicting personalities.
Hiroshima, Vietnam, the Gulfwar, the support to Israel, the embargo against Iraq, the bombing of former Yugoslavia.
That makes a pretty nice list..eh. Even if some of these action it's not just USA alone involved.
USA has the greatest military in the world and they have used this military force in many situations. Sometimes with a good purpose, sometimes with a not so good.
Personally I don't have any against the citizens in USA. _But_ I don't always agree what the goverment of USA have done (I can also say that I always don't agree with my own goverments way of handling things). And out there in the world there are people with different opionions than the USA and it seems like both sides want to get rid of each other.
Pez
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Originally posted by Setekh:
By all means - actually, I'm kind of curious, as a lot of the information that we're getting is - well - not quite right. Please, do.
(NB. If anyone does object, we can simply remove it later.)
I agree whit it always can be removed.Here are some pictures.
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/inferno/map.jpg)
A map whit the times of the crashes.
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/inferno/pe.jpg)
This shows how the plane was rammed in to the pentagon.
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/inferno/street.jpg)
This shows the ruble and dust after the WTC has collapsed.
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/inferno/wtc.jpg)
This is not the whole map but it will do for now.Again just like in the pentagon how the planes crashed into the towers and where.Ill see if i can get the other part up.I havent posted any pics of explosions i don't want to show these they are hart breaking.I only post them whit permission from the staff and from everyone els that want to know or see.
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Here is some info on why the buildings collapsed (haven't read it through yet)
http://mirror.pacific.net.au/wtc/usyd/ ("http://mirror.pacific.net.au/wtc/usyd/")
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Nice therie about why it collapsed.I have curently about 40 pics and some maps,and a timeline chart but that is out of date now.But i have seen the names off people that have died in the pane and the worst is that there was 1 child that was 2 years old and one that was 4 years old (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
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This morning, our time, the radio told it's version of the casualties.
About 50 000 dead in the WTC, about 800 firefighters dead, another 800 in the planes, and another 800 in the Pentagon, and over 100 cops.
I personally don't buy these figures, all the groups of 800 are just too coincidental.
EDIT. Reading CNN, those figures were greatly exaggerated. About 300 firefighters, 78 police officers, between 100-800 people at the Pentagon, 266 people on the planes, and an undetermined amount of thousands in the WTC itself.
[This message has been edited by Jabu (edited 09-12-2001).]
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Originally posted by Jabu:
This morning, our time, the radio told it's version of the casualties.
About 50 000 dead in the WTC, about 800 firefighters dead, another 800 in the planes, and another 800 in the Pentagon, and over 100 cops.
I personally don't buy these figures, all the groups of 800 are just too coincidental.
"--- FLIGHT INFORMATION ---
-United Airlines-
Flight 175 ... Boeing 767 ... Boston to LAX
56 passengers, 7 flight attendants, 2 pilots
plane down - crashed into the South Tower of World Trade Center
Flight 93 ... Boeing 757 ... Newark to SF
38 passengers, 5 flight attendants, 2 pilots
plane down - Pennsylvania - 80 miles SE of Pittsburgh
Somerset County Airport
info from The Washington Post:
plane crashed in western Pennsylvania
north of the Somerset County Airport, near Jennerstown
aviation officials speculate that they may have tried
to steer plane to a Washington-area target but
"encountered strong resistance from the flight crew"
United Airlines total 110 victims
-American Airlines-
Flight 11 ... Boeing 767 ... Boston to Los Angeles
81 passengers, 9 flight attendants, 2 pilots
plane down - crashed into North Tower of World Trade Center
Flight 77 ... Boeing 757 ... Washington Dulles to Los Angeles
58 passengers, 4 flight attendants, 2 pilots
crashed into the Pentagon in Washington DC
American Airlines total 156 victims"
According to this the victims in the flyplane crashes are 266.
"VICTIM INFO :
300+ NYC firefighters are confirmed missing or deceased
Deputy Chief and Chief of NYC Fire Department are confirmed among the victims
85+ police officers missing in NYC
reports speculating that 100-800 people are missing or deceased at the Pentagon
1000 confirmed hospitalized : bodies continue to be discovered
Reports are comming in that people are alive in the basement of the WTC."
I got the info from this site:
http://www.dal.net/wtc/ ("http://www.dal.net/wtc/")
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Remember what happened in the lynching of the 2 Israeli reserve soilders in Ramallah months ago? How that French news agency apologized for getting the PA in trouble by showing the video of the lynching? Well, it's happening again ("http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/12/LatestNews/LatestNews.34700.html").
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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...I just can't believe all this. I'm not shocked, I just haven't been hit by it all yet. It's inconceivable.
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It took me about 23 hours to really grasp the situation. Right now I'm having a hard time breathing.
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Originally posted by sandwich:
Remember what happened in the lynching of the 2 Israeli reserve soilders in Ramallah months ago? How that French news agency apologized for getting the PA in trouble by showing the video of the lynching? Well, it's happening again ("http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/12/LatestNews/LatestNews.34700.html").
Scum. No other words for the kind of person who could celebrate the deaths of hundreds of innocents.
Hopefully the world can regain some sort of sanity in the following days, and find the bastards that were responsible.... personally, I hope they go for the broad sword approach and go after every terrorist organisation, regardless of responsibility.
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There will be war. There will be bombs flying about. There will be death. There will be destruction. The death toll will double before all this is over.
Or not, it all depends.
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At this stage there is yet to be determined a way to resolve the current conflict within the international community. But the Hi-jackers were highly prepared and from what i can tell there is something the FBI and government agencies etc are keeping from us. Think about if there are over 200 passengers on one jet and only 5 Hi-jackers on it then how the hell can 5 hi-jackers take on so many people with a bunch of knives and paper box cutters. Wouldn’t they know what is happening, hey okay from what I know they said they had a bomb but can’t some one tell if there going to die from the way the hi-jackers are threatening them. People even called and said they would die. Well will know soon enough what’s going to happen.
May God help us all.
Because if WW3 ever started were surely going to pay the price
Max
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This is outrageous!!!!!!!!!!! They will find those bastards who did this, and when they do, there'll be hell to pay!!!
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Webmaster of Subspace Zero ("http://www.subspacezero.com")
Co-Creator, GroundZero ("http://www.subspacezero.com/omega18.htm")
ICQ# 117983680
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Who else is on our side? I've heard Britain and Russia... and I've heard that Singapore called what happened an outrage... and Tokyo shut down their stock exchanges also... that's four... who else is on our side?
And who else is in the nuclear club? Of course Russia, and they're already on our side. What about China? They're nuclear, are they on our side? Doesn't India also have nukes? Who would us "allies" be threatened by (via nukes) if we retaliated with nukes? (I'd like to know if we should go live with my wife's family in Trinidad and Tobago).
Joe.
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Speaking of pictures... I think this makes a nice sentiment (found it at Yahoo):
(http://www.joek.com/o/still_standing.jpg)
They may attack us in autrocious ways... but we still stand united.
Joe.
-
Hmmm...has anyone noticed this? A dude in another board thought this:
Hijacked planes:
11=11th
93=9+3=12th
175=1+7+5=13th
77=7+7=14th
I REALLY hope that this is just a coincidence...
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Originally posted by Eternal One:
Hmmm...has anyone noticed this? A dude in another board thought this:
Hijacked planes:
11=11th
93=9+3=12th
175=1+7+5=13th
77=7+7=14th
I REALLY hope that this is just a coincidence...
They're not that clever or resourceful, thank god. I think ll the Armageddon / Nostradamus references are way off....
Remember that it's not an army we're (the free democratic world) facing - simply a collection of determined and evil maniacs....
-
Originally posted by joek:
And who else is in the nuclear club? Of course Russia, and they're already on our side. What about China? They're nuclear, are they on our side? Doesn't India also have nukes? Who would us "allies" be threatened by (via nukes) if we retaliated with nukes? (I'd like to know if we should go live with my wife's family in Trinidad and Tobago).
Joe.
India and North Korea (atleast they suspect it) have nukes.
Pez
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The people with nukes are USA, Britain, France, possibly Israel(as a gift from the US) Russia, Korea, China, India, and Pakistan.
We may have to worry about the last four, but if either India or Pakistan takes sides, the other one will take the other side, so that makes three possible countries to worry about.
-
It's Gone:
(http://www.poenews.com/gone.jpg)
See Portal of Evil News ("http://www.poenews.com") for more. Do it now.
------------------
Visit Warpstorm. ("http://www.warpstorm.com") Do it now.
---------
I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.
-
Originally posted by joek:
Who else is on our side? I've heard Britain and Russia... and I've heard that Singapore called what happened an outrage... and Tokyo shut down their stock exchanges also... that's four... who else is on our side?
And who else is in the nuclear club? Of course Russia, and they're already on our side. What about China? They're nuclear, are they on our side? Doesn't India also have nukes? Who would us "allies" be threatened by (via nukes) if we retaliated with nukes? (I'd like to know if we should go live with my wife's family in Trinidad and Tobago).
Joe.
With the chummy new relationship Howard and Bush seem to have created, you can bet Australia will help...not that we can do an awful lot the way our military budget is right now, but we'll be there.
------------------
'Reality is the Playground for the unimaginative'
Member of the Tema Al Diablo ("http://tema_al_diablo.tripod.com") creation team.
-
First tower collapseing.
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/inferno/gone.jpg)
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/inferno/map2.jpg)
A map of some of the other WTC buildings.AS far as i know Builing 7 has collapsed it was 47 story high building.Building 5 on the map was on fire and also the posibilty of collaps.
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/inferno/15.jpg)
Second plane.
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/inferno/exp.jpg)
Collapsing
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/inferno/exp1.jpg)
Explosion from the second plane.
And ik hope that Snipes is ok.Please post dude.
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[email protected] Staff member of
SOC Inferno,
can you defeat
the shivans?
Soc Inferno
Project Rebellion ("http://www.avengershome.co.uk/rebellionhtml/")
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iqc 102628858
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I have no need for pictures, i was just about in the middle of it, and i tell you all, that i saw more bodies than anyone has to in real life. The skyline here will be for ever changed and prioties, such as mine are shifted. But i hope for the best for all those who still are in horror and pain. Seeing this first hand was like watching a movie, didn't really set in until they cornered of Manhattan and i could'nt get home for several hours. I just hope they find the bastereds reaponsable.
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This one goes out to all you bastards celebrating this right now. I took this from YOUR OWN HOLY F****** WRITINGS!!! so sit back and ENJOY MOTHER F******!!!
"My anger [with you] is not yet appeased,
and my hand is still upraised.
He lifts up a banner for distant nations,
he whistles for those at the ends of the earth.
Here they come, swiftly and speedily!
Not one of them grows tired or stumbles,
not one slumbers or sleeps;
not a belt is loosened at the waiste,
not a sandal thong is broken.
Their arrows are sharp,
all thier bows are strung;
thier horses' hoofs are like flint,
thier chariot wheels like a whirlwind.
Thier roar is like that of the lion,
they roar like young lions;
they growl as they seize thier prey and carry it off for no one to rescue.
In that day they will roar over it like the roaring of the sea.
And if one looks at the land he will see darkness and distress;
even the light will be darkened by the clouds..."
We are coming for you, and no prayer or appeasement will save you now...
[This message has been edited by jonskowitz (edited 09-12-2001).]
-
So nobody has been able to get in contact with Snipes...
seriously... me & Thunder want to know...
------------------
Temporal Mechanics ("http://www.fs2temp-mech.co.uk")
-
Originally posted by joek:
Who else is on our side? I've heard Britain and Russia... and I've heard that Singapore called what happened an outrage... and Tokyo shut down their stock exchanges also... that's four... who else is on our side?
Israel has had t-shirts for sale for many many years in our tourist traps in the center of town, that say:
"Don't worry, America! Israel is behind you."
Originally posted by ^Graff:
The people with nukes are USA, Britain, France, possibly Israel(as a gift from the US) Russia, Korea, China, India, and Pakistan.
Israel's nukes, while not officially recognized, are widely known to exist. We have developed the nukes AFAIK on our own, perhaps with the help of scientists from the US who moved to Israel.
------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
-
The weird thing with this is when I saw everything on TV the first time I felt totally numb and paralyzed (maybe thats the same thing?). Now when I see the plane hit the WTC tower and when the towers collapse, it just feels so unreal. And I can't imagine how you americans feels...
Pez
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Well look at my letest news thingy...
"9/11/01 Dr.Zer0 - Well meny of you alredy of heard about the attack on the WTC and the Pentagon, well since that I made a littel pic using a pic from the attack and CS models and made a littel render thingy here ("http://www.vidavision.com/entertainment/drzer0/terrorist.html"), sorry if it offends any of you but dont take it too hard Im saddend and scarred about it too(being that I live 4 miles from a NSA building thats in Washington DC) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)"
------------------
Calvin (Calvin & Hobbes):
YAAH! DEATH TO OATMEAL!
------------------
Head Campaign Manager in Knossos Campaign ("http://www.vidavision.com/entertainment/drzer0/index.html")
------------------
"You have been overloaded with knowlage my young friend" - untouchable
------------------
"When you mess with a doctor, you mess with evil forces" - The Brak show
[This message has been edited by Dr.Zer0 (edited 09-12-2001).]
-
I may not be an American, but when I see the video footage of those planes diving into the buildings it really turns my stomach upside down.
-
Originally posted by jonskowitz:
This one goes out to all you bastards celebrating this right now. I took this from YOUR OWN HOLY F****** WRITINGS!!! so sit back and ENJOY MOTHER F******!!!
...
...
...
We are coming for you, and no prayer or appeasement will save you now...
[This message has been edited by jonskowitz (edited 09-12-2001).]
Where is all that from, the Koran?
------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
-
Actually, it's from Isiah. But seeing how 90% of the Koran is copied (nearly verbatum) from the bible (old testament) I figured it's a safe bet that it's in thier books too.
-
Originally posted by Griffon UK:
So nobody has been able to get in contact with Snipes...
seriously... me & Thunder want to know...
I emailed him about 6 hours ago; no answer yet. However, he is supposedly in the process of moving from NYC to Florida, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's out of the loop for a while...
EDIT: I do know his real name, so if anyone knows abotu a comprehensive list of survivors, post the link.
------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
[This message has been edited by sandwich (edited 09-12-2001).]
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This is the best I could do, I pray you do not find him on it...
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/victims.list.ap/ ("http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/victims.list.ap/")
Expect to have trouble getting to it, there (understandably) seems to be a lot of activity there.
-
Be warned... some religious stuff below (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
What countries have to deal with this??? Lets see, Israel(24/7) and now it's starting in America. The reason of hating America is completely fake...an excuse. Lets see... Israel have Jews(God's people), and they have to deal with this kind of thing every day. America has a large(_very_ large) portion of Christians. Have any other religions other than Christianity been persecuted??? Don't think so... face it, Satan is just trying to get at the Christians/God's people.
------------------
-Director of the staff of Hidden Terror. ("http://www.hiddenterror.f2s.com")
-WebMaster of Imperial Productions ("http://www.jediknightleague.f2s.com/impprod")
The fear always controls our attitude, let us fear no more!
-
Originally posted by RKIF-DragonClaw:
Christians/God's people.
keep your religious arrogance out of this thread
[arrogance in calling yourselves "God's people"]
-
I'm sure he wasn't on there. None of the planes left from New York, and none were heading to florida.
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I know it was a terrible act, but I hope the U.S. Gov't keeps its cool and doesnt bomb the **** out of Afganistan(or any other country for that matter) on weak evidence, or assumptions...
The people in the country are innocent, its the people responsible who should be punished, not them and everyone around them...
And they shouldnt be killed either, because that makes us just as bad as. Find them and bring them before a judge, have them sent to a gulag or something. I would much rather die than go to a prison camp for the rest of my life...
------------------
You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on.
[This message has been edited by Thorn (edited 09-12-2001).]
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Originally posted by Kazan:
keep your religious arrogance out of this thread
[arrogance in calling yourselves "God's people"]
The Bible calls Jews as God's people... and you can think what you want about religious stuff, think what you want even. I don't care... it's not very hard to ignore people.
------------------
-Director of the staff of Hidden Terror. ("http://www.hiddenterror.f2s.com")
-WebMaster of Imperial Productions ("http://www.jediknightleague.f2s.com/impprod")
The fear always controls our attitude, let us fear no more!
-
Originally posted by RKIF-DragonClaw:
Be warned... some religious stuff below (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
What countries have to deal with this??? Lets see, Israel(24/7) and now it's starting in America. The reason of hating America is completely fake...an excuse. Lets see... Israel have Jews(God's people), and they have to deal with this kind of thing every day. America has a large(_very_ large) portion of Christians. Have any other religions other than Christianity been persecuted??? Don't think so... face it, Satan is just trying to get at the Christians/God's people.
I think this is hardly the time otr the place to start this.
-
Originally posted by Unidan:
I'm sure he wasn't on there. None of the planes left from New York, and none were heading to florida.
Yeah... so he's probably just stuck at some airport with no internet access when all the planes were grounded... Let's hope so.
Joe.
-
Cool it Kazan, He's entitled to his own opinion.
Truth is this attack very well may have been motivated by political reasons. Not the first time religious faith has been invoked for secular reasons (read: Crusades).
***WARNING***
***More 'religious' stuff follows***
Besides that, the Christian church very well may have once been Satan's tool (Catholisism during the dark ages). Those of you who believe in God might find it amusing that religion always seems to take a dark turn whenever it becomes a base for a secular government (Christianity in the dark ages, now Islam in our current time just to name a few).
If I'm not too far mistaken, Islam (or at least Mohammed) origionally preached for tolerance and acceptance for your fellow man. I'm not too sure on when it changed but I think it was just prior to the 2nd Crusade (I think it was the cause of it in fact.) Does anyone know for sure?
[This message has been edited by jonskowitz (edited 09-12-2001).]
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Yeah, and christianity was actually a peaceful religion before one of the popes said "totter off over there and beat their arses then".
If people are willing to die for their religion, they are either very stupid or brainwashed- in most cases it's the last.
This action, if it was religously motivated, goes against my belief that nobody has the right to force their religion on others- this goes from this action (IF it was religously motivated) to those annoying buggers in the street that call me the spawn of satan all the time. Although that is rather amusing.
My condolences to those who lost their lives, and I feel saddened that such an action as this had been taken. I am not american, so if this had been a hijacked civilian plane with no passengers on board hitting a military target, I wouldn't really care very much, but this is... well, the only word I can think of for it is slaughter.
-
What I wanna know- why didn't the passengers DO anything? I was expecting it to turn out that a third of the passengers on each plane were terrorists, sufficient numbers to subdue the rest if armed. Instead, we learn that at least in that one plane it was ONE GUY, and all of them were armed with a friggin' half- inch boxcutter!
I don't know about anyone else, but if I knew I was gonna die anyway I'd have jumped the hijacker, no matter what he had on him...
But nuking Afghanistan is basically another lynching, or more a genocide on a massive scale- if we did anything of the sort I'm afraid I'd have to agree with those assholes that this country is pure evil...
And people are willing o die for strange reasons- particularly if they are guaranteed a seat in heaven afterward. I've always found that many people who weren't agnostic/atheist like yours truly were willing to do the most monstrous things for religion... abortion clinic bombings, genocide (pretty much every single genocide, in fact), murders, etc. And even without religion, politics and other similar sorts of things can take its place.
-
Guys, allow me to state some facts for you. I will generalize, and of course there are always exceptions to the rule, but bear with me.
- The hatred and enmity between the Muslim Arabs and the Jewish people is a religious issue.
- The very existance of the State of Israel is a blasphemy to Allah and to Islam.
- The Koran teaches that to lie is perfectly acceptable if it further's Allah's cause, being the spreading of Islam to the ends of the earth.
- Arabs and Jews can and have lived together in harmony. It hasn't always been perfect, but the inter-racial situation here in Israel was much better before all this Oslo crap.
The reasons for this conflict of Islam against Judaisim and Christianity are exactly that: a conflict of religions. Each side can state that they are right until they're blue in the face, but it will not change the ultimate truth. Which is, you ask? Well, I have my own opinions about that, but that is far beyond this discussion board right now. Besides, I'm trying to keep this objective here. All I will say is that in The End™, we shall all see what is Right.
With that in mind, the conflict between Christianity/Judaisim and Islam will never be truly solved by man. "Truly" being the operative word. I'll leave it at that, but if anyone wants to find out more, just say so.
P.S. Joek asked what the difference was between Islam, Muslims and Arabs, IIRC. Muslims believe in Islam, just like Christians believe in Christianity. Both those are religon-oriented. Arabs are an ethnic group, with no nessecary relationship to religon. There are many Christian Arabs that I know of, for example, a few of them personally.
In the Bible, Abraham had 2 sons, Isaac and Ishmael. The decendants of Isaac are the Jews, and the descendants of Ishmael are the Arabs. The general acccepted religon of the Arab world is Islam, although that is by no means the only religon. Likewise, the general religon of the Jewish world is Judaisim, but neither is that all-inclusive.
------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
-
In my opinion we should stop talking about religion,We all know how HLP staff thinks about topics that go too religion because they and others don't want a flame war started about this so please keep it ON topic.
------------------
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/inferno/headz.gif)
------------------
[email protected] Staff member of
SOC Inferno,
can you defeat
the shivans?
Soc Inferno
Project Rebellion ("http://www.avengershome.co.uk/rebellionhtml/")
Gost of the past ("http://www.gotp.f2s.com/")
iqc 102628858
-
Oohh **** ...
In the news- they're ordering military strikes on most of the middle east! Afghanistan isn't much to worry about, but not only will we now fight w/o fuel, but who knows what weapons Iraq still has... this isn't good.
-
A partial collaps confirmed of the Liberty Plaza.
743 FT. Tall,
54 floors
built in 1973
A pitty that is't almost going down and it will surely hit surounding buildings (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
------------------
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/inferno/headz.gif)
------------------
[email protected] Staff member of
SOC Inferno,
can you defeat
the shivans?
Soc Inferno
Project Rebellion ("http://www.avengershome.co.uk/rebellionhtml/")
Gost of the past ("http://www.gotp.f2s.com/")
iqc 102628858
[This message has been edited by darkage (edited 09-12-2001).]
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One thing we need to do is to do something that their culture understands. They do not understand the word mercy. They think it is cowardly to show mercy. Seems funny that they think we are cowards when they are the ones that won't come out of their hiding places and step foward and fight with honor.
They have confirmed a vechile that was abandoned and filled with flight manual's that were in arabic, and also the vechile's were registered to arabs. That and the fact Bin Laden gave us fair warning his was gonna do something is another reason he is a prime suspect.
That plane that crashed in PA might have crashed because the civilians attempted to retake the plane. They are looking for its black box now.
IMO I'd rather have these rebels that blasted Kabul catch him. They are more ruthless and would torture him before they would kill him, but I doubt he will be taken alive anyways.
------------------
Click Here!!! ("http://www.sienarfleetsystems.homestead.com/index.html")
(http://sienarfleetsystems.homestead.com/files/teaser.gif)
What!?!? I'm not crazy, but the rest of you are! =)
-
From CNN.com
NATO supports retaliation
NATO ministers today unanimously declared the organization would provide military and logistical support for U.S. retaliation against those responsible for Tuesday's attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
-
Originally posted by Kazan:
...against those responsible...
At the moment, that's the problem, ain't it?
------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
-
Originally posted by Kazan:
From CNN.com
NATO supports retaliation
NATO ministers today unanimously declared the organization would provide military and logistical support for U.S. retaliation against those responsible for Tuesday's attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
[/B]
Well thanks a lot, that makes a viable target too, noit that we weren't already but we'll b higher on their scope now. Damn, there goes our EU presidency.
Anyway, I think we can throw all those Durban declarations in the paperbin now.
-
Bin Laden has been 'solidly' linked
-
'Bout bloody time, now they just have to find him...
If they just bomb the country I'll have lost all respect for the U.S. leadership...
------------------
You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on.
-
These people ("http://a188.g.akamaitech.net/f/188/920/1m/www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19050-2001Sep12.html") should be posthumously awarded a medal of heroism. Wow. God bless them.
------------------
America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
-
Origionally from CNN.com
Secretary of State Colin Powell says the coalition being formed will not stop at getting the people responsible for the attack, but will go after terrorists wherever they are found.
-
Origionally from CNN.com
Secretary of State Colin Powell says the coalition being formed will not stop at getting the people responsible for the attack, but will go after terrorists wherever they are found.
I think that this should be done... that the civilized nations of the world (those who respect human rights and freedom--no matter what religion) should take a stand against terrorism throughout the world.
Joe.
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some lady on a local news-radio around where I live (cleveland WTAM 1100am clear-band), called in and says the airliner found in PA was actually shot down. Only a rumor but would be interesting if the government says anything.
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it wasn't shot down.. she's full of crap
the passengers tried to retake the plain.. several called out on cell phones right before they did it
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Yes, thats right. And if she saw an explosion in the plane that could be the bomb the passengers mentioned blowing up.
[This message has been edited by Snakeseyes (edited 09-12-2001).]
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I'm an aussie but i'm getting live feeds from Cnn, etc, and seen the planes collide with the towers over and over again, in my honest opinion, the loss of a building is sort of alright (it can be rebuilt) it's the loss of live that angers me, it's inconcievable that people can be that cold and heartless to kill many hundreds/thousands of innocent lives in such a cowardly manner, looking back on history, religion in its many forms (i'm focusing on all religion) is responsible for a lot of voilence and death, but this is quite shocking. "Jihad" by the way, means "holy war" in islam (i think). I'm not being racist or anything i'm just making a point, and whoever perpetrated such a travesty must pay for what they have done by all means neccessary.
And i do hope that snipes is alright
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snakeseyes: i'm going to operate under the assumption you're not implying something
-
i'm not implying anything, and i certainly hope i didn't offend anybody. if i did i apologise for that.
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Guys, don't make me close this one as well.
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You stupid, one of the passengers that called his family said that the terrorists were holding a red box or something that looked like a bomb.
EDIT: That means that I didn't implied anything if you can't understand what I am saying. Sorry but I can't use very well the english form.
[This message has been edited by Snakeseyes (edited 09-12-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Snakeseyes (edited 09-12-2001).]
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Just remember this people, i read it in a book once, "the monster walks in the guise of the common man".
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And snakeseyes, it "looked" like a bomb, it doesn't mean it was one if it was, there would have been debris scattered everywhere not a plane shaped scorch mark on the ground.
and, if you think about what has been going on these past few days, it would have been pointless to blow up the plane in mid air.
I hope i didn't upset anyone by putting it this way but it's the truth
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You can't know what happened. Maybe the bomb went off accidentaly, maybe when the terrorists saw that they were going to loose the control of the plane they prefered to blow it up.
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yes.. and it could have just been large enough to take down the plane
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well, the only way one can be sure is that the "black box" is recovered, that is the only way one can be sure about what happened aboard that plane and the other three as well. They're built to survive anything, so i'm sure they'll be recovered soon and we can ALL find out what happened.
[This message has been edited by Turnsky (edited 09-12-2001).]
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The black box of that plane will be found. I don't know about the other planes' black boxes. I don't believe they could survive the impact, the explosion and the crushing.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9:
What I wanna know- why didn't the passengers DO anything? I was expecting it to turn out that a third of the passengers on each plane were terrorists, sufficient numbers to subdue the rest if armed. Instead, we learn that at least in that one plane it was ONE GUY, and all of them were armed with a friggin' half- inch boxcutter!
I don't know about anyone else, but if I knew I was gonna die anyway I'd have jumped the hijacker, no matter what he had on him...
Keep in mind...so far the ONLY flight that we know were the passengers knew they were going to die is the flight that crashed and did not hit it's target. The same one were passengers DID attempt something,..at least cell phone chatter stated this.
Now keep this in mind ppl...until now...ALL hijacked planes we've dealt with were not mass murders.....yes some had several deaths...but never have we had a plane hijacked to be used as a bomb. Thus the crew was under the impression "Ok if I try something ppl may be hurt or worse...but if we wait and play calm and do as we're told we may make it out alive"
This has now changed...bet on if another plane is ever hijacked...the passgeners WILL recall this event and the WILL fight back.
Personally I think Pilots and Co-Pilots should be issued a sidearm with lo velocity rounds (which wouldn't pierce the skin of the plane but still take out a person). If a guy in walking secuirty in a SHOPPING MALL is granted a firearm...WTF isn't the guy running a 747???
But one thing is certain...the world itself is now shaken and as Kazan put it...the Dragon has been awakened. Look at all the counties that have for decades opposed the USA...Cuba...Korea,..etc All coming out against this action and in support of the US? No I don't belive it's 100% because it's a terrible thing to have happened,..I believe with all my heart it's more the point of the US has been hit hard and on home soil,..and the world is shaking because they KNOW we will NOT sit back and tlak this one out. Peral Harbor woke the dragon into WW2 and we know how that went. Those at the root of this will pay,..and bet the US will be a different place from now on.
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Warlock
(http://www.gotp.f2s.com/DA.JPG)
DeathAngel Squadron ("http://deathangelsquadron.net")
CO
Do or Do Not,..There Is No Spoon
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To Fly Exotic Ships, Meet Exotic People, and Kill Them.
We may rise and fall, but in the end
We meet our fate together
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We don't, thankfully, get much of the action here. From my viewpoint, it's calmed down, but that's probably just because I haven't had the time to open the TV yet.
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Originally posted by Jabu:
We don't, thankfully, get much of the action here. From my viewpoint, it's calmed down, but that's probably just because I haven't had the time to open the TV yet.
That's a ditto here. We've still got live CNN coverage more or less all day, but they've got to run out of things to say eventually.
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Originally posted by Warlock:
Keep in mind...so far the ONLY flight that we know were the passengers knew they were going to die is the flight that crashed and did not hit it's target. The same one were passengers DID attempt something,..at least cell phone chatter stated this.
Now keep this in mind ppl...until now...ALL hijacked planes we've dealt with were not mass murders.....yes some had several deaths...but never have we had a plane hijacked to be used as a bomb. Thus the crew was under the impression "Ok if I try something ppl may be hurt or worse...but if we wait and play calm and do as we're told we may make it out alive"
Actually, one of the accounts I heard/read said that the passengers on the hijacked Pittsburgh plane were told that they were heading towards a hi-population target. Which is why they decided to do something. I think I heard that from the mother of Jeremy Glick on TV, but it's not in the on-line reports. I know that there were cases where the terrorists told the passengers to get on the phones and call family to tell them that they were being hi-jacked.
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
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Originally posted by Setekh:
That's a ditto here. We've still got live CNN coverage more or less all day, but they've got to run out of things to say eventually.
Nahhh they'll start talking about how the destruction of the WTC effects global economy and effects such and so... it can go on for a LONG time.
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-Director of the staff of Hidden Terror. ("http://www.hiddenterror.f2s.com")
-WebMaster of Imperial Productions ("http://www.jediknightleague.f2s.com/impprod")
The fear always controls our attitude, let us fear no more!
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Originally posted by RKIF-DragonClaw:
Nahhh they'll start talking about how the destruction of the WTC effects global economy and effects such and so... it can go on for a LONG time.
It was kind of more like a hope than a statement. They've been talking about it non-stop over here, I just want it to stop.
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Originally posted by Setekh:
It was kind of more like a hope than a statement. They've been talking about it non-stop over here, I just want it to stop.
Who doesn't want it to stop? Why keep grieving over the past, get ON with your life! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif) thats what I say to the news stations... why can't they start reporting on floods again?
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-Director of the staff of Hidden Terror. ("http://www.hiddenterror.f2s.com")
-WebMaster of Imperial Productions ("http://www.jediknightleague.f2s.com/impprod")
The fear always controls our attitude, let us fear no more!
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But one thing is certain...the world itself is now shaken and as Kazan put it...the Dragon has been awakened. Look at all the counties that have for decades opposed the USA...Cuba...Korea,..etc All coming out against this action and in support of the US? No I don't belive it's 100% because it's a terrible thing to have happened,..I believe with all my heart it's more the point of the US has been hit hard and on home soil,..and the world is shaking because they KNOW we will NOT sit back and tlak this one out. Peral Harbor woke the dragon into WW2 and we know how that went. Those at the root of this will pay,..and bet the US will be a different place from now on.
[/B][/quote]
I take offence to some of that. The uk isn't shaking and isn't scared of anyone. We've survived bombing ourselves and the only thing many ppl over here are worried about is being dragged into a war.
I think it's in some treaty somewhere that when America goes to war Britain is obliged to follow suit.
I saw the whole thing live on Sky Digital when I got home except for the first aircraft hitting and was shaken when I acctually could see (live by the way) people falling from the upper storeys to their deaths...I don't want to talk about it anymore so I'm staying quiet to see what's going to happen.
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Burn Baby Burn!
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Hey has anyone hear any word from snipes?
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Not yet, although if enough time passes I'm going to post on the news page to see if anyone else knows.
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Originally posted by Roy fokker:
Hey has anyone hear any word from snipes?
Nope i think he needed to leave his home for some days but i hope he is fine.And his birthday is in 2 or 3 days.Come back Snipes we need you spam.<----- in a good way
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Did anyone know about THIS ("http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Xinoehpoel&hl=en&group=alt.prophecies.nostradamus&rnum=1&selm=9no501%24glr%241%40geraldo.cc.utexas.edu")?
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They just found out a new debris site for that plane that crashed without hitting any target, which suggests that the plane was crashed in two before hitting the ground. Now, I may be wrong, but it would be really difficult to get through the airport security with a bomb strong enough to do that.
What this means, one can only speculate - but I believe it leads to a very clear possibility...
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So what? The guy got the date wrong. Just another half mad farquar who picks a random date for a cataclysm to try and scare evryone. He just got a little lucky (despite the fact he was more than a week off.
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'Reality is the Playground for the unimaginative'
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Did you read all the posts? The title is 911, and on day 04 he says that it'll happen in seven days. Pretty clear, eh?
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Everything about this is so phreaky. I'm actually starting to lose my no-faith...
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Originally posted by Warlock:
Personally I think Pilots and Co-Pilots should be issued a sidearm with lo velocity rounds (which wouldn't pierce the skin of the plane but still take out a person). If a guy in walking secuirty in a SHOPPING MALL is granted a firearm...WTF isn't the guy running a 747???
I think that the cockpit of the airplanes should be entirely separate from the rest of the plane. (Think of those transports in Space Above And Beyond). That way the pilots are locked into the cockpit (with their own bathroom and such) and if anyone tries to take control of the plane they will have no way possible.
Also, I did not know this until listening to Howard Stern, but they used to have armed, undercover Marshals on all airplanes just incase something happened... but then they stopped that... why? Sounds like a great idea to me.
Joe.
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Originally posted by joek:
I think that the cockpit of the airplanes should be entirely separate from the rest of the plane. (Think of those transports in Space Above And Beyond). That way the pilots are locked into the cockpit (with their own bathroom and such) and if anyone tries to take control of the plane they will have no way possible.
Also, I did not know this until listening to Howard Stern, but they used to have armed, undercover Marshals on all airplanes just incase something happened... but then they stopped that... why? Sounds like a great idea to me.
Joe.
El Al (the Israeli Ariline) carries 2 undercover officers with low-velocity weapons on all flights - they have never been hijacked.
Remember that to seperate the pilots from the rest of the plane would require trillions of dollars / euros / pounds in spending - there are thousands of planes that would have to be replaced....as a short-term solution is is unfeasible, and only really likely in the (very) long term for big carriers.
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Originally posted by Styxx:
They just found out a new debris site for that plane that crashed without hitting any target, which suggests that the plane was crashed in two before hitting the ground. Now, I may be wrong, but it would be really difficult to get through the airport security with a bomb strong enough to do that.
What this means, one can only speculate - but I believe it leads to a very clear possibility...
I think that even a small bomb could do that. If it would explode near the hull and opened a small hole it could be torn in two because of the decompression.
[This message has been edited by Snakeseyes (edited 09-13-2001).]
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Yes, I'm pretty sure a small bomb in the right place could make enough of a tear in the structure that the strain of the speed and air resistance could rip it in two. Or not, I'm not an expert.
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Originally posted by Warlock:
Peral Harbor woke the dragon into WW2
Ummm, WW2 started long before Pearl, the U.S. joined the war after the bombing, before that they just stayed out...
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You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on.
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i dont know if this has been already covered because there is to much material to read over but there was no bombs in any of the planes hitting the WTC because bombs explode in an expanding ball and do not just expand in random directions and then fall to the ground almost imediatly that was fuel, thats why the ex hi-jackers picked 2 flights both heading to LA because if they chose flights going from say boston to NYC then there would be very little fuel thus causing less damage on impact, the big fireballs were all the fuel from the planes and NOT a bomb, even internal flights in america are checked for bombs
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Originally posted by Thorn:
Ummm, WW2 started long before Pearl, the U.S. joined the war after the bombing, before that they just stayed out...
that's exactly what he's saying! We - The United States of America - are the sleeping dragon that has just been rudely awakened once again.
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Originally posted by The Avenger:
i dont know if this has been already covered because there is to much material to read over but there was no bombs in any of the planes hitting the WTC because bombs explode in an expanding ball and do not just expand in random directions and then fall to the ground almost imediatly that was fuel, thats why the ex hi-jackers picked 2 flights both heading to LA because if they chose flights going from say boston to NYC then there would be very little fuel thus causing less damage on impact, the big fireballs were all the fuel from the planes and NOT a bomb, even internal flights in america are checked for bombs
Periods are A1-SUPAR! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif) If everyone was afraid of us, this wouldn't have happened. We are somewhat a world power, mostly because we are big and bad and thu can push Europe into doing whatever we like... But we have tried once before to force our command on a third-world country totally opposed to us... for all our brute strength we got our *** kicked and came out looking like fine fools besides... and has everyone forgotten that Russia tried invading Afghanistan back when Russia wasn't in 30 million pieces, and Afghanistan wiped the floor with the Russians? Russia was right convieneiently near Afghanistan, and could bring much more power to bear than we can (weren't exactly hindered by wanting to come out looking like the good guys like we are either), and the Afghan army has if anything increased in strength, since when the Russian army left it didn't bring its bombs and tanks and guns... After the absolute fanaticism shown in this event, do you really think we can expect any less if we show up on their doorstep?
The countries that have allied w/ us are worried about terrorists attacking them, if anything. And I believe most of them genuinely never want to see this happen to anyone, even the US, again. So don't be arrogant- we're in trouble as it is.
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stryke if you're refering to Vietnam - that doesn't count - the gloves never came off, the hands of our commanders were tied - the full force of our military machine never even was even considered being used.. perhaps one ten thousandth of our abilities were commited
targets have been announced
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Those of us that have actually served active duty at some point know exactly how strong the US military is.
You say these terrorists aren't afriad of us? If this were true ...now think....would they not have announced within hours that they had pulled this attack off? If they truely thought that in an open war they had more than a chance in 3 hells of not getting they're asses kicked,..they'd have some balls and speak up instead of hide behind whoever will let them park in their country.
As for Russia's old military lol Dude...compare staticial data...one factor of active training was a good working knowledge of Russain military weapon and equipment as far as what it's capable of etc etc....they never had all that much. The best russian military piece was the Hind-D,...but a single Apache can handle it at 10 miles out with no problem. The only reason the US has ever had any difficulty in combat was things like in Nam.,..we weren't allowed to use our full strength or we had certain lines we couldn't cross (don't shoot past that road) and crap like that. Once this goes to war...I doubt that will be true this time...it's more likely it will be fully followed through until we remove the threat.
But only time we truely tell.
------------------
Warlock
(http://www.gotp.f2s.com/DA.JPG)
DeathAngel Squadron ("http://deathangelsquadron.net")
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Do or Do Not,..There Is No Spoon
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We may rise and fall, but in the end
We meet our fate together
-
Some of us got this in my e-mail. If ya didnt here it is anyways....
TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES
This, from a Canadian newspaper no less, is worth sharing...
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a
remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a
Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his
trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the
most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the
earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted
out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of
dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is
today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United
States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans
who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on
the streets of Paris. I know, I was there.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that
hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened
by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing
about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any
other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet,
the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC 10? If so, why don't they fly
them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American
Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on
the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You
talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about
American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but
several times and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the
store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not
pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them,
unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars
from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down
through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the
Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody
loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else
raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even
during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned
tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this
thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to
thumb
their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles.
I
hope Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America!
*
Many people should be getting e-mails of this sort.
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In the words of one of my vietnamese freinds (she moved here when she was 6 - and was from South vietnam)
"We kicked their [North Vietnam] butts, they just don't know it."
for her those are very strong words, she's extremely soft-spoken [and extremely beautiful! wow ... *slaps himself - get ahold of yourself man!*)
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Black Box found at the PA crash!!! I just heard a possible raid on Afagny this weekend. Bush's quoted as saying war on terrorism is now the entire focus of his presidentcy.
*runs back to dinner and more info*
------------------
Warlock
(http://www.gotp.f2s.com/DA.JPG)
DeathAngel Squadron ("http://deathangelsquadron.net")
CO
Do or Do Not,..There Is No Spoon
DeathAngel Squadron and Ghosts of the Past Forum ("http://www.dasquad.f2s.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard//ikonboard.cgi")
Ghosts of the Past WebSite ("http://www.gotp.f2s.com")
To Fly Exotic Ships, Meet Exotic People, and Kill Them.
We may rise and fall, but in the end
We meet our fate together
-
The governments of Britain, Germany, Switzerland and Japan (and others) have released information about their citizens who were in the WTC on 9-11. Looks like the Afghanis are really screwed now.
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An invasion of Afghanistan would be a meat grinder. It would be the Soviet invasion all over again. Bombing the entire place into churned earth ten feet deep would be about the only way to 'win' and even then you'd be faced with having essentially commited genocide.
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Originally posted by CODEDOG ND:
TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES...
Thank you for that Codedog... I'll never say a bad thing about Canadians again.
*teary-eyed*
Joe.
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I found this at CNN: an Afghanistan timeline ("http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/south/08/08/afghan.timeline/index.html")...
Seems like we helped Afghanistan drive out the Soviets... and this is how they repay us.
Joe.
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Yeah, where do you think all those Stingers and **** came from?
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BTW... this is circulating around in emails... for all Americans...
Subject: Americans Show Unity Against Terrorism - Friday, Sept. 14, 2001
Friday Night at 7:00 p.m. step out your door, stop your car, or step out of
your establishment and light a candle. We will show the world that Americans
are strong and united together against terrorism.
Please pass this to everyone on your e-mail list. We need to reach everyone
across the United States quickly.
The message: WE STAND UNITED - WE WILL NOT TOLERATE TERRORISM!
... also another one is going around saying to wear Red, White & Blue on Friday...
Joe.
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Candaians are cool...just dont steal their bacon. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
The Russians have also offered aid if we decided to attack the Afgan's including tatical, more precise maps, etc.
Hopefully it won't come to this, but even though they have the Stinger missile, we also don't have a bunch of big gaint slow Hinds flying about as the main stay of our helicopter fleets, and that's one main reason the Russian were defeated since they couldn't soften up the smaller targets before sending in troops.
Hopefully this won't be another Vietnam.
No comment on Vietnam either...
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it was qutei some time ago that the us gave them stingers - do you think they have any left? or the oens that they do have do you think they will still work? i doubt they been kept in the best possible storage facilities
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Listening to some of you makes me wonder if any of you have ever actually seen a HIND, or a HAVOK for that matter...
The Russians sent some of them with us to africa (during operation Restore Hope in somolia). Let me tell you, those things are GIGANTIC, and they are litterally flying tanks. The one vulnerable spot the things have is thier damn rotors, and American sh!t has the same vulnerability before any of you speak up about it. I might agree that Soviet tanks and (mostly) aircraft are junk, but thier helo's are scary, just plain scary.
What defeated the soviets in Afghanastan is the same thing that defeated us in Vietnam, lack of popular support for the action back home as well as a total lack of experience fighting guerilla warfare (hell, the Veitnamese and Afghanastanis practically invented the stuff during WWII) Any difficulty the soviets had in softening up targets prior to an assault had to have been a command or communication problem, I do not beleive that it could have been any trouble with thier hardware.
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Yeah, there's a quote by an afghani that basically goes 'we do not fear the Russians, we fear their helicopters.' The Hind is a flying tank, and fast.
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Hell, I fear the Hind, that is one tough chopper.
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"Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty"
Fastest Man Alive
Go Ravens!
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Originally posted by CODEDOG ND:
TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES
Hate to tell you guys this, but that was written in the 70's. It isn't recent.
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We were talking about this in English at school- we're studying media. Someone pointed out the Israeli reaction to the destruction, and someone else pointed out that they might not have even known about it: it might have been some annual celebration or something. It probably wasn't, but there's always that chance- who knows what facts the media might have twisted? They choose some things to show in order to manipulate people. And most of the news comes from channels in the USA.
I'm not saying that this wasn't bad or anything, I just want to point out media influences, so don't take me wrong.
Oh yeah, and Amnesty International apparently made some announcement or something about the abuse of human rights. They also said that America shouldn't exact revenge, just justice. There is a difference.
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Just found this article from New Scientist: Design choice for towers saved lives ("http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991281").
That's true too esta, that justice would likely be better than revenge. Revenge is dangerous - too many emotions involved.
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hey bin laden is under arrest byt the taliban of all people - and should it be needed we have a british task force in the area or on its way 17 warships - 66 challenger2 tanks - and 20000 personel - combined with the american presence in teh area the terrorist should be getting very scared by now =)
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Originally posted by CODEDOG ND:
...I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else
raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even
during the San Francisco earthquake.
US: IDF rescue team not needed ("http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/13/News/News.34750.html")
I agree that America is the helpful Big Brother to the rest of the world, but they have definetly been offered help by Israel numerous times, both in past events and this current tradegy.
Also: US to Israelis: 'We will not forget your friendship' ("http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/12/LatestNews/LatestNews.34704.html")
Originally posted by icespeed:
We were talking about this in English at school- we're studying media. Someone pointed out the Israeli reaction to the destruction, and someone else pointed out that they might not have even known about it: it might have been some annual celebration or something. It probably wasn't, but there's always that chance- who knows what facts the media might have twisted? They choose some things to show in order to manipulate people. And most of the news comes from channels in the USA.
I'm not saying that this wasn't bad or anything, I just want to point out media influences, so don't take me wrong.
Clarification: The celebrations at the WTC terror attacks were from the side of the Palestinian people. See here ("http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/11/LatestNews/LatestNews.34618.html"). Yes, Arafat condemed the attack, but look at the reactions of his people.
One more thing has really ticked me off today. For those of you who are French: No offense, but your government, is seriously messed up. Look at this ("http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/14/LatestNews/LatestNews.34852.html").
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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i think the point the frech ambassador was trying to make was teh scale of it - there has never been an terrorist attack of this magnitude before and lets all hope there never is again
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SNAFU
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FUBAR (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
Stonesoft had an office in the WTC, I think.
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Originally posted by CODEDOG ND:
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else
raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even
during the San Francisco earthquake.
I know that Sweden offered 70 man with trained search dogs. USA had/wanted 24 hours to reply but they never replied.
Pez
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Originally posted by Eishtmo:
Hate to tell you guys this, but that was written in the 70's. It isn't recent.
and let's also say that they (US) didn't always help because of altruism...
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Damm i am still abit woryed about Snipes. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
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Oooppppsss.....
CNN USING 1991 FOOTAGE of celebrating Palistinians to manipulate you ("http://indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=63288&group=webcast")
I don't know if this is true but it's always nice with a little propaganda [sarcasm]
Pez
[This message has been edited by Pez (edited 09-14-2001).]
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Originally posted by Pez:
CNN USING 1991 FOOTAGE of celebrating Palistinians to manipulate you ("http://indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=63288&group=webcast")
Maybe they are using old footage (which I find a disgrace as they maybe be doing it just to make more Americans angry or something)... but it cannot be denied that there was celebrating when the tragedy unfolded.
Not only do we have word of this from sandwich who lives over there (posted in this very same topic):
his people are celebrating in the streets over here, handing out candy to the children, etc
But also, that link states that the footage they are showing is of:
the Palestinians celebrating the bombing, out on the streets, eating some cake and making funny faces for the camera
This is not what I saw... not from CNN, but from a spanish channel (I live in South Florida and we have at least three of them) who first showed the footage of these people jumping in the streets, holding up their flags, and one guy driving by honking his horn.
While CNN may be showing some old footage, it only discredits CNN, not the fact that there were people celebrating this horrendous event.
Joe.
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Originally posted by CODEDOG ND:
Hopefully this won't be another Vietnam.
Not a chance. If it happens this will be a full force operation.
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Originally posted by joek:
This is not what I saw... not from CNN, but from a spanish channel (I live in South Florida and we have at least three of them) who first showed the footage of these people jumping in the streets, holding up their flags, and one guy driving by honking his horn.
While CNN may be showing some old footage, it only discredits CNN, not the fact that there were people celebrating this horrendous event.
Joe.
I agree with you Joe. And if this really is footage from '91 you gotta ask the question why CNN would show this.
Pez
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Scary discussion:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/336291/ ("http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/336291/")
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When Americans and Russians fought against the Vietnamese and the Afghanis, they were really fighting each other. Americans supported Afghanis and Russians Vietnamese. Now if they cooperate, or even if one side won't interfere at all, there won't be a problem with the Talibans.
As for the weaponry Russia have, they are as advanced as Americas. The Hind is a very fast chopper with a different role than the Apache. They always had better technology in helicopters. Hind is a flying tank, it's very well armed. I don't know if this is true, but they are planning to produce one helicopter that has supersonic speed.
Their planes also are very good. Su-27 and Mig-29 are very good planes, equal to your F-16 and F-15. Their Artillery weapons are also advanced. They have a new Rocket system, RM-xx, I can't remember its name. It's standard rockets have a range of 80 km, whereas your MLRS if I remember well have a range of 45 km. Their rifle, the AK-47, is a very good rifle, powerfull and with a good range, although it starts to show its age.
I know all this because our army is one of the very very few that has weapons from both sides. MLRS and the older RM-70 (the russian mlrs), russian hovercrafts, american helicopters (Apache), american and european rifles and planes, the F-16 and Mirage-2000 planes and M-16 and G3 rifles.
The comparisson between the two countries is a difficult, and I really don't think there is a winner.
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Originally posted by Pez:
Oooppppsss.....
CNN USING 1991 FOOTAGE of celebrating Palistinians to manipulate you ("http://indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=63288&group=webcast")
I don't know if this is true but it's always nice with a little propaganda [sarcasm]
Pez
Looks like it was a Brazilian that pointed it out, and he's already being attacked just for saying that the footage might be fake. Hatred is building up fast, and the media has everything to do with it. I was wondering why CNN was taking such an extremely harsh approach to it even before I knew about this - now I know that what they want is war. And they seem to want it badly.
The latest headline on CNN is America's New War, if you were wondering...
[This message has been edited by Styxx (edited 09-14-2001).]
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Its not the first time CNN does that. Remember the video of the cormorane they showed back in the invasion of Kuweit? The bird was in the sea that was covered with oil and they wanted to show the natural disaster the Iraqis did. But really that video was filmed elsewhere, in North Sea, I think near Norwegia. CNN wants a war. It is their food.
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It's just sick really...
Heh, echoes of Tomorrow Never Dies anyone?
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The Palestinians were celebrating at the time that the WTC was attacked. The Israelis were pulling out of Jenin.
(Jenin, for those who don't know is a Palestinian-populated city. I believe that it's on the West Bank.)
EDIT: True I don't know what the reaction of every Palestinian was to the destruction, but the actions of a minority (enough to fit in one picture, by the looks of what I've seen in the papers - just the one image) do not dictate the mood of everyone of that group. Osama bin Laden is a Saudi. Are all Saudis, allies of the U.S, hoping to blow up tall buildings?
How much can we trust the good ol' corporate news media regarding this? If they reported everything even-handedly, it would be clear to all why people hate America, and what it has done, in their opinion to incur this wrath. Maybe we could have seen this coming a little better, or have reacted to the treatment of the world to prevent this. I guess now we'll never know. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
The only kind of retribution against the terrorists I feel would work and be justified, other than trial for those individuals responsible, is a concerted and co-ordinated long-term effort to improve the lives of those that oppose the U.S and West. We appear to live in ivory towers and mete out punishment to them, however true that may really be. By 'killing them with kindness' the terrorist recruitment base is drastically reduced.
All respect to those that died in the attacks, I abhor the loss of human life of any kind, anywhere. However, to quote Shrike's title there was "some real life sh1t" going on in other countries every day they were alive - and it's still doing so now.
Maybe this is the wrong time for this post. Maybe we should be focused on paying our respects. But I can't help but think about other stuff too, and beyond the human dimension I have a more objective view (I live in Britain).
[This message has been edited by Kellan (edited 09-14-2001).]
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Gotta remember you may have the american Apache, but you don't have the new Commanche. It'll be tough to find a stinger or any missile that can lock onto it. And I doubt anybody will be getting their hands on it for a looooonnngggg time since it is the first stealth helicopter.
I would say Naplam would be more effective but there isn't anything out there to burn. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) j/k
Also, does it really matter at what time the Candains wrote that paper?
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Yes, actually it does. For instance, I can find any number of quotes calling the Americas Colonies of Britain and France, if I go back far enough. I know, drastic example, but I would hope you get the idea.
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Originally posted by Kellan:
The Palestinians were celebrating at the time that the WTC was attacked. The Israelis were pulling out of Jenin.
Pardon me, but you're wrong. The Palestinians began celebrating because of the news of the terror attack. The IDF wasn't pulling out of Jenin, look here ("http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/11/News/News.34531.html").
I know that CNN can and oftentimes is biased - I frequently get ticked off at them for such stuff - but they were right on target when they reported about the Palestinians celebrations. I don't understand why it's so hard for people to grasp the simple fact that the Islamic world (in general; there are always exceptions) hates America's and Israel's guts.
Face reality, people. Where I live, we don't have a choice.
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Sandvich: What does the palestinans newspapers (if they have any) say about the celebrations? The Jerusalem Post seems to be jewsish newspaper and it would be nice to see it from their perspective.
Pez
[This message has been edited by Pez (edited 09-14-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Pez (edited 09-14-2001).]
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The world is an evil thing.
"I teach you the overman. Man is something to be overcome." - (Thus spake Zarathustra, Prologue, Ch 3) - Nietzshe
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Originally posted by Kazan:
The world is an evil thing.
Agreed.
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[email protected] Staff member of
SOC Inferno,
can you defeat
the shivans?
Soc Inferno
Project Rebellion ("http://www.avengershome.co.uk/rebellionhtml/")
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iqc 102628858
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There's an old English saying...
"Never eat fried eggs before you go on a drinking spree".
That, however is irrelevant, what is relavant is the one everybody knows
"Life's a ***** , and then you die"
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Originally posted by sandwich:
Pardon me, but you're wrong. The Palestinians began celebrating because of the news of the terror attack. The IDF wasn't pulling out of Jenin, look here ("http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/11/News/News.34531.html").
[/b]
Sorry sandwich, I stand corrected. You're closer to events there, so I'll take your word for it. I see that I mixed up 'pull out' with 'go in' and I doubt that any Palestinian would be cheering IDF tanks going in, given the relationships about those parts.
I know that CNN can and oftentimes is biased - I frequently get ticked off at them for such stuff - but they were right on target when they reported about the Palestinians celebrations. I don't understand why it's so hard for people to grasp the simple fact that the Islamic world (in general; there are always exceptions) hates America's and Israel's guts.[/b]
The main problem with the bias in news is it's everywhere - there are few alternative outlets, and even those purporting to offer the 'real' voice merely contradict everything written by the corporate news media just to appear consistent and non 'sellout'.
I'm not even going to go into the whole Muslim world thing - it's just too inflammatory, and gets too far off of the point. If you do want to know my views, email me - it's not like I'm difficult to find. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
--Kellan
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Originally posted by Pez:
Sandvich: What does the palestinans newspapers (if they have any) say about the celebrations? The Jerusalem Post seems to be jewsish newspaper and it would be nice to see it from their perspective.
You are quite right in saying that the J-Post is a Jewish paper. However, keep in mind 2 things:
A) Palestinian news is (correct me if I'm wrong) run by the Palestinian Authority (PA), which is essentially the nearest thing they have to a government considering they aren't a nation.
B) It's not only the Jerusalem Post that reported the celebrations - all the news agencies caught it on the first day. However, what the world didn't see was videos of the PA policemen parrticipating in the celebrations. So while Arafat sent "condolences", his men were celebrating the slaughter.
I was searching for a PA news site despite all this, and ran across the Al-Ayyam site. It was all in Arabic, however, but I looked at he URL's in the status bar and found the link to their daily cartoon. Need I say more? ("http://www.al-ayyam.com/today/images/car.jpg")
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Can't exactly blame them for not feeling very sorry for us... Reasons why aside, if something you percieved as the embodiment of evil and cause of all your misfortunes got it in the nuts, would you be crying over it?
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Originally posted by sandwich:
B) It's not only the Jerusalem Post that reported the celebrations - all the news agencies caught it on the first day. However, what the world didn't see was videos of the PA policemen parrticipating in the celebrations. So while Arafat sent "condolences", his men were celebrating the slaughter.
I don't doubt a second that some palestinans and even policemen celebrating. I just thought it would be interesting to see what a palestinian paper would report about the celebration.
Pez
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Originally posted by Kazan:
The world is an evil thing.
"I teach you the overman. Man is something to be overcome." - (Thus spake Zarathustra, Prologue, Ch 3) - Nietzshe
If this is what you think Kazan I can only feel sorry for you. I have always believed that our race has a fundamental want to be peaceful and benevolent.
I may be just idealistic but I can only hope.
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Yes. Once some sense of balance is given to the world someday, maybe we can move towards proper and lasting peace.
Also, having read a great deal from all manner of commentators following these attacks, I have found someone (on the recommendation of others) who embodies retaliation, reconstruction and humanity combined. The essays concerned are http://www.ornery.org/essays/2001-09-11-1.html ("http://www.ornery.org/essays/2001-09-11-1.html") there. I recommend that you go and read them.
Oh, and check out the forum too, because some important issues are voiced and debated in a rational, measured manner.
--Kellan
[This message has been edited by Kellan (edited 09-16-2001).]
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Stryke 9 - I agree with you 100% on this.
Pez, I couldn't find any online PA papers that had back issues - at least, not any in English. :-/ I should have liked to see what they said about it, too.
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Originally posted by Maeglamor:
fundamental want to be peaceful and benevolent.
you're diluted - we're a predatory species
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"Why Climb it?" - "Because it's there."
"God is dead." - Nietzsche
-----------------
FreeSpace 2: The Babylon Project Effects Nerd and Programmer. ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/babylon")
Alliance Productions ("http://alliance.sourceforge.net")
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I'm sure that we can imagine, given the grim reality of Stryke 9's comments, which I can't help but agree with either.
I'm reading an article from the Washington Post now (I got hold of a printed copy) that focuses on Arab and Israeli children. One Palestian boy (13) says "We're happy about suicide bombings....I say it's okay whether Israeli kids or soldiers of old people get killed...because they're occupying land that doesn't belong to them."
At the same time the article says that the children's history books say that the Holocaust was overplayed (hah, hardly - 6 million goes into 5,000 1,200 times, remember) and that the objective of the 1948 War of Independence was for Israel to "seize Palestinian lands....and exterminate the original inhabitants".
With that kind of systematic propaganda, even in school books how can you blame the kids for celebrating? They've been lied to by all their elders; it's Mum and Dad you look out for - but then they've been indoctrinated by their parents...and so on.
However, one Jewish boy, also thirteen says that "Even if they kill all of us, then the last living Jew will drop a bomb on them..."
A fairly horrific scenario, I am sure that you will agree, for all concerned. It seems clear to me that in many ways beyond the mere physical, both Palestinians and Israelis are the victims. It's too early to turn attention to the striking similarities in the background to the WTC bombings yet without just being inflammatory, so I suggest the conflict in Ireland as another similar reference point. Now I do know a bit more about that than Israel or America, being a person of Irish descent living in England.
--Kellan
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Originally posted by Pez:
I know that Sweden offered 70 man with trained search dogs. USA had/wanted 24 hours to reply but they never replied.
Pez
UK offered a trained disaster recovery team - one of the best in the world - which had worked in many major eathquake sites....also bear in mind the travel restictions on air flight at the time.
I think the main reason America doesn't want (rather, accept) this help, simply to send out the message that, 'whatever you throw at us, we can handle it (and we will have justice)'.
which, in all fairness, is a good message to send, especially for national pride. i'd expect America to have excellent disaster control teams, anyway, given the threat of earthquakes, etc.
It's not like places in Africa, etc, where there isn't the funding.
On the other hand, in Europe we delayed the european mathces as a mark of respect. Although this was good for Rangers (my team), as we are appealing agianst having to play in Degestan, I'd have to disagree with it, as it shows that normal life can be disrupted by these acts... I feel that it may send the wrong message.
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Originally posted by Kazan:
you're diluted - we're a predatory species
In which case you're a mindless automoton, we are able to exceed our 'design specifications'. We were not designed to fly or exist in vaccum but we endeavor to overcome all obstacles.
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Originally posted by Maeglamor:
In which case you're a mindless automoton, we are able to exceed our 'design specifications'. We were not designed to fly or exist in vaccum but we endeavor to overcome all obstacles.
'mindless automoton' my arse.. if i were a mindles automoton i would be taking orders, not breaking orders.
We don't fly - we have machines that fly, and carry us.
We don't exist in a vaccum, we build a machine that can and has a pressurized atmosphere in it so it can carry us.
These are not exceeding our 'design specifications'. These change nothing about our basic impulses: Territorialism, Tribal Affiliation (don't take the word 'tribal' litterally), Reproduction, eating, competition
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Please note that at no point in the above statement did I say that we either exist in vaccum or fly of our own accord the only fact that I stated was that we endeavor to overcome all obstacles. You are being far too literal and relying on making me out to be simple minded to make any kind of argument. If you need an example I could use your point on:
'We don't fly - we have machines that fly, and carry us.'
If I were to use your literalistic approach then I could point out that those machines don't actually fly, they require a human to control every aspect of their operation and therefore as their own entity are even less capable of air travel than we are. We could go on for hours attempting to point out every single ambiguity but you have full knowledge of what I mean or perhaps you are not so intellegent as you consider yourself to be.
Secondly to claim you are not an automoton simply because you don't follow orders, you break them is also a little confusing. An automoton carrys out the function it is designed to do, if it breaks a set of rules to carry it out it is simply a result of it's actions.
Since you believe in our natural predatory instincts I can only conclude that you live your life completely true to those beliefs, so you are either an automoton carrying out your function or you need to consider what you are actually writing before you write it.
Yes we do have basic impulses, that is part of our 'design specification' if we only carry out these functions then we never exceed these specifications. Give me an example of anyone who does actually act entirely on instinctive impulses. Everything we do that is not based on these impulses is an example of our breaking design specifications.
Note that I got the entire way through this without once requiring profanity to make my point. Profanity is best used in comedy not to try and convince someone that you're correct.
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you failed pyschology didn't you
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"Why Climb it?" - "Because it's there."
"God is dead." - Nietzsche
-----------------
FreeSpace 2: The Babylon Project Effects Nerd and Programmer. ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/babylon")
Alliance Productions ("http://alliance.sourceforge.net")
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Originally posted by Maeglamor:
relying on making me out to be simple minded to make any kind of argument
As usual you use a quick stabbing remark with no explaination and have given weight to what I just quoted.
Perhaps I should use that old piece of wisdom 'never argue with a person who knows that they are right' and stop trying to make a point to someone who is not willing to listen.
Only when you know what this means and apply it will you be able to have a truely non-biased view.
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when i'm not specific it means one thing: the entire thing you just said is ALL wrong, it would be pointless to pick out individual errors because it's all erronious
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Oh well *Maeglamor shrugs and gives up*
You win.
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Guys, Kazan in particular - grow the hell up or this gets owned. I don't want to given it's nature, but if your so stupid as to let this of all threads turn into a flame war then it'll get owned like any other.
[This message has been edited by Thunder (edited 09-16-2001).]
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Originally posted by Thunder:
...a flame war...
Gosh, this kind of reasoned, calm "flame war" is actually kinda refreshing compared to the l33tsp34k or ALL-CAPS junk usually encountered. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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hmmmm....911 emergency line turn it around and you get 11-9 and that was a tueseday.They took the US it's emergency line as that date to attack.Please tell me if this already has been discust.
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the way we aermicans write our dates you dont have to do any turning
MM-DD-YYYY
9-11-2001
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It's actually more significant that in Islamic numeric code, Osama bin Laden comes out as 9 1 1. Tuesday was also the anniversary of the signing of the Camp David Accord.
I've been doing my homework.
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Interesting words from an exil-afhgan. It's well worth reading.
"We come now to the question of "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age". Trouble is, that's been done."
http://www.livejournal.com/users/djlavey/ ("http://www.livejournal.com/users/djlavey/")
Pez
[This message has been edited by Pez (edited 09-17-2001).]
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Originally posted by Kazan:
you're diluted - we're a predatory species
(steps into protective suit (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/devil.gif) )
We're an omnivorous species, not predatory, at a basic bilogical level... we've scavengers in effect.
Humans are just fiercely territorial and fearful of the unknown.... a consequence of emotions I think.
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Originally posted by aldo_14:
We're an omnivorous species,
the ability to eat plant matter is purely vestigual - it just came in handy on occasion, it's by far not a required supplement contrary to some dietians
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Originally posted by Kazan:
the ability to eat plant matter is purely vestigual - it just came in handy on occasion, it's by far not a required supplement contrary to some dietians
Well, we're not meat eaters - our stomachs are not designed to handle raw meat... we are omnivorous - for the simple reason that,as a species, we are weak and feeble compared to most animals both now and during our first years... the reason why we developed technology.
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Originally posted by Kazan:
the ability to eat plant matter is purely vestigual - it just came in handy on occasion, it's by far not a required supplement contrary to some dietians
Pff, vestigial for you, perhaps. But I like my pastas, and salads, and stirfrys, and....
I also eat sushi. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
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Originally posted by aldo_14:
... we've scavengers in effect...
I like the classification given to us in the Matrix: "Humans.... are a disease." (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
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America, stand assured that Israel truly understands what you are going through.
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Originally posted by Shrike:
Pff, vestigial for you, perhaps. But I like my pastas, and salads, and stirfrys, and....
I also eat sushi. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
i never said it was a bad thing.. it's just vestigial - we _Are_ a predatory species
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"Why Climb it?" - "Because it's there."
"God is dead." - Nietzsche
-----------------
FreeSpace 2: The Babylon Project Effects Nerd and Programmer. ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/babylon")
Alliance Productions ("http://alliance.sourceforge.net")
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Guys, I just thought of something.
WTC Towers...
Tower of Babel.
Built tall as a representation of the strength of humanity...
Crushed to show our weakness?
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Originally posted by Setekh:
Guys, I just thought of something.
WTC Towers...
Tower of Babel.
Built tall as a representation of the strength of humanity...
Crushed to show our weakness?
Oh dear ("http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame65.html")
FYI . Petronas Twin Towers ("http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Petronas_Towers.html") in Malasia are the tallest towers in the world to my knowledge so surely if some "god" wanted to destroy a symbol of man's power and kill thousans of his own those would be targeted. Plus They weren't destroyed by a natural phenomena ar something that can be interpreted as an act of "god", they were destroyed by our supposidly fellow humans.
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Originally posted by Shrike:
I also eat sushi. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
Raw fish?!? Argh. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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I've eaten raw fish before...
unfortunately, it wasn't Sushi, but a piece of uncooked haddock that I thought WAS cooked (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
oh, and cut the 1-on-1 arguements before I dust off the hammer... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/devil.gif)
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Temporal Mechanics ("http://www.fs2temp-mech.co.uk")
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Guideline #14 of the HLP Forums: Don't insult an admin. Don't insult anyone, for that matter; insults will get you nowhere but out the door. We will ban you again if you don't listen, and this time not temporarily.
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Setekh, you smell.
Hehe, Joking - and he's right kids, we can take a joke but out-and-out flames aren't going to make us A-1 Happy...
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Originally posted by Thunder:
and he's right kids, we can take a joke but out-and-out flames aren't going to make us A-1 Happy...
If it was me that he was speaking to about "Insulting an Admin" Apologies, that link was not intended as an Insult but rather as an amusing way to state the fact that comparing the Destruction of the Twin Towers to the Tower of Babel was a very Controversial statement. Apologies for any offense Caused.
[This message has been edited by Top Gun (edited 09-20-2001).]
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Hmmm...more rules.
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[email protected] Staff member of
Inferno,
Don't loose
your headz
over it.
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