Off-Topic Discussion > General Discussion
Picard
Buckshee Rounds:
It's down to the feel of the film too. Even Wrath of Khan had one or two silly plot elements (Ceti Alpha V being Ceti Alpha VI comes to mind), but you can suspend your disbelief because it's a brilliant film. It's a swashbuckling high seas adventure, but in space. First Contact tries to ape a lot of that, somewhat unsuccessfully, and comes off as a dumb albeit very enjoyable action film. The TNG films are otherwise mostly pish.
And I do agree the franchise has been in a decline ever since. Enterprise ruined much of the canon, but it also tried very hard at times to be faithful and congruent, where I feel Discovery really hasn't been. It's also just downright unwatchable at times and I really worry about having the same staff working on ST: Picard.
Ultimately it doesn't matter though, as far as I see it, Star Trek has been tarnished for all time in much the same way Star Wars was ruined by the prequels. They'll never go away and they can never be fixed. Ever. It's like finding out your best friend was actually eating babies for as long as you've known them. So **** it, if it's good then that's good and if it's not then it doesn't matter because it's wrecked anyway and I'm past caring any more.
Luis Dias:
Ok, even I will never say that Generations is the peak TNG movie. Let's say you found my limits there.
Regarding tightness in FC, the whole story is bull****. The Borg want to invade Earth, but then they actually want to go back in time to invade Earth when there's no Federation, but then they actually want to stop First Contact, but then what the queen had in mind was actually to persuade Data to join the ranks. Those are four different plots and villain intents, they are not interchangeable.
If you want to invade Earth you go with multiple cubes, not one.
If you want to go back in time and invade Earth when it's vulnerable, do so far away from any nagging starfleet ship that may enter your slipstream.
If you want to stop First Contact, you... don't need to. If you invade Earth ten years before that, there is no First Contact.
If you wanted Data to join the ranks, weren't there better ways to do so?
Notice, I haven't touched the whole Queen debacle.
karajorma:
To be fair
--- Quote ---If you want to invade Earth you go with multiple cubes, not one.
--- End quote ---
Last time they tried they only sent one cube and they damn near succeeded. And this time they still come pretty damn close.
--- Quote ---If you want to go back in time and invade Earth when it's vulnerable, do so far away from any nagging starfleet ship that may enter your slipstream.
--- End quote ---
Going back in time appears to be a backup plan they tried when plan A failed. Given that the other choice was to be destroyed, it's not a bad plan. Once again, it almost succeeded.
As for the rest of it, yeah, I tend to agree.
Luis Dias:
It's not that you cannot argue around every instance of the plot, which I guess you can to a point, it's the constant barrage of unjustified turns akin to children's playful narratives "I'm gonna destroy you with this giant robot! Ahah you wished, my powerful gun smashes it to pieces! Oh yeah? Surprise I have a hidden sphere I pulled from the robot's ass! Oh yeah? my ship is gonna football it! Surprise my sphere TRAVELS THROUGH TIME ahahah you didn't see that comin! Oh yeah? My ship will follow you and blow you to pieces! Oh yeah?
By the time they change their plans by the fifth or sixth time, I've already checked out from the movie.
The E:
--- Quote from: Luis Dias on June 04, 2019, 04:28:22 am ---Regarding tightness in FC, the whole story is bull****. The Borg want to invade Earth, but then they actually want to go back in time to invade Earth when there's no Federation, but then they actually want to stop First Contact, but then what the queen had in mind was actually to persuade Data to join the ranks. Those are four different plots and villain intents, they are not interchangeable.
--- End quote ---
... A villain having having multiple plans and approaches is a problem now?
I'm sorry, I really can't wrap my head around this: If any of those plans interfered with each other, or if the script had forgotten about any of them at any point, then you might have a point, but it doesn't.
--- Quote ---If you want to go back in time and invade Earth when it's vulnerable, do so far away from any nagging starfleet ship that may enter your slipstream.
If you want to stop First Contact, you... don't need to. If you invade Earth ten years before that, there is no First Contact.
If you wanted Data to join the ranks, weren't there better ways to do so?
--- End quote ---
Oh no, the villains' plan has a weakness, what a glaring issue!
I mean, if you're arguing on that level, pretty much any story where villains are thwarted is nonsense and bad. Why doesn't Obadiah Stane just shoot Tony Stark, or hire a thug to do that?
Why doesn't Khan just ram the Reliant into the Enterprise to disable her, then kill Kirk in one-on-one combat?
Why doesn't the Empire make sure the reactor room of the second Death Star is thoroughly shielded and armored first?
--- Quote from: Luis Dias on June 04, 2019, 06:26:46 am ---It's not that you cannot argue around every instance of the plot, which I guess you can to a point, it's the constant barrage of unjustified turns akin to children's playful narratives "I'm gonna destroy you with this giant robot! Ahah you wished, my powerful gun smashes it to pieces! Oh yeah? Surprise I have a hidden sphere I pulled from the robot's ass! Oh yeah? my ship is gonna football it! Surprise my sphere TRAVELS THROUGH TIME ahahah you didn't see that comin! Oh yeah? My ship will follow you and blow you to pieces! Oh yeah?
By the time they change their plans by the fifth or sixth time, I've already checked out from the movie.
--- End quote ---
...
Yeah, no, I don't see a single instance of an "unjustified turn" in this movie. Or, for that matter, any real change of plans.
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