Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: TopAce on May 13, 2003, 01:01:02 pm
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Any ideas(or pictures) how do the Ancients look like?
Or average height, or any data about their physical properties?
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AFAIK absolutely nothing is known about that.
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No god there isn't any projects working with the story of the Ancients.
Or it is classified level Zeta, too :)
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I think there's a ancient ship pack out there somewhere.
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Inferno. Ancients 2 Demo.
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I'd guess they were fluid life-forms from what i've experienced in the FS storyline.
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fluid life froms? :wtf:
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There is nothing official known about the Ancients themselves but we do have a sample of their general ship design scheme from the Knossos.
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But I am curious about YOUR IDEAS, there are many unofficial things around here(hundreds of ships, unofficial programs like PCS, ModelView etc.) Why cannot you tell your imaginations?
I think they were not so advanced, because they couldn't discover life nor on Earth, nor on Vasuda. Eight thousand years before the Great War, there were already life on Sol, I think it is the time of Homo Erectus. They could have used the materials of our home to strenghten their economy, and indrusty. They could have made it only if they had colonized our world, and this is a reason for the Shivans to come and kill.
Same in the case of Vasuda, in addition, it is quite close to Altair 4.
or
1. They expanded their civ eastwards to Altair(unexplored for the GTVA)
2. Shivans left the life on Earth and Vasuda intact, so they could seek after another challenge several thousand years after.(This is probably the least possible.)
3. Ancients had just begun expanding when the Shivans attacked.
Write something like this about your ideas.
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I disagree. Somewhere in FS, or 2, they say that their empire was far greater than us. And they had the Knossos technology!
And couldn't it have been that the Ancients were the "all-powerful race" in the HoL vasudan legends, or derived of them?
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Originally posted by TopAce
But I am curious about YOUR IDEAS, there are many unofficial things around here(hundreds of ships, unofficial programs like PCS, ModelView etc.) Why cannot you tell your imaginations?
I think they were not so advanced, because they couldn't discover life nor on Earth, nor on Vasuda. Eight thousand years before the Great War, there were already life on Sol, I think it is the time of Homo Erectus. They could have used the materials of our home to strenghten their economy, and indrusty. They could have made it only if they had colonized our world, and this is a reason for the Shivans to come and kill.
Same in the case of Vasuda, in addition, it is quite close to Altair 4.
or
1. They expanded their civ eastwards to Altair(unexplored for the GTVA)
2. Shivans left the life on Earth and Vasuda intact, so they could seek after another challenge several thousand years after.(This is probably the least possible.)
3. Ancients had just begun expanding when the Shivans attacked.
Write something like this about your ideas.
We know (or at least suspect) that the Ancients screwed around with the Vasudans, accelerating the evolution or something, allowing them to survive their harsh environment (though I'll admit that I can't ecall if this is canon or not) Note however, that the Ancients hadn't been in subspace very long when the Shivans attacked (The Ancients monologues in FS1 seem to make that clear) so not finding Earth, which is a fair way off the Ancients space, seems reasonable.
Also, 8000 years ago from was around about 6000BC - later if you take it from FS1s 2335 - now I'm no Anthropologist, but that Homo Erectus died out around 400 000 BC - hell, Catal Huyuk was established over 9000 years ago - we were well past Homo erectus then.
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
Also, 8000 years ago from was around about 6000BC - later if you take it from FS1s 2335 - now I'm no Anthropologist, but that Homo Erectus died out around 400 000 BC - hell, Catal Huyuk was established over 9000 years ago - we were well past Homo erectus then.
Thanks for the history lesson, I am getting more intelligent every day.
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6000BC. Well wasn't Ancient Egypt just starting up?
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Originally posted by Shiva-jin Buu
....And they had the Knossos technology!
At Gamma Draconis, which means they could travel enough far to discover at least Vasuda. Let's suppose they had no knowledge about the existance of Sol.
If you have a look at the FS2 Database/Intelligence/Ancients you can read there were additional findings in some systems close to Vasuda(for example Deneb)
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Maybe they did find Earth and Vasuda, and the life on them, but decided to leave well alone. They might have had some sort of Prime Directive, like the Federation.
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Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB
6000BC. Well wasn't Ancient Egypt just starting up?
Egypt began its rise sometime between 5000BC and 3000BC(As I know)
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Ahh, well there you are.
But there would have been pre-Egyptian civilisations, then.
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Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB
Ahh, well there you are.
But there would have been pre-Egyptian civilisations, then.
Vasudans. They live in the desert too. :D
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Indeed.
Anyone know when Vasudan civilisation started? I believe it to much older that Earth.
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Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB
Indeed.
Anyone know when Vasudan civilisation started? I believe it to much older that Earth.
Their ships were 'less modern' than Terran as we saw in FS1. The PVF Anubis is the best fighter ever! No afterburner, has two lasers, it is a wonder that ship didn't fall apart while doing a maneuver. Or the first four missions have had to be easy.
As I estimate, the Vasudans develop slowerly than the Terrans, and this can be a reason why is 'an older cvilization' less modern than a 'younger civilization'
But I know this is of the reason to make the first some missions easy.
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if anything the Vasudans developed faster. They had a lot more incentive to blast off of their rock than we did.
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If I remember correctly, the Vasudan Empire has existed for 10,000 years. How much of that was spent as a space faring civilization is something else all together.
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Originally posted by Shiva-jin Buu
I disagree. Somewhere in FS, or 2, they say that their empire was far greater than us. And they had the Knossos technology!
And couldn't it have been that the Ancients were the "all-powerful race" in the HoL vasudan legends, or derived of them?
I think the shivans were the all powerful destroyers of vasudan legend but of course that assumes that the vasudan legends had any validity. Almost every religion has a destroyer/battle to end all battles myth so that might also be all the vasudan myth was.
After all even with the help of the HOL the shivans still didn't manage to destroy everything (I bet they must have felt real stupid about that one when the Great War ended :lol: )
As for the ancients they must have been at least as advanced as the GTVA because they managed to build technology the GTVA didn't have (i.e the knossos portals). They also managed to enslave several other races before the met the shivans (which does make you wonder what ever became of them?)
They may have discovered Terra and Vasuda but it's also possible that the necessary jump nodes weren't stable at the time. Or simply that the ancients saw no reason for exploiting those systems.
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On the one hand, the Vasudan civilisation had existed for 10 000 years, as Eishtmo said. On the other, we are told that they had to enter space a bit early due to the scarcity of resources on their planet. These two facts are made compatible by the third fact that the Vasudans seem much less divisive and warlike than Terrans: "The Vasudans are a civilization of philosophers, artists, and scholars... To the Terran outsider, Vasudan society appears convoluted and ritualistic. The Vasudans themselves may seem arrogant, treacherous, and superstitious. On the other hand, Vasudans tend to view Terrans as aggressive, paranoid, and stupid. " Warfare drives much of our techological innovation and consumes great amounts of resources, so presumably the less warlike Vasudans would not have developed the technology as quickly, nor have needed to. Of course, it must also be said that when the need arose (i.e. they entered into war with the Terrans, and then the Shivans) they developed their technology at an alarming rate!
As for the Ancients, who says their homeworld was within GTVA space? It may be that GTVA space was on the edges of thier empire, and they felt no especial need to colonise yet, so didn't bother exterminating and/or subjugating the Terrans and Vasudans. From the Ancient monologues in FS1, it sounds more like they engaged in subduing races who could offer them some threat (i.e. other spacefarers) than that they were concerned with subjugating aliens at the beginning of deveoping civilisation.
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Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB
Maybe they did find Earth and Vasuda, and the life on them, but decided to leave well alone. They might have had some sort of Prime Directive, like the Federation.
Not likely, in the monologues we hear how the empire expanded and crushed whatever life it encountered.
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here is a relevant piece from the FS reference bible:
It is suspected that the Vasudans may have actually been visited long ago in their past by another race, simply called “the Ancients”. Not much is known about this race, but from archaeological digs, it seems that they originated from a system nearby to Vasuda Prime. Since it is unlikely that Vasuda Prime could have sustained a primitive race for long enough to develop space travel, it is not unfeasible that “the Ancients” may have helped Vasudan culture develop enough to allow them to survive.
However, all evidence of “the Ancients” is mysteriously cut off after a certain point in time, leading scientists to believe there was some kind of cataclysm which befell their culture. Other more religious groups claim that they were destroyed by a powerful cleansing force, and that the same would happen to the Vasudans when they became too prideful. They claim that the ancients left a prophecy detailing the destruction of themselves, and the subsequent destruction of the Vasudans. Most modern Vasudans have abandoned this mythos, and believe that “the Ancients” were just another spacefaring race that stayed in the area for awhile, then moved on to more fertile systems.
Any ideas on what exactly the "system nearby" is? I think I vaguely remember it being said somewhere that Altair itself was their homeworld but I'm not sure at all about that.
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Originally posted by TopAce
No god there isn't any projects working with the story of the Ancients.
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/images/inferno-staff.gif)
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Yeap.....Never seen the Ancients ship pack?
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That word "the". It gives me the 'orn.
:runs:
Were the ancients conquerors? I can't reme,ber what was said in the Ancients cutscenes.
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Yea, they stomped on quite a few races before the shivans got 'em. At the end they figure they got what they deserved.
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Damn right.
'Tis like what happened with the British Empire, then. Or indeed the French or Spanish Empires.
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Originally posted by CP5670
Any ideas on what exactly the "system nearby" is? I think I vaguely remember it being said somewhere that Altair itself was their homeworld but I'm not sure at all about that.
I think, and this is gleamed from the cutscenes, that the Ancients homeworld was taken out long before the rest of the species was vaped. It would follow the Shivan's pattern in FS1, take out the homeworlds rapidly, clean up afterwards. That would mean that Altair was NOT the Ancient homeworld, but likely a far out colony. The last outpost if you will.
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It makes sense that the Ancients would leave information vital on defeating the Lucifer someplace the Vasudans would find it.
Since the Ancients commented on how they defeated or annihilated lesser species, it's possible that the Vasudans were in space and possibly had subspace technology in time to have some interaction with the Ancients and they possibly inherited some of their empire when the Ancients were wiped out.
Subspace Technology, of cource, being the deciding factor between whether the species was wiped out or interacted with. In their way the Ancients are as much a "Great Destroyer" as the Shivans but in reverse.
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err, IIRC, the Ancients talked about how they were beat back to their homeworld and killed.
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Originally posted by Liberator
Since the Ancients commented on how they defeated or annihilated lesser species, it's possible that the Vasudans were in space and possibly had subspace technology in time to have some interaction with the Ancients and they possibly inherited some of their empire when the Ancients were wiped out.
The ancients were destroyed, what, 8000 yrs ago? They may have had some contact with very ancient zogs (this is where I think the destroyer myth came from), but I don't think they had any technology to speak of.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
err, IIRC, the Ancients talked about how they were beat back to their homeworld and killed.
Actually, reread it.
And we retreated to our home system.
Abandoned our empire.
We believed at home we would be safe
That's where you're reading. Yet this follows:
And our world is gone
Next scene
There are few of us left. We know we will soon be gone.
And so we can see our fate as others will see it.
That seems to indicate that there were others outside of the homeworld. This is actually pretty reasonable. Look at what the Shivans did to the Vasudans and were trying to do to the Terrans, take out the homeworld in one nasty blast, then clean up the rest. The survivors of the assualt on the Ancient homeworld were probably on on the homeworld in the first place, and then the Shivans came.
Altair could still be their homeworld, but I'm inclined to think otherwise.
I seriously doubt the Vasudans had subspace tech 8000+ years ago. Vasudans and Terrans are said to be at the same tech level, so if the Zods had subspace 8000 years prior it was either completely lost (not impossible, but unlikely) or they would have been so advanced compared to the Terrans that such a comment could never have been made. At a minimum, the Vasudans discovered subspace at about the same time as the Terrans, probably earlier, but not by more than a decade or two.
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I stand corrected.
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The Vasudans are Philosophers, Poets and Scientists first and Warriors second.
They remind me of what little I've read about the samurai in Japan, they were warrior/poets who when not embroiled in a war or some form of swordplay were more comfortable in intellectual pursuits.
It's possible that, given the above and what we know about Vasudan governance, that they have had subspace tech for a long time. Empires and 10,000 Year reigns don't happen in a few centuries, they take time to develop.
When Vasudans act it is deliberate and as a race.
Humans in contrast, are short-fused, short-sighted, and chaotic. Rallying as a race only in the direst of circumstances.
or more simply:
Humans explode.
Vasudans smolder erupting in a blaze every few centuries.
Granted the thought of them have subspace 8000 years in the past is ludicrous. That figure is taken from the age of the Knossos. But we don't have accurate historical records much before 2500 years ago, with only the Bible and a few other texts describing events from those times. We have little or no idea what happened civilization-wise past about 7500 years ago. We have the Atlantis stories which have led some archaeological theorists to put forward the idea that maybe we're(America and the rest of Western Civilizaton) not the first technological civilization to inhabit the Earth.
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Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB
Damn right.
'Tis like what happened with the British Empire, then. Or indeed the French or Spanish Empires.
So who stamps on the Shivans..........?
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Some British colony that then goes on the dominate the world economically, politically and militarily.
Can you see what I'm getting at?:p
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Originally posted by Liberator
When Vasudans act it is deliberate and as a race.
What about the HOL? Or the vasudan Adm. (can't remember name) that disobeyed orders and impulsively attacked the Iceni conyoy?
NOTHING STOPS THE SHIVANS!!!
:mad2:
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I'm not too sure about some of the remarks about Vasudan politics. This is some more stuff from the reference bible:
They were similar to humans in many ways. Unfortunately, those similarities included irrational fear, and the willingness to sacrifice lives over politics.
That would seem to suggest that they had some of the same sort of political history as terrans.
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I mean generally.
Vasudans IMO tend to think things over longer than Terrans.
I think the Vasudans bow before a powerful leader faster and more completely than Terrans. The HOL and the Admiral What'shisface incident are examples of this. The HOL really couldn't have happened with Terrans.
Before you bring up the NTF, Bosch preyed on the general distrust of Command among the ranks and the personal loyalty he had built up over the course of his command. He had obviously been planning the rebellion for some time and had operatives in key positions before he acted.
The HOL on the other hand was religious cult that folded back into general Vasudan society after the leader(s) were dealt with.
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Originally posted by Liberator
Granted the thought of them have subspace 8000 years in the past is ludicrous. That figure is taken from the age of the Knossos. But we don't have accurate historical records much before 2500 years ago, with only the Bible and a few other texts describing events from those times. We have little or no idea what happened civilization-wise past about 7500 years ago. We have the Atlantis stories which have led some archaeological theorists to put forward the idea that maybe we're(America and the rest of Western Civilizaton) not the first technological civilization to inhabit the Earth.
I really think you should go back and study your ancient history. First off all, we have written records from civilizations like Sumer, Babylon and Egypt (All those pretty pictures on the walls... not just decorations you know), all civilizations thousands of years old. And these are not so revised and blantantly religiously or politically coloured as the Bible.
Secondly, Atlantis is almost entirely a myth, and something that is sadly perpetuated and enhanced upon by modern filmmakers and writers. Atlantiswas almost certainly based on the Isle of Thira, which was almost entirely destroyed by a Volcanic explosion about 3500 years ago (much less than your 7500 figure). In the sixties, there were some digs in the area that uncovered evidence of a rich and powerfuil civilization similar to what Plato described. However, neither Plato nor the archaeologists on Thira ever suggested a civilization that could truly equal (or even com particularly close to equalling) what we have today.
Note also that the reason we don;t have much information about civilizations before 5500 BC is because there effectively weren't any civilizations before then that left written records, because writing hadn't yet been invented. In addition, civilization as we know it didn't exist until about 10000 years ago with Catal Huyuk (which kept no written records, obviously).
Oh, and err - Bosch was preying more on old racial hatreds and Terran jealousy about the Vasudans rapid recovery from the Great War - personal Loyalties would only have existed in his own Fleet. Though yes, he had been planning the rebellion for a long time - his final entry and the ETAK command briefing seem to make that clear.
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BTW Thanks to everyone who has posted in this topic, some of my previous speculation is now revised but will not be released for reasons of a hidden agenda...
Fascinating speculation...:cool:
Firstly what do the cutscenes really imply... Freespace: The Great War really does have a knack for poetic incoherence. This makes interpreting the cutscene more mind boggling.
One thing I do entirely believe is that the Ancients did not learn subspace science on their own or through isolated evolution but rather discovered it through exploration off-planet: RUINS
Has anyone also considered the Vasudans could be in some way related to the Ancients - offspring from an 'EVENT' of some sort...
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Anyone notice the last cutscene (the monologue bit) in FS1 takes place in a binary system? Bit silly, that.
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Never noticed that aldo, I'll have to look sometime.
I think Vasudan history is similar to ours, but the division are less politcal and more religious. In fact, I think that most of the conflicts the Vasudans had were between the relativily secular Imperial government and the religious screwballs. It probably helps to explain Vasudan weapon choices (high firing, low power) because they usually fight hoards of lightly armed foes willing to die (funny, sounds a lot like Shivans, except for the lightly armed part).
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Back to the Vasudans, I think they are rather warriors than poets. Several reasons lead me to that belief, for example the 'You fight like a Vasudan' text of the Vasudan persona. Read the FS1, and 2 Species database to have a clearer view of my point.
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Originally posted by TopAce
Thanks for the history lesson, I am getting more intelligent every day.
prehistory actually :p
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Warriors yes, soliders no. The Vasudan fights on his faith, i agree completly with the jap anology, but you got the explanation wrong. They fight on emotion rather than the (generally) more political and calculating terran grunts.
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Do we hear anywhere in the cutscenes about them enslaving other races?
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They mention that they subdued every single race they came across until they met the shivans.
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That could just mean they treated them lower than themselves
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That doesn't sound like the meaning of the word subdue to me.
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subdue.. to make harmless.. could involve slavery.
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"...and we subdued it or crushed it."
Crush as in destroy, subdue as in enslave.
--Hippo
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Originally posted by TopAce
No god there isn't any projects working with the story of the Ancients.
Or it is classified level Zeta, too :)
Then it wouldn't be classified very highly. Here are the first eight letters of the Greek alphabet:
Alpha
Beta
Gamma
Delta
Epsilon
Zeta
Eta
Theta
Zeta is the sixth letter of the Greek alphabet. The last letter is Omega, so the highest possible classification would be level Omega.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Zeta is the sixth letter of the Greek alphabet. The last letter is Omega, so the highest possible classification would be level Omega.
You sure of that? I've never been able to figure out in which direction the classification went :)
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They said that the results of the attempts to rebuld the Hades were classified level Omega and the Mara's specs at level Psi. Why would the specs of a Shivan fighter be more classified than the blueprints for a superdestroyer?
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Any information about the Ancients have been classified, because the authors wanted to stop the description of the Ancients this way. There is no other 'classified' information about the Ancients.
Back to the Slavery and the Ancients, I always imagined the Ancients to be a peaceful race. I don't know what leads me to this belief, but it is sure, that they didn't have the same enemy like the Terrans had in 2335. The only difference would be some technologies(I cannot imagine an SF Scorpion fighting 3000 years before the Great War) and the Shivans had no Ai flying their ships.
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:wtf:
The Ancients killed things. This was more or less described in the Ancient Monolouges when they were talking about how they owned everything that came along untill they met the Shivans and got their sorry ass handed to them.
Doesn't sound too peaceful to me.
Woolies Quote of Topace: You've not heard of inferno then? :wtf:
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
They said that the results of the attempts to rebuld the Hades were classified level Omega and the Mara's specs at level Psi. Why would the specs of a Shivan fighter be more classified than the blueprints for a superdestroyer?
When do they say that about attempts to rebuild the Hades?
See my problem is while that makes sense it seems odd to me that data on the mara is so highly classified. Psi is only one step below Omega. If the scale runs the other way the data about the mara is barely a secret at all and that makes a little more sense cause otherwise every single scientist working on preparing the mara for "Lion's Den" must have clearance only one level lower than the security council of the GTVA (Who I'm assuming all have Omega level clearance if the scale works in the direction you've just said).
The only other mention of a classification level I can remember is the one about the Colossus (which was level rho). Now it seemed strange to me that the building of the colossus is less of a secret than the stuff about the mara.
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Maybe :V: just picked cool sounding Greek letters, without thinking up an actual system of classification levels.. it happens in games.
This knowledge has led to a good story for a campaign I am working on. Excellent. ;7
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On the topic of the Mara, that tech description appears to have been written just after the Vigilant incident, where the fighter had been encountered for the first time. Its stats would probably have been released soon after but I guess they forgot to update the tech entry. :D The greek letter scale is indeed running in the downward direction with omega probably being the highest level of secrecy, which can be seen from the shivan comm node entry.
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I don't know how long TopAce has spent with the Fs Community or Game, but I agree with him...I would say in my opinion its more of an instinct that the Ancients were a peaceful race and perhaps some were rogue...and thats what drove the Shivans to eliminate them..remember the cutscenes in Fs1 were broad, & to comprehend them as they were to be ::V:: I think would have to answer to a few questions..
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I think your opinion is based on what little image we have of the Ancients - and it is er....Greekish.
On the other hand I have a lot better explanation - they were like the Romans.
Very advanced, enlightened; but meanwhile firecre and dominating, enslaving the whole "barbarian" world - or destroying it.
So they could be noble and high, as well as brutal and opressing!
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Wouldn't it be more likely to say that the Shivans were Roman, yet of course we know as much about the Ancients as we know about the Shivans but I would assume one is good one is bad or the story wouldn't exist...
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Heres another thing for phlisophy.. Lets use us Humans for example if we were to show the general popluation of the planet as being good and then a rogue like AL-Quaida..of course this would mean that if there were some cosmic destroyers out there trying to cleanse the universe of war would they not take out all humanity instead of only just wiping out the rogue enemy. Just like the Shivans took out Vasuda - in some context that was wrong because killing innocent 'civilians' who may have nothing to do with the war die. Yet it was what the Shivans done. So it could be all possible that the Ancients could have had a massive rogue power that dominated for some time until GOOD like always or most of the time prevail...
this is what I believe and unless a better example that somehow interest me nothing is gonna change my mind...well perhaps the moderation of this post into glyphs
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What I always liked about Freespace was its lack of polarising.
Shivans weren't portrayed as evil or negative.
They were mysterious, unexplainable - in other words simply alien.
The same goes for Vasudans.
If you think about it the Vasudan-Human war was just as bloody as the great wa, yet you don't speak of evil Vasudans ect.
What I think is part of you problem is what Henry Kissinger wrote in his book: History of Diplomacy.
The USA unlike other states does no condone the unethical politics a country has to pursue for its own sake.
This dates back to Wilson - who wanted a "fair" peace after WWI - the UN is part of his legacy. He could do so, since America was pritty much an isolated mighty empire, while in Europe only the opposing wills and forces of different countries maintained a balance of power, ergo peace. England was in fact bent on keeping that balance for its power could exist only in a similar environment.
Back to the topic:
To put it blunt, Americans expect the same ethics from a counrty as from a person.
This creates a profound situation, like in WWII Germany could be easly dubbed evil and deformed - as the Holocaust would be a very good legitimation - , but later in the cold war, America herself was in crisis, because its power was opposed by the USSR's might.
So in order to be hostile and stand up against it, the communists had to be portrayed as evil, because the general ethic demanded it.
Even Americans were charged and even sentenced to death, in a eearly similar manner to the communists' methods for their opposition of this general belief, since then they must have been communist spys, advocates of devil...ect.ect.
If you watch closely the same has been done with Iraq.
However until it was necessary to strike - Saddam became to unreliable - America simply put up with him, as a not too bad fellow...one who killed around a million people in his own counrty!!
Now, please don't blame me, for I'm not blaming America, I only try to put a spotlight on a certain character of their internatinal policy that would be strange for people in Europe.
Personally I do agree with invading Iraq, however I don't agree with its legitimation.
Politics aside, now I see the same has been done to the Shivans, while the legacy of the T-V War, or the Unification War are left in a mist, since it's not relevant anymore.
I think we don't have to follow that pattern, since politics in FS were pretty much European type, but with a strong American legitimation to the actions of GTA and later GTVA - which indeed turns out to be hardly fail-safe, like in the case of the GTI who wanted to save humanity no matter what.
Bosch is an entierly different person in viewed in such manner...someone who was willing to sacrifice the alliance for another.
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Originally posted by Flaser
I think your opinion is based on what little image we have of the Ancients - and it is er....Greekish.
On the other hand I have a lot better explanation - they were like the Romans.
Very advanced, enlightened; but meanwhile firecre and dominating, enslaving the whole "barbarian" world - or destroying it.
So they could be noble and high, as well as brutal and opressing!
This fits well with the cutscenes.
Originally posted by Max
Wouldn't it be more likely to say that the Shivans were Roman...
Originally posted by Max
*Argument that maybe the Shivans have both good and evil motivations*
Originally posted by Flaser
What I always liked about Freespace was its lack of polarising.
Shivans weren't portrayed as evil or negative.
They were mysterious, unexplainable - in other words simply alien.
*bunch of political stuff*...Politics aside, now I see the same has been done to the Shivans
I think all of the above are rabbit-trail arguments. To understand who and what the Shivans are, we would do well to consider what Volition was trying to tell us when they picked the name Shiva (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/s/shiva.html)n to begin with.
All this talk about politics and/or retribution and/or "civilised barbarianism" is completely foreign to V's conception of the the Shivans. They are the Destroyers. (As a side effect, the Terran and Vasudan civlisations were able to arise where the Ancients had been before, of course, but nevertheless, the Shivans are the Destroyers.) They are not comparable to human political situations the way the Ancients and Vasudans are. V wrote the Ancients and Vasudans such that they are like us and comparable with us. V intentionally left the Shivans unlike us and incomparable to us. Thus, trying to discuss them in terms of our human politics "doesn't fit" with V's Shivans.
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
This fits well with the cutscenes.
I think all of the above are rabbit-trail arguments. To understand who and what the Shivans are, we would do well to consider what Volition was trying to tell us when they picked the name Shiva (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/s/shiva.html)n to begin with.
All this talk about politics and/or retribution and/or "civilised barbarianism" is completely foreign to V's conception of the the Shivans. They are the Destroyers. (As a side effect, the Terran and Vasudan civlisations were able to arise where the Ancients had been before, of course, but nevertheless, the Shivans are the Destroyers.) They are not comparable to human political situations the way the Ancients and Vasudans are. V wrote the Ancients and Vasudans such that they are like us and comparable with us. V intentionally left the Shivans unlike us and incomparable to us. Thus, trying to discuss them in terms of our human politics "doesn't fit" with V's Shivans.
Hi, um, I'm... new here so... um...
While Shiva possesses the capability to destroy, the Hindi view her with respect with both a proper role in life and "regenerative" properties. It is hard to typify Shiva as some sort of great evil or a devil-figure in the world specifically because although death and destruction have grizzly images in our psyche, Shiva is merely carrying out a critical aspect in life.
While the Ancients had the initial nomenclature of the Shivans as the "Destroyers," the monologues in Freespace 1 articulated the Shivans more as a tool or mechanism in the universe, rather than a malignant force. And as history has shown, it is too easy to give something a misnomer only to have society better understand it later (Native Americans, Starfish, etc...)
I don't think it would really matter too much that the Shivans are extraterrestrial in terms of Flaser's explanation of socio-political relations. The fact that Shivans are so mysterious might even help augment his point. While we aren't given a particularly introspective viewpoint on Vasudan and Terran social perspectives, I think we can all agree that GTVA pilots could at least call the Shivans "destroyers." We didn't have a situation where the GTVA was impelling emotions with phrases like "They want to take away our way of life" or "They hate us for what we are." The Shivans were simply destroyers that had no ugly characterizations to latch onto other than the fact that they wanted to annihilate each race.
(Edited once because I misspelled Flaser's name)
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Originally posted by Garfield3d
Hi, um, I'm... new here so... um...
While Shiva possesses the capability to destroy, the Hindi view her with respect with both a proper role in life and "regenerative" properties. It is hard to typify Shiva as some sort of great evil or a devil-figure in the world specifically because although death and destruction have grizzly images in our psyche, Shiva is merely carrying out a critical aspect in life.
While the Ancients had the initial nomenclature of the Shivans as the "Destroyers," the monologues in Freespace 1 articulated the Shivans more as a tool or mechanism in the universe, rather than a malignant force. And as history has shown, it is too easy to give something a misnomer only to have society better understand it later (Native Americans, Starfish, etc...)
I don't think it would really matter too much that the Shivans are extraterrestrial in terms of Flaser's explanation of socio-political relations. The fact that Shivans are so mysterious might even help augment his point. While we aren't given a particularly introspective viewpoint on Vasudan and Terran social perspectives, I think we can all agree that GTVA pilots could at least call the Shivans "destroyers." We didn't have a situation where the GTVA was impelling emotions with phrases like "They want to take away our way of life" or "They hate us for what we are." The Shivans were simply destroyers that had no ugly characterizations to latch onto other than the fact that they wanted to annihilate each race.
(Edited once because I misspelled Flaser's name)
(http://members.cox.net/~wmcoolmon/images/welcome.gif)
Exits are to the sides and rear. Personal flamethrowers are located beneath your seat in case of emergency or naughty disposition. If you run into any Shivans while crawling through the ductwork, it's probably just Carl. Give him your lunch, back away slowly, and you'll be fine.
Anyway, a few points :): 1) Shiva is actually male; 2) Hindi is a language, not a people group; 3) generalisations about how Hindus relate to Shiva are difficult to make, since "Hinduism" is actually a variety of religions; 4) Volition's take on this issue, emphasising the destructive aspect and leaving the regenerative aspect as a side effect, was all I was talking about; 5) otherwise, we are actually agreed in discussion of Shiva; 6) my point about Flaser's politics-oriented discussion of the Shivans is that trying to find such explanations for them runs counter to everything that Volition was trying to do with them---I am talking about the entire literary creation, not merely what goes on inside this imagined universe. The motivations of the Shivans cannot be explained to us as players, not because the Shivans can't have any within the imagined universe, but because to do so would twist and distort V's creation away from what they intended.
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What I always liked about Freespace was its lack of polarising.
Shivans weren't portrayed as evil or negative.
They were mysterious, unexplainable - in other words simply alien.
Oooowww... yeah, the argument that the Shivans are just "preparing" the Vasudans and Terrans for something yet to come! I'd like to see a campaign about that...
hmmmm... :drevil:
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Prepare...no I don't think so.
Actually I have an idea that explains somewhat the Shivan behaviour - although I posted it for n-times, maybe someone will pick it up, or at least argue.
Subspace is a paralel universe with our own.
Accourding to loop-theory all the elementary particles are present in 10 dimensions, 4 of which are the usual space-time we experience, the rest 6 are folded up in tiny loops, that have very little effect on the usual life.
Subspace is when those paralel dimensions form a space where travel can be achieved, however, most object don't have their proportions extending among those dimensions - so they have to "turn into" subspace.
For doing that subspace has tobe aligned with normal space - the warp in other words.
Gravity already bends subspace and therefore makes the whole process easier - this is the reason why intra-system jumps are easier, while inter-system jumps are so demanding, this also explains why are we always near a planet or nebula.
Nodes are places in space where the gravital connection created a tunnel between the two subspace spheres that surrounds the stars or other objects with great mass.
However subspace can be just as easly shattered if bended the wrong way.
The problem is that any vessel passing through subspace ends up polluting it - which is risky.
Therefore humans and Vasudans are risking the existence of subspace - that's why Shivan engines glow red, they are really low-emission.
Anyone entering subspace puts a whole area of subspace in danger, since the effect can spread through entire systems, therefore the Shivans limit the use of subspace to themselves as much as possible.
They hunted down the Ancients when they started using subspace.
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OR... you could see that Shivans are just the bad guys in a game :p
Anyway, I don't like the idea of Shivans being from another dimension. And mostly its because I wouldn't like it for the game as that would mean you'd never be able to enter shivan space as they have none in "normal" space.
Also, your explaination sucks as I has some key unsupported facts such as
- "Nodes are near planet/neb". In FS there are more then a few missions where nodes are in the middle of nowhere.
- "Subspace travel pollutes Subspace". How? Why? Any supporting arguements for that? You shouldn't use a theory in a theory.
- "Nodes are places in space where the gravital connection created a tunnel between the two subspace spheres that surrounds the stars or other objects with great mass." See point one. Nodes aren't neccesarily near objects with a large mass.
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Originally posted by karajorma
You sure of that? I've never been able to figure out in which direction the classification went :)
Considering, everything on the Sathanas (and the Shivan Comm Node, for that matter) is classified Level Omega, I'd say it goes from Alpha to Omega
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Originally posted by Tiara
OR... you could see that Shivans are just the bad guys in a game :p
Anyway, I don't like the idea of Shivans being from another dimension. And mostly its because I wouldn't like it for the game as that would mean you'd never be able to enter shivan space as they have none in "normal" space.
Also, your explaination sucks as I has some key unsupported facts such as
- "Nodes are near planet/neb". In FS there are more then a few missions where nodes are in the middle of nowhere.
- "Subspace travel pollutes Subspace". How? Why? Any supporting arguements for that? You shouldn't use a theory in a theory.
- "Nodes are places in space where the gravital connection created a tunnel between the two subspace spheres that surrounds the stars or other objects with great mass." See point one. Nodes aren't neccesarily near objects with a large mass.
No, no, no and once again no.
I NEVER said Shivans lived in subspace, you're confusing my theory with a different popular belief.
I didn't say nodes are close to mass - I said they are points in space where an intersystem jump is possible, because the gravitational pull opens it up. I did't say they were necesserly very close to a mass - BTW all nodes are close to a star or nebula - therefore the later is also true in a sense.
Moreover sometimes the place where the gravitational pull is the greatest is in open space because more than one planetoid is involved.
Here's the data from the tech room.
"In simple terms, subspace is an n-dimensional tunnel between one point in the universe and another. A vessel can travel through this tunnel in a matter of minutes, making a journey that might otherwise take decades or even centuries at light speed."
-this fits in nicely with the 10 dimensional loop theory. It is among those extra, other times closed loops of dimensions where subspace exists.
"A jump drive causes a ship to vibrate in multiple dimensions until its modulations are in perfect synchronization with the subspace continuum. A vortex opens, creating an aperture from an infinitesimally small point in the cosmos, enabling the vessel to cross the subspace threshold." - the ship converts its proportions in normal space into subspace dimensions, in effect it turns into the subspace in a manner you'd take a left turn on a road.
Let me give another parallel - if we were living in a 2D world, turning into another 2D plane would mean a rotation paralell to our own reality. A similar thing happens wiht subspace among at least 3 dimensions.
"Two types of jumps are possible.
First, an intrasystem jump can occur between two points in a star system. Most small, space-faring vessels are equipped with motivators capable of these short jumps. The presence of an intense gravitational field is required, prohibiting travel beyond the boundaries of a star system."
-For intrasystem jumps the presense of intense gravitonal field - ergo mass is required. This is the whole basis for the later point of my arguement. Gravity already alines subspace to an ammount, therfor to make inter-system jumps a lot more energy has to be used.
It's easiest to do it where the gravity is already more or less present, this leads to the designation of nodes.
"Second, ships can jump from system to system via nodes. Until the Great War, only larger ships could generate sufficient power to use jump nodes. The development of jump drives for fighters and bombers in 2335 enabled the Alliance to destroy the SD Lucifer in subspace. Producing these small jump drives is prohibitively expensive, so they are restricted to missions that require pilots to travel between systems. The Head-Up Display indicates the location of jump nodes with a green sphere.
The vast majority of subspace nodes are extremely unstable, forming and dissipating in nanoseconds. Other nodes have a longer lifespan, existing for centuries or millennia before collapsing. The jump nodes sanctioned by the GTVA for interstellar travel are expected to remain stable for many years."
-This is the arguament for your later statement. Yes nodes are instable.
I'm putting forth my later part of my theory, which I omitted for the sake that people don't like to read something raving for pages.
In a subspace tunnel - I hope you're not going to argue about their existence - Subspace is circular amond the edges.
The tunnel is actually s straint between to gravitational forces. Energy is present as electromagnetic waves - EMW for short - which varies from light to x-ray particles and other charged particles.
EMWs have a mess of their own, therefore they influence the tunnel - however they rarely stay in the tunnel, however if they are emmited normal to the tunnel they end up forming rings, which take place in the middle of the tunnel.
During thousands of years huge ammounts of energies can be traped inside a tunnel - some of the rings start swing inside the tunnel, lenghtening the reinforced part.
In effect these rings form the framework of the tunnel - these are tre things seen inside the subspace tunnel.
However the complex that the rings fomr can have it's own irregularities, once we speak of something with frequency and resonance and an immense array of stabile/semi-stabile/semi-chaotic structures are possible.
If a ship passes thorugh subspace it's mass affects the tunnel, but it's minimal compared the EMW frame.
However the emmited EMW can increase the chaotic tendencies inside the tunnel, creating huge subspace maelstorms.
This explains the warying nature of subspace nodes.
The Knossos provided an additional pull at one end of a tunnel, clearing it from EMW debris.
With huge ammoung of energies a tunnel can be created almost anywhere, since there's no limit to the size of the EMW structure.
This happened in Capella.
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1). Its still all speculation on existing data. Nothing is proven.
2). You take this too seriously.
3). I have no time or desire to go through the numerous flaws I detected in your explaination.
4). You take this too seriously.
Also, you said Shivans limit the use of subspace travel. Bull, just look at the massive incursions into Terran space with massive armadas and 20 Saths.
Ow, and did I mention that you take this too seriously? :p
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....
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Well, that wented some of that pressure...too bad for my carpet.
I do take it seriously, because the manner in which we deal with subspace can define the very basis of FS canon.
Their massive incursion is one thing - they have developed engines that put minimal strain on subspace - they have the knwoledge how subspace truly works...
However other races don't and in their meddling with subspace can destroy whole areas.
The Shivan limit the use of subspace - by anyone else.
Maybe they treat them as barbars desecrating their wholy temple.
The whole idea of subspace is just speculation...
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Originally posted by Flaser
The whole idea of subspace is just speculation...
Exactly, and though I don't share your views I respect them :)
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Just think. If instead they had just sold us the low pollution engines everyone would have been better off :D
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Thanks for the welcome and corrections Mr. Sesquipedalian.
I have a question, though. What do you mean when you say that motivations cannot be explained because doing so would "twist and distort V's creation away from what they intended." Are you saying that Volition hasn't given the player enough information to facilitate that kind of extension. And are you saying that the Shivans have no "polarization" in the plot primarily because their existence, as portrayed by Volition, is intentionally ambiguous so that there's nothing to polarize in the first place?
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Originally posted by Stunaep
Considering, everything on the Sathanas (and the Shivan Comm Node, for that matter) is classified Level Omega, I'd say it goes from Alpha to Omega
The Sathanas is classified level Upsilon, but Upsilon is also one of the last letters in the Greek alphabet, third to last if I recall.
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Originally posted by Garfield3d
Thanks for the welcome and corrections Mr. Sesquipedalian.
I have a question, though. What do you mean when you say that motivations cannot be explained because doing so would "twist and distort V's creation away from what they intended." Are you saying that Volition hasn't given the player enough information to facilitate that kind of extension. And are you saying that the Shivans have no "polarization" in the plot primarily because their existence, as portrayed by Volition, is intentionally ambiguous so that there's nothing to polarize in the first place?
What I think he's saying is that the shivans were meant to be the ultimate hostile alien race. They're faceless, have uber tech, kill everything in their path for no aparent reason, and to top it all off, there are a seemingly infinite amount of them.
in other words, making sense of them = making them queer.
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Originally posted by Garfield3d
Are you saying that Volition hasn't given the player enough information to facilitate that kind of extension.
not much was told in the FS or FS2 campaign about the ancients, if anything, because Volition wanted them to remain mysterious, and for the player to use their imagination
also i'm sure they couldn't be bothered about going into an in-depth timeline :D
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Originally posted by Garfield3d
Thanks for the welcome and corrections Mr. Sesquipedalian.
I have a question, though. What do you mean when you say that motivations cannot be explained because doing so would "twist and distort V's creation away from what they intended." Are you saying that Volition hasn't given the player enough information to facilitate that kind of extension. And are you saying that the Shivans have no "polarization" in the plot primarily because their existence, as portrayed by Volition, is intentionally ambiguous so that there's nothing to polarize in the first place?
:lol: I don't recall anyone ever calling me "Mister" on this board before. :D
What I mean is that the story that Volition made does not present the Shivans to us as beings we can identify with. We (as real people, not imaginary GTA/GTVA citizens) can understand the Ancients and Vasudans, because their stories and cultures and motivations, etc., are presented to us as being like ours. Because the Vasudans and Ancients are basically humans in other skins, so far as their function in the story is concerned, we can imagine ourselves in their positions. However, the story writers very intentionally did not present the Shivans to us in this way because they are serving an entirely different function in the story. The Shivans are this particular story's embodiment of the evil/destructive force/malevolent adversity that must appear in every good story in some form or another. (It is true that in many stories that embodiment takes the form of a "bad guy" character who can to a degree be identified with by the reader, but the "bad guy" is never a full character: only the evil side appears in him.) To turn the Shivans into beings like us completely changes the entire structure of the story Volition told, making it cease to be a story about broken, partially good and partially evil humanity versus an overwhelming outside evil, and turnign it instead into a story about humans like ourselves vs. funny-looking, more powerful humans like ourselves. Very, very different sort of story.
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(In resposne to Stealth)
Originally posted by Stealth
not much was told in the FS or FS2 campaign about the ancients, if anything, because Volition wanted them to remain mysterious, and for the player to use their imagination
also i'm sure they couldn't be bothered about going into an in-depth timeline :D
Hmm... when I was talking about insufficient information to draw a characterization, I was pointing at the Shivans, not the Ancients (although... the thread is called "Ancients.") Personally, I felt that although there is a whole lot of mystery behind the Ancients, Freespace: The Great War provided enough 'dialogue' between the Ancients and the player for us to draw a basic face to the Ancients. To me, the Shivans feel much more ambiguous.
(In response to Sesqipedalian)
Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
:lol: I don't recall anyone ever calling me "Mister" on this board before. :D
What I mean is that the story that Volition made does not present the Shivans to us as beings we can identify with. We (as real people, not imaginary GTA/GTVA citizens) can understand the Ancients and Vasudans, because their stories and cultures and motivations, etc., are presented to us as being like ours. Because the Vasudans and Ancients are basically humans in other skins, so far as their function in the story is concerned, we can imagine ourselves in their positions. However, the story writers very intentionally did not present the Shivans to us in this way because they are serving an entirely different function in the story. The Shivans are this particular story's embodiment of the evil/destructive force/malevolent adversity that must appear in every good story in some form or another. (It is true that in many stories that embodiment takes the form of a "bad guy" character who can to a degree be identified with by the reader, but the "bad guy" is never a full character: only the evil side appears in him.) To turn the Shivans into beings like us completely changes the entire structure of the story Volition told, making it cease to be a story about broken, partially good and partially evil humanity versus an overwhelming outside evil, and turnign it instead into a story about humans like ourselves vs. funny-looking, more powerful humans like ourselves. Very, very different sort of story.
Meh, I like to call people Mr. or Mme sometimes because it sounds catchier.
I think we're diverging on the perspective on the Shivans though. My whole feeling on the Shivans as being a mechanism of the universe was from the perspective of an actual citizen in the Freespace universe. While I think I can see your perspective on the Shivans as being painted as the great evil in the plot, I think... I disagree. My take on the plot was that the Shivans were an ambiguous and mysterious force that could only be antagonized as a clensing force in which we were at the recieving end of. I would say that the monologues in Freespace: The Great War help bring about this characterization (at least for me.) I agree that the Shivans are not an entity that we can really identify, but I didn't feel that the Shivans were painted as a pure evil; rather, they're antagonized because they want to eliminate us. Retrospectively, I think this perspective diverges pretty far from the standard fare of "fighting the good fight" and makes a pretty crappy motivator for the player/pilots in Freespace 2. I'm not sure we'll reach a consensus on this point though. While the Shivans always spooked me, I always had a nudging feeling that I couldn't blame them.
(Edited for itallics and some spelling)
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I disagree with your view that the shivans are painted as an unknowable evil Sesquipedalian. Bosch understood them (or at least felt he did). Furthermore they didn't kill Bosch when he started to speak to him. Instead they took him away in their ships. That means that in FS2 [V] wanted to add some ambiguity to the shivans. Maybe they aren't evil. Maybe they were doing something else.
Bosch believed that humanity could make an alliance with the shivans. An alliance that somehow would never happen while we we allies with the Vasudans. Again that does sit well for me with the prospect of an unknowable evil. The shivans do have goals that a human can understand it's just that [V] reserved them for FS3.
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Hmmm... I suddenly have an idea... a great idea I might add :drevil:
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Care to elaborate?
Or it needs refining?
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Perhaps later...
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Originally posted by Garfield3d
... My take on the plot was that the Shivans were an ambiguous and mysterious force that could only be antagonized as a clensing force in which we were at the recieving end of. ...
And I can understand your perspective, but I likewise cannot quite agree. That the Shivans are a complex destructive force, in that there are side effects that might be classed as "good", I would wholeheartedly agree. But what did the Terrans or the Vasudans do to warrant destruction? Discovered subspace and had a little spat between themselves. The Ancients may have made themselves a scourge over other races, but all we had done was simply be there. The Shivans were not destroying us because we'd commited some crime that demanded punishment, but just because we were there.
New life may indeed spring up where death and destruction have passed before, which is the FS universe's ultimate moral. But that day breaks after the night doesn't make the night any less dark.
Originally posted by karajorma
I disagree with your view that the shivans are painted as an unknowable evil Sesquipedalian. Bosch understood them (or at least felt he did). Furthermore they didn't kill Bosch when he started to speak to him. Instead they took him away in their ships. That means that in FS2 [V] wanted to add some ambiguity to the shivans. Maybe they aren't evil. Maybe they were doing something else.
Bosch believed that humanity could make an alliance with the shivans. An alliance that somehow would never happen while we we allies with the Vasudans. Again that does sit well for me with the prospect of an unknowable evil. The shivans do have goals that a human can understand it's just that [V] reserved them for FS3.
But they did kill everyone on his ship indiscriminately when they took him. You've misunderstood my meaning ever so subtly, karajorma. :) I did not say they are of necessity unknowable: V could have written the story a bit differently, of course. I said that in V's story they are an unknown. To change that is to change the function of the Shivans in the story, and thus to change the nature of the whole story. It is not that the Shivans have no motivations (there usually are motivations associated with evil in most stories), but we are not told their motivations because they are supposed to remain incomprehensible to us (as real people).
Let me take a different tack for a minute. In 2000, I visited a preserved concentration camp in Dauchau. The single most disturbing thing about that day was not the photos, or the ovens, or the bunkers, or the medical experiment records. It was how effortlessly I could imagine being in the place, not of an inmate (which was hard), but of a guard. I spoke to others about this, and they had similar experiences. Any person could have become one, easily. The choice is simple, and perfectly understandable (hence the effortlessness of imagining it). And yet, understanding of the motivation that would bring one to choose such a course eluded me, and still does. I can imagine myself into the place of a guard. I cannot imagine why such evil was done.
Now, in this example, we can see that even being able to imagine oneself in the very place of the person with evil motivation does not allow one to understand the evil motivation. If we could truly understand it, we wouldn't call it evil anymore. We might call it insane or confused or misguided, and so find a place for it in the universe, as if it belonged here. But it is evil, and therefore we cannot truly understand it. So likewise the Shivans: whatever their general and particular motivations, V keeps them incomprehensible to us, because if they were known and understood by us, we could say of them "Oh, well, that's alright then."
As for Bosch, many people, real and fictitious, have foolishly felt they could ally with evil for some good end. Another of FS's major themes was that evil begets evil. As Bosch himself said, his quest had resulted in the deaths of millions. The irony of his final monologue's words followed by what the Shivans did when they arrived (killing everyone and dragging him aboard) clinched it for me on that count.
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Meh, the Shadows apparantly had no reason to destroy everything and everyone... But that turned out to be quite different too :p
Since there is no FS3 we will either have to create a campaign (like the expansion we are planning) that will explain it further. Otherwise its just speculation as V never released the full story :p.
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Originally posted by Tiara
Meh, the Shadows apparantly had no reason to destroy everything and everyone... But that turned out to be quite different too :p
Since there is no FS3 we will either have to create a campaign (like the expansion we are planning) that will explain it further. Otherwise its just speculation as V never released the full story :p.
Couldn't have put it better myself :D
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It is even more speculative to think that V was ever planning to reveal the motivations of the Shivans. What makes you think they would suddenly undo the spell they'd worked so carefully to weave for two full installments?
It doesn't compare with TV series, either. TV series are made up as they go along. The FS trilogy, had it been completed, would have been a unified narrative, like the original Star Wars trilogy. TV series are written in such a way that they can be constantly added to. They don't have a fixed end in sight from the beginning, so their stories can and do change and morph over time.
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
It is even more speculative to think that V was ever planning to reveal the motivations of the Shivans. What makes you think they would suddenly undo the spell they'd worked so carefully to weave for two full installments?
It doesn't compare with TV series, either. TV series are made up as they go along. The FS trilogy, had it been completed, would have been a unified narrative, like the original Star Wars trilogy. TV series are written in such a way that they can be constantly added to. They don't have a fixed end in sight from the beginning, so their stories can and do change and morph over time.
1). If V wouldn't do that they'd be making a mistake. Leaving such holes in a story is never good IMO unless its the 1st or 2nd part. But after 3 game eps (4 if you count ST) the reasons should be known else it'd get dull. Fighting for no apparent reason.
But yes, V has been a dumb-ass and left us speculating about this. But its not more speculative, cause this at least can be given a valid, non-sci-fi reason for. :p
2). :wtf: You say TV series never have an ending? When the Shadows and Vorlons left it was pretty much an ending for that saga. Yes, B5 continued, but that part of the story was revealed and had ended. Such major plot developments like Shivand or Vorlon/Shadows should never stay unexplained.
And SW, well, that were just movies of the same thing over and over again :doubt:
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Originally posted by Tiara
1). If V wouldn't do that they'd be making a mistake. Leaving such holes in a story is never good IMO unless its the 1st or 2nd part. But after 3 game eps (4 if you count ST) the reasons should be known else it'd get dull. Fighting for no apparent reason.
But yes, V has been a dumb-ass and left us speculating about this. But its not more speculative, cause this at least can be given a valid, non-sci-fi reason for. :p
Not holes at all. FS's story is about us, not them. The Shivans are "what happens", the Terrans (and Vasudans, sort of) and what they do in this situation is what the story is about. If the story was about Shivans, it'd tell us about Shivans. Instead it tells us about Terrans. And since it is about Terrans, we don't need to know about Shivans. So these aren't holes at all. Look at FS1: we never knew their motivations there, yet it made a perfectly good story. Yet you speak as though changing the length of the story somehow changed the "shape" of the story.
2). :wtf: You say TV series never have an ending? When the Shadows and Vorlons left it was pretty much an ending for that saga. Yes, B5 continued, but that part of the story was revealed and had ended. Such major plot developments like Shivand or Vorlon/Shadows should never stay unexplained.
Read carefully. I said they are not generally written with a specific ending in sight from the beginning. They always end, but they usually just end up wherever they happen to have ended up.
And why should they never remain unexplained? In some stories they can, do, and should remain unexplained. Each story is different, and for some, explaining the mystery kills the story. FS is one of those: if the motivations of the Shivans were explained, it would suck out all its power. I'd never come back to it again.
And SW, well, that were just movies of the same thing over and over again :doubt:
The quality of Star Wars is irrelevant: what matters is that all three were composed together as a single story. FS bears the marks of having been composed the same way, thus indicating that consistency between 3 and 1&2 would be expected.
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There is a difference between having a mysterious enemy and just having an enemy who exists as a plot device.
Unlike FS1 which makes sense as a stand alone FS2 doesn't make sense. It's easy to see why the shivans would attack the Terran and Vasudan homeworlds first. Cut off the head and the body dies. But the destruction of Capella doesn't make much sense. Why didn't the Shivan's just wipe out the whole GTVA? They definately had the muscle for it.
That sort of thing has to be explained by a sequel. Otherwise the shivans would change from a believeable enemy into a simple plot device. If the shivans are to be believeable they need to act as though they have concrete, understandable motives or you might as well replace them with a standard mustache twiddling enemy who just does things cause he's evil.
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Originally posted by karajorma
There is a difference between having a mysterious enemy and just having an enemy who exists as a plot device.
Unlike FS1 which makes sense as a stand alone FS2 doesn't make sense. It's easy to see why the shivans would attack the Terran and Vasudan homeworlds first. Cut off the head and the body dies. But the destruction of Capella doesn't make much sense. Why didn't the Shivan's just wipe out the whole GTVA? They definately had the muscle for it.
That sort of thing has to be explained by a sequel. Otherwise the shivans would change from a believeable enemy into a simple plot device. If the shivans are to be believeable they need to act as though they have concrete, understandable motives or you might as well replace them with a standard mustache twiddling enemy who just does things cause he's evil.
Every character functions as a plot device. That isn't all that can be said about a character, but it is certainly a large part of what can be said. I have been discussing this aspect of the Shivans because it is from this aspect that I have been arguing. I did not say this is the only aspect there is to the Shivans.
Apparently I have not been clear enough about my precise subject matter. I am not discussing the Shivans' particular motives for particular actions (e.g. nuking Capella, destroying the GTC Lysander, firing missiles at enemy fighters, etc.), but their larger motivations. We likely would have been given some clue why they nuked Capella in FS3. But what drives them to do what they do, what the goals and values and desires of a Shivan are, would remain a mystery. I haven't been taking issue with people wondering why they blew up Capella, but with people trying to draw analogies to their character from the socio-political realites of human inter-relations.
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
That the Shivans are a complex destructive force, in that there are side effects that might be classed as "good", I would wholeheartedly agree. But what did the Terrans or the Vasudans do to warrant destruction? Discovered subspace and had a little spat between themselves. The Ancients may have made themselves a scourge over other races, but all we had done was simply be there. The Shivans were not destroying us because we'd commited some crime that demanded punishment, but just because we were there.
I find it difficult to classify the shivans as'good' or 'evil' as such concepts are essentially social constructions and based on your particular outlook. The ruthless efficiency of the shivans in my opinion can't really be viewed as evil as i don't think there is any instance of them exibiting any form of emotion or understanding of others suffering and the fact that the shivans were destroying the terrans just because they were there can't be described as inherently evil in the same way as i doubt you would describe the construction company that builds over an ants nest as evil, its just a fact.
DEF
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Originally posted by Defconca
I find it difficult to classify the shivans as'good' or 'evil' as such concepts are essentially social constructions and based on your particular outlook. The ruthless efficiency of the shivans in my opinion can't really be viewed as evil as i don't think there is any instance of them exibiting any form of emotion or understanding of others suffering and the fact that the shivans were destroying the terrans just because they were there can't be described as inherently evil in the same way as i doubt you would describe the construction company that builds over an ants nest as evil, its just a fact.
DEF
Except that the story is written from our perspective, and therefore our perspective is the norm for the story.
Incidently, are good and evil merely social constuctions? Postmodern philosophy tends to overstate its case. Different individuals and cultures may differ on what fits where in those categories, but the categories do indeed appear to be quite universal. When postmodernists argue that such differences of opinion mean that good and evil are only social constructions, it is very much like arguing that since some people find jalepeno peppers to hot too eat and other people like them, therefore jalepenos have no objective spiciness to them.
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
Except that the story is written from our perspective, and therefore our perspective is the norm for the story.
Bull-****. When I look at for examply Star Trek it is solely viewed from strafleet perspective. And most of that I find evil while it is being shown as good. However, I find them a bunch of wussies and cowards without brains.
The perspective of a story does not define what the viewer/player percieves as right and wrong.
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Well, you personally might disagree with the story, but that doesn't change the perspective taken by the story, which is the issue here.
By the way, you seem to be getting angry about this topic. Are you? If so, why?
:)
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So, By only reading the last 3 posts, I gather that tiara thinks its dumb that Shivans are seen as bad, or she thinks its dumb that the GTVA is seen as good, or she doesn't liek the fact that FS2 is a cliffhanger? :wtf:
Well, I think the first two are kind of givens, but about cliffhanging, I always thought it was perfect. They ended in just the perfect spot, for a company that wouldn't get a chance to make FS3, yet still have fans.
Honestly, part of me is glad there is no FS3 (a small, artistic part :nervous: ) because it would slaughter all of the open ended universe we have. One reason why I think FS and FS2 are the best space sims out there is because we can literally do whatever we want with it. We can become the writers and finish the story, write prequels, parallel stories, anything. And it all flows together because it's such a solid universe.
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I always wondered what influence Bosch had on the shivan behaviour, i.e. if he told them that capella was the new Terran homeworld. If so could he be described as 'evil'? Especially since in my opinion the monologues help the player to empathise to a certain extent with the character, for being sTuck on a path he had committed himself to.
And personally i like the cliffhanger all the better for the mods to start off from ;7
DEF
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
1).So, By only reading the last 3 posts, I gather that tiara thinks its dumb that Shivans are seen as bad,
2). or she thinks its dumb that the GTVA is seen as good,
3).or she doesn't liek the fact that FS2 is a cliffhanger? :wtf:
1). Absolutely right. Good and bad cannot be used in these extreme forms. There are people on this planet who say killing for no reaon is good... You don't know the motives of the Shivans therefor you CANNOT say they are doing either the right or wrong thing. For all you know, the universe will go kabloomie if they don't destroy us.
And why can't you say that the Shivans are just trying to defend their homes in a pre-emptive strike against the 2 legged pest that calls themself the Terran race? Because they might see the Terrans as a threat to them and they are just trying to protect their homes before the Terrans come to them. If they knew about us they should also know that we kill anything we don't understand (Or at least try like with the Vasudans).
This'd just be one of the many scenario's that are possible, but don't just portrait them as "evil". There must be a reason that Bosch joined them anyway :p
2). Again, right.
3). Wrong. I like cliffhangers. I just don't like people drawing conclusions from them and think that they are right. It isn't called an open end for nothing.
And Sesq, I'm not angry ;) You should know me better then that :p
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Ow, I just got really confused.
The player's perspective as a pilot in the GTVA is just a medium for telling a story. As pointed out, the perspective of the audience is the norm of the story. Have we all basically... at the least established we have an ambiguous antagonist (the Shivans) with some of us thinking that the Shivans are the great evil in the plot and others thinking that things are morally ambiguous?
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Uh, well, from the pilots point of view, you'd have to recognise that the shivans are seen as evil. Personally, I don't think they are evil per se, just their methods for their greater cause are rather dirty. But as far as the game goes, The shivans i'm sure are meant to be seen as evil, thus would be the whole surprise if they turn out to actually be doing everything for the greater good.
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This is the 108th post in this thread which confirms that we all know: This is a quite good that we can discuss the being of the Ancients in a thread with this length, this is one of the most mysterious thing in the world of FreeSpace.
Shivan Homeworld is longer with about 50 posts, and that is also a very mysterious area of FS.
Just noticed ...
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Originally posted by Tiara
*The Good, the Bad, and the Dumb*
But Tiara, the role the Shivans play in the story is that of the bad guy. For you or I to say that really they are not is for us to try to recast the story into the way that it would be if we had written it. But we did not write it. If you or I want to make our own story based on Volition's story, we are free to do that and to do whatever we want within it (e.g. make the Shivans be neither the bad guys nor inscrutable and make the universe go kablooie if the Terrans are not destroyed). But if we are talking about V's story, we have to take it as it is presented to us---including the fact that the Shivans play the role of inscrutable bad guys.
Originally posted by Garfield3d
The player's perspective as a pilot in the GTVA is just a medium for telling a story. As pointed out, the perspective of the audience is the norm of the story.
It's a little more complicated than that. I wouldn't say the player's perspective as a pilot in the GTVA is "just" a medium for telling the story. And "the perspective of the audience" is a term very easily misunderstood.
Really, the story dictates its own terms, using the means of the GTVA pilot to do so in this case. The persepctive laid down by the story is the norm for the story, and the audience is brought into that perspective while reading (or in this case, playing) it. If the reader steps back from the story and starts thinking about it instead of reading it, (s)he may take a different perspective than the one the story lays down. But then we are dealing with the reader's perspective about the story, not the perspective of the story.
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hmm :) I printed this post out when it had 4 pages and a bit, and surprisingly after highlighting all information that was interesting to me about the ancients, I got to page4 and it was focused on the Shivans, now I don't know whether people in this forum can read a topic title..but it does say ANCIENTS..now there is a Topic already posted for the Shivans and thats were it should stay - whether they were bad, evil or neutral doesn't matter they just simply exist to DESTROY!!! :rolleyes:
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You got anything further to say about them, go ahead. Nobody's stopping you. Otherwise, whining is kinda silly- there's nothing more to say about 'em.
Also, that was perhaps the silliest condescension I've seen all week. I don't care if I sound like Zylon, it just had to be said.
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Originally posted by Max
hmm :) I printed this post out when it had 4 pages and a bit, and surprisingly after highlighting all information that was interesting to me about the ancients, I got to page4 and it was focused on the Shivans, now I don't know whether people in this forum can read a topic title..but it does say ANCIENTS..now there is a Topic already posted for the Shivans and thats were it should stay - whether they were bad, evil or neutral doesn't matter they just simply exist to DESTROY!!! :rolleyes:
Why would we talk about the Ancients? They're DEAD! :p
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Tisk...Tisk..Tisk Anger :no: doesn't lead anywhere, you obviously don't know that. Peace does...:yes: so use time for something other then disrupting the topic...ok :nod:
btw no anger was used to create this post or the previous :D
:ha: ;)
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Anger leads plenty of places. Tantrums, for one, and unsavory vengeance, for another. Both are quite cathartic, what one poet called "the fruits of life". So, once again... you were saying something?
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Actually its more like I'm asking??? :p Now...in relation to the Ancients, ever so little though..
How did the Terrans discover subspace?
Thus knowing subspace how did they find the first node - Delta Serpentis?
Could there be some sort of link between the Ancients and the Shivans. and btw what do we call a race older than the Ancients?
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The Ancienters
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What bout older than that...
And then after that one older than that:nod:
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We're gonna be using a lot of 'er's
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The more ancient then the Ancients Ancients :p
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Originally posted by Tiara
Why would we talk about the Ancients? They're DEAD! :p
Nothing can be dead if it didn't exist, and won't do in the future.
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I always wanted to ask it, but I was always forgeting it. Now not, what is 'btw'?
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btw = By the way
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Originally posted by Defconca
I always wondered what influence Bosch had on the shivan behaviour, i.e. if he told them that capella was the new Terran homeworld. If so could he be described as 'evil'? Especially since in my opinion the monologues help the player to empathise to a certain extent with the character, for being sTuck on a path he had committed himself to.
You know Burke, I don't know which species is worse. You don't see them ****ing each other over for a God damn percentage.
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:wtf:And I thought I understood British humour
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<-- Apparently the only HLP denizen to have seen any of the Alien films
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
It's a little more complicated than that. I wouldn't say the player's perspective as a pilot in the GTVA is "just" a medium for telling the story. And "the perspective of the audience" is a term very easily misunderstood.
Really, the story dictates its own terms, using the means of the GTVA pilot to do so in this case. The persepctive laid down by the story is the norm for the story, and the audience is brought into that perspective while reading (or in this case, playing) it. If the reader steps back from the story and starts thinking about it instead of reading it, (s)he may take a different perspective than the one the story lays down. But then we are dealing with the reader's perspective about the story, not the perspective of the story.
Eh? I would say it is important for the reader to take a step back and think about the story, regardless of where the perspective goes from there. It's where all of the niftier plots, like Heart of Darkness or Moby Dick, go. Otherwise, it's all just a rehashed plot with minimal substance that provides a medium for pretty explosions and weird action. I think that the addition of monologues, particularly the Ancients in Freespace (wheee, nifty link back to topic) urges readers to question what is happening and, more or less, equate the carelessness of the Ancients to the Terrans and Vasudans. It is only fitting that when each side meets intelligent life for the first time, diplomacy breaks down and they try to blow the crap out of each other. I would say that the Terrans are Vasudans follow the same pattern of destruction if they hadn't met each other.
Originally posted by Diamondgeezer
Apparently the only HLP denizen to have seen any of the Alien films
Well, you'd only need to have seen Aliens to know that quote. ;)
As a small random tangent... The beating of that queen by that hybrid alien in Alien Resurrection would contradict Ms. Ripley's earlier quote. However... that movie certainly did muck.
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Originally posted by Max
Actually its more like I'm asking??? :p Now...in relation to the Ancients, ever so little though..
How did the Terrans discover subspace?
Thus knowing subspace how did they find the first node - Delta Serpentis?
Could there be some sort of link between the Ancients and the Shivans. and btw what do we call a race older than the Ancients?
There's an ongoing debate about what subspace is - my idea (in other words the one I pimp :devil: ) is that subspace is an aligned space created from the 6 dimensions that are otherwise folded up. Huh? :wtf: Well, according to string physics the truly elementary particles actually exist in 10 dimensions, however only 4 are apparant on macro scale (3 space+ 1 time) *the scale we're talking about is 10^-31 so even an atom is as big as a solar-system*.
It can be further complicated - but made nicer as well - by the bubble theory, that states, that only a certain vicinity of a ship is aligned and this space-time-bubble is the actual vessel for going through subspace.
About how and exactly how was the method discovered, or how does a subspace drive work is unknown as per the moment.
About when and how the nodes were created the oncoming Unification War campaign - the demo for TVW - will answer some of your questions.
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Originally posted by Garfield3d
Well, you'd only need to have seen Aliens to know that quote. ;)
As a small random tangent... The beating of that queen by that hybrid alien in Alien Resurrection would contradict Ms. Ripley's earlier quote. However... that movie certainly did muck.
No it doesnt, the hybrid as exactly that, a hybrid, not a normal alien.
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Originally posted by Zeronet
No it doesnt, the hybrid as exactly that, a hybrid, not a normal alien.
Well, I would buy that argument if it assumes that the taint of human blood makes the hybrid extra tipsy. However, the queen recognized the hybrid as being one of her own.
Looking back on the quote more, I guess my point would be irrelevent regardless since it's not about a percentage.
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Originally posted by Garfield3d
Eh? I would say it is important for the reader to take a step back and think about the story, regardless of where the perspective goes from there. ...
Of course it is important, but that is a whole different issue from what I was talking about. :wtf:
I was simply describing what is and is not objectively the case, not what is important.
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Originally posted by Tiara
btw = By the way
I am always learning something new every day. :thepimp:
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I've never felt the writers intended the Shivans to be conveyed as evil. It's hard to draw an analogy, the closest I can come up with is taking antibiotics to kill an infection. The bacteria causing an infection are alive, but no one loses any sleep over killing them. The Ancients, Terrans, and Vasudans might all be alive, just like bacteria, but as far as the Shivans are concerned, only they are worthy to live. There is no malice on the part of the Shivans, we're polluting the universe and the Shivans are there to clean it up.
As for Capella, I don't believe it needs nor should have an explanation. One of the key reasons why Freespace 2 has remained my favorite game over the years is due to the air of mystery. Whatever the Shivans' goals, they are beyond the understanding of mere gnats like us. The Shivans destroy. Why should always remain pure speculation.
Bosch is an interesting character and another reason why I enjoy the plot. The cutscenes humanize him and try to explain his motives. Its clear he's taken some evil steps along the way, but his intentions are noble: he wants to save his people from annihilation. When he first set out to form an alliance with the Shivans, he could not have known it would fail. No matter how slim the odds, Bosch likely considered it humanity's only hope for salvation. The war with the Shivans is almost certainly futile and some sort of accomodation will eventually have to be developed if the GTVA is to survive. The fact that the Shivans killed the crew of the Iceni is meaningless, they regularly slaughter entire planets. Maybe the crew was like cockroaches to be stepped on but Bosch surprised them by being intelligent enough to talk to them. Who knows? He might eventually work out a (Faustian?) bargain with the Shivans.
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Who says Bosch failed? :D