[karajorma]

I don't know if that includes fanfics or articles on things like Freespace 3/Freespace 3 and Derek Smart.

It doesn't. We can deal with fan fics later. As for the other two, no one is ever going to think Derek Smart is an alien entity who showed up in the game and started wiping out Shivans and Terrans alike with his alpha male field. We don't run the risk of anyone thinking that it's canon to the FS universe.

As for FS3 the same sort of thing applies as long as some damn fool doesn't come along and start adding what would have happened in FS3 (Well apart from the comments by as those are canon to FS3).

If I were to restart this thread I'd ask this question.

Should we allow fan speculation on the FS universe in the wiki which isn't tied to a specific campaign or campaigns?

1) Yes but only on a fan speculation page
2) Yes but only with adequate criticism of any flaws in the speculation.
3) No - Fan speculation should be listed under a campaign which supports it.

I'd then clarify a few things right at the start by pointing out the possible drawbacks I can see with any of those methods.

1) Easy to end up with the appearance that the fan speculation page is an attempt to set up an extended canon
2) Potential of ending up with an edit war.
3) I'll let WMC figure out what the drawback to this one is.

[TopAce]

Derek Smart showing up and mentioning he would make FreeSpace 3 is a real event, it did happen. It is not wrong to mention it, as long as everything about this subject is covered to prevent new members from opening undesired threads.

[Shade]

Maybe one way to get out of this mire of confusion and reciprocal misunderstandings we all seem to be stuck in, would be for those who want to set their opinion straight and beyond any risk of confusion to simply go to the wiki and make a test page (one that isn't linked to from anywhere, of course, and is inaccessible to anyone who doesn't know the title) showcasing how they would prefer the categories and articles to be organized, and then post the page title here so others can offer their opinions. Then perhaps in the end, something will be worked out that everyone can live with. Or at least clarify people's positions on the matter.

In fact, I might just go and do that for my own ideas if noone objects to this use of the wiki within the next 24 hours or so. For anyone who doesn't know, to create a new unlinked page in mediawiki, that is, without using an empty link from another page, simply type the title you want into the address bar after http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/ and then click edit on the empty page it takes you to. If nothing else, such an excercise might at least give people something real to argue other than the boring semantics that the last 3 pages have been all about.

[WMCoolmon]

http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Shivan_Manifesto , removing the big criticisms from the wiki and revising the ones on the page.

3) I'll let WMC figure out what the drawback to this one is.

I already have, I direct you to my previous posts.

[karajorma]

Of course it isn't wrong to mention it. I don't know why anyone even brought it up.

[WMCoolmon]

Of course it isn't wrong to mention it. I don't know why anyone even brought it up.

Well, you don't seem to have any trouble disputing factual articles about fan speculation on Freespace 3. That entire incident lies in that category.

[karajorma]

The whole Derek Smart thing belongs in the Freespace 3 entry. It's nothing to do with fan speculation.

Had Derek Smart posted his plotline for FS3 I'd be as opposed to it going in as anyone elses fan speculation.

[WMCoolmon]

Let's just poll on the Manifesto. It's the only article that's actually in the wiki that people have been calling for the removal of. As it is, it seems like whatever the poll is, we're simply going to have people claiming that an article is part of the poll if they want it out, or an article isn't part of the poll if they want it in.

Edit: But - why is it valid to be in the wiki, by your definition, then? It's not part of a specific campaign. It's not technical documentation. It's not canon.

[WMCoolmon]

Here's another fun something: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,35521.0.html

Very clearly lies under the category of "Fan speculation". This sort of thing is something I can see adding to the wiki, for reference value. However, we have no way of knowing whether or not :V: may have intended any sort of symbolism or just picked things based on "This is cool". It's also on the forums; I don't think it's actually been referenced very much, although it is stickied.

Taht kind of research also seems useful to me if you're writing a story, campaign, or just browsing. It could reveal certain connections between characters, names, and events. I wouldn't have any problem with it being added (even though it's non-canon). Do you disagree with this kind of 'fan speculation' as well?

[karajorma]

Let's just poll on the Manifesto. It's the only article that's actually in the wiki that people have been calling for the removal of. As it is, it seems like whatever the poll is, we're simply going to have people claiming that an article is part of the poll if they want it out, or an article isn't part of the poll if they want it in.

Lets not. My issue is not with the SM. My issue is with the SM looking like it's a generic theory the community accept. As I've said countless times if a campaign wants to adopt the SM then that's their business.

Edit: But - why is it valid to be in the wiki, by your definition, then? It's not part of a specific campaign. It's not technical documentation. It's not canon.

Are we back to this AGAIN!

What mistake can you possibly see a newbie making from Derek Smart being mentioned in the Freespace 3 article? Derek Smart trying to make FS3 is a fact. It's the history of the game along with poor sales of FS2 and the while Interplay/THQ thing with Volition. OF course that stuff should be in the wiki. Hell before the move from GameSpy I ****ing well put it in the wiki.
 What confusion do you think a newbie is going to make about the Freespace universe from having Derek Smart mentioned. Are they going to assume Derek Smart is the captain of the Colossus? Are they going to mistakenly assume that he's Bosch's younger brother?

According to your ridiculous interpretation of what I've said we should rip out the Freespace 1 and 2 entires too. We're right back to you making strawmen again aren't we. Only instead of the SCP one you've come up with another deliberate misinterpretation.

[Skippy]

 Why not ask and stop this useless debate? (or at least useless for me)

[karajorma]

Cause they won't tell us and just smile knowingly (and annoyingly) when asked.

[WMCoolmon]

No, I'm not.

The problem I see is that every time you come up with a definition, something else fits that definition that you think should be in. I've been pretty passive and let you define what's under question here; but you've failed to come up with a definition for what the Shivan Manifesto is that doesn't include another article that you think should stay in. Without that, we're just throwing out the Manifesto because you and aldo and BD don't want it in. To me, it's unacceptable that any three forum members should have total veto power over articles in the wiki, barring some kind of endorsement from Mr.Fury since he's paying for the wiki and so can do pretty much whatever the hell he likes with it.

What I have so far: Non-canon speculation about the FS Universe, that is not tied to a specific campaign, and involves purely fictitious events written by a community member (ie so that symbolism from mythology can be included, although you haven't replied to that). The definition just seems to keep getting narrower and narrower.

If you just want the Manifesto out, just say it, don't come up with all sorts of double-standards to cloud things up.

Edit: Oops, forgot BD.

[Skippy]

If I go on the SM page, there's a big "The following information has not been confirmed by Volition and is therefore not canon for the Freespace universe."
So what's the problem with that page? 

[BlackDove]

It displays information that threatness the minds of the children.

[karajorma]

What I'm against is the presentation of non-canon material on the wiki so that it appears as if it's extended canon. I've been repeating that it's what I'm against right from the very start. I've repeated time and time again that I have no particular beef with the SM. I even said it in the post you've replied to. Did you not even read it before replying? I said it another time earlier today too.
 I've explained time and time again that it's not the SM that is my problem but the way it is presented on the wiki as a fait acompli with no flaws and no criticism allowed. That's also my beef with the articles on Talania, Lupus Nebula and all the other stuff in the non-canon category of the wiki (apart from the user campaigns. They have the right to decide what is canon within their own little sub-universes).

The only person still arguing against me and Aldo is you. So lets not get high and mighty about the number of people trying to decide the fate of the wiki. Furthermore the SM article is only in because you preempted this entire discussion and added it in. So lets not act like it's been there since time began and now two people want to change it. You've been just as guilty of acting like you should have total power over the wiki regardless of the views of the community as you claim we have. I'll remind you that the poll is deadlocked at the moment.

If I go on the SM page, there's a big "The following information has not been confirmed by Volition and is therefore not canon for the Freespace universe."
So what's the problem with that page? 

This is the sort of thing I mean about the wiki needing more clarity. Skippy isn't exactly a newbie here yet due to the fact that he's presumably not been following this discussion he's not certain of what the non-canon warning means. I'm arguing that we try to make the wiki as clear as possible. If you put these non-canon entries under the campaigns then the non-canon warning could be changed to "This article is canon only the the MindGames campaign and should not be taken as an explaination for anything in any other campaign unless explicitly stated." (or something similar but better written.)

[Kie99]

What are we going to do is the voting closes at 50/50?

[WeatherOp]

Why not just make two wiki's if possible, the FS Wiki for Canon stuff and the HLP FS Wiki or FSC Wiki for stuff that isn't. The HLP Wiki could be used to log stuff about the FS Community, campaigns, and fanfics, while keeping it seperate of the Canon stuff.

It could also catain a big message saying not canon at the top of the main page.

[Goober5000]

FYI, karajorma, I'm entirely on WMC's side here, and I sympathize with his arguments.  The boundary of what belongs and what doesn't belong seems to keep getting moved.  I'd be arguing as strenuously as WMC here if I wasn't so busy IRL.

[karajorma]

Boundries aren't being moved. As I said before what this has always been about is making sure that non-canon information on the wiki isn't confused for extended canon info. I've suggested different ways of achieving that but the end goal has always been the same.