[Sesquipedalian]

Originally posted by Defconca


I find it difficult to classify the shivans as'good' or 'evil' as such concepts are essentially social constructions and based on your particular outlook. The ruthless efficiency of the shivans in my opinion can't really be viewed as evil as i don't think there is any instance of them exibiting any form of emotion or understanding of others suffering and the fact that the shivans were destroying the terrans just because they were there can't be described as inherently evil in the same way as i doubt you would describe the construction company that builds over an ants nest as evil, its just a fact.
DEF

Except that the story is written from our perspective, and therefore our perspective is the norm for the story.  

Incidently, are good and evil merely social constuctions?  Postmodern philosophy tends to overstate its case.  Different individuals and cultures may differ on what fits where in those categories, but the categories do indeed appear to be quite universal.  When postmodernists argue that such differences of opinion mean that good and evil are only social constructions, it is very much like arguing that since some people find jalepeno peppers to hot too eat and other people like them, therefore jalepenos have no objective spiciness to them.

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
Except that the story is written from our perspective, and therefore our perspective is the norm for the story.  

Bull-****. When I look at for examply Star Trek it is solely viewed from strafleet perspective. And most of that I find evil while it is being shown as good. However, I find them a bunch of wussies and cowards without brains.

The perspective of a story does not define what the viewer/player percieves as right and wrong.

[Sesquipedalian]

Well, you personally might disagree with the story, but that doesn't change the perspective taken by the story, which is the issue here.

By the way, you seem to be getting angry about this topic.  Are you?  If so, why?

[Knight Templar]

So, By only reading the last 3 posts, I gather that tiara thinks its dumb that Shivans are seen as bad, or she thinks its dumb that the GTVA is seen as good, or she doesn't liek the fact that FS2 is a cliffhanger?

Well, I think the first two are kind of givens, but about cliffhanging, I always thought it was perfect. They ended in just the perfect spot, for a company that wouldn't get a chance to make FS3, yet still have fans.

Honestly, part of me is glad there is no FS3 (a small, artistic part ) because it would slaughter all of the open ended universe we have. One reason why I think FS and FS2 are the best space sims out there is because we can literally do whatever we want with it. We can become the writers and finish the story, write prequels, parallel stories, anything. And it all flows together because it's such a solid universe.

[Defconca]

I always wondered what influence Bosch had on the shivan behaviour, i.e. if he told them that capella was the new Terran homeworld. If so could he be described as 'evil'? Especially since in my opinion the monologues help the player to empathise to a certain extent with the character, for being sTuck on a path he had committed himself to.
And personally i like the cliffhanger all the better for the mods to start off from
DEF

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Knight Templar
1).So, By only reading the last 3 posts, I gather that tiara thinks its dumb that Shivans are seen as bad,

2). or she thinks its dumb that the GTVA is seen as good,

3).or she doesn't liek the fact that FS2 is a cliffhanger?

1). Absolutely right. Good and bad cannot be used in these extreme forms. There are people on this planet who say killing for no reaon is good... You don't know the motives of the Shivans therefor you CANNOT say they are doing either the right or wrong thing. For all you know, the universe will go kabloomie if they don't destroy us.

And why can't you say that the Shivans are just trying to defend their homes in a pre-emptive strike against the 2 legged pest that calls themself the Terran race? Because they might see the Terrans as a threat to them and they are just trying to protect their homes before the Terrans come to them. If they knew about us they should also know that we kill anything we don't understand (Or at least try like with the Vasudans).

This'd just be one of the many scenario's that are possible, but don't just portrait them as "evil". There must be a reason that Bosch joined them anyway

2). Again, right.

3). Wrong. I like cliffhangers. I just don't like people drawing conclusions from them and think that they are right. It isn't called an open end for nothing.

And Sesq, I'm not angry You should know me better then that

[Garfield3d]

Ow, I just got really confused.

The player's perspective as a pilot in the GTVA is just a medium for telling a story. As pointed out, the perspective of the audience is the norm of the story. Have we all basically... at the least established we have an ambiguous antagonist (the Shivans) with some of us thinking that the Shivans are the great evil in the plot and others thinking that things are morally ambiguous?

[Knight Templar]

Uh, well, from the pilots point of view, you'd have to recognise that the shivans are seen as evil. Personally, I don't think they are evil per se, just their methods for their greater cause are rather dirty. But as far as the game goes, The shivans i'm sure are meant to be seen as evil, thus would be the whole surprise if they turn out to actually be doing everything for the greater good.

[TopAce]

This is the 108th post in this thread which confirms that we all know: This is a quite good that we can discuss the being of the Ancients in a thread with this length, this is one of the most mysterious thing in the world of FreeSpace.

Shivan Homeworld is longer with about 50 posts, and that is also a very mysterious area of FS.

Just noticed ...

[Sesquipedalian]

Originally posted by Tiara
*The Good, the Bad, and the Dumb*

But Tiara, the role the Shivans play in the story is that of the bad guy.  For you or I to say that really they are not is for us to try to recast the story into the way that it would be if we had written it.  But we did not write it.  If you or I want to make our own story based on Volition's story, we are free to do that and to do whatever we want within it (e.g. make the Shivans be neither the bad guys nor inscrutable and make the universe go kablooie if the Terrans are not destroyed).  But if we are talking about V's story, we have to take it as it is presented to us---including the fact that the Shivans play the role of inscrutable bad guys.

Originally posted by Garfield3d
The player's perspective as a pilot in the GTVA is just a medium for telling a story. As pointed out, the perspective of the audience is the norm of the story.  

It's a little more complicated than that.  I wouldn't say the player's perspective as a pilot in the GTVA is "just" a medium for telling the story.  And "the perspective of the audience" is a term very easily misunderstood.

Really, the story dictates its own terms, using the means of the GTVA pilot to do so in this case.  The persepctive laid down by the story is the norm for the story, and the audience is brought into that perspective while reading (or in this case, playing) it.  If the reader steps back from the story and starts thinking about it instead of reading it, (s)he may take a different perspective than the one the story lays down.  But then we are dealing with the reader's perspective about the story, not the perspective of the story.

[Xelion]

hmm I printed this post out when it had 4 pages and a bit, and surprisingly after highlighting all information that was interesting to me about the ancients,  I got to page4 and it was focused on the Shivans, now I don't know whether people in this forum can read a topic title..but it does say ANCIENTS..now there is a Topic already posted for the Shivans and thats were it should stay - whether they were bad, evil or neutral doesn't matter they just simply exist to DESTROY!!!

[Stryke 9]

You got anything further to say about them, go ahead. Nobody's stopping you. Otherwise, whining is kinda silly- there's nothing more to say about 'em.

Also, that was perhaps the silliest condescension I've seen all week. I don't care if I sound like Zylon, it just had to be said.

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Max
hmm I printed this post out when it had 4 pages and a bit, and surprisingly after highlighting all information that was interesting to me about the ancients,  I got to page4 and it was focused on the Shivans, now I don't know whether people in this forum can read a topic title..but it does say ANCIENTS..now there is a Topic already posted for the Shivans and thats were it should stay - whether they were bad, evil or neutral doesn't matter they just simply exist to DESTROY!!!

Why would we talk about the Ancients? They're DEAD!

[Xelion]

Tisk...Tisk..Tisk  Anger doesn't lead anywhere, you obviously don't know that. Peace does... so use time for something other then disrupting the topic...ok

btw no anger was used to create this post or the previous

[Stryke 9]

Anger leads plenty of places. Tantrums, for one, and unsavory vengeance, for another. Both are quite cathartic, what one poet called "the fruits of life". So, once again... you were saying something?

[Xelion]

Actually its more like I'm asking???   Now...in relation to the Ancients, ever so little though..

How did the Terrans discover subspace?
Thus knowing subspace how did they find the first node - Delta Serpentis?

Could there be some sort of link between the Ancients and the Shivans. and btw what do we call a race older than the Ancients?

[Black Wolf]

The Ancienters

[Xelion]

What bout older than that...


And then after that one older than that:nod:

[Black Wolf]

We're gonna be using a lot of 'er's

[Tiara]

The more ancient then the Ancients Ancients