[Zacam]

Detail in what way? Lights and bangs are just as they should be in either case. All you loose are normal maps, and given the technical issues surrounding that model of card specifically and in relation to the drivers you are using means that normal maps are not supported on it, which means you never had them to begin with.

And the detail is there. And I don't hear Mac people saying they cannot use normal maps or shaders outside of windowed mode (or sometimes not even then) but none of THEM have posted such a wealth of contradictory information in requesting assistance NOR have they had any where the attitude of doing so.

So, if -no_glsl means you walk away from freespace, from what I have seen, we won't loose anything. It would be a damn shame if that were the case however. We enjoy having people here that are willing to enjoy what is here.

And we don't know _fully_ what the problem is with the x19## cards. Partially because of conflictive information. Partially because there are too many questions that make no sense. But I am in the process of getting an x300, x600, x1900 and x1950 to find out for myself.

And sometimes, you just have to realize and accept that you don't always get what you want. When you look at High Quality DX 10 screenshots of something like Crysis for example, do you decide your system should be able to get how that looks? Because it's not. And right now, at _this moment_ your system does not get normal maps/shaders.

Maybe.

We haven't even released the patch yet, which has some changes to the existing shaders. Care to stick around and see if it helps any?

[Galemp]

I wouldn't give for sure that custom ships use custom textures, however. They usually use retail textures. I guess it's easier for a modeller to use a texture the FSU upgrades continuously rather than create an exclusive texture that will be refered to as trash after 2+ years.

Curiously this is just what's been happening with Dark's mods. Back in the day, his textures and models were superb. I spent a lot of time redrawing and upgrading them for the FSPort MVPs, and I've even UV unwrapped the pylons. The old textures were certainly as good as anything put out, and upgrading them was a pleasure.

[Galemp]

Don't make me splitlock this thread.

Cease with the ad hominem arguments. We're all willing to diagnose and treat problems here if it's within our power to do so and it's in the spirit of fellowship within the community.

[chief1983]

I could _maybe_ see a log file not being updated, if perhaps some permissions got jacked and the engine ceased to be able to delete and overwrite an old log.  I could see this being more likely on Vista if the game weren't run as Administrator, but he's on XP it looks like, so I'm not sure.  Could still be possible it was locked somehow.  High Max, try deleting the old fs2_open.log file manually first and see if a new one is created.  We could still use some of the info in an attempt to try to circumvent this bug.

Max, Radeon is a good brand but ATi has shoddy OpenGL support.  Not as bad as Intel but still not the greatest.  They routinely don't work as expected.  On top of that, the GLSL code had high requirements to begin with, and only work with the newest of the new when it was first released to the public a year ago.  SM3.0 isn't properly implemented even on some cards you could pick up off of the shelf today.  I don't think it's going to work probably on anything less than a Radeon HD on a regular basis.  That's just the way the shader system was coded, it's not going to get fixed with a 'patch'.  Now, even without GLSL, your graphics are still better than they were a year ago as many problems with the last mediavps have been fixed, many models have been added, etc.  And by constantly stating that a patch should be able to fix it, almost to the point that it sounds like an expectation (especially when you said it was 'not acceptable' to turn down your graphics even the tiniest bit), it sounds like you're blaming everyone else for deeper problems between the engine and your line of hardware that are likely to never be avoided.

[blowfish]

Remember what I said about the freedom to express my opinion and that is one of the reasons for forums? I'm not breaking any rule and I'm saying how it is. I was thinking that the SCP can release a patch that allows to eliminate the problem and make it more compatible with all major video card brands. Radeon is a good brand and my drivers are up to datem so I expect no problemswith it working with games.

When did I say it was your fault? Did I say that? I'm not polluting the thread since I'm on topic the whole time and I have a right be upset, but I never said it was your fault and I didn't use one bad word or insult or anything.

I'm ok. I won't walk away from FS. I just know there is more to life. I can wait for a patch if I must

No, you're not really breaking any rule, but you're whining like a three-year-old.

And what makes you think it is as simple as "making it compatible with everything"?  You wouldn't be saying that if you knew the kind of work that went into fixing compatibility issues with specific hardware, both on the code side and the models/textures side.

If you genuinely want to help fix an issue, then by all means, provide the information necessary to fix it, though in that case a major attitude overhaul is in order on your part.  But if all you want to do is whine, go do it elsewhere.

[Zacam]

Enough.

Srsly.

What we can do, will be done. If there is some issue with how the shaders are written that can be addressed, it will be. But do not expect miracles. Just because the drivers say the hardware can do something does not mean it will do it well.

On the issue of drivers: Yes, hardware wise, ATI makes some damn nice cards. I still own plenty as far back an the Original 32mb DDR AGP card. I still have a 3D Rage card. I still have an Xpert@Play card.

But thier drivers (and nVidia is just as at fault for this as well) are **** when it comes to the new supporting the old like it should because they want the "One driver to rule them all" approach, and it just. does. not. work.

When a completely new core line up comes out a new driver package for that cores features and cards needs to be made. The older ones can retain support and you can be sure that if/when they get updated, it will be to fix or improve something for that core/lineup. There is no guarantee of that today.

The newest drivers? DX10.1, Shader Model 4.1, OpenGL 2.1. Now, OpenGL 2.1 supports 2.0, and that is good. But the shader parser is still going to push all that it can.  And it is running on a DX 9.0c, Shader Model 3.0 (first generation card to support SM3.0 and the 1900 replaced a buggy 1800 flagship card) OpenGL 2.0 card. Something in there is not necessarily going to be good, from my experience. Additionally, the 1950 is the first ATI card to support Internal crossfire. So, with revamps from the flagship of the series (and the 1950 being a complete rebuild from the ground up), it doesn't surprise me that there is _some_ sort of issue.

What is most frustrating is the irrational turns of how the issue decides it is going to exhibit itself.

Once I get the cards' I'll know more. And while we will have a patch, and while the patch will include fixed (for completely different reasons) shader files, I do not promise that they _will_ do anything for this issue. I can only hope that they will.

[Nawyria]

I found an issue with the SVas and TerSlash beam sounds, here's the link:

Sound Issue with Terran and Vasudan beams

[General Battuta]

By the way, I've got an ATI Radeon HD 4870 and the new MVPs work beautifully.

[ssmit132]

I wouldn't give for sure that custom ships use custom textures, however. They usually use retail textures. I guess it's easier for a modeller to use a texture the FSU upgrades continuously rather than create an exclusive texture that will be referred to as trash after 2+ years.

I can only imagine what is going to happen to INFR1...fortunately, future INF releases will all be standalone...

That does make sense. But would it be right to assume now that the ones without the 'a' at the end are here to stay?

And, honestly, in Inferno, I would not have noticed that the models reverted back to retail maps unless you pointed it out:

[Jadehawk]

Here is a screen shot I just made using the new vps with the GLSL shaders turned off. As you can see, it's really quite nice.

[Commander Zane]

To be honest that's not the best picture to use, it doesn't show anything up close.

Something I've been wondering, the Pegasus used to have pulsating EM paths where there was blue lines, although as of now I haven't seen that effect anymore, where can I get that effect again?

[Zacam]

To be honest that's not the best picture to use, it doesn't show anything up close.

Something I've been wondering, the Pegasus used to have pulsating EM paths where there was blue lines, although as of now I haven't seen that effect anymore, where can I get that effect again?

The animated glow map was deemed inadequate due to distortion and being of smaller quality than the regular glow map.

And while I personally don't see the point of a stealth ship announcing itself by such an effect, I can admit a certain cool factor.

I'll work up something newer that is more suitable and of an appropriate resolution.

[Vasudan Admiral]

Well, off you go then. Show us when you're done.

[falcon2105]

Hello all,

Just incase you wanted more logs from ppl with that radeon error. I have an x1650 Pro from HIS, windows XP, catalyst 7.2 (Dont ask why, its an AGP card and ati's driver support blows for AGP so i can't play/run any 3D apps on anything but 7.2...woo) fresh install of fs2 and what not since i havent played in about a year. I couldnt run Flames of War or Warzone, but i could start the training missions from the old campaign and play through them w/o problem. Other games with shader model 3 (splinter cell double agent and such) work fine. I used that -no_glsl flag and everythings fine now. If you want me to give you an error log could you please remind me how haha, i've forgotten. And what does no_glsl do, just turn off shaders? And new stars look friggin great.

[Zacam]

Thank you falcon2105.

Post logs here: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,58371.0.html
Disregard the drivers links, yours will do just fine.

How to get a log:

Simply run any FSO nightly build that is fs2_open_3_6_10d-%date%_%svn-ver%.exe Note the D.

Go to %FS Install Dir%\data and open up fs2_open.log. Paste into code tags everything from the begining all the way to:

Code: [Select]

ANI cursorweb with size 24x24 (25.0% wasted)

And that will help immensely. Thank you for participating, while I want to get this working, I am glad that -no_glsl is letting it run for you. And yes, it just turns off the shaders, which are used on displaying the normal maps.

[Charismatic]

Great job guys. Its about time
Ill have to figure out how the hell to replace 3 6 9, with 3 6 10 soon. That will be fun.

[Commander Zane]

Great job guys. Its about time
Ill have to figure out how the hell to replace 3 6 9, with 3 6 10 soon. That will be fun.

I literally slapped MV_Complete into my older MediaVPs folder and that was all I needed to do.

[blowfish]

Not recommended to use the newer vps alongside the older ones.

[Commander Zane]

Probably, but I have yet to find a single problem.

[chief1983]

Augh...don't do that.  Please.  Even if it doesn't seem to cause any trouble, you could just be hurting yourself and not know it.  Put the MV_Complete in a new folder, back up your old one first, whatever.  Just...don't put it in with the old ones.  That's like slapping these guys in the face after they went through all this trouble to make sure the layout worked as optimized as it could be.